ViOLet Visa Status: We regret to announce that viOLet has was unable to obtain a visa to compete in the offline portion of WCS America Season 2 in the round of 16. His opponents will receive walkovers in Group A. We know all viOLet and WCS fans were looking forward to those matches, and regret that we can not bring them to you.
Given the large number of visa issues that have confronted players in WCS America over the first 2 seasons, we will be re-examining our policy regarding visas going into 2013 Season 3 and 2014 WCS. We will strive for a fair system that ensures the integrity of WCS tournaments, while we allow as many to compete as possible.
Previous statement from Violet's manager on the lack of Visa for Season 1:
Hi guys viOLet's manager here, long story short when you spend too much time in the U.S. in the prior year, getting a VISA can be difficult.
Professional gaming is getting there but it isn't exactly a recognized profession with embassy officials. We are working with Blizzard and MLG to resolve this issue and he should be back over to the U.S. in early June. The U.S. Embassy is extremely strict regarding matters like this and we don't want to do anything that would jeopardize obtaining the correct VISA and allowing him to stay in the U.S. more permanently.
viOLet will be tweeting a statement regarding this later today. Most of all we want to apologize to the fans who support him. If your an avid follower of viOLet you know how much he loves the U.S. and wants nothing more to come back and be able to stay indefinitely.
Also to note viOLet has not been back in the U.S. since the NASL S4 finals that he placed 2nd in back in December of 2012.
Something must have gone terribly wrong, seeing as It's not June but in fact August and he still cannot return to the US.
@_@;; I feel bad for him... but at the same time I also feel bad for the competition... I feel like this should be prevented before hand.. just a free walkover for someone so deep in the tournament.. Poor Violet D:
How does this keep happening? Sucks that it has to be Violet again, having missed last season too. He's missing out on a chance at a good chunk of cash, and another chance at the global finals. :/ A damn shame.
On August 04 2013 18:08 VieuxSinge wrote: How come he is the only Korean with visa issues?
He stayed in the US illegally for a long time in 2012 and now they're not letting him back in, his manager lied and said it would all be fixed far before ro16 season 2 but well here we are.
On August 04 2013 18:08 VieuxSinge wrote: How come he is the only Korean with visa issues?
Because the issues stem from him staying in the US for extended periods of time. The thread about him not being able to attend the American Season 1 finals goes over that, if I'm not mistaken.
Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
They might let everybody in, but they won't let them out with the prize money!
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
It would be awesome if NASL made WCS S3 Finals in Canada!
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
It would be awesome if NASL made WCS S3 Finals in Canada!
Isn't getting Canadian visa also difficult? Maybe less than US, but still?
well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Really sad to see visa issues again (and it´s always the US -.-) But it´s good to see that Blizzard has recognised this problem and pledged to deal with it.
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
Spot could have gone to a player who can attend, Violet is going to have trouble getting in the US at all for a long time (maybe until sc is officially a sport?)
On August 04 2013 18:48 pretender58 wrote: Really sad to see visa issues again (and it´s always the US -.-) But it´s good to see that Blizzard has recognised this problem and pledged to deal with it.
Tbh, it's more Violet fault than anything this time.
LoL needs to come in and save SC2 for the better of ESportS. Their players have an easier time getting VISA issues right? Now that they are recognized for being professional athletes who compete at the pinnacle of greatness
On August 04 2013 18:59 tshi wrote: LoL needs to come in and save SC2 for the better of ESportS. Their players have an easier time getting VISA issues right? Now that they are recognized for being professional athletes who compete at the pinnacle of greatness
Why would LoL ( Riot ) care ? They got through a lot of work and negotiation to get this advantage. They won't just say " Oh, and if you could do the same for my competitor who didn't move a finger, that'd be nice. "
Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
While I can sympathize, and see how it sucks, this is pretty much entirely his own fault and I can't help feeling like his manager basically robbed another player of a spot in WCS America. Yeah I do understand hoping you'll get a visa in time, but that's a pretty hopeful thing when you've been staying illegally in USA.
Who you should really feel sorry for are the Chinese players, not Violet.
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
maybe i phrased that wrong, blizzards policy (or better stance if i used that word wrong) regarding visas should be:
any player must be able to participate in the offlinematches, if a player already failed to do so once and/or his situation makes participation unlikely, he should be prevented from playing in that wcsregion.
of course i know that visas are government related and have nothing to do with a gaming company.
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
you really think our government is that incompetent when it comes to these kinds of issues?
The only people that consistently get their visa's denied are the Chinese players. Blizzard could just employ them (like Riot did, but far less people) and the problem would seize to exist. It would also make up a bit for the way the Chinese were treated at the start of this years WCS. Violets situation is different because he and/ or his management fucked up as I understand it. Doesn't make it suck any less but yeah..
2nd time in a row lol there has to be some big troubles. Also sad that Xy couldn't play the match why isn't that also in the news with the rescheduled Top match? T_T
Whilst its sad for Violet that he cant compete, at the end of the day it is a regional event for the Americas after all. This has nothing to do with Blizzard and is a personal issue between the player and the country he is attemping to work in
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
maybe i phrased that wrong, blizzards policy (or better stance if i used that word wrong) regarding visas should be:
any player must be able to participate in the offlinematches, if a player already failed to do so once and/or his situation makes participation unlikely, he should be prevented from playing in that wcsregion.
of course i know that visas are government related and have nothing to do with a gaming company.
So you say you understand and yet still say Blizzard need to change their policy when its completely out of their hands?
On August 04 2013 20:03 lichter wrote: They should make multiple entry visas a requirement for joining PremierLeague lol
Visas require fees to be paid. You want people who are from countries which don't have a WCS, through Blizzard's choice, to pay for visa applications on the off chance they might get into WCS AM premier league? Or you think Blizzard should pay for those visa fees?
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
maybe i phrased that wrong, blizzards policy (or better stance if i used that word wrong) regarding visas should be:
any player must be able to participate in the offlinematches, if a player already failed to do so once and/or his situation makes participation unlikely, he should be prevented from playing in that wcsregion.
of course i know that visas are government related and have nothing to do with a gaming company.
So you say you understand and yet still say Blizzard need to change their policy when its completely out of their hands?
He's saying Blizzard shouldn't have let viOLet compete to begin with...
These constant abandonment from players outside the US is the best argument for a region lock. There should be consequences for not showing up for the matches you signed up for..
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
maybe i phrased that wrong, blizzards policy (or better stance if i used that word wrong) regarding visas should be:
any player must be able to participate in the offlinematches, if a player already failed to do so once and/or his situation makes participation unlikely, he should be prevented from playing in that wcsregion.
of course i know that visas are government related and have nothing to do with a gaming company.
So you say you understand and yet still say Blizzard need to change their policy when its completely out of their hands?
He's saying Blizzard shouldn't have let viOLet compete to begin with...
well i am not a native speaker but "blizzards policy/stance REGARDING visa" as a formulation does not say they are involved with visas (not at all), but rather how they think or act based on it? or do i write fundamentally wrong english here?
On August 04 2013 18:48 pretender58 wrote: Really sad to see visa issues again (and it´s always the US -.-) But it´s good to see that Blizzard has recognised this problem and pledged to deal with it.
Tbh, it's more Violet fault than anything this time.
How you can say that this is rather Violet's fault?
"Hi guys viOLet's manager here, long story short when you spend too much time in the U.S. in the prior year, getting a VISA can be difficult." In other words: Violet lived more in America than in South Korea at year 2012 (<- this is the prior year). Blizzard announce their WCS stuff (later) at 3rd April 2013.
On August 04 2013 20:14 m0ck wrote: These constant abandonment from players outside the US is the best argument for a region lock. There should be consequences for not showing up for the matches you signed up for..
No, it is not. It is a good argument for - doing it not in the US (not likely for commercial reasons) - players/teams doing better preparation for these matters - extra penalisation of players who fail to obtain visas - Blizzard lobbying for SC2 recognition as a sport.
But you want the region lock, so youtry to use it as an argument for it, even though it isn't. These are very isolated cases, there are 11 koreans in the Ro16 and 10 of them seem to make it.
On August 04 2013 18:48 pretender58 wrote: Really sad to see visa issues again (and it´s always the US -.-) But it´s good to see that Blizzard has recognised this problem and pledged to deal with it.
Tbh, it's more Violet fault than anything this time.
How you can say that this is rather Violet's fault?
"Hi guys viOLet's manager here, long story short when you spend too much time in the U.S. in the prior year, getting a VISA can be difficult." In other words: Violet lived more in America than in South Korea at year 2012 (<- this is the prior year). Blizzard announce their WCS stuff (later) at 3rd April 2013.
On August 04 2013 18:12 Dodgin wrote: He stayed in the US illegally for a long time in 2012 and now they're not letting him back in, his manager lied and said it would all be fixed far before ro16 season 2 but well here we are.
So it's possible that we might have 3 walkovers on the ro16 for WCS AM? Violet cannot be there and Jim and Macsed may also not be able to make it... that's pretty bad :/
On August 04 2013 20:40 DinosaurJones wrote: So it's possible that we might have 3 walkovers on the ro16 for WCS AM? Violet cannot be there and Jim and Macsed may also not be able to make it... that's pretty bad :/
On August 04 2013 18:39 Naphal wrote: well i hope blizzard changes the policy regarding visa, at the very least for people who already had to forfeit once.
and i know it might not be fair to take it out on the players, but honestly, this is a tournament for the entertainment of the viewers, and not for the players, the players only get money because viewers are watching, and you cannot really watch walkovers, i dont know what they will do, but especially for chinese players it seems rather difficult, so they would need to do something for their sc2 scene.
on the other hand, violet already had a visa and only has problems now because he violated (<,<) the terms that came with it, so i dont really feel sorry for him.
Blizzard doesn't have a policy regarding visas. You need a visa to get into the US if you are from certain countries. That's a US government requirement. The only way Blizzard can "change the policy" is by not holding WCS AM in the USA, thereby changing the visa policy to the policy of the Canadian/Mexican etc government, rather than the US government.
maybe i phrased that wrong, blizzards policy (or better stance if i used that word wrong) regarding visas should be:
any player must be able to participate in the offlinematches, if a player already failed to do so once and/or his situation makes participation unlikely, he should be prevented from playing in that wcsregion.
of course i know that visas are government related and have nothing to do with a gaming company.
So you say you understand and yet still say Blizzard need to change their policy when its completely out of their hands?
He's saying Blizzard shouldn't have let viOLet compete to begin with...
well i am not a native speaker but "blizzards policy/stance REGARDING visa" as a formulation does not say they are involved with visas (not at all), but rather how they think or act based on it? or do i write fundamentally wrong english here?
Nope, everything you wrote was pretty clear. The guys responding to you didn't read it thoroughly.
On August 04 2013 18:48 pretender58 wrote: Really sad to see visa issues again (and it´s always the US -.-) But it´s good to see that Blizzard has recognised this problem and pledged to deal with it.
