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On September 22 2013 22:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:41 MattD wrote:On September 22 2013 21:28 goodCat14 wrote:
I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down. Maybe because there are 1000 things blizzard could do better even if you disregard gameplay mechanics and balancing, and the only updates we get from blizzard is a small patch every 3 months. Blizzards competitors are constantly giving updates on their game and rolling out patches to improve user experience, and the concerns about starcraft dying are not totally unwarranted it's very clear there has been a decent amount of decline. Blizzard seems to just want to carry on this way for the next 2 years until LoTV which is fucking scary for anyone that likes starcraft. Blizzard patches pretty fast = STOP BLIZZARD YOU ARE PATCHING TOO FAST, LET THE METAGAME EVOLVE! Blizzard takes their time to let the metagame evolve = ZOMG BLIZZ, WHY U NO PATCH?
I'm not talking about balance patches only, im talking about anything to make starcraft a better experience.
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I think some people also overestimate just how popular RTS is to begin with. Although SC2 stormed out of the gate, in a large part because its release coincided with the rise of streaming, the genre in general has never been extraordinarily popular. Custom maps have always been more popular than the actual games in Brood War, Warcraft 3, etc. It is no surprise that games based on one of those custom maps are more popular.
If I had to guess, even if SC2 solved all the problems with game diversity (which I myself even brought up, so I acknowledge a bit of hypocrisy here), balance, interesting games, etc, then it still would not jump up drastically in popularity. Granted, it is a problem when even the hardcore fans are starting to grow tired of watching, but I don't think any RTS is going to be able to challenge some of the other more popular eSports just because the genre has always been the most niche of the major genres.
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On September 22 2013 17:56 painkilla wrote:
I'd love to see the concrete data that backs up the claim of SC2 being in decline. The only thing I see that suggest this are the SC2 is dying threads that pop up every other week but we know how TL members love to whine. From my perspective, SC2 tournaments are getting so much better in terms of quality of games/skills, viewership is increasing. Even usually small regional tournaments like DH are getting more stacked than ever. We get to see Flash, Innovation, MMA, Taeja, sOs, Life, Jaedong in the DH Bucharest a few weeks ago ( and I never watch DH in 2012 because the quality is rather low ). And as far as the oversaturation of content concern, that's just your opinion man. If you think there is too much SC2 to watch, just don't watch it too much. For me, I'd rather have more SC2 than less.
Yes, there are glaring design issues with SC2 but Blizzard will most likely solve those when they make SC3. It's not practical to just redesign/rebalance the game at this stage. And you guys are wondering why Blizzard isn't doing any of your suggestions? Maybe the data that they are getting suggest that the game is actually successful at their expectation level hence no drastic changes are needed ? Why are we keep throwing suggestions at Blizzard when we aren't even sure that Blizzard is needing them?
And why the long post where most of your suggested solutions can be shorten to "let's copy everything from MOBA".
The most concrete data is that people expected WCS to be considered for an Olympic sport and Artosis to appear regularly on ESPN as their e-sports specialist by now, with marine splits regularly making the top 10 plays. Idra is supposed to be brought in for commentary like John McEnroe for tennis, because SC2 would certainly be more popular than tennis if only a foreigner won the WCS season finals, right?
At this point, I'm actually wondering if it would be popular to have a pro wrestling e-sports competition where you fix the matches so that some amazing shit happens and Stephano appears from nowhere to beat Innovation and wins the world championship belt. From many of the comments, seems like it. Ironically, it might be as hard to set up fake but amazing situations as to win actual games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 22:35 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 17:56 painkilla wrote:
I'd love to see the concrete data that backs up the claim of SC2 being in decline. The only thing I see that suggest this are the SC2 is dying threads that pop up every other week but we know how TL members love to whine. From my perspective, SC2 tournaments are getting so much better in terms of quality of games/skills, viewership is increasing. Even usually small regional tournaments like DH are getting more stacked than ever. We get to see Flash, Innovation, MMA, Taeja, sOs, Life, Jaedong in the DH Bucharest a few weeks ago ( and I never watch DH in 2012 because the quality is rather low ). And as far as the oversaturation of content concern, that's just your opinion man. If you think there is too much SC2 to watch, just don't watch it too much. For me, I'd rather have more SC2 than less.
