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On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eUaZdrp.png) Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs.
Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder".
Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base.
Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..).
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On August 09 2013 15:45 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs. Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder". Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base. Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..).
Ghost HT duels were the worst man, might of looked cool for a second, but was so coin flippy and the whole battle was all relative on one spell.......... Ugh dont miss those days.
But your right imagine, if that one coin flip battle didnt decide it? Game would be more exciting, but instead it like oh missed ability GG.
I have had some amazing come backs on LoL and damn that feeling is so sick.
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but if you think about it closely mlg was like 3 times a year.not really a big deal anymore.the gaming world once it grows will become more independent and will not depend on big gathering such as mlgs and dremhacks to showcase their game.probably in the next generation of esports, all big esports will have independent leagues such as lcs and wcs running independently in their own studios without any intermediaries like mlg,dremhack etc.lol is already doing that by eliminating international tournaments and making them all just stages in the lcs.wcs is preety much independent now,valve it sdoing its own thing even without mlg so its not a surprise.
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On August 09 2013 15:53 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:45 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs. Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder". Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base. Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..). Ghost HT duels were the worst man, might of looked cool for a second, but was so coin flippy and the whole battle was all relative on one spell.......... Ugh dont miss those days.
I do mean from a spectator point of view. of course back then I was in the protoss side of things, so things were more forgiving. Being a Terran before I ultimately left the game, I do remember not watching my ball for a second and a half, then come back and realized I lost 40 supply because of one or two storms.. how fun is that?
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On August 09 2013 15:53 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:45 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs. Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder". Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base. Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..). Ghost HT duels were the worst man, might of looked cool for a second, but was so coin flippy and the whole battle was all relative on one spell.......... Ugh dont miss those days. But your right imagine, if that one coin flip battle didnt decide it? Game would be more exciting, but instead it like oh missed ability GG. I have had some amazing come backs on LoL and damn that feeling is so sick.
I don't think you understand the concept of a coin flip. HT vs Ghost is intense and is all about control, precision and positioning with very little 'luck'. If you get all your temps emp'd or your ghosts miss their emp's it's because you played worse, not because you're unlucky. Your understanding of PvT seems very low level/biased. I've seen insane comebacks from both sides based on control and decisionmaking - not coin flips. Anyway, I hope you're having fun, LoL's probably where you belong.
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On August 09 2013 16:03 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:53 XXXSmOke wrote:On August 09 2013 15:45 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs. Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder". Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base. Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..). Ghost HT duels were the worst man, might of looked cool for a second, but was so coin flippy and the whole battle was all relative on one spell.......... Ugh dont miss those days. But your right imagine, if that one coin flip battle didnt decide it? Game would be more exciting, but instead it like oh missed ability GG. I have had some amazing come backs on LoL and damn that feeling is so sick. I don't think you understand the concept of a coin flip. HT vs Ghost is intense and is all about control, precision and positioning with very little 'luck'. If you get all your temps emp'd or your ghosts miss their emp's it's because you played worse, not because you're unlucky. Your understanding of PvT seems very low level/biased. I've seen insane comebacks from both sides based on control and decisionmaking - not coin flips. Anyway, I hope you're having fun, LoL's probably where you belong.
What I meant to say by Coin flip was that if you lost that one spell abilty it was instant GG for other side, which was very horrible game design, horrible for the player/horrible for the spectator so I guess that was a bad word to use.
Sure you have seen a come back every once in a while, but when it happens 1/50 games, its so rare that it does't matter. Thats why I was agreeing with Patate, these other games are doing so well, because you have to hit that perfect show a few times to win the game, making a more back and forth crazy match compared to the bull shit we get with SC2's anti-climatic late game.
Yea I belong in LoL nice one...
............
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noticing a lot of people blaming David Kim and Browder and etc, you guys need to realize they are doing the best they can with what they got, it's kind of been hinted at that the main core of Blizzard doesn't see ESports as valuable thus they don't generate a lot of their resources towards to it. Blizzard by no means is doing what I would consider an acceptable job considering their battle net system is worse than a 10 year old one, however don't blame the people on the forefront as their is more going on in the background that we don't get to see.
I don't think the problem is the game itself, I think it's exciting but at the same time very challenging which is where the problem occurs. Dumbing down the game to cater to casuals imo is the wrong way to go, they need to focus on the UMS scene, team games, and improve the user interface substantially. If you can draw some more people in from that I have no doubt they'd be willing to tune in to watch some games of Starcraft.