Tbh, it's more Violet fault than anything this time.
How you can say that this is rather Violet's fault?
"Hi guys viOLet's manager here, long story short when you spend too much time in the U.S. in the prior year, getting a VISA can be difficult." In other words: Violet lived more in America than in South Korea at year 2012 (<- this is the prior year). Blizzard announce their WCS stuff (later) at 3rd April 2013.
How isn't that Violet's fault? He chose to compete in WCS America twice, the first time knowing he'd been in the US illegally which would mean that it's unlikely he's going to get a Visa, and the second time after already being declined a Visa a few months prior.
Assuming he did stay in the US illegally (I've read that he did a few times, but cba checking since I don't really care about Violet) this is hardly surprising or undeserved.
They should have mandated some sort of "be sure you dont have VISA problems before choosing WCS region" policy to begin with - but since they dont provide a region for SEA and rushed the thing so fast, the fault is on blizzard with this one.
Wonder how EG-TL and Axiom has managed to avoid all these issues.
On August 04 2013 19:06 LittleRedBoy wrote: Welcome to America, the most free country in the world!
You think other countries don't have visas? America just happens to be the most popular country to go to for tournaments, many European countries have issues with Russian players, for instance.
On August 04 2013 20:40 DinosaurJones wrote: So it's possible that we might have 3 walkovers on the ro16 for WCS AM? Violet cannot be there and Jim and Macsed may also not be able to make it... that's pretty bad :/
Macsed got a visa though, didn't he?
Last I heard both of them were still in question. I'd be happy to be wrong though!
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
you really think our government is that incompetent when it comes to these kinds of issues?
Well...
Joking aside, this is a pretty sad situation, and I think holding the finals next year in Canada might be an option. Alternatively, Blizz should indeed put the RO16 players on the payroll for the duration of the tournament (and not for 1$, but somewhat reasonable salary - maybe employ them in their home country so this can count as a 'work visit', which is probably easier to get. IMHO after a dropout, #17 should get a spot, so no-one gets the advantage of a walkover, and we get to see more matches
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
you really think our government is that incompetent when it comes to these kinds of issues?
Well...
Joking aside, this is a pretty sad situation, and I think holding the finals next year in Canada might be an option. Alternatively, Blizz should indeed put the RO16 players on the payroll for the duration of the tournament (and not for 1$, but somewhat reasonable salary - maybe employ them in their home country so this can count as a 'work visit', which is probably easier to get. IMHO after a dropout, #17 should get a spot, so no-one gets the advantage of a walkover, and we get to see more matches
Work visas are super expensive. Like $5,000-$10,000 expensive. And they dont give you one for a week long event.
On August 04 2013 20:40 DinosaurJones wrote: So it's possible that we might have 3 walkovers on the ro16 for WCS AM? Violet cannot be there and Jim and Macsed may also not be able to make it... that's pretty bad :/
Macsed got a visa though, didn't he?
Last I heard both of them were still in question. I'd be happy to be wrong though!
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
you really think our government is that incompetent when it comes to these kinds of issues?
Well...
Joking aside, this is a pretty sad situation, and I think holding the finals next year in Canada might be an option. Alternatively, Blizz should indeed put the RO16 players on the payroll for the duration of the tournament (and not for 1$, but somewhat reasonable salary - maybe employ them in their home country so this can count as a 'work visit', which is probably easier to get. IMHO after a dropout, #17 should get a spot, so no-one gets the advantage of a walkover, and we get to see more matches
No, Canada is not an option - blizzard was pretty clear they plan to move the whole ro32 into LAN. How people residing in korea get their visas sorted in the future is not their concern, unless they actually need one to live in a team house in US.
With chinese players blizzard has a responsibility, since they screwed the whole region over.
On August 04 2013 19:02 Fionn wrote: Riot also pays their players salaries. They're basically all "employees" of Riot while they play in the LCS, getting a set amount of salary for every season they play in.
Wouldn't paying every Premier / Challenger league player a nominal sum (i.e. 1 dollar, or a peppercorn) circumvent the whole problem then?
you really think our government is that incompetent when it comes to these kinds of issues?
Well...
Joking aside, this is a pretty sad situation, and I think holding the finals next year in Canada might be an option. Alternatively, Blizz should indeed put the RO16 players on the payroll for the duration of the tournament (and not for 1$, but somewhat reasonable salary - maybe employ them in their home country so this can count as a 'work visit', which is probably easier to get. IMHO after a dropout, #17 should get a spot, so no-one gets the advantage of a walkover, and we get to see more matches
No, Canada is not an option - blizzard was pretty clear they plan to move the whole ro32 into LAN. How people residing in korea get their visas sorted in the future is not their concern, unless they actually need one to live in a team house in US.
With chinese players blizzard has a responsibility, since they screwed the whole region over.
Exactly. There is no grantees that they won't have other problems in Canada. Other players have had to deal with this problem, like Demuslim, who spent the money to get a work Visa and is on a US based team.
And really, Violet did this to himself by overstaying his visa/getting 90 visas over and over to stay in the US.
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
Yeah.
I'm just saying, FlaSh and Life won the most prestigious titles of their respective games when they were 15. If I'm not mistaken Creator was also 15 when he won TSL4 and WCS KR 2012. There's other examples I'm sure. Hell you guys have HeRoMaRiNe who's been pretty good lately right? :/
What kind of visa is usually required for Korean nationals?
I heard that some players from Europe and similar regions have traveled to the U.S. on the visa waiver program where you're allowed to stay up to 90 days without visa. But if I remember correctly, that program specifically states that occupational activities are not covered. Wonder how tournament competitions with prize money fit in with that.
On August 04 2013 20:40 DinosaurJones wrote: So it's possible that we might have 3 walkovers on the ro16 for WCS AM? Violet cannot be there and Jim and Macsed may also not be able to make it... that's pretty bad :/
Macsed got a visa though, didn't he?
Last I heard both of them were still in question. I'd be happy to be wrong though!
On August 04 2013 21:00 DsT-Napoleon wrote: Perhaps he shouldn't have entered in NA?
It was either that or EU (which is shit latency-wise from China) - KR requires you to physically be there all season.
Yet another way the KR region is markedly different from the other two. Where is the consistency? I thought that was the point of this whole abomination of a tournament.
On August 04 2013 18:21 Gamegene wrote: it hurts reading about every visa issue ever since LCS cleared this problem :/
Even if they did start doing that special "sport competitor visa" or whatever it is I still think Violet would have trouble getting one. It seems that he was illegally staying in the US for a very long time, they're not going to forget that.
What I'm about to say may be incredibly unpopular, and I really do like the guy, but is it time to consider banning Violet from competing in season 3 (for AM only). That's two walkovers now, whether it was his fault or not is irrelevant. I've played in regional leagues for my local football and hockey teams and if a team ever conceded two walkovers it was instant relegation. If the guy has no chance to attend the live RO16 event then he's costing other players a spot and also making the tournament look like a complete joke.
WCS is how it is now and we have to get used to that, but come 2014 I hope Blizzard make some big changes to avoid all this mess.
On August 04 2013 18:08 VieuxSinge wrote: How come he is the only Korean with visa issues?
I'd imagine it has something to do with him living in America for most of 2012. It still sucks that he keeps getting shut down though. Makes the worst WCS region that much worse when we can't get some of the players to come
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
Yeah.
I'm just saying, FlaSh and Life won the most prestigious titles of their respective games when they were 15. If I'm not mistaken Creator was also 15 when he won TSL4 and WCS KR 2012. There's other examples I'm sure. Hell you guys have HeRoMaRiNe who's been pretty good lately right? :/
actually did compete in the challenger league qualifiers this year, so I don't know what's up with that. Maybe he did it on the knowledge that by the time season 3 comes around he would've turned 16? I think the age restriction is something to do with laws and payment of cash prizes, I don't really know.
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
Thats not really true, back in 2012 WCS Colombia Qualifers held in Bogota, Colombia, WhiteRa was going to come for TtEsports and do some marketing stuff for them at the Campus Party but his visa was denied.
Too bad to hear, but I'm not super surprised considering the US's position on overstaying your visa.
On the other hand, there has to be some sort of punishment being dolled out here by Blizzard/WCS/whatever ruling body resides over this. Qualifying for two consecutive Ro16, knocking out players, when you're not sure if you'll be able to attend the offline Ro16 and onward just doesn't seem right.
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
Thats not really true, back in 2012 WCS Colombia Qualifers held in Bogota, Colombia, WhiteRa was going to come for TtEsports and do some marketing stuff for them at the Campus Party but his visa was denied.
I love how people keep assuming that people wouldn't have visa issues in other countries. You have to ask to enter another country and they might not let you in.
I also love how people keep saying "why not host it in another country?" like it's practical and cost efficient to do so.
On August 04 2013 18:27 opisska wrote: Why is WCS America always in USA anyway. Isn't it supposed to mean the whole continent? Just make the offline part in any Latin American country, they let in almost everyone (sometimes you have to pay a small official fee, sometimes a small inoffical as well, but that's small change compared to the prize pool ).
Thats not really true, back in 2012 WCS Colombia Qualifers held in Bogota, Colombia, WhiteRa was going to come for TtEsports and do some marketing stuff for them at the Campus Party but his visa was denied.
I love how people keep assuming that people wouldn't have visa issues in other countries. You have to ask to enter another country and they might not let you in.
Was Violet the one who stayed in the US because he was seeing a girl? Or is that someone else?
On August 04 2013 22:38 AgentW wrote: Qualifying for two consecutive Ro16, knocking out players, when you're not sure if you'll be able to attend the offline Ro16 and onward just doesn't seem right.
Technically none of the non-US resident player can be sure they'll be able to attend Ro16 though.
On August 04 2013 22:38 AgentW wrote: Qualifying for two consecutive Ro16, knocking out players, when you're not sure if you'll be able to attend the offline Ro16 and onward just doesn't seem right.
Technically none of the non-US resident player can be sure they'll be able to attend Ro16 though.
Fair enough, but when you've been denied entry before because of an issue that hasn't been resolved, you should think twice about re-upping until you can set things straight.
I understand why people would like a region lock, but no point in sending a bunch of players who will just lose all their matches at the finals anyway.
Well this is strange as the USA does see eSports as sport and VISA's shoudn't be a problem
Well, now according to Riot Games eSports manager Nick Allen (speaking to Gamespot), after a long back and forth with the government, the U.S. finally now recognizes eSports players as professional athletes, and will grant them visas under that identifier. This will dramatically streamline the process for foreign players to enter the U.S. for events, and it’s a big victory for the scene.
Well, now according to Riot Games eSports manager Nick Allen (speaking to Gamespot), after a long back and forth with the government, the U.S. finally now recognizes eSports players as professional athletes, and will grant them visas under that identifier. This will dramatically streamline the process for foreign players to enter the U.S. for events, and it’s a big victory for the scene.
