On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote: Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs.
And remember: action is always better than noaction
Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument.
Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me.
Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
On August 09 2013 17:13 Nerski wrote: It wouldn't be surprising if MLG did eventually drop SC2, given all the factors that go into what games they choose to present. There isn't without a huge audience a lot of upside for them with how blizzard is currently running things.
That said it wouldn't be the death of SC2 if MLG or any other league for that matter dropped SC2. The only way it dies is if 100% of all tournaments ceased to carry it. Which isn't likely to happen unless some other developer comes along and makes an RTS game that somehow just blows SC2 out of the water.
Depends on how you define a game's death. Its different from game to game. If SC2 gonna have same scene as Tekken or if premier tournaments generate below 30k viewers, then its dead. I hope you not gonna advocate that 10k viewers means scene is alive.
On August 09 2013 14:22 saddaromma wrote: Picture tells the tales, even if you omit dota 2 due to international. SC2 has low entertainment value, therefore fewer viewers and less sponsors. Its only up to Blizzard if they want the game to be succesful. They have to do something asap. 1. Fire Dustin Browder and David Kim. 2. Hire new team and redesign SC2's multiplayer. The best candidates are people who make best maps and who have better understanding of what community/viewer needs.
And remember: action is always better than noaction
Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument.
Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me.
Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
On August 09 2013 17:15 Charon1979 wrote: Simple math. Blizzard demands payment if you want to host their game. They bring a medicore viewer count. Riot supports you if you host their game. They bring a high viewer count. Same with Dota. If they find a new game which brings viewers and is run by a company which actually gives you money instead of taking it from you, its no hard choice which game has to go.
One thing to note is that its likely Blizz does not see itself in competition with MOBA and instead with other RTS of which only the Relic ones have major semi-competitive scenes. LoL and DOTA compete with each other for viewers so paying for tourneys makes a lot more sense.
Meh, whatever. It looks like Sundance is off the internet for a while so we won't get another follow up until next weekish.
And there is a grave mistake. Blizzard IS in competition with MOBA. A viewer can just watch one thing at once. There are many players/viewers which play BOTH games. And watch SC2 streams and LoL streams. There are many people who play/stream both (Sheth duoqueueing with Destiny in LoL, Catz playing Dota2,...) but a viewer can only view ONE thing. Yes there is such a thing as a "pure RTS audience" but the average "nerd" likes video games and if he watches a video game event he watches the game he wants to see most, even if he plays all of them. Its not like physical sport where you are either a "tennis guy" or a "soccer type" or even a "hockey bro" your audience is most likely a "gamer dude" who likes to watch any of them. Hell, i even watch Day Z Streams if i cant find a LoL stream which i can enjoy.
On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote: [quote]
Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument.
Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me.
Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
You always take it wrong way Naruto. He is complaining about how TvZ is played. Not the imbalance. Please stop your "24/7 terran defender mode".
As a matter of fact Sjow defeated Life with same style. EDIT: I hope you're not gonna claim sjow has godlike skills, with all due respect.
On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote: [quote]
Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument.
Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me.
Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
Yeah its always more than someone admits. Especially in Threads like this. But in this case it's not about special tactical insights its more about what is transferred to the viewer. And in many games, even its exaggerated, it looks like described above. I am not arguing against you. I know that there is more about the match ups. Try to watch a match not as a pro-gamer more like average Joe, and you will notice that there are some flaws in how a match plays out from a viewer perspective.
Funny conversation between sundance and a fan on twitter
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h @MLGSundance The problem is you are creating a giant gap in SC2 content out of nowhere. Also this hurts teams and sponsors. Details
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h . @JChxn and that's my responsibility how? Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h @MLGSundance Because you are in the business of eSports, and potentially causing a crash with this hurts eSports. Details
Matt Homeyer @MattEatsMochi 9h @MLGSundance my question is who felt more evil? Halo or SC community after the drop? Details Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h . @JChxn I'm still hosting events and producing content. Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 9h @MLGSundance I know but such a rapid change has consequences. Scaling down event by event might be better, then just coming out of nowhere. Details
Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance 9h . @JChxn not for me and my company. Others can and will step in.
It. Will. Be. Fine. Details
Jonathan Chandonait @JChxn 8h @MLGSundance This time it will be fine im sure. But when eSport grows to a big scale it will not be ok. Think of the AFC dropping out of nfl ======================================================================================== Muhahhahaha sundance cares about sc2 like i care about the grain crops in jamaica.Actually considering his mindset i am surprised he hasn't replaced sc2 with wot or dota2 since last year.Hell, he should drop lol too and make a farmville and angry birds tournament,
On August 09 2013 14:35 Erik.TheRed wrote: [quote]
Holy fuck when will these crap-quality posts stop coming in? You realize that there are probably a LOT of SC2 fans watching TI3 right now? There isn't ANY SC2 tournament going on and not a ton of big people streaming either. Please try and use a little common sense before posting a random screenshot and using it as the backbone of your ludicrous argument.