Yes, there are glaring design issues with SC2 but Blizzard will most likely solve those when they make SC3. It's not practical to just redesign/rebalance the game at this stage. And you guys are wondering why Blizzard isn't doing any of your suggestions? Maybe the data that they are getting suggest that the game is actually successful at their expectation level hence no drastic changes are needed ? Why are we keep throwing suggestions at Blizzard when we aren't even sure that Blizzard is needing them?
And why the long post where most of your suggested solutions can be shorten to "let's copy everything from MOBA". The most concrete data is that people expected WCS to be considered for an Olympic sport and Artosis to appear regularly on ESPN as their e-sports specialist by now, with marine splits regularly making the top 10 plays. Idra is supposed to be brought in for commentary like John McEnroe for tennis, because SC2 would certainly be more popular than tennis if only a foreigner won the WCS season finals, right? At this point, I'm actually wondering if it would be popular to have a pro wrestling e-sports competition where you fix the matches so that some amazing shit happens and Stephano appears from nowhere to beat Innovation and wins the world championship belt. From many of the comments, seems like it. Ironically, it might be as hard to set up fake but amazing situations as to win actual games.
Actually... oh wait, that's what some people actually want O_o.
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On September 22 2013 22:01 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:41 Spectreman wrote:
New and more cool units. Blizzard is very slow with that. Seems like in Dota2, with the 100 plus units, every month you got changes because the buff of low use units. Is not so easy with SC2, because the balance is more critical. But I feel that months after HoW release the games again go to the same foreseeable structure like in WoL.
I dont think that Blizzard can make a big overhaul for LoV. Maybe is time for the community start to build your own new game. Oh please let me watch that, i would laugh my ass off at a community build game since it would be a trainwreck beyond belief.
That would be a mess but alot of fun too
I've noted a bit of what would be the most op : high-ground advantages, tornados patrolling the middle of the map that kill your units right away, something that decrease the dmgs of your ranged units if they are behind other ranged units, heroes that have spells and items and can boost a certain comp, op tempests that deals as much dmg as a reaver but cost hella more (that would be so cool), op nukes, op real infestation of barracks, gateways etc that can build cheap op units, neutral creeps that gives minerals and gaz and items.
On a side not, having played war 3 a ton I think they should have made sc2 more like it. When I began sc2 I was so disappointed that there were no heroes. A mix of bw and wc3 would have had great success i'm sure.
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What I miss the most regarding battles and fights is the fact that everything dies insanel fast. Compare it for example with wc3 battles take a long period of time to be decided and the possibiltys for micro are insane. I think throuh the giant mass of army units the gamr loses oportunitys to micro
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It's gonna slowly die, then blizzard's gonna come out with mega game changing patch.
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On September 22 2013 22:35 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 17:56 painkilla wrote:
I'd love to see the concrete data that backs up the claim of SC2 being in decline. The only thing I see that suggest this are the SC2 is dying threads that pop up every other week but we know how TL members love to whine. From my perspective, SC2 tournaments are getting so much better in terms of quality of games/skills, viewership is increasing. Even usually small regional tournaments like DH are getting more stacked than ever. We get to see Flash, Innovation, MMA, Taeja, sOs, Life, Jaedong in the DH Bucharest a few weeks ago ( and I never watch DH in 2012 because the quality is rather low ). And as far as the oversaturation of content concern, that's just your opinion man. If you think there is too much SC2 to watch, just don't watch it too much. For me, I'd rather have more SC2 than less.
Yes, there are glaring design issues with SC2 but Blizzard will most likely solve those when they make SC3. It's not practical to just redesign/rebalance the game at this stage. And you guys are wondering why Blizzard isn't doing any of your suggestions? Maybe the data that they are getting suggest that the game is actually successful at their expectation level hence no drastic changes are needed ? Why are we keep throwing suggestions at Blizzard when we aren't even sure that Blizzard is needing them?