People who blame Blizzard for this - get a grip. He overstayed far too long last year and now he's paying for it. If you wanna blame Blizzard, you could say it's their fault not negotiating Jim's and Macsed's visas in time for which their team management is also to blame. And don't even try to justify it saying 'yeah, but you need booked flights etc'. They should've started official negotiation with immigration office way ahead to explore all the options, not wait for last minute.
On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote: Region Lock for heavens sake please.
What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US?
Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against.
On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote: Region Lock for heavens sake please.
What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US?
Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against.
China, it has it's own scene, give it the support it deserves.
This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Overstay is pretty bad for Visa, for normal people, they may never get a visa again in their whole life, ofc talking about US visa, not European countries, don't know policies there.
This sucks for WCS. Having a walkover at the LAN section just messes with the tournament. Now one group is easier than the others plus another player, Hwangsin could have participated.
I like Violet a lot but this issue is entirely down to him, so I don't feel too sorry for him. The mess is of his own making. It is his responsibility to ensure he did not overstay his previous Visa conditions.
WCS should prevent him from participating in future seasons of WCS NA until he can show he has resolved his Visa issue. Otherwise Season 3 could get messed up as well.
I'm more surprised that violet think he could possibly get a visa this decade after overstaying. And I'm even more shocked to hear that his manager think it's somehow fixable. Maybe if he got a direct line to a congressman or something.
Well, now according to Riot Games eSports manager Nick Allen (speaking to Gamespot), after a long back and forth with the government, the U.S. finally now recognizes eSports players as professional athletes, and will grant them visas under that identifier. This will dramatically streamline the process for foreign players to enter the U.S. for events, and it’s a big victory for the scene.
And being able to show financial support is a big part of the Visa process. They do not want people coming to the USA and becoming a burden on welfare programs or get a free ride home.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
My now wife got refused once at the border. They wanted more evidence of self financial support and foundation back home (bills being paid, etc) since she was not driving in her own vehicle over.
Once that flag is on it was an hour at each crossing. She also had to have set limits on her stays and they made it clear if you overstay things will harder in the future. Its been a few years now and the last couple times it has not been as bad. Now she has her green card but we have not tested re-entry yet with that.
On August 05 2013 00:30 HeeroFX wrote: Is it mean to say, kinda glad Visa issues happen so we can see more Americans maybe in the league?
You're welcome to your opinion, but I hardly think that this is going to produce more NA players in WCS AM. It's just going to open a spot for a lesser known eSF or KeSPA player.
On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote: Region Lock for heavens sake please.
What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US?
Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against.
China, it has it's own scene, give it the support it deserves.
Until 3 weeks ago China didn't have a HotS scene at all officially, since it hadn't been cleared and released, and we had already started this round of WCS.
As many people said initially, this whole WCS thing hasn't been fully thought through, they launched it too soon, and it's still having issues. Region locking doesn't solve those issues without a whole lot of other work as well/beforehand, so just saying "Region lock for heavens sake please" is pointless and not at all helpful.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Yes but even switching regions won't help too much. For at least one season finals a year, should he qualify for it, he will be unable to attend as it will be in America. And if by some strange occurrence he makes the yearly final, which is nearly impossible without making it to a season final, he won't be able to attend that either as its at Blizzcon IIRC.
Although I don't think its a question of should switch but a matter of he should be forced too. Its pretty sad for the second time to see how drastically this changes WCS AM.
Why don't they give hwangsin his spot? If someone fails to show up to the Ro16 due to visa or other travel issues, the 3rd place person in that Ro32 group should replace them. Walkovers are awful.
On August 04 2013 18:08 VieuxSinge wrote: How come he is the only Korean with visa issues?
He stayed in the US illegally for a long time in 2012 and now they're not letting him back in, his manager lied and said it would all be fixed far before ro16 season 2 but well here we are.
hmm if he did indeed overstay for his last visa, then it's his fault that he can't get one this time. It's definitely rough though :/ Best of luck to violet!
On August 05 2013 00:58 Iodem wrote: Why don't they give hwangsin his spot? If someone fails to show up to the Ro16 due to visa or other travel issues, the 3rd place person in that Ro32 group should replace them. Walkovers are awful.
Walkovers suck but I disagree with advancing someone that came in 3rd in their group and is eliminated due to the way the point standings work.
He should not have been allowed to participate after season one, and he should definitely be banned from WCS NA for at least next season, if not until he can prove he has cleared up his ban from entering the USA.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
On August 04 2013 18:08 VieuxSinge wrote: How come he is the only Korean with visa issues?
He stayed in the US illegally for a long time in 2012 and now they're not letting him back in, his manager lied and said it would all be fixed far before ro16 season 2 but well here we are.
That's probably why he left AZUBU.
I think that would have more to do with AZUBU not being sponsored anymore...
It has been cleared countless times by Violet's management that he did NOT overstay his visa whatsoever, and was not in the US illegally at any time. To say he was, does more harm than good.
These problems WILL continue to happen to all your favorite players, even with the best management in the world..if we simply choose to ignore it and blame the player for things like this happening.
Why do they keep letting him take up spots in WCS NA? Maybe he should play in WCS KR instead of trying to take the easy way in WCS AM. I have no sympathy for him.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
personally speaking, the responsibility should have gone to violet or violet's managers to act professionally rather than try and unreasonably hope that the issue would be resolved in a timely manner.
On August 05 2013 01:28 KeyHunt wrote: These problems WILL continue to happen to all your favorite players, even with the best management in the world..if we simply choose to ignore it and blame the player for things like this happening.
But this issue is Violet's fault. How do I know? Because Violet himself says it his fault on Facebook. Also CSN Andrew (his manager) also said on Reddit that it is his and Violet's full responsibility for Violet failing to obtain the Visa. So obviously Violet is to blame for this issue, as he himself admits it.
Violet has been denied a Visa into the USA for almost 8 months now. The only fault that WCS have is allowing Violet to participate in WCS NA given that situation.
On August 05 2013 02:05 Gamegene wrote: personally speaking, the responsibility should have gone to violet or violet's managers to act professionally rather than try and unreasonably hope that the issue would be resolved in a timely manner.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
ESTA waivers are denied all the time, even ones previously issued without problem. I am curious though, where are you getting the information that ESTA waivers renew indefinitely when one leaves the US? I'm almost certain that this is not true.
I would like to know where all these people who claim that violet overstayed his visa are getting this information from (dodgin, wax, treehugger, others). If that is true, then yes it is poor planning from management/violet. However, I have seen no evidence other than speculation based on how long he was here and what you assume his past visas were for....ie if it is speculation stop saying it like it is a fact, because it's not.
They need to have it in the rules for WCS (and have needed it in GSL for ages it's a joke that they haven't added it) that if someone forfeits the group changes to a 3player group with round robin format. Keeping the same format and giving walkovers is so ridiculous dumb.
On August 05 2013 01:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: just change region
Can't do it until 2014. Why he didn't change after getting his visa denied for Season 1, I have no idea.
I would be fine with an exception being made for a player that is consistently unable to play in the region selected or having him sit out season 3 instead of wasting a spot
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
ESTA waivers are denied all the time, even ones previously issued without problem. I am curious though, where are you getting the information that ESTA waivers renew indefinitely when one leaves the US? I'm almost certain that this is not true.
If what the guy you quoted said is true, that's a really, really stupid law.
On August 05 2013 02:35 JJH777 wrote: They need to have it in the rules for WCS (and have needed it in GSL for ages it's a joke that they haven't added it) that if someone forfeits the group changes to a 3player group with round robin format. Keeping the same format and giving walkovers is so ridiculous dumb.
On August 05 2013 01:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: just change region
Can't do it until 2014. Why he didn't change after getting his visa denied for Season 1, I have no idea.
I would be fine with an exception being made for a player that is consistently unable to play in the region selected or having him sit out season 3 instead of wasting a spot
Agreed. It's a shame that a player is being denied the ability to play as well as a tournament having a blank slot, whatever the cause may be.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
ESTA waivers are denied all the time, even ones previously issued without problem. I am curious though, where are you getting the information that ESTA waivers renew indefinitely when one leaves the US? I'm almost certain that this is not true.
If what the guy you quoted said is true, that's a really, really stupid law.
On August 05 2013 02:35 JJH777 wrote: They need to have it in the rules for WCS (and have needed it in GSL for ages it's a joke that they haven't added it) that if someone forfeits the group changes to a 3player group with round robin format. Keeping the same format and giving walkovers is so ridiculous dumb.
On August 05 2013 01:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: just change region
Can't do it until 2014. Why he didn't change after getting his visa denied for Season 1, I have no idea.
I would be fine with an exception being made for a player that is consistently unable to play in the region selected or having him sit out season 3 instead of wasting a spot
Agreed. It's a shame that a player is being denied the ability to play as well as a tournament having a blank slot, whatever the cause may be.
I know they don't. I said they have needed it in GSL for ages.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
ESTA waivers are denied all the time, even ones previously issued without problem. I am curious though, where are you getting the information that ESTA waivers renew indefinitely when one leaves the US? I'm almost certain that this is not true.
If what the guy you quoted said is true, that's a really, really stupid law.
On August 05 2013 02:35 JJH777 wrote: They need to have it in the rules for WCS (and have needed it in GSL for ages it's a joke that they haven't added it) that if someone forfeits the group changes to a 3player group with round robin format. Keeping the same format and giving walkovers is so ridiculous dumb.
On August 05 2013 01:27 Shellshock1122 wrote: just change region
Can't do it until 2014. Why he didn't change after getting his visa denied for Season 1, I have no idea.
I would be fine with an exception being made for a player that is consistently unable to play in the region selected or having him sit out season 3 instead of wasting a spot
Agreed. It's a shame that a player is being denied the ability to play as well as a tournament having a blank slot, whatever the cause may be.
I know they don't. I said they have needed it in GSL for ages.
Sorry about that, I read it as "have had it in GSL for ages." My apologies.
And I agree. It's silly to give an advantage to one out of three based upon one of them dropping at random.
They told the visa people to watch the wcs finals next week to see the passion of the fans and players and reconsider the denial for next season, but they said they were going to watch the international next week.
On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote: Region Lock for heavens sake please.
What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US?
Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against.
China, it has it's own scene, give it the support it deserves.
Blizzard is a business that is interested in money only. If supporting the chinese sc2 scene will get them financial benefits, they will do it. Until then they dont give a shit.
And to make this clear, i totally agree with you, they deserve way more support than they are getting.
On August 04 2013 20:13 Kyselin wrote: Is it easier to get a visa for Canada or the US ? Guess if that's the case Canada should host the NA finals.
It has less to do with US policies and more to do with Violet staying in the US way longer than he should have last time he was here......
haha, so it's 100% Violet's fault to begin with? Maybe let the players do a blind vote to see if he can play the rest of his tournament online? Elsewise just kick him from WCS AM for good, this is the 2nd straight season he ruined a group.