Also... Low entertainment value? Did you watch any of WCS this week? There were a bunch of great games, why don't you watch Grubby vs Hasuobs if you don't believe me.
Edit: Of course SC2 isn't a perfect game, but how does demanding that Dustin Browder and David Kim get fired seem like a reasonable/realistic argument and does it really solve any of the current problems? Blizzard is more than just 2 people and AFAIK the game balance is doing fairly well (Kim's main job) and the game design is still being tweaked and developed for the future (LOTV is in development).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over.
No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over.
No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit!
On August 09 2013 17:15 Charon1979 wrote: Simple math. Blizzard demands payment if you want to host their game. They bring a medicore viewer count. Riot supports you if you host their game. They bring a high viewer count. Same with Dota. If they find a new game which brings viewers and is run by a company which actually gives you money instead of taking it from you, its no hard choice which game has to go.
Valve won't give you a dimme to play their game. They don't ask you money either tho.
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
You always take it wrong way Naruto. He is complaining about how TvZ is played. Not the imbalance. Please stop your "24/7 terran defender mode".
As a matter of fact Sjow defeated Life with same style. EDIT: I hope you're not gonna claim sjow has godlike skills, with all due respect.
Sorry to say, but 'If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. ' isn't argueing about wether you like the match up or not, but blatantly balance whining. I don't need to be 'defender Terran mode' to point out such a thing.
is that what wanted from sc2 when it was announced, pathetic 4k viewers when no tournaments are going on?
If players are retiring, teams disbanding, viewership is falling and tournaments are shutting down you can get general idea that scene is declining. Or you can keep on lying to yourself that everything is ok.
DB and DK did a pretty bad job, remember bl/infestors, warhounds, helbats? All their changes are temporal bandages until the game is dumbed down to one-dimensional strategies.
WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over.
No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
Sorry but..? That is not how TvZ currently is and to be frank thats how TvZ never was. People are complaining that at the very top level (INnoVation I dare to say) Zerg has no option and simply slowly dies. While I would already argue with that part, I do especially with how you worded it. Terran vs Zerg is one of the most action packed match ups and if its not for the parade push that isn't really sustainable by anyone other than INnoVation (even though mines are at concern) its about dropping and multiple engagements before you know a winner.
Problematic aspects of the match up right now is that its volatile. Engagements either go into Terrans favor if he gets mine connects or he simply gets crushed when he does not. Thats the part the Zergs don't like. Mines are unreliable and frankly speaking I would love to have marine/tank back, but with the current tank you will never get it back.
I'tll be quite a blow for esports if MLG falls away from SC2. I hope even if at worst they miss this year (perhaps lack of funding or just want to support another title) that they return next year with SC2 @ MLG
On August 09 2013 18:08 v0rtex wrote: I'tll be quite a blow for esports if MLG falls away from SC2. I hope even if at worst they miss this year (perhaps lack of funding or just want to support another title) that they return next year with SC2 @ MLG
yeah but if they replace sc2 with dota2 or wot and after a period of time they would want sc2 back they would have to drop dota2 or wot which will cause a shitstorm with those communities,one way or another a shitstorm is approaching.although i have doubts that they can convince top dota2 teams to come to the usa 3 times a year to play in mlg.also mlg na hours are literally impossible for european and chinesse viewers where most dota2 viewership is.
MLG fucked up WCS, brought drama en masse to Starcraft 2... and while all that, sometimes good tournaments. So, really their CEO is a douche and I couldn't care less, as he said. Others will step in and will do it better (because you cant do worse).
On August 09 2013 14:50 packrat386 wrote: [quote] WCS is huge, plenty of players still making some money streaming, lots of other content. I don't see any cause for alarm.
You sir are in denial. As I'm writting this, the biggest featured sc2 streamer gets less than 1k viewer ( dragon at 955). The biggest LoL streamer atm is TSM's mid laner with almost 8000 viewers. This is considerably low, especially since TI3 is going on, which is a moba (LoL's direct competition).Most of the time, you will see Phantomlord, or Dyrus, or Wingsofdeathx with around 20k viewers. Every weekend (friday-saturday-sunday) LCS EU and then LCS NA get up to 130k viewers.. EVERY DAY THAT THEY'RE ON. That is to say just how much sc2 streams are empty.
I hear people talking about maps.. truth of the matter is, maps barely make a difference in this game. Considering a 200 food army can get through a tiny passage just as fast as they can move on an open field, the only aspect of the map that is important is the rush distance, and the expands set-up.
It will take a lot more than that to actually fix the game and make it watchable. First of all, the macro part of the game is just too damn fast: in 10 blizzard minutes, a zerg gets maxed out... where does that leave time for small engagements and clever harassments (corsair killing overlords in BW, for example)? Then the armies move just too damn well: it is just so easy to push an advantage to a win. Take LoL for example ( i don't know DoTA2 enough but I do know its even more pronounced than in LoL), even if you Ace the enemy team in the early to mid game, the best advantage you can get (considering their nexus are not open to be destroyed), is 1 or 2 turrets, maybe a baron buff, or their blue-red buffs. Yes you get gold advantage, yes you get some free farm, but the game is not over for the enemy team.. comebacks happen very often. In BW, a battle win didn't mean a game win, it meant that you could destroy an expand, or secure another base (and base income saturation was better done too, but let's not go there). In SC2, if you win a fight, you can almost certainly snowball it into a win. There is something fundamentally wrong in a strategy game when a 20 minutes game is decided in a 30 seconds fight.