And why the long post where most of your suggested solutions can be shorten to "let's copy everything from MOBA". The most concrete data is that people expected WCS to be considered for an Olympic sport and Artosis to appear regularly on ESPN as their e-sports specialist by now, with marine splits regularly making the top 10 plays. Idra is supposed to be brought in for commentary like John McEnroe for tennis, because SC2 would certainly be more popular than tennis if only a foreigner won the WCS season finals, right? At this point, I'm actually wondering if it would be popular to have a pro wrestling e-sports competition where you fix the matches so that some amazing shit happens and Stephano appears from nowhere to beat Innovation and wins the world championship belt. From many of the comments, seems like it. Ironically, it might be as hard to set up fake but amazing situations as to win actual games.
You sort of are just lying just to make your point.Nobody wants rigged matches in sc2.they want to see people play in their own continents and meet a couple times a year in a global competition that is it.A.d the decline number you are talking about are very low viewership numbrs on streams+no foreign players and no foreign viewership.Also someone I saw posted a graph saying sc2 is number 19 on the most played games in korea pcbangs which is very low.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 22:54 Spec wrote:
It's gonna slowly die, then blizzard's gonna come out with mega game changing patch.
Good joke.On September 22 2013 22:46 qiza wrote:
What I miss the most regarding battles and fights is the fact that everything dies insanel fast. Compare it for example with wc3 battles take a long period of time to be decided and the possibiltys for micro are insane. I think throuh the giant mass of army units the gamr loses oportunitys to micro
You do not lose opportunity to micro, it just becomes ridiculously hard, to the point of game working slower than you can micro.
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On September 22 2013 19:45 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 12:39 Footler wrote:
Hmm, the scene is personality driven but obviously just bringing in personalities is not the solution.
I think the game just needs two things:
1) More interesting units.
-I'm not some BW>SC2 guy but I did grow up with this site and watching BW and have switched over full time to watching SC2 but yes SC2 could use some of the more interesting units that BW offered - reaver, defiler, lurker, etc. HotS did a solid job I think but if LotV only matches what HotS did I think it will not be enough. LotV will really need to revolutionize SC2, do drastic things like remove/modify certain staple units like the colossus.
2) Something for the casuals other than pushing them to do ladder
-Look I want people to play and learn the game and keep the ladder active but at the end of the day I would prefer them to just be logging on the game and playing anything they want because then at least they can see the in game news and be informed of the esports scene and possibly get interested enough to watch.
I know for me on BW I was maybe only spending 50% of my playtime on ladder/melee matches, the rest was on stuff like micro arena, BGH/fastest, UMS in general or sometimes just chatting! For whatever reason, I feel like SC2 still greatly struggles to do this and I know Blizzard is trying but work still needs to be done. How do you intend to solve the "critical numbers problem" with your more interesting units? How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized. You seem to be like someone who knows BW, but you also sound afraid of actually looking for problems in SC2 by comparing it to BW. That is sad, but it needs to be done to find the flaws of the new game.
Yes, the critical numbers would be a difficult issue to tackle. However, that is not enough reason to not do something. Like I said, a unit like colossus could be heavily modified or just removed altogether. But to answer your question I am honestly not quite sure but I do think it can and should be done.
Regarding casuals - that is why I talked about UMS and other casual game modes. Ladder can be stressful, especially for someone new. Something about the game is still lacking in accessibility to the more casual/fun side of the game. Something that both BW and WC3 had. I feel like this probably ties into sort of community feel those games also had where as SC2 still feels like a ghost town.
Also, on your last statement towards me. While I did not state any of my own original arguments it is because I partially agree with the OP and his arguments. I was simply giving my own simple response to his post. Both BW and SC2 have exciting moments and like I said I actually only watch SC2 now and haven't tuned into BW in quite a while. I personally love watching and playing SC2 but this does not mean I am blind to what could make the game better and more enjoyable to watch.
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On September 22 2013 22:58 romanianthunder wrote:
they want to see people play in their own continents and meet a couple times a year in a global competition that is it.