This is fucking bullshit. Almost exactly a month ago, LoL got recognition for being a sport, therefore making it extremely easy to get a visa in Violet's situation for his needs. This is fucking bullshit that LoL is the only game that has gotten this treatment. As far as I know, LoL players haven't had nearly as many visa issues as SC2 players. (They've had more issues of players getting drunk, oversleeping, or having other obligations.) I'm not going to get into arguments of games, numbers, viewership, etc, but I'm a bit pissed when a game that has has very little issue with visas gets recognized when the game that has been around longer and has had plenty of visa issues gets ignored. If at least HoN was recognized as a sport, I'd be less pissed because that's been around longer too.
On August 05 2013 04:45 RyLai wrote: This is fucking bullshit. Almost exactly a month ago, LoL got recognition for being a sport, therefore making it extremely easy to get a visa in Violet's situation for his needs. This is fucking bullshit that LoL is the only game that has gotten this treatment. As far as I know, LoL players haven't had nearly as many visa issues as SC2 players. (They've had more issues of players getting drunk, oversleeping, or having other obligations.) I'm not going to get into arguments of games, numbers, viewership, etc, but I'm a bit pissed when a game that has has very little issue with visas gets recognized when the game that has been around longer and has had plenty of visa issues gets ignored. If at least HoN was recognized as a sport, I'd be less pissed because that's been around longer too.
On August 05 2013 04:45 RyLai wrote: This is fucking bullshit. Almost exactly a month ago, LoL got recognition for being a sport, therefore making it extremely easy to get a visa in Violet's situation for his needs. This is fucking bullshit that LoL is the only game that has gotten this treatment. As far as I know, LoL players haven't had nearly as many visa issues as SC2 players. (They've had more issues of players getting drunk, oversleeping, or having other obligations.) I'm not going to get into arguments of games, numbers, viewership, etc, but I'm a bit pissed when a game that has has very little issue with visas gets recognized when the game that has been around longer and has had plenty of visa issues gets ignored. If at least HoN was recognized as a sport, I'd be less pissed because that's been around longer too.
What did you expect to happen when you overstay your visa? To stop this they need to make it a requirement that you have a valid visa before the tournament even starts. This is the 2nd time he has had this issue with WCS AM and both times it has caused another player that could have shown up for the tournament to not get a spot. Keep in mind Jims visa issue has still not be resolved(or at least announced) so there is potentially 2 spots in the ro16 that are completely wasted. I honestly think some sort of punishment should be implemented.
On August 05 2013 04:45 RyLai wrote: This is fucking bullshit. Almost exactly a month ago, LoL got recognition for being a sport, therefore making it extremely easy to get a visa in Violet's situation for his needs. This is fucking bullshit that LoL is the only game that has gotten this treatment. As far as I know, LoL players haven't had nearly as many visa issues as SC2 players. (They've had more issues of players getting drunk, oversleeping, or having other obligations.) I'm not going to get into arguments of games, numbers, viewership, etc, but I'm a bit pissed when a game that has has very little issue with visas gets recognized when the game that has been around longer and has had plenty of visa issues gets ignored. If at least HoN was recognized as a sport, I'd be less pissed because that's been around longer too.
You actually think that game age is even remotely relevant for Visas? You think LoL players getting athlete designation is remotely relevant to SC2 players getting Visas?
This has got to lead to a WCS temp ban against viOLet.... You don't just forfeit your spot in two playoff seasons in a row.... The problem is with him and his agents. Either his agents are lying to him or they aren't doing their jobs well enough, or at the very least it's something along these lines.
I love viOLet, but coming from neutral standpoint, he should be temp banned at least 1 season, if not the year.
If, like people said, this is because Violet stayed in America way longer than he was supposed to last time, than he deserves this. Why would you let him back into the US when he breached your trust the first time? He's not the victim here...
Why the hell would you even let him in the tournament unless you had something in writing regarding the situation to make you reconsider? He stayed here illegally, and while he's a great player, you gave a spot to the tournament to someone with no hopes of finishing it.
On August 05 2013 05:36 Shinta) wrote: This has got to lead to a WCS temp ban against viOLet.... You don't just forfeit your spot in two playoff seasons in a row.... The problem is with him and his agents. Either his agents are lying to him or they aren't doing their jobs well enough, or at the very least it's something along these lines.
I love viOLet, but coming from neutral standpoint, he should be temp banned at least 1 season, if not the year.
I agree, but only if he doesn't stop with those silly Kappafaces.
Otherwise I think he should get off with a warning.
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
?? so Germany cannot host the Olympics ??? (no age requirement in the Olympics, except as provided by the rules of each sport... and surely Gymnastic, for instance, does not have a 16 years old minimum req.)
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
?? so Germany cannot host the Olympics ??? (no age requirement in the Olympics, except as provided by the rules of each sport... and surely Gymnastic, for instance, does not have a 16 years old minimum req.)
I am sure everyone writes exceptions to those laws for the Olympics.
I also love how people keep saying "why not host it in another country?" like it's practical and cost efficient to do so.
What make you think that it would be more expensive to host it somewhere else ?
as for 'pratical' given the number of US players in the RO16, it owuld be just as practical to host it in Canada. and mind you Canada has internet too... but are much more welcoming of foreigner, visitor or otherwise.
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
?? so Germany cannot host the Olympics ??? (no age requirement in the Olympics, except as provided by the rules of each sport... and surely Gymnastic, for instance, does not have a 16 years old minimum req.)
I am sure everyone writes exceptions to those laws for the Olympics.
are they writing 'exception' for every international competition they host ? every time ? That sound weird.
Beside there are plenty of competition at the national level for below 16 athlete in many sports... Isn't the 16 limitation a 'employement' limitation. iow one cannot become 'pro' with a german-based sport team if less than 16 ? (and I don't think that 'prize' money => pro)
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
?? so Germany cannot host the Olympics ??? (no age requirement in the Olympics, except as provided by the rules of each sport... and surely Gymnastic, for instance, does not have a 16 years old minimum req.)
I am sure everyone writes exceptions to those laws for the Olympics.
are they writing 'exception' for every international competition they host ? every time ? That sound weird.
Beside there are plenty of competition at the national level for below 16 athlete in many sports... Isn't the 16 limitation a 'employement' limitation. iow one cannot become 'pro' with a german-based sport team if less than 16 ? (and I don't think that 'prize' money => pro)
Let me put it to you this way, you have to bid on hosting the Olympics and I don't think they are going to let you host them unless you agree to follow all their rules, including their age requirement. Which means you need to do something to your laws if the don't line up.
I also love how people keep saying "why not host it in another country?" like it's practical and cost efficient to do so.
What make you think that it would be more expensive to host it somewhere else ?
as for 'pratical' given the number of US players in the RO16, it owuld be just as practical to host it in Canada. and mind you Canada has internet too... but are much more welcoming of foreigner, visitor or otherwise.
Where else would Blizzard host the NA event and why would this area not have visa problems too? The US is not the only place that has visa requirements. A friend of my from Burma just got denied to go to the UK, even those they have had no problems before. Her Visa to the US was approved with no problems for the same trip.
On August 04 2013 22:38 AgentW wrote: Qualifying for two consecutive Ro16, knocking out players, when you're not sure if you'll be able to attend the offline Ro16 and onward just doesn't seem right.
Technically none of the non-US resident player can be sure they'll be able to attend Ro16 though.
Fair enough, but when you've been denied entry before because of an issue that hasn't been resolved, you should think twice about re-upping until you can set things straight.
Well, the rules says that you cannot change WCS region... so what is Violet to do, stop competing altogether, not get _any_ point, just because he was denied once... and what about the season finales.. there are 2 in the US... should people competing in WCS Europe and WCS Korea be bared from competing if they may have visa issue to get into the US ? iow... what if Violet got in WCS Korea for season 2 and finished top 5 ?
I also love how people keep saying "why not host it in another country?" like it's practical and cost efficient to do so.
What make you think that it would be more expensive to host it somewhere else ?
as for 'pratical' given the number of US players in the RO16, it owuld be just as practical to host it in Canada. and mind you Canada has internet too... but are much more welcoming of foreigner, visitor or otherwise.
Well, let's take a look see, shall we?
NASL is located in... America! Blizzard is located in... America! All of Blizzard and NASL's production equipment is in... America! Plane tickets and moving lots of important equipment isn't free, hence WCS likely will never be played anywhere but California.
On August 04 2013 22:38 AgentW wrote: Qualifying for two consecutive Ro16, knocking out players, when you're not sure if you'll be able to attend the offline Ro16 and onward just doesn't seem right.
Technically none of the non-US resident player can be sure they'll be able to attend Ro16 though.
Fair enough, but when you've been denied entry before because of an issue that hasn't been resolved, you should think twice about re-upping until you can set things straight.
Well, the rules says that you cannot change WCS region... so what is Violet to do, stop competing altogether, not get _any_ point, just because he was denied once... and what about the season finales.. there are 2 in the US... should people competing in WCS Europe and WCS Korea be bared from competing if they may have visa issue to get into the US ? iow... what if Violet got in WCS Korea for season 2 and finished top 5 ?
viOLet should have played in WCS Korea when he had a chance after Season 1 considering the information we have now (and the information he clearly had then).
Also, there's no matter of "should" be barred from competing. The US government has the final say in the matter, it's their decision who to let into the country.
On August 05 2013 06:29 shmget wrote: Well, the rules says that you cannot change WCS region... so what is Violet to do, stop competing altogether, not get _any_ point, just because he was denied once...
Yes, he should withdraw from WCS AM completely until he can get his visa issues sorted. And it's not once, this is the second time he's been denied a visa and had to pull out.
On August 05 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote: Let me put it to you this way, you have to bid on hosting the Olympics and I don't think they are going to let you host them unless you agree to follow all their rules, including their age requirement. Which means you need to do something to your laws if the don't line up.
I agree that the Olympic often get special waiver for plenty of stuff (including visa) that is why I gave a link about a World ChampionShip
My point is that I doubt the 16 requirement is related to 'competing in a sporting event'...
Where else would Blizzard host the NA event and why would this area not have visa problems too? The US is not the only place that has visa requirements. A friend of my from Burma just got denied to go to the UK, even those they have had no problems before. Her Visa to the US was approved with no problems for the same trip.
For one thing. it is not a NA event. it is called WCS America not WCS NA or WCS USA Second, Sure everyone has a horror story about visa everywhere... but here there are plenty of such problem: 3 in a base sample of 16 (well 15, since 1 RO16 participant is from the US) Let's try Canada and see how many of the 16 get denied...
On August 05 2013 06:30 AgentW wrote: Well, let's take a look see, shall we?
