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On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
This is the reason i watched GOMTV for this seasons OSL. The casters with their "shit talk" ie Tastosis are actually more entertaining than most of the actual games played.
Blizzard had 2 years to correct some of the fundamental flaws with the game but instead we ended up with 1 unit actually worth building in all match ups ( the widow mine), and now that the initial spike of HOTS release has passed the excitement has faded and all is left is the die hards watching the game.
As a spectator SC2 is not that good, with PvT being the pick of the bunch due to the fact that both sides have a multitude of openings available. The "darling" match up of the game ZvT is boring as fuck at the moment and looks stale
At the end of the day its up to Blizzard to try and improve things, or just let the game work itself out. The trouble is that the Mecca of esports is moving away from Starcraft so they may only have a few years left to do what's required because once the current generation of Koreans move on and retire who will replace them
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On August 09 2013 17:40 theking1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Funny conversation between sundance and a fan on twitter
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h
@MLGSundance The problem is you are creating a giant gap in SC2 content out of nowhere. Also this hurts teams and sponsors.
Details
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h
. @JChxn and that's my responsibility how?
Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h
@MLGSundance Because you are in the business of eSports, and potentially causing a crash with this hurts eSports.
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Matt Homeyer @MattEatsMochi 9h
@MLGSundance my question is who felt more evil? Halo or SC community after the drop?
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Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h
. @JChxn I'm still hosting events and producing content.
Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h
@MLGSundance I know but such a rapid change has consequences. Scaling down event by event might be better, then just coming out of nowhere.
Details
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h
. @JChxn not for me and my company. Others can and will step in.
It. Will. Be. Fine.
Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 8h
@MLGSundance This time it will be fine im sure. But when eSport grows to a big scale it will not be ok. Think of the AFC dropping out of nfl
======================================================================================== Muhahhahaha sundance cares about sc2 like i care about the grain crops in jamaica.Actually considering his mindset i am surprised he hasn't replaced sc2 with wot or dota2 since last year.Hell, he should drop lol too and make a farmville and angry birds tournament,
Why the hell should he care about SC2 ? His company is an event organizer, it's not some kind of sport organization. All he cares is what money is he making and which game will bring more money.
About the SC2 dying stuff... Well guys, SC2 is the last game of already dead genre, what do you expect ? Nobody plays RTS anymore, nobody makes good RTSs anymore. The genre is just too hard for the new kids that want to pick a game and start winning almost immediately. In RTS you have to spend days or even weeks playing to even understand what is going on... In moba(or FPS) you don't need to understand what is going on... Just pick a pubstompy hero and after a couple of hours you will start winning stuff( or your allies will just carry you, that still counts as winning)...
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Well, at times like these the sc2 community knows what to do right?
Get on Twitter and obnoxiously spam "save sc2" hashtags.
I believe we can get through this one tweet at a time guys.
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On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:
[quote]
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games. This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,... Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics"
Absolutely agree with you! But it´s not that Sc2 don´t have the potential to be a good spectator sport. I remeber a lot of games where a lot of awesome stuff was happening all over the place. If Blizzard or the game by it self evolve in this direction SC2 will be a great game also for viewers.
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On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:
[quote]
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games. This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,... Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics"
Nice try, but pls, stop coming up with excuses for SC2's decline. BW was very complex and yet it was popular for the masses. Its not because all people in Korea know build orders and strategies. Its because the game was hell of entertainment to watch.
EDIT: Also western people stayed up till late night to watch 240p laggy streams of OSL and MSL.
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meh, I had been complaining about the fun in hots since almost half a year ago.
There is a huge lack in metagame development, TvZ is still 90% the same with the fast 3rd and bio mine. almost no deviation at all.
Back in WoL imba ZvT, at least there were mech appearing, some zerg goes back to muta style and some uses ultras before going into broodlords.
TvP is looking exactly the same too. If you tuned into the game half way, you won't even know if that's hots or wol until you see mothership core i guess.
ZvP, the only hugely improved matchup with lots of different strategies etc is affected by the damn boring swarmhost style.
worst of all, no balance patch at all. Look at LoL, everytime there is a new patch note, people go crazy about it, combine that with new champions and reworks and tweaks and items etc, the game stays fresh and there are still rooms the game can add more, people keep asking for more.