Are you sure? Just watch games from BW "foreigners only" tournaments. Low skill. Boring. (I deeply respect non-korean players, but facts are facts).
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On September 22 2013 23:41 Larvator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 22:58 romanianthunder wrote:
they want to see people play in their own continents and meet a couple times a year in a global competition that is it. Are you sure? Just watch games from BW "foreigners only" tournaments. Low skill. Boring. (I deeply respect non-korean players, but facts are facts).
numbers do not lie in sc2.when only koreans are playing numbers go down.when foreigners are playing numbers go up.blizzard should have let the innitial season 1 system and developed it in time.results would have shown by now.and bw had a different culturethan sc2.bw was korea only.sc2 wants to be global.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 23:47 romanianthunder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 23:41 Larvator wrote:On September 22 2013 22:58 romanianthunder wrote:
they want to see people play in their own continents and meet a couple times a year in a global competition that is it. Are you sure? Just watch games from BW "foreigners only" tournaments. Low skill. Boring. (I deeply respect non-korean players, but facts are facts). numbers do not lie in sc2.when only koreans are playing numbers go down.when foreigners are playing numbers go up.blizzard should have let the innitial season 1 system and developed it in time.results would have shown by now.and bw had a different culturethan sc2.bw was korea only.sc2 wants to be global.
Proof please. And no, throwing around data about wcs na does not work. Give me numbers for wcs na 2012 :3
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On September 22 2013 22:24 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
I think some people also overestimate just how popular RTS is to begin with. Although SC2 stormed out of the gate, in a large part because its release coincided with the rise of streaming, the genre in general has never been extraordinarily popular. Custom maps have always been more popular than the actual games in Brood War, Warcraft 3, etc. It is no surprise that games based on one of those custom maps are more popular.
If I had to guess, even if SC2 solved all the problems with game diversity (which I myself even brought up, so I acknowledge a bit of hypocrisy here), balance, interesting games, etc, then it still would not jump up drastically in popularity. Granted, it is a problem when even the hardcore fans are starting to grow tired of watching, but I don't think any RTS is going to be able to challenge some of the other more popular eSports just because the genre has always been the most niche of the major genres.
With all due respect, I disagree with your point of view. While it is true that RTS games in general are not that popular (not anymore, not when you have 10,000 FPS games and all the ARTS games popping up), Blizzard has been able to ride the wave and pretty much dominate the RTS scene any time they came up with a game of that genre. BW was a special case because it died out in the international scene rather quickly and became a total phenomenon in Korea, but WC3 was more popular as a whole (I'm speaking on an international scale here, as RoC and especially TFT were played across several countries as opposed to just Korea for BW) and the game itself remained more popular than the custom games it brought about for a few long years. Granted, a lot of people played WC3 (and BW I'm guessing?) for the custom games, but as they are an intended part of the game itself I see nothing wrong with that.
Now about the topic, and I'm speaking as a complete noob here, but my problem with SC2 is that it's simply just not fun to play. I completely suck at the game and I am able to recognize it is a good game, just not a game that brings me enjoyment when I play it (which is, let's not forget it, the main if not the only purpose of any game). If you take WC3, the game was incredibly fun to play. Most of that was due to the heroes and the more active, less technical-heavy game play. It was heavily centered around micro and there were a whole lot of strategies, but none of them included a level of detail as deep as SC2's. The macro was by far simpler and the multitasking wasn't as omnipresent. It was more accessible, and it was a hell of a lot of fun. I am probably a little biased in favor of WC3, because it is my favorite game of all time and I still miss it to this day, but it just seems to me that SC2 is a lot harsher on casuals than WC3 was.