NASL is located in... America! Blizzard is located in... America! All of Blizzard and NASL's production equipment is in... America! Plane tickets and moving lots of important equipment isn't free, hence WCS likely will never be played anywhere but California.
and last season it was hosted in... New York, which last I checked is not in California.
viOLet should have played in WCS Korea when he had a chance after Season 1 considering the information we have now (and the information he clearly had then).
I have no idea what 'information' Violet had back then... but as visa goes... you don;t know until you apply and are denied... and they do not have to give you a 'reason'. beside that does not change that eh would still not be able to get a visa to get the the season Finale or the global finale. In general it would be best to host these even in country that are more welcoming of foreigners.
Also, there's no matter of "should" be barred from competing. The US government has the final say in the matter, it's their decision who to let into the country.
Well, some in this thread argue that Blizzard should have prevented him from entering the tournament altogether.
On August 05 2013 06:25 Plansix wrote: Let me put it to you this way, you have to bid on hosting the Olympics and I don't think they are going to let you host them unless you agree to follow all their rules, including their age requirement. Which means you need to do something to your laws if the don't line up.
I agree that the Olympic often get special waiver for plenty of stuff (including visa) that is why I gave a link about a World ChampionShip
My point is that I doubt the 16 requirement is related to 'competing in a sporting event'...
Where else would Blizzard host the NA event and why would this area not have visa problems too? The US is not the only place that has visa requirements. A friend of my from Burma just got denied to go to the UK, even those they have had no problems before. Her Visa to the US was approved with no problems for the same trip.
For one thing. it is not a NA event. it is called WCS America not WCS NA or WCS USA Second, Sure everyone has a horror story about visa everywhere... but here there are plenty of such problem: 3 in a base sample of 16 (well 15, since 1 RO16 participant is from the US) Let's try Canada and see how many of the 16 get denied...
So NASL is supposed to move its studio to Canada so people from other countries might more easily Visas? What if all their employees can't get work visas in Canada or don't want to move?
On August 05 2013 06:30 AgentW wrote: Well, let's take a look see, shall we?
NASL is located in... America! Blizzard is located in... America! All of Blizzard and NASL's production equipment is in... America! Plane tickets and moving lots of important equipment isn't free, hence WCS likely will never be played anywhere but California.
and last season it was hosted in... New York, which last I checked is not in California.
viOLet should have played in WCS Korea when he had a chance after Season 1 considering the information we have now (and the information he clearly had then).
I have no idea what 'information' Violet had back then... but as visa goes... you don;t know until you apply and are denied... and they do not have to give you a 'reason'. beside that does not change that eh would still not be able to get a visa to get the the season Finale or the global finale. In general it would be best to host these even in country that are more welcoming of foreigners.
Also, there's no matter of "should" be barred from competing. The US government has the final say in the matter, it's their decision who to let into the country.
Well, some in this thread argue that Blizzard should have prevented him from entering the tournament altogether.
California's where everything's going to be at from now on, considering NASL and Blizzard are both located in SoCal. MLG is located in NY, hence the Season 1 finals were there. What I said is absolutely correct.
viOLet knew his visa had been denied at least once. Instead of playing in WCS KR, he decided to re-up with WCS AM. It's not that the US isn't welcoming to foreigners, it's that viOLet violated the terms of his visa. If you don't understand this, I suggest re-reading the entire thread.
Blizzard should prevent him from entering the tournament if it's known that he's never going to be able to make a LAN. It's just silly to have someone continuously make Ro16's and then forfeit because he can't show up to the offline event (which was known to be the case beforehand), for whatever reason.
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues. He came for an extended period of time and it's not a secret that he's going to have huge issues getting into the United States.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
On August 05 2013 06:06 havok55 wrote: Why's he still taking up someone's spot? I like Violet but get your shit straight first.
He is not _taking_ anyone's spot. he earned it by _beating_ them at SC2.
I'm looking forward at the outrage of the same people that are advocating that navel-centric view of the world, if a US player ever make it to a WCS finals and get denied his entry visa to where ever that tournament is held.
On August 05 2013 06:06 havok55 wrote: Why's he still taking up someone's spot? I like Violet but get your shit straight first.
He is not _taking_ anyone's spot. he earned it by _beating_ them at SC2.
I'm looking forward at the outrage of the same people that are advocating that navel-centric view of the world, if a US player ever make it to a WCS finals and get denied his entry visa to where ever that tournament is held.
That's fair if the US player lived in the country in question illegally, left, and then tried to get back in. If the player just is rejected a visa because the country doesn't like his country, then there might be a legitimate gripe.
On August 05 2013 07:33 Serek wrote: Again? Why is he still allowed to play in WCS AM?
Takes a spot away from a North American player and now can't even play.. fuckin awesome.
No he did not. he qualified, he did not take anyone's spot, even less a 'North American' player, considering that his R32 group was 3 koreans and 1 chinese. and that in code A, he beat Major who qualified to code S anyway...
On August 05 2013 06:30 AgentW wrote: Well, let's take a look see, shall we?
NASL is located in... America! Blizzard is located in... America! All of Blizzard and NASL's production equipment is in... America! Plane tickets and moving lots of important equipment isn't free, hence WCS likely will never be played anywhere but California.
and last season it was hosted in... New York, which last I checked is not in California.
California's where everything's going to be at from now on, considering NASL and Blizzard are both located in SoCal. MLG is located in NY, hence the Season 1 finals were there. What I said is absolutely correct.
You said that WCS will likely _never_ be play anywhere but California (despite the _fact_ that it _has_)... on the ground, among other things that NASL is located in California, and would logistically not be able to do it in Canada... despite NASL voluntarily hosting they NASL finals in Toronto, Canada. So the whole 'logistically impossible' rational is certainly not 'absolute' You also stated the ground that Blizzard is in California as a reason, despite the fact that the Season 1 final where in NY, which indicate that where Blizzard head-quarter is not an 'absolute' factor either.
We must certainly have a different definition of 'absolutely correct'.
On August 05 2013 06:06 havok55 wrote: Why's he still taking up someone's spot? I like Violet but get your shit straight first.
He is not _taking_ anyone's spot. he earned it by _beating_ them at SC2.
I'm looking forward at the outrage of the same people that are advocating that navel-centric view of the world, if a US player ever make it to a WCS finals and get denied his entry visa to where ever that tournament is held.
That's fair if the US player lived in the country in question illegally, left, and then tried to get back in. If the player just is rejected a visa because the country doesn't like his country, then there might be a legitimate gripe.
On August 05 2013 06:30 AgentW wrote: Well, let's take a look see, shall we?
NASL is located in... America! Blizzard is located in... America! All of Blizzard and NASL's production equipment is in... America! Plane tickets and moving lots of important equipment isn't free, hence WCS likely will never be played anywhere but California.
and last season it was hosted in... New York, which last I checked is not in California.
California's where everything's going to be at from now on, considering NASL and Blizzard are both located in SoCal. MLG is located in NY, hence the Season 1 finals were there. What I said is absolutely correct.
You said that WCS will likely _never_ be play anywhere but California (despite the _fact_ that it _has_)... on the ground, among other things that NASL is located in California, and would logistically not be able to do it in Canada... despite NASL voluntarily hosting they NASL finals in Toronto, Canada. So the whole 'logistically impossible' rational is certainly not 'absolute' You also stated the ground that Blizzard is in California as a reason, despite the fact that the Season 1 final where in NY, which indicate that where Blizzard head-quarter is not an 'absolute' factor either.
We must certainly have a different definition of 'absolutely correct'.
On August 05 2013 06:06 havok55 wrote: Why's he still taking up someone's spot? I like Violet but get your shit straight first.
He is not _taking_ anyone's spot. he earned it by _beating_ them at SC2.
I'm looking forward at the outrage of the same people that are advocating that navel-centric view of the world, if a US player ever make it to a WCS finals and get denied his entry visa to where ever that tournament is held.
That's fair if the US player lived in the country in question illegally, left, and then tried to get back in. If the player just is rejected a visa because the country doesn't like his country, then there might be a legitimate gripe.
On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote: For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues.
Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew.
This isn't the first time he has had visa issues related to his prior stay. It's not like this is something that hasn't happened before. If he doesn't know that it's going to be an issue then I don't really no what to say...
I don't know if I should explain WHY it's going to be an issue. But a tl;dr version is the government doesn't care about StarCraft II enough to allow people to break the law.
On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote: For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues.
Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew.
Except that he did after being denied re-entry after Season 1. Are you intentionally ignoring facts at this point?
Did you read the quote ? let me re-print it for you "why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues."
There was nothing about 'after season 1', because the poster prolly already knew the answer to that: he would have been prohibited to change region as per Blizzard rules. So the only rational understanding of that statement was the face value of it... why violet chose the WCS AM region [ at all, to start with ] when he [allegedly] knew he's _going to_ have visa issues.
Eh, but what do I know... american english is not my native language, I clearly must be missing some 'subtle' nuances.
On August 05 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote: So NASL is supposed to move its studio to Canada so people from other countries might more easily Visas? What if all their employees can't get work visas in Canada or don't want to move?
1/ they do not have to 'move' their studio. They already organized their NASL finals in Toronto, without moving their studio. Clearly they know how to do it.
2/ Their employees do not have to 'move', anymore than the players have to 'move' to California under the current system or to New York under the previous one.
3/ There are visa waiver for US citizen to get to Canada (and reciprocally). there is no more risk that their employee get denied entry to Canada, than there is that Scarlett get denied entry to the US... which is ~0. otoh 18.75% of season 2 RO16 participants got visa problems to get into the US.
4/ NASL does not _have_ to organized the WCS region finals... they did not organize season 1 did they ?
5/ and yes, it would be a good idea to organize international competition in foreigner-friendly countries.
On August 05 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote: So NASL is supposed to move its studio to Canada so people from other countries might more easily Visas? What if all their employees can't get work visas in Canada or don't want to move?
1/ they do not have to 'move' their studio. They already organized their NASL finals in Toronto, without moving their studio. Clearly they know how to do it.
2/ Their employees do not have to 'move', anymore than the players have to 'move' to California under the current system or to New York under the previous one.
3/ There are visa waiver for US citizen to get to Canada (and reciprocally). there is no more risk that their employee get denied entry to Canada, than there is that Scarlett get denied entry to the US... which is ~0. otoh 18.75% of season 2 RO16 participants got visa problems to get into the US.
4/ NASL does not _have_ to organized the WCS region finals... they did not organize season 1 did they ?
5/ and yes, it would be a good idea to organize international competition in foreigner-friendly countries.
The finals happened in Toronto. The round of 16 and the semi finals happened in studio. So unless they are going to rent a studio for 2-3 weeks in Toronto, it's not going to happen. Move the whole thing to a different country is never a simple or easy option for anyone or any business.
On August 05 2013 09:24 nkr wrote: People who fail to show up for the offline portion should be suspended for the next season and then requalify.