I remeber a lot of games where your statment is true on, but i also know a lot of games where it´s not true! There are a lot of games with back and forward action over a long period of time. They might be rare but they can happen.
Thats the problem, its rare, I'm not in denial, I admit that there some exceptionally good games in SC2 (Nestea vs sC). But if we want sc2 to be succesful, good games should happen far more often. PvP is so far only matchup I like to watch.
Any mu with Zerg in it sucks anymore. If it isn't an all-in vT, then it's just the Z slowly dying to M/M/M/WM, unless the T-player is vastly inferior. Yeah those M/M/M/WM v. Muta/Ling/Bane engagements can get pretty tense, but anymore it seems inevitable that the Z will eventually fold. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor balls are boring as shit. And don't even get me started on Swarm Hosts -.-.zZ
Really you are just back from a ban and you instantly whine again? Do you ever learn?
Maybe there is some whine in his post! But he is not completely wrong. I really like the TvZ match up because of all the action going on. I play Terran and so i am Biased but in most cases it´s really like Zerg is defending defending defending untill Terran wins or Zerg is playing a roch/bling all in at various timmings and the game is over after one fight. No whine here only some observations.
There is a lot more to Terran vs Zerg than he wants to admit. Besides INnoVation there is no Terran that looks untouchable in his parade push and it really just takes one bad engagement for Terran to be as behind as Zerg if he takes a bad engagement. Its a volatile match up and mines are by no means reliable. It happens that there are good shots (targetted or not) but as a matter of fact a Zerg can work on minimizing or negating mine shots. Its not easy, but neither is splitting and/or multidrops while macro'ing behind.
He makes it sound like Terran goes 1a with his army, presses burrow and the magic happens which simply is not the case. He makes it sound like Biomine is Broodlord/Infestor of Terran and our winrate through whole Starcraft 2 appears to be 95% and Terrans rise on all levels which is, once again, completely wrong.
As a player? Yes. As a viewer? No. Thats no question of "how hard is it for race X". The Question is "how interesting is it for a viewer?" When i watch SC2 i see the following. Game begins there is a little scoutworker micro going on, maybe 2 or 3 units poke each other (fun part) then the game translates into a macro fest (maybe interrupted by a drop) (boooooooring) after that we got 2 maxed out armies just sitting there and daning back and forth without ever fighting. (already asleep) Suddenly a fight occurs (one player didnt pay attention or was cought in a bad spot) we see 10 seconds of fighting and the game is basically over.
No matter how much skill is involved, this is what it looks like to the average viewer. And this is the reason why viewers switching to MOBA. There is action all the time all over the map which is way more spectator friendly (and commentator friendly for that part.. nothing is more hinting at the boring parts as when commentators have to tell "funny" stories because there is nothing happening in the game for a long time).
Kind of understand you point. Even i (i am a huge sc2 fan boy) watched dota over the past few days and i was excited. But maybe sc2 is the wrong e-sport for you and you are not interested in the details behind the builds or the metagame. SC2 is for sure not as spectator friendly than dota 2 or lol but there is more behind the games then you admit!
And there we have the core problem:
Obviously many ppl realized that SC2 ist the "wrong" eSport for them. Resultin in less viewers, resulting in less income, resulting in SC2 getting dropped in favor of moe viewer generating games. This is no "SC2 is bad" post but its like comparing chess on television to soccer on television. One of them is mentally really challenging but from a spectator pov really boring (a few hardcore chess fans aside) so soccer will always bring more viewers which leads to more tournaments, advertising, price money, salyary,...
Viewers dont care whats "behind" the game. Viewers care what they SEE. If you watch a game of soccer you watch the ball and ppl interacting with the ball. You dont care about how long and hard they trained to get that endurance, you care about passes, dribblings, defense and offense but rarely about how the shoes are affecting their runspeed, how this kind of grass affects the ball,... There are always more behind a game. Its just a viewer doesnt care about "behind". An average viewer doesnt care about "superior macro" because he had 2 workers more in a 20 minute game, an average viewer cares about that 5 Marines who killed 20 zerglings by godlike micro (even if it wasnt that hard for the executing player). Viewers are more "visible micro" orientated then "looking behind the game".
Even in Lol the average viewer doesnt care about what items did he buy, or "oh wow he got 12 Cs more then his opponent". these are huge things if you look at them in detail but to an average viewer this does not matter at all. All that matters is the "micro action" going on across the map in multiple locations und SC2 "evolved" away from visible action to "invisible mechanics"
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eUaZdrp.png)