Again, I could be wrong about this, so feel free to correct me if I am, but it seems to me that in order to really enjoy SC2, you have to commit to improving your game quite a lot and really see what the core of the game is about. Once you've done that, you explore strategies and builds and you have fun with the strategical aspect of the game. Now there is nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. And I think it was Ret who said the game should be advertised for what it is: a technical game with a very deep knowledge that is intended for heavy competitive play, and not really casual gaming. I couldn't agree more, and I think it is a dire mistake to try to make SC2 more casual-friendly when the game itself is not. To me it is clear that SC2 is a fine game, just not a game for me as the kind of fun it offers doesn't attract me. Although I think BNet 2.0 is to blame for SC2's lack of casualness and social interaction. BNet 2.0 just blows for that and doesn't encourage interaction between players at all. But that's a whole other topic. And I'm sure many others feel that way (and mostly former WC3 players haha).
In WC3, the fighting was the focus of most games and battles could go on for 5 minutes or longer, very long exchanges between players were quite common, and that was fun. The game was just way easier to be hooked into as a casual gamer, and it still had the potential to develop into a competitive game, as it did after all. It was quicker to learn, because you just had to learn to fight and micro in battles at first, and then discover the other aspects of the game. Arguably, it is not a game that requires as much skill as SC2 does, or perhaps simply a different "set" of skills. And I think that is completely fine. Why not have two RTS games that attract two different crowds?
In today's market, where you have games such as LoL crushing regular RTS games in popularity, I think it may be necessary to modify the core of RTS games to possibly attract that scene. WC3 did it right but didn't benefit from the media exposure that now exists (streams, social networks, etc.). Blizzard certainly has the means to do that, as they have done it before. And any RTS game made by Blizzard is going to meet a certain success, that I'm sure of.
Nostalgic WC3 player signing out!
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On September 22 2013 23:51 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 23:47 romanianthunder wrote:On September 22 2013 23:41 Larvator wrote:On September 22 2013 22:58 romanianthunder wrote:
they want to see people play in their own continents and meet a couple times a year in a global competition that is it. Are you sure? Just watch games from BW "foreigners only" tournaments. Low skill. Boring. (I deeply respect non-korean players, but facts are facts). numbers do not lie in sc2.when only koreans are playing numbers go down.when foreigners are playing numbers go up.blizzard should have let the innitial season 1 system and developed it in time.results would have shown by now.and bw had a different culturethan sc2.bw was korea only.sc2 wants to be global. Proof please. And no, throwing around data about wcs na does not work. Give me numbers for wcs na 2012 :3
number are the same for wcs na every year:10 viewers in normal stages about 50 k for finals.nothing more nothing less.And your disregard for numbers is staggering.For eu is something like 20k-30k per stage and the last wcs eu final was about 80k(note that the first wcs eu final between stephano and mvp had 120k) and the more koreans that appear in the eu the more the numbers go down,And yes numbers are the only indication of succes especially in an esport
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What's the problem: Broodwar fans who think that the answer can be found by looking backwards
Look, SC2 needs success in the west with western casuals. BW-era chat or bad pathing making for demanding mechanics isn't what SC2 needs. How hard it is going up a ramp didn't have mass appeal in the west then and it won't now. I'm even skeptical that if a pretty BW was released for the first time in Korea today or even 2010 that it would have had its earlier success given the current competition - especially if people actually had to pay for it.
Whatever grows SC2 will have little to do with what appealed to hardcore BW fans.
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On September 23 2013 01:09 Smackzilla wrote:
What's the problem: Broodwar fans who think that the answer can be found by looking backwards
Look, SC2 needs success in the west with western casuals. BW-era chat or bad pathing making for demanding mechanics isn't what SC2 needs. How hard it is going up a ramp didn't have mass appeal in the west then and it won't now. I'm even skeptical that if a pretty BW was released for the first time in Korea today or even 2010 that it would have had its earlier success given the current competition - especially if people actually had to pay for it.
Whatever grows SC2 will have little to do with what appealed to hardcore BW fans.
And this speculation is based on what? On the contrary, though what you're saying is speculation, the reverse of it (SC2 fans who know nothing about history) is equally as bad for the series if how SC2 turned out (terrible terrible damage, less diversity, the state of the protoss in SC2, steroided super economics that are redundant beyond 3 mining bases) in the hands of people without a BW history (Browder and a brand new team) is anything to go by.