Nah, he needs to be banned from WCS for the rest of the year. The situation for viOlet sucks, but this makes WCS look bad. How does it look for spectators when competitors can't even compete? It makes Blizzard look incompetent at running a tournament. Something that a billion dollar company shouldn't really struggle with...
This situation is going to keep happening and it isn't going to make WCS look any better if players struggle to even show up.
On August 05 2013 07:33 Serek wrote: Again? Why is he still allowed to play in WCS AM?
Takes a spot away from a North American player and now can't even play.. fuckin awesome.
No he did not. he qualified, he did not take anyone's spot, even less a 'North American' player, considering that his R32 group was 3 koreans and 1 chinese. and that in code A, he beat Major who qualified to code S anyway...
He may have qualified but he still isn't playing in his native region. This is why we have a dying NA scene.. unbeatable Koreans migrating to take easy money and now they can't even get their shit together to play after resources have been spent acommodating them? 3 potential walkovers in the round of 16.. its disgusting. No wonder we have players like Theognis retiring left right and center.. the current system gives them zero confidence that things will be run properly. And don't give me that shit about them rightfully qualifying..WCS 2as implemented to grow their respective regions. The way it currently plays out does nothing of the sort.
On liquibet policy, can there be a change where it is unselected if u choose someone who later is DQd or does not attend cus visa type issues? This is the 2nd time ive picked violet and 2nd time he's had Visa issues.
On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote: For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues.
Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew.
Except that he did after being denied re-entry after Season 1. Are you intentionally ignoring facts at this point?
Did you read the quote ? let me re-print it for you "why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues."
There was nothing about 'after season 1', because the poster prolly already knew the answer to that: he would have been prohibited to change region as per Blizzard rules. So the only rational understanding of that statement was the face value of it... why violet chose the WCS AM region [ at all, to start with ] when he [allegedly] knew he's _going to_ have visa issues.
Eh, but what do I know... american english is not my native language, I clearly must be missing some 'subtle' nuances.
Violet has been been having issues with getting his Visa denied since Jan 2013, according to his manager, CSN Andrew. That is 3 months before WCS AM Season 1 2013. So Violet knew that there was a chance he would not be able to compete in the WCS AM offline section, due to these Visa issues. Knowing of these Visa issues, Violet should have entered WCS KR because he already was in Korea and had been since Dec 2012.
I thought that WCS never being played anywhere but in California in the future was implied, but that seems to have flown over your head.
It does not change the fact that the rational you used to justify that position do no hold waters.
The logistical possibility of having the finals in Toronto is non-existant. NASL/Blizzard/WCS is only going to lose money by doing it, so why bother?
oh... so it is a 'because I said so' kind of argument ? never mind then.
On August 05 2013 08:37 AgentW wrote:
On August 05 2013 08:28 shmget wrote:
On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote: For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues.
Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew.
Except that he did after being denied re-entry after Season 1. Are you intentionally ignoring facts at this point?
Did you read the quote ? let me re-print it for you "why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues."
There was nothing about 'after season 1', because the poster prolly already knew the answer to that: he would have been prohibited to change region as per Blizzard rules. So the only rational understanding of that statement was the face value of it... why violet chose the WCS AM region [ at all, to start with ] when he [allegedly] knew he's _going to_ have visa issues.
Eh, but what do I know... american english is not my native language, I clearly must be missing some 'subtle' nuances.
Violet has been been having issues with getting his Visa denied since Jan 2013, according to his manager, CSN Andrew. That is 3 months before WCS AM Season 1 2013. So Violet knew that there was a chance he would not be able to compete in the WCS NA offline section, due to these Visa issues. Knowing of these Visa issues, Violet should have entered WCS KR because he already was in Korea and had been since Dec 2012.
Having your Visa squared away should be a requirement for even competing in the qualifiers. Situations like this are the result of bad foresight.
Violet is one of the few Koreans who has a real affinity with NA, who actually lived there for a period etc.
It's a shame about his visa situation, but it's unfair to make out like Violet is coming for easy money, when pretty much out of most of the Korean WCS NA players he has contributed the most to that actual scene.
WCS needs rules to deal with people who try to compete in regions they can't get visas for. This is not acceptable for the people who were knocked out.
I mean on one hand it's totally reasonable to penalize violet for this, it's a dick move to take up spots in a tournament you know there's a chance you can't even go to.
On the other hand, I do feel bad for him.
Edit: And NASL shouldn't have to up and move their tournament to another country because of players like violet having visa issues. The Chinese issues are a concern, but that's on Blizzard for ignoring pretty much the entire China/SEA region.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
I think it's really silly of azubu/csn/violet to sign up for season 2 given all that information.
On August 05 2013 11:19 blobrus wrote: I mean on one hand it's totally reasonable to penalize violet for this, it's a dick move to take up spots in a tournament you know there's a chance you can't even go to.
On the other hand, I do feel bad for him.
Edit: And NASL shouldn't have to up and move their tournament to another country because of players like violet having visa issues. The Chinese issues are a concern, but that's on Blizzard for ignoring pretty much the entire China/SEA region.
Why not ? it is WCS America, not WCS USA. There is no reason for the finals not to occurs anywhere in the Americas. And it is not like that Visa crap is restricted to China/SEA... anyone south of the US border would have just as hard a time to get a Visa.
I find it amazing the lack of ability of some to put themselves in the other's shoes... That's called the Golden Rule: if the role were reverse what would be your reaction ? IF the USA were dominating the scene and a bunch of them could not make it to Korea, for example, because of Visa issue... how would you react ? would you blame the US players ?
Edit: Apparently Jim got his visa... great news... so it boils down to only Violet. So things are not _that_ bad after all.... sicne Violet situation seems to be a bit more complicated than the 2 chineses players, which surely could not have been accused of allegedly 'breaking the law'.
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
Yeah.
I'm just saying, FlaSh and Life won the most prestigious titles of their respective games when they were 15. If I'm not mistaken Creator was also 15 when he won TSL4 and WCS KR 2012. There's other examples I'm sure. Hell you guys have HeRoMaRiNe who's been pretty good lately right? :/
This only is the case when the event is after 2200 and Heromarine is 16.
On August 04 2013 20:47 Amaril wrote: Thats why its a terrible idea to do SC2 Events in america! All WCS NA Events should be held in Germany or Korea.
Isn't there a minimum age requirement for competing in Germany? That's hardly ideal...
16
Yeah.
I'm just saying, FlaSh and Life won the most prestigious titles of their respective games when they were 15. If I'm not mistaken Creator was also 15 when he won TSL4 and WCS KR 2012. There's other examples I'm sure. Hell you guys have HeRoMaRiNe who's been pretty good lately right? :/
This only is the case when the event is after 2200
I guess that's not so bad then. Good to have that cleared up. ^^
It seems like WCS AM organizers didn't really try to assess viOLet's chances and just went with his management's assurances that he would be able to get things sorted out by season II.
Now that it's happened again, Blizz will probably need to start assessing these things themselves, and decline participation to players who they think have a sufficiently low chance of qualifying for a visa :/
On May 23 2013 18:56 csn_andrew wrote: I posted this on reddit but I will post it here as well to shed some light on the matter.
"First I want to make clear viOLet and myself take full responsibility for not being able to obtain the VISA. However, I will let you know that I have done more research on this subject the past 3 months and we even hired an immigration specialist to assist him after he was denied the first time around back in January.
Also fishing for sympathy? I think you will see once viOLet tweets his statement that you will bite your tongue regarding that remark. He takes full responsibility for this and is very sorry for the effect it will have on WCS, MLG, and his fans.
(directed at someone on reddit)
viOLet was extremely well prepared for his interview and had all the necessary paperwork in order. What it comes down to is that Embassy Officials have an immense amount of power and can basically do what ever they please with no recourse to be taken against them. The process of getting any VISA whether it be a B1/F1/or O1 is not crystal clear. If you go and read VISA experiences on various travel websites you will see that there is no clear defined you need X,Y, and Z and your guaranteed to receive the VISA. There is some mandatory paperwork, and protocols/measures you can take which we prepared amply for but at the end of the day in extreme cases like viOLet's it can hurt your chances regardless.
Also, as I stated above, because viOLet spent more time in the U.S. in 2012 than he did in Korea, that flags him in the system and makes it even more difficult. Also you mention that he was the only Korean not able to come, let me shed some light on this.
For the past 2-3 years all the Koreans have been coming over to the U.S. on ESTA VISA waivers which technically isn't even the correct VISA to be competing for prize money. If customs were aware of this upon their entry it is likely they would get denied access to the U.S.
viOLet's situation is an extreme case because of how much time he has spent in the U.S. previously. The other Koreans come in for the weekend and go back on the Monday after, not creating any red flags with immigration. So before you blame viOLet for dropping the ball, that was in fact not the case at all.
Shit happens, sometimes out of our control."
viOLet's Statement: "First I want to apologize to Blizzard,MLG, but most of all my fans. You know I have match tomorrow for Ro16 in MLG studio, but I can't go because of VISA troubles. I’m so sad my mental is broken… I’m really stuck, make me feel sick that I can’t compete. I trying to my best for other way it just take a little time, I do really apologize again very very sorry to Blizzard, MLG, and my fans.. So sad it is all my fault, I really appreciate that Blizzard and MLG trying to help. I wish the WCS and MLG will be success ending this season!!! Sorry once again."
Violet should be banned from WCS NA now. Maybe he can play in WCS KR again once his year long (?) region commitment is done. Yes, I know its not in direct control of him, but this happened twice now.
On August 05 2013 18:13 Waxangel wrote: It seems like WCS AM organizers didn't really try to assess viOLet's chances and just went with his management's assurances that he would be able to get things sorted out by season II.
Now that it's happened again, Blizz will probably need to start assessing these things themselves, and decline participation to players who they think have a sufficiently low chance of qualifying for a visa :/
Yeah, I bet that won't be fun for anyone. I don't know how you assess that accurately and ahead of time, but its pretty clear that taking players and teams on face value isn’t working out either.
I thought that WCS never being played anywhere but in California in the future was implied, but that seems to have flown over your head.
It does not change the fact that the rational you used to justify that position do no hold waters.
The logistical possibility of having the finals in Toronto is non-existant. NASL/Blizzard/WCS is only going to lose money by doing it, so why bother?
oh... so it is a 'because I said so' kind of argument ? never mind then.
On August 05 2013 08:37 AgentW wrote:
On August 05 2013 08:28 shmget wrote:
On August 05 2013 06:57 mki wrote: For me the bigger issue is:
why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues.
Maybe that is a hint that he did not, in fact, knew.
Except that he did after being denied re-entry after Season 1. Are you intentionally ignoring facts at this point?
Did you read the quote ? let me re-print it for you "why did Violet decided to play in the AM region instead of EU or KR if he knew he's going to have visa issues."