I'm guessing Blizzard might of not been paying MLG money which thus resulted in them dropping it, if that is the case then I can derive pride from them choosing not to go down the Riot model of throwing money at a bunch of people
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On August 09 2013 15:45 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Well there's your problem.. the game should encourage comebacks and not snowballs. Balancing elements: in LoL, if you have a killing spree and are killed, you are worth more gold than the "feeder". Balancing elements (unplanned, but still): in BW, moving a big army was difficult, therefore you couldnt just a-move your winning army inside an enemy's base. Then there are the eye candy elements. For once, lategame SC2 TvP had some of that.. if it got to the ghost-HT duels. Reaver drops were otherwise the absolute best eye candy for viewers. LoL has some great teamfights, both for the new guy watching, than for the "expert" who can pay a specific attention to the peelers, the bruisers, the adc movement, the cc ultimates (crescendo, tidal wave, etc..).
I made a comment on a page earlier. i see exactly the same problem. The thing is that saying that every game is boring and anticlimactic isn´t true. There are some games out there which are really exciting. Funny enough interesting games happens more often when both players are not playing perfectly!
My comment on the Theme: + Show Spoiler +.........I love SC2 it´s a great game. It´s challenging and hard to play. Hands down best RTS out there. I also love to watch SC2 it´s interesting to see the Metagame unfold in a best of 3 or best of 5 series. BUT there are really few games where i feel truly truly excited through out the hole game. Games in which i can´t believe what is happening on the screen where i really feel that i will never reach that skill. For sure i never will reach the skill but it is about the feeling while watching. I think SC2 is not the best spectator sport. The action is concentrated on very few moments through out the game and they end most likely with a gg on on side. I know what was leading to the gg because i watch a fuck ton of sc2 but if i am not that kind of a fan i will not know what was leading to that gg! Don´t get me wrong there are also a lot of very intense games with back and forward action - see the grubby vs. hasu obs game. But that games are rare and kind of match up specific.
The last few days i was watching also a bit of TI3 and i know nothing about this game besides the very Basics. I can´t even see which spell is coming from which hero or what the spell does but i see the green Bars and see a handful of Heros dying. This is happening over 30 or 40 minutes with back and forward action, and i can feel the excitement. Watched the game from Teamliquid a few minutes ago. I am still on adrenalin. Something very rare when i watch SC2.
So i think SC2 is sometimes not as exciting to watch then other games. Is this important? Kind of! Is SC2 a bad game? Of course not! There are a lot of Sports out there not so exciting to watch and there are still played professionally.
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Good job MLG!!! SC2 deserves to fkin die, because that is what blizzard deseves by fkin up this game so hard. And all the people in esports that talk good about sc2 because you know they get a good salary out of this fkin scene (hey sc2 is not that bad i can make a living out of it -> incontrol, artosis, others) can go to hell. Cause it ain't right to support a fkin company that ruined a game so hard, and it ain't right to try to grow a scene based on a fked up game. Blizzard deserves all the bashing in the world so lets do that cause i would be so happy to see them dead. Die you fkin incompetents, morones and politicians of esports ........
JUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User was warned for this post
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Arcade needs to be more accessible for there to be any casuals in SC2, it's the hardest game to not take breaks from, since one week of not playing means you'll do bad on the ladder and you'll hate yourself for playing worse, even though it totally makes sense.
And we probably need to stop talking about death of sc2 all the time and about how sucky it is, when it clearly isn't.
Also we shouldn't bring up imbalance all the time and discredit the guys that win tournaments.
The places where we excell in comparison to the other esports is that it is a lot more demanding and hard game and almost perfect balance, even with so many variables put into it. So whatever we do to hamper these few things where we excell more than the other sports is pretty bad.
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On August 09 2013 16:37 vaughn87 wrote:
Good job MLG!!! SC2 deserves to fkin die, because that is what blizzard deseves by fkin up this game so hard. And all the people in esports that talk good about sc2 because you know they get a good salary out of this fkin scene (hey sc2 is not that bad i can make a living out of it -> incontrol, artosis, others) can go to hell. Cause it ain't right to support a fkin company that ruined a game so hard, and it ain't right to try to grow a scene based on a fked up game. Blizzard deserves all the bashing in the world so lets do that cause i would be so happy to see them dead. Die you fkin incompetents, morones and politicians of esports ........
JUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please don't reproduce.
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On August 09 2013 16:53 ejozl wrote:
Arcade needs to be more accessible for there to be any casuals in SC2, it's the hardest game to not take breaks from, since one week of not playing means you'll do bad on the ladder and you'll hate yourself for playing worse, even though it totally makes sense.
And we probably need to stop talking about death of sc2 all the time and about how sucky it is, when it clearly isn't.
Also we shouldn't bring up imbalance all the time and discredit the guys that win tournaments.