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The biggest issue by far with SC2 is the game itself. It has plenty of support, personalities, organisations, and everything, but the only thing holding it back is SC2.
On September 22 2013 22:54 Spec wrote:
It's gonna slowly die, then blizzard's gonna come out with mega game changing patch.
I would prefer this even if there are less viewers/players at the start of the reborn SC2. SC2 as it is now has no longevity, aside from LotV. However, since the expansions are just built on a game that can not last, there will not be continued growth, only a surge then decline.
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On September 22 2013 22:24 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
I think some people also overestimate just how popular RTS is to begin with. Although SC2 stormed out of the gate, in a large part because its release coincided with the rise of streaming, the genre in general has never been extraordinarily popular. Custom maps have always been more popular than the actual games in Brood War, Warcraft 3, etc. It is no surprise that games based on one of those custom maps are more popular.
If I had to guess, even if SC2 solved all the problems with game diversity (which I myself even brought up, so I acknowledge a bit of hypocrisy here), balance, interesting games, etc, then it still would not jump up drastically in popularity. Granted, it is a problem when even the hardcore fans are starting to grow tired of watching, but I don't think any RTS is going to be able to challenge some of the other more popular eSports just because the genre has always been the most niche of the major genres.
I don't believe SC2 is having problems because RTS genre is in crisis, this is theory doesn't have ground to stand on. There are several examples a good game can sustain itself no matter what:
1. Dota 2 is in a harsh competition with LoL. But they don't try to be LoL, they do everything in own way and satisfy own player base. Eventhough they have less viewers/players, they're always growing and look very solid. Heroes of newerth is basically dead, eventhough its MOBA game. My assumption, HoN is just inferior game.
2. WC3 had a very solid scene, not a big one, but it had own fans and delivered epic games. It died because all players and sponsors straight up moved to SC2 believing thats gonna be the biggest esport fish in the world.
So much money is being poured into SC2 and it barely manages to get minimum viewership. And epic games happen in 1 out of 100 games. Others being completely similar to each other.
All in all SC2 needs to improve its gameplay, and by improving I don't mean balance. Units, buildings, ecomomics.... all need major overhaul.
Edit: And also, no personal offense, but I think DK needs to step down from the role of senior multiplayer designer and give it to someone fresh, who has better shot.
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On September 23 2013 01:17 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:09 Smackzilla wrote:
What's the problem: Broodwar fans who think that the answer can be found by looking backwards
Look, SC2 needs success in the west with western casuals. BW-era chat or bad pathing making for demanding mechanics isn't what SC2 needs. How hard it is going up a ramp didn't have mass appeal in the west then and it won't now. I'm even skeptical that if a pretty BW was released for the first time in Korea today or even 2010 that it would have had its earlier success given the current competition - especially if people actually had to pay for it.
Whatever grows SC2 will have little to do with what appealed to hardcore BW fans. And this speculation is based on what? On the contrary, though what you're saying is speculation, the reverse of it (SC2 fans who know nothing about history) is equally as bad for the series if how SC2 turned out (terrible terrible damage, less diversity, the state of the protoss in SC2, steroided super economics that are redundant beyond 3 mining bases) in the hands of people without a BW history (Browder and a brand new team) is anything to go by.
Speculation?
First, its clear that BW was never a big esport in the west. SC2 was orders of magnitude more successful than BW as a western esport. The west went with shooters and even War3.
Second, its just common sense that a casual player can't appreciate the skill it takes to overcome the glitches and bad UI of BW. If those skills aren't immediately obvious to casuals, then how would that improve SC2's mass appeal?
Do you really mean to tell me that SC2 has been surpassed by LoL (and probably DoTA2) because it has easier mechanics than BW?
You *add* to the conversation: high damage, diversity, powerful econ, etc. I'll ask you the same question to those: Are they the reason why SC2 has fallen off since late 2011/early 2012? Diversity is the only one that holds water in my opinion, but #1 that wasn't in the OP and #2 its not like BW *owns* diversity and we need BW to tell us "hey, seeing more builds makes things more entertaining.
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