There was nothing about 'after season 1', because the poster prolly already knew the answer to that: he would have been prohibited to change region as per Blizzard rules. So the only rational understanding of that statement was the face value of it... why violet chose the WCS AM region [ at all, to start with ] when he [allegedly] knew he's _going to_ have visa issues.
Eh, but what do I know... american english is not my native language, I clearly must be missing some 'subtle' nuances.
Violet has been been having issues with getting his Visa denied since Jan 2013, according to his manager, CSN Andrew. That is 3 months before WCS AM Season 1 2013. So Violet knew that there was a chance he would not be able to compete in the WCS NA offline section, due to these Visa issues. Knowing of these Visa issues, Violet should have entered WCS KR because he already was in Korea and had been since Dec 2012.
Having your Visa squared away should be a requirement for even competing in the qualifiers. Situations like this are the result of bad foresight.
Actually, I think it is very country dependent. For some countries, you have to showed that you have qualified for the tournament to even be considered for the VISA process. So I am not sure your idea would be feasible.
On May 23 2013 18:56 csn_andrew wrote: I posted this on reddit but I will post it here as well to shed some light on the matter.
"First I want to make clear viOLet and myself take full responsibility for not being able to obtain the VISA. However, I will let you know that I have done more research on this subject the past 3 months and we even hired an immigration specialist to assist him after he was denied the first time around back in January.
Also fishing for sympathy? I think you will see once viOLet tweets his statement that you will bite your tongue regarding that remark. He takes full responsibility for this and is very sorry for the effect it will have on WCS, MLG, and his fans.
(directed at someone on reddit)
viOLet was extremely well prepared for his interview and had all the necessary paperwork in order. What it comes down to is that Embassy Officials have an immense amount of power and can basically do what ever they please with no recourse to be taken against them. The process of getting any VISA whether it be a B1/F1/or O1 is not crystal clear. If you go and read VISA experiences on various travel websites you will see that there is no clear defined you need X,Y, and Z and your guaranteed to receive the VISA. There is some mandatory paperwork, and protocols/measures you can take which we prepared amply for but at the end of the day in extreme cases like viOLet's it can hurt your chances regardless.
Also, as I stated above, because viOLet spent more time in the U.S. in 2012 than he did in Korea, that flags him in the system and makes it even more difficult. Also you mention that he was the only Korean not able to come, let me shed some light on this.
For the past 2-3 years all the Koreans have been coming over to the U.S. on ESTA VISA waivers which technically isn't even the correct VISA to be competing for prize money. If customs were aware of this upon their entry it is likely they would get denied access to the U.S.
viOLet's situation is an extreme case because of how much time he has spent in the U.S. previously. The other Koreans come in for the weekend and go back on the Monday after, not creating any red flags with immigration. So before you blame viOLet for dropping the ball, that was in fact not the case at all.
Shit happens, sometimes out of our control."
viOLet's Statement: "First I want to apologize to Blizzard,MLG, but most of all my fans. You know I have match tomorrow for Ro16 in MLG studio, but I can't go because of VISA troubles. I’m so sad my mental is broken… I’m really stuck, make me feel sick that I can’t compete. I trying to my best for other way it just take a little time, I do really apologize again very very sorry to Blizzard, MLG, and my fans.. So sad it is all my fault, I really appreciate that Blizzard and MLG trying to help. I wish the WCS and MLG will be success ending this season!!! Sorry once again."
Thanks for the post.. but that does not clear up if is actually 'overstayed' a given visa. The only thing that is said for sure his that Violet as been 'flagged' for spending a lot of time in the US, but you can get that even without over-staying any visa. iow it is not clear at all that Violet has broken any immigration law.
I read Violet 'It is all my fault' as a cultural thing, meaning: 'it is not my management fault', not an admission of having broken any laws.
On May 23 2013 18:56 csn_andrew wrote: I posted this on reddit but I will post it here as well to shed some light on the matter.
"First I want to make clear viOLet and myself take full responsibility for not being able to obtain the VISA. However, I will let you know that I have done more research on this subject the past 3 months and we even hired an immigration specialist to assist him after he was denied the first time around back in January.
Also fishing for sympathy? I think you will see once viOLet tweets his statement that you will bite your tongue regarding that remark. He takes full responsibility for this and is very sorry for the effect it will have on WCS, MLG, and his fans.
(directed at someone on reddit)
viOLet was extremely well prepared for his interview and had all the necessary paperwork in order. What it comes down to is that Embassy Officials have an immense amount of power and can basically do what ever they please with no recourse to be taken against them. The process of getting any VISA whether it be a B1/F1/or O1 is not crystal clear. If you go and read VISA experiences on various travel websites you will see that there is no clear defined you need X,Y, and Z and your guaranteed to receive the VISA. There is some mandatory paperwork, and protocols/measures you can take which we prepared amply for but at the end of the day in extreme cases like viOLet's it can hurt your chances regardless.
Also, as I stated above, because viOLet spent more time in the U.S. in 2012 than he did in Korea, that flags him in the system and makes it even more difficult. Also you mention that he was the only Korean not able to come, let me shed some light on this.
For the past 2-3 years all the Koreans have been coming over to the U.S. on ESTA VISA waivers which technically isn't even the correct VISA to be competing for prize money. If customs were aware of this upon their entry it is likely they would get denied access to the U.S.
viOLet's situation is an extreme case because of how much time he has spent in the U.S. previously. The other Koreans come in for the weekend and go back on the Monday after, not creating any red flags with immigration. So before you blame viOLet for dropping the ball, that was in fact not the case at all.
Shit happens, sometimes out of our control."
viOLet's Statement: "First I want to apologize to Blizzard,MLG, but most of all my fans. You know I have match tomorrow for Ro16 in MLG studio, but I can't go because of VISA troubles. I’m so sad my mental is broken… I’m really stuck, make me feel sick that I can’t compete. I trying to my best for other way it just take a little time, I do really apologize again very very sorry to Blizzard, MLG, and my fans.. So sad it is all my fault, I really appreciate that Blizzard and MLG trying to help. I wish the WCS and MLG will be success ending this season!!! Sorry once again."
Thanks for the post.. but that does not clear up if is actually 'overstayed' a given visa. The only thing that is said for sure his that Violet as been 'flagged' for spending a lot of time in the US, but you can get that even without over-staying any visa. iow it is not clear at all that Violet has broken any immigration law.
I read Violet 'It is all my fault' as a cultural thing, meaning: 'it is not my management fault', not an admission of having broken any laws.
On August 04 2013 23:44 tree.hugger wrote: This should surprise nobody. Last time the US let viOlet in, he abused his visa and overstayed. He broke the law. That's their perspective and it happens to be correct. I know online we're all one big happy family, but countries take this stuff seriously. viOlet and his management really screwed up. Honestly, viOlet should probably try to switch regions, because it's going to continue to be hard/impossible for him to get into the US for years.
Your information is just plain wrong. viOlet NEVER broke any US laws during any of his stays in the United States. "Their" perspective is that even though he did not break the law, and he was well within the technical rights to stay when and as long as he did, it was still suspicious that he stayed for the lengths of times he did. The US has the right to deny anyone at their own discretion, regardless of whether a law was actually broken or not. "Right to deny anyone service" applies to them as well as US businesses. To say viOlet broke the law without any actual facts is purely speculative and damages more than it helps. Sometimes it is better to not say anything at all.
No, he overstayed.
I remember thinking when he was living here, "How is he staying here so long on what's probably a visa-waiver that he used to get in?". I thought he might have signed up for an educational program and changed his status, but he hadn't. His rights were to stay in the US for 3 months. He stayed far longer than that. When you overstay your status, it becomes extremely difficult to get back in the country once you leave, which is what happened to him.
What first hand knowledge or facts of the situation do you know? He stayed on an ESTA waiver, which allows you to stay for 3 months at a time (you are correct there). However, the time resets when you leave the country for a certain amount of time. If you do your homework, you will realize that he always had a foreign (European or otherwise) event that reset the waiver to 90 days. Going to those events for that 5-7 days allowed him to come back to the USA and stay for a brand new 90 days before resetting the waiver again. In accordance to the laws and permissions granted to the ESTA, he was within his rights to stay the lengths of time he did.
You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
On August 04 2013 20:13 Kyselin wrote: Is it easier to get a visa for Canada or the US ? Guess if that's the case Canada should host the NA finals.
if you overstay your visa in Canada -- like Violet did in America -- you also dont get an easy time getting a visa. Violet broke the law, or rather, his manager allowed Violet to break the law.
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
On August 04 2013 22:48 Spectralx wrote: Region Lock for heavens sake please.
What region do you lock Chinese players into? Or Australians? Or South Africans? Or Euros in the US, or Americans in Europe? Or Koreans in Europe or the US?
Saying "region lock" is the most pointless thing in the world and IMO should be something that there's a rule against.
China, it has it's own scene, give it the support it deserves.
Until 3 weeks ago China didn't have a HotS scene at all officially, since it hadn't been cleared and released, and we had already started this round of WCS.
As many people said initially, this whole WCS thing hasn't been fully thought through, they launched it too soon, and it's still having issues. Region locking doesn't solve those issues without a whole lot of other work as well/beforehand, so just saying "Region lock for heavens sake please" is pointless and not at all helpful.
It's not blizzards fault they have huge issues keeping the game current and having a region for china etc. There is a plethora of Chinese governmental red tape blizzard has to deal with anytime they do anything in china.
My guess would be is that the Crux of why china isn't supported individually probably has something to do with the Blizzard / Chinese Governmental interactions.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now.
I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year.
Where exactly do you get from your certitude about the timeline and about the fact that Violet stayed continuously 90 days or more in the US (which is what would be required to 'overstay' an ESTA visa).
Just for reference, skimming only the list of 'premier tournament' in 2012 Viloet was in tournament in: Brazil in February 8-11 Germay March 6-10 Korea in June 20th (Code S Ro32 group G) Germany in August 14-19 Spain in September 22-23 Korea starting December 17-22
With that schedule it is quite hard (not impossible) to find a continuous 90 days in any given country.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
<sarcasm>Righ. _all_ he has to do is to get a green card... sure. why did he not think of that. </sarcasm> The irony you missed is that the only Korean that are allowed to get a Visa are the one that don't stay at all before or after the tournament.. which is exactly why some are complaining, and some other use as an excuse to hide their deep-rooted protectionism and sens of entitlement.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year.
Where exactly do you get from your certitude about the timeline and about the fact that Violet stayed continuously 90 days or more in the US (which is what would be required to 'overstay' an ESTA visa).