Look at SC2, even the map still looking similar in design. too afraid to break the balance.
Make the game fun first, then balance it is a much better approach imo
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On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:
[quote]
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games.
This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,...Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics"
Nice elitist syndrome. If you paid only a single attention to LoL or DoTA2 (especially DoTA2 since LoL is kind of a dumbed down version of it), you would know that the depth of those games far outsurpass SC2, and even BW. That said, BW was still amazing to watch because it was an immense mechanic challenge for the players. SC2 on the other hand has a pretty stale metagame and a lower skill ceiling for the mechanics, thus explaining why there are no true bonjwas..
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Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2.
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On August 09 2013 18:40 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:
[quote]
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games.
This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,...Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics" Nice elitist syndrome. If you paid only a single attention to LoL or DoTA2 (especially DoTA2 since LoL is kind of a dumbed down version of it), you would know that the depth of those games far outsurpass SC2, and even BW. That said, BW was still amazing to watch because it was an immense mechanic challenge for the players. SC2 on the other hand has a pretty stale metagame and a lower skill ceiling for the mechanics, thus explaining why there are no true bonjwas..
You evidently have never watched the greatest BW players or tried to understand every decision behind their moves if you actually believe this.
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On August 09 2013 18:40 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:
[quote]
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games.
This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,...Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics" Nice elitist syndrome. If you paid only a single attention to LoL or DoTA2 (especially DoTA2 since LoL is kind of a dumbed down version of it), you would know that the depth of those games far outsurpass SC2, and even BW. That said, BW was still amazing to watch because it was an immense mechanic challenge for the players. SC2 on the other hand has a pretty stale metagame and a lower skill ceiling for the mechanics, thus explaining why there are no true bonjwas..
This is NOT about "skill involved". So stop with that "but my game is waaaay more challenging" stuff.
BW was amazing to WATCH because there was action going on. There was visible micro, there was mini battles with few units going on all the time and sometimes all over the place. As a viewer I dont care at all how hard it is to have a 8 units limit or having no automine. As a viewer i want to see action.
BW delivered that. LoL delivers that. Dota2 delivers that.
Sc2 is lacking. This is no question of how complex a game is. Even an extremely difficult game with inhumanly compßlex mechanics can be uttlery boring to watch.
I still dont know where you have the elitist syndrome from, but I switched from SC2 to LoL a long time ago. SC2 has more demanding mechanics (the boring part) while Lol got more demanding strategies, tactics, plays (the fun part) thus making it more spectator friendly. Dont know where you read "ololol Moba so bad and still got more viewers QQ" cause i dint write that.
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On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2.
1) Team games, ffs.
2) WoL free to play.
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On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2.
Not completely true. I think more important than just getting new people to play SC2, is getting people that already play it, to KEEP playing it. The most important thing is that we don't lose players. It's better for us, as a community, to grow slowly and steadily, than to grow quickly, but then have a majority of the players lose interest and go play something else. We need to get people hooked on the game and the competitive scene, because that's what will ultimately keep StarCraft 2 "alive."
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On August 09 2013 18:40 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:14 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:57 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:
[quote]
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time). Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit! And there we have the core problem: Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games.
This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,...Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game". Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics" Nice elitist syndrome. If you paid only a single attention to LoL or DoTA2 (especially DoTA2 since LoL is kind of a dumbed down version of it), you would know that the depth of those games far outsurpass SC2, and even BW. That said, BW was still amazing to watch because it was an immense mechanic challenge for the players. SC2 on the other hand has a pretty stale metagame and a lower skill ceiling for the mechanics, thus explaining why there are no true bonjwas..
lol and dota with the same metagame over and over will never suprass sc2 in difficulty.there was a statistic shown on reddit regarding the items each jungler uses and literraly each jungler in the lcs used the exact same items 90% of the time.and its the same strat time and time again.And i have seen the same teamcomp and item comp in dota2.most dota2 players know 4 heroes max and 3 item builds which they repeat.in sc2 builds differe radically.so do styles.