The places where we excell in comparison to the other esports is that it is a lot more demanding and hard game and almost perfect balance, even with so many variables put into it. So whatever we do to hamper these few things where we excell more than the other sports is pretty bad.
Quite the angry young man ...
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On August 09 2013 16:53 ejozl wrote:
Arcade needs to be more accessible for there to be any casuals in SC2, it's the hardest game to not take breaks from, since one week of not playing means you'll do bad on the ladder and you'll hate yourself for playing worse, even though it totally makes sense.
Isn't it accessible enough already?
On August 09 2013 16:53 ejozl wrote:
And we probably need to stop talking about death of sc2 all the time and about how sucky it is, when it clearly isn't.
Also we shouldn't bring up imbalance all the time and discredit the guys that win tournaments.
You mean we should keep silent and pretend everything is fine.
On August 09 2013 16:53 ejozl wrote:
The places where we excell in comparison to the other esports is that it is a lot more demanding and hard game and almost perfect balance, even with so many variables put into it. So whatever we do to hamper these few things where we excell more than the other sports is pretty bad.
Oh, good old "starcraft is for hardcore" argument. We are proud that our game is the most complex, difficult, frustrating, snowballish and coinflippy because its not for pussies and any little mistake should be instant defeat.
/sarcasm off. people, its time get out of that illusionary world. SC2 is a G A M E.
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On August 09 2013 17:01 scBaldwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 16:37 vaughn87 wrote:
Good job MLG!!! SC2 deserves to fkin die, because that is what blizzard deseves by fkin up this game so hard. And all the people in esports that talk good about sc2 because you know they get a good salary out of this fkin scene (hey sc2 is not that bad i can make a living out of it -> incontrol, artosis, others) can go to hell. Cause it ain't right to support a fkin company that ruined a game so hard, and it ain't right to try to grow a scene based on a fked up game. Blizzard deserves all the bashing in the world so lets do that cause i would be so happy to see them dead. Die you fkin incompetents, morones and politicians of esports ........
JUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please don't reproduce.
Your mother is in danger!
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On August 09 2013 15:43 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:34 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 15:23 Gonzo103 wrote:On August 09 2013 15:16 Patate wrote:On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 09 2013 14:47 saddaromma wrote:On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote:Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs. And remember: action is always better than noaction Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument. Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me. Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development). is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on? If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok. DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies. WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm. You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty. I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up. It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight. I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen. Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch. Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
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It wouldn't be surprising if MLG did eventually drop SC2, given all the factors that go into what games they choose to present. There isn't without a huge audience a lot of upside for them with how blizzard is currently running things.
That said it wouldn't be the death of SC2 if MLG or any other league for that matter dropped SC2. The only way it dies is if 100% of all tournaments ceased to carry it. Which isn't likely to happen unless some other developer comes along and makes an RTS game that somehow just blows SC2 out of the water.
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Simple math.
Blizzard demands payment if you want to host their game. They bring a medicore viewer count.
Riot supports you if you host their game. They bring a high viewer count.
Same with Dota.
If they find a new game which brings viewers and is run by a company which actually gives you money instead of taking it from you, its no hard choice which game has to go.
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On August 09 2013 16:37 vaughn87 wrote:
Good job MLG!!! SC2 deserves to fkin die, because that is what blizzard deseves by fkin up this game so hard. And all the people in esports that talk good about sc2 because you know they get a good salary out of this fkin scene (hey sc2 is not that bad i can make a living out of it -> incontrol, artosis, others) can go to hell. Cause it ain't right to support a fkin company that ruined a game so hard, and it ain't right to try to grow a scene based on a fked up game. Blizzard deserves all the bashing in the world so lets do that cause i would be so happy to see them dead. Die you fkin incompetents, morones and politicians of esports ........
JUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holly..... why so angry you boy! Behave please. I hope your anger comes from passion and Love for a game you care about :D but maybe i am wrong and you are only a very angry little boy!
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On August 09 2013 17:15 Charon1979 wrote:
Simple math.
Blizzard demands payment if you want to host their game. They bring a medicore viewer count.
Riot supports you if you host their game. They bring a high viewer count.
Same with Dota.
If they find a new game which brings viewers and is run by a company which actually gives you money instead of taking it from you, its no hard choice which game has to go.
One thing to note is that its likely Blizz does not see itself in competition with MOBA and instead with other RTS of which only the Relic ones have major semi-competitive scenes. LoL and DOTA compete with each other for viewers so paying for tourneys makes a lot more sense.
Meh, whatever. It looks like Sundance is off the internet for a while so we won't get another follow up until next weekish.
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EPT