Just for reference, skimming only the list of 'premier tournament' in 2012 Viloet was in tournament in: Brazil in February 8-11 Germay March 6-10 Korea in June 20th (Code S Ro32 group G) Germany in August 14-19 Spain in September 22-23 Korea starting December 17-22
With that schedule it is quite hard (not impossible) to find a continuous 90 days in any given country.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
<sarcasm>Righ. _all_ he has to do is to get a green card... sure. why did he not think of that. </sarcasm> The irony you missed is that the only Korean that are allowed to get a Visa are the one that don't stay at all before or after the tournament.. which is exactly why some are complaining, and some other use as an excuse to hide their deep-rooted protectionism and sens of entitlement.
shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
Until proven otherwise, he did not breach his visa condition. not matter what plansix is saying, getting two 90 days visa 'in a row' - that is physically leaving the country for a day or more in between - Is _not_ illegal. The Embassy can refuse to give you another one at their discretion.. but that refusal does not imply that you did something 'illegal'. yes overstay => denial but the reciprocal is not true.
On August 06 2013 08:07 Plansix wrote: shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point.
That accusing Violet of committing a crime without proof is a bad thing... People are stating as _fact_ that he overstayed a visa, which is indeed something that would get you an automatic denial for another one... iow that he purposefully 'broke the law' and therefore 1/should have know in advance that he would be denied and 2/ deserve it. neither are correct, unless the 'visa overstay' is a proven fact. And no staying 180 days or more on multiple _valid_ visa is not a statutory offense. That is a data point that the Embassy _can_ hold against you to deny you a further visa... but the Embassy is not bound by law to do so (whereas visa overstay is defined and there are statutory punishment associated with it)
On August 06 2013 08:07 Plansix wrote: shmget, what are you trying to prove in this thread? Violet has visa problems, it is fact. It is due to one of two reasons: Either A: he stayed to long in the US, or B: He applied for to many 90 day visa in a shot period of time. He did something to catch the eye of the USCIS and he can't get a visa now. It is fact. I heard about this months and months ago on Live on Three and its only come up again because of WCS NA. Its not really a debatable point.
That accusing Violet of committing a crime without proof is a bad thing... People are stating as _fact_ that he overstayed a visa, which is indeed something that would get you an automatic denial for another one... iow that he purposefully 'broke the law' and therefore 1/should have know in advance that he would be denied and 2/ deserve it. neither are correct, unless the 'visa overstay' is a proven fact. And no staying 180 days or more on multiple _valid_ visa is not a statutory offense. That is a data point that the Embassy _can_ hold against you to deny you a further visa... but the Embassy is not bound by law to do so (whereas visa overstay is defined and there are statutory punishment associated with it)
So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa? Even though he was forced to withdraw last season too? And this evidence must meet your standard of approval?
Until then, you will correct anyone in this thread attempting to discuss the issue who uses language that you do not feel accurately reflects what you feel are the facts?
reading all the stuff about visas I am really glad that we don't have these problems in EU
to be completely honest I would consider moving the WCS NA to Canada or sth where people can get their visas more easily (to be honest I have no idea if it IS easier to get a visa for Canada but I certainly think so)
On August 06 2013 08:20 Plansix wrote: So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa?
That he has been denied a Visa is indeed a fact. the allegation that he 'overstayed' in the legal sens of the term is not an established fact afaik. Therefore claims that 1/ he deserved the 'punishment' for 'breaking the law' and/or 2/ he should have known in advance what the Embassy would decide at its entire discretion are bogus and self-serving.
On August 06 2013 08:20 Plansix wrote: So basically, despite the fact that several members of the community, including R1CH, have said that Violet over used or over stayed his time on the 90 day waiver visa, you will only accept 100% evidence that proves he overstayed or has been denied a visa?
That he has been denied a Visa is indeed a fact. the allegation that he 'overstayed' in the legal sens of the term is not an established fact afaik. Therefore claims that 1/ he deserved the 'punishment' for 'breaking the law' and/or 2/ he should have known in advance what the Embassy would decide at its entire discretion are bogus and self-serving.
If you're so terribly interested, for an actual relevant reason other than being internet police/web lawyer, contact the manager directly. Visa denials are accompanied with specific violations as to what section of law they were in conflict with.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now.
I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be.
His manager shares responsibility, yes. However you cannot just say it wasn't Violet's responsibility too. He is an adult, it is his responsibility to fulfill his obligations wrt visa conditions.
On August 06 2013 00:33 Plansix wrote: R1CH broke this down for people:
On August 05 2013 07:15 R1CH wrote: You are allowed 90 days once you enter, but if you leave before those 90 days are up you're not supposed to come back again until the 90 days is up. Also there is a maximum of 180 days in a year you can stay, and I'm pretty sure violet exceeded that with his multiple trips. You could also argue that he wasn't supposed to use the waiver program since he was 'working' in the country during his time here, but that's a grey-ish area.
To be fair CSN share a lot of the blame here since they should have known this would happen and not let him violate his visa status and jeopardize the possibility of him coming to the US again.
The 90 day waiver visa was not supposed to be used the way Violet is using it. You can't use it to live in the US for half a year. They get super grumpy about that stuff. Its not a violation of the law, but the visa is subject to review and approval and one of the reasons they can deny it is that you misused or abused the waiver visa.
1/ I read that, but that is not what I read out of the govt site that explain the rules. The rules as stated says that you cannot ask for a waiver if you have already a valid visa in place... so if you get in on an ESTA and get out after 40 days... you cannot apply for a _new_ ESTA to re-enter within the next 50 days. but it does not says either that you cannot re-enter at all, since presumably the reason you cannot re-apply to an ESTA is that you already have a valid visa... so you can re-enter but not for 90 days, but for the remainder of the older ESTA visa. The alternative reading is that your original ESTA visa is voided when you exit... that is supported by the fact that the rules explicitly details how to handle 'short trip to a neighboring state (like going to Mexico on a week-end) while in the US under ESTA, stating that you _can_ re-enter under the same visa... and that the 90 clock include the time spend in mexico ( cf: Cicero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule) . If that is the reading, then there is nothing that prevent your to re-apply to a ESTA visa once you left the country...since you do not have a 'valid' visa anymore. No 90 days cool-off or the like is mentioned. It is just that you need to re-apply and are subject to review and possibly denial. Either way neither reading support R1CH statement that you cannot enter more than once in a 90 days period.
2/ the 180 days 'rules' is not mentioned there either... maybe there is such a rules somewhere, but as you said and from what I read that is a soft rule-of-thumb used by the embassy in their evaluation for granting a new visa, not a hard 'break-the-law' rule.
3/ I have no idea what kind of Visa Violet used. the quoted text from CSN says that 'most korean use ESTA'... but there was no specific about what violet did or did not do.
Based on 1/ 2/ and 3/ and based on available information, I think it is libelous to declare that Violet has 'Broken the law'.
4/ The irony here is that Violet is being penalized for doing exactly what the community would want korean to do... which is actually spend significant amount of time and training in the America Region, so that could help the scene. Rather than just commute for very short span of time, just to do a tournament and return to Korea... I mean, one the argument about the whole 'region' thing, was that, in order to get better, locals need to be able to practice and train against high level player.. how best do that than having some of these high level player actually ladder in the region for significant period of time ? iow the longer they stay, the better. PS: as I mentioned earlier in other threads, I find the whole 'native-lock' concept distasteful and counter productive... but I would not mind a laddering requirement in the region you want to compete in.
More then half of what you are talking about is pointless.
violet used a 'Waiver Visa' that allowed him to be in the states for 90 days and typically not to work. He then used that waiver to live in the states and work in the states for over half of a year. He 100% improperly used what he had and now the US government is punishing him for it.
There is no irony people do want Koreans to move to NA if they are going to compete in NA. To move to NA you need to get a proper visa / green card etc. and onward, not half ass it.
Exactly. The waiver program bypasses that standard visa process for the US because we are on good terms with the country in question and do not have a problems with people overstaying their Visas. But you don't fuck with the 90 day visa and you don't get two in a row, or even try to get 3. Thats super bad. Its the same with with Student visas, you don't overstay for any reason. If your finals got pushed back because your professor is retarted and set a final for after your visa expires, you fucking leave and deal with that shit later(this happened to a friend and her professor got in deep shit...the next year when it was resolved). You don't fuck with your visa, or they don't give you a new one.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
It really, really sucks. I don't want the Koreans excluded from WCS NA, but wanted the tournament to more reflect those who have shown a commitment to that particular scene. Violet was one of the chief Koreans of which this is true, Polt is another now.
I can't help but feel this isn't Violet's fault, but the fault of whoever manages him not being on top of this. That's what their job is, they're meant to deal with the bureaucratic issues and free up his time to be the best player that he can be.
His manager shares responsibility, yes. However you cannot just say it wasn't Violet's responsibility too. He is an adult, it is his responsibility to fulfill his obligations wrt visa conditions.
He has ultimate responsibility does Violet, just seems a bit shitty. If his contravention of visa conditions had been properly explained to him, I can't see him just disregarding it. That said, he might well of done.
Agreed, and it was Violet's responsibility to ensure he did not breach his Visa conditions. Yes it sucks, because Violet clearly really loved being in the USA, but this issue could have been avoided with more care and organisation last year.
Until proven otherwise, he did not breach his visa condition. not matter what plansix is saying, getting two 90 days visa 'in a row' - that is physically leaving the country for a day or more in between - Is _not_ illegal. The Embassy can refuse to give you another one at their discretion.. but that refusal does not imply that you did something 'illegal'. yes overstay => denial but the reciprocal is not true.
Excuse me. Violet acted in a way contrary to his visa conditions. Stop pretending otherwise. If he did not, then he would have not been excluded from the US for the last 8 months. If he did not, then Violet and his manager would not be accepting culpability for the situation.
Your posts in this thread have now just degenerated to desperate trolling, for some reason. You seem desperate to find some other explanation other than the actual situation where Violet has accepted responsibility for creating this situation, through his actions last year.
I fully support the US government's decision here.
Obviously, someone who overstays a Visa is a potential terrorist, threat to the United States, threat to freedom, threat to Christian-Judaism believers everywhere, possible hedonist and finally, no friend of mine.
In fact, Violet should be permanently banned from everything, and spend his final days in Guantanamo Bay.
In light of the big immigration debate here in the US, and LoL players being able to use athlete visas, this is unfortunate. But if he has overstayed his visa in the past, then I can't really blame the gov't for not letting him back in. Shame that we're about to give illegals amnesty, but not let Violet play.
On August 06 2013 09:02 BronzeKnee wrote: I fully support the US government's decision here.
Obviously, someone who overstays a Visa is a potential terrorist, threat to the United States, threat to freedom, threat to Christian-Judaism believers everywhere, possible hedonist and finally, no friend of mine.
In fact, Violet should be permanently banned from everything, and spend his final days in Guantanamo Bay.
Everyone he's ever talked to should be monitored, their families waterboarded.
Its the US of A, everyone is a possible terrorist, so I guess violet is regarded as a spy or terrorist. Its sick how disgusting tourists is handled there now, I rather travel to russia or china then the US now days.
EPT
Jaedong vs. 
Ryung
Oz vs. match 1 winner
).