and i am not making things up regarding the junglers.
http://imgur.com/9DeKkSb
this is how advanced moba meta is right now.and i do not have time to search dota2 stats regarding picks and itemizations
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On August 09 2013 17:43 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 17:20 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 17:11 NarutO wrote:On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn? Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations. There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind. He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong. As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over. No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
Well while that might be related to me kinda moving away from being excited about esports and being an avid watcher of events in general I do not think that talking in that kind of absolutes really is the one and only truth. watched a decent bit of ti3 and while there were exciting matches I also picked up seemingly endless jabbering about how x teams draft was so good and equally endless talks about item choices and god knows what which is really quite similar to what starcraft casters do but have less material to work with due to obvious differences of the titles.
So while there is surely something to the argument I don't really feel it's the entire story.
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On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2.
To make more people play, some things need to be changed such as the custom map system. Therefore, the discussions you deny are actually meaningful to help SC2 grow.
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So what title is so grand that it boots SC2 off the circuit? World of Tanks?!?!?!?
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On August 09 2013 18:58 Penguinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2. Not completely true. I think more important than just getting new people to play SC2, is getting people that already play it, to KEEP playing it. The most important thing is that we don't lose players. It's better for us, as a community, to grow slowly and steadily, than to grow quickly, but then have a majority of the players lose interest and go play something else. We need to get people hooked on the game and the competitive scene, because that's what will ultimately keep StarCraft 2 "alive."
When I said more people need to play the game, did I make some distinction between new players or just keeping old players?
I said more people need to play the game.
As long as a lot of people play the game, everything else can be dealt with. If 20 people are playing the game, nothing else matters. The game is dead.
Blizzard is behind the times with how they "sell" their games (down to a design level) and it's killing all their franchises. WoW is bleeding subscribers. D3 is improving slowly but who cares when nobody plays it anymore? People thought SC2 was doing better but they're all in the same sinking ship. Blizzard forgot somewhere a long the road that the most important thing is just making a game people want to play 24 hours a day. Everything else depends on that.
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On August 09 2013 19:03 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2. To make more people play, some things need to be changed such as the custom map system. Therefore, the discussions you deny are actually meaningful to help SC2 grow.
The discussions that I say are useless are the ones that are talking about visible micro and related bull shit. I am saying all this talk about how to increase viewability and viewership as the main points are totally pointless because it's akin to saying the way to make a good game is to make the graphics better. They are talking about shallow and insignificant aspects of the problem and forgetting the substance.
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On August 09 2013 19:10 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 19:03 darkness wrote:On August 09 2013 18:49 Brian333 wrote:
Topics like this eventually become bad because people start discussing how to save SC2 and everybody just wastes their time on irrelevant points.
The main point and the only point that matters is that more people need to play SC2. All discussion should be about how to get more people playing SC2. To make more people play, some things need to be changed such as the custom map system. Therefore, the discussions you deny are actually meaningful to help SC2 grow. The discussions that I say are useless are the ones that are talking about visible micro and related bull shit. I am saying all this talk about how to increase viewability and viewership as the main points are totally pointless because it's akin to saying the way to make a good game is to make the graphics better. They are talking about shallow and insignificant aspects of the problem and forgetting the substance.
You should have worded it better. To be succesful, a game needs large playbase. To aquire large playerbase, gameplay needs to be fun and interesting. Therefore we need to improve gameplay of SC2.
Your post... to put it bluntly, sounded like, no matter how bad sc2 is we need to force more people to play it in order to succeed.
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Wait a second, MLG pays Blizzard to host SC2? That's just ridiculous.
Ignoring gameplay, strategy, players, etc, its shit like that's killing the SC2 scene. From the very beginning with the region locking bullshit and the 2 expansion plan from Blizzard its obvious that they are out there to make nothing but money. In stark contrast Dota2 is free and valve host one of the biggest esports tournaments so far with their own money. They also strongly support community generated content and with the future implementation of custom maps Dota2 will just get bigger, and its all free.
I feel like Blizzard or maybe Activision dropped the ball, and with free to play being a major thing now, SC2 just can't adapt.
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EPT
