EPTInterview of David Kim about Balance in IEM - Page 27
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
It really feels first that blizzard is looking at how the game is played but at the same time it looks like they make decisions based on numbers. | ||
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RiSkysc2
696 Posts
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
On August 04 2013 08:59 RiSkysc2 wrote: zvp is absolutely unplayable on some maps. As shown in the korean zvp statistics. Which maps do you think are unplayable from a zerg perspective? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On August 04 2013 02:28 pmp10 wrote: But the problem is that those units do change the bio play and meta-game in pro-scene. Hellbat is the best example as it's drops got incorporated into bio just as hellions have. And not only has hellbat made bio stronger it would also completely dominate TvT. Buffing mech is not risk-free. Sheer amount of buffs/nerfs to other races would require expansion-level of changes. Buffing the right units though can be done quite safely. Sure you can't just go about changing the hellion or the widowmine because those see play in conjunction with bio, as did the hellbat before. But you can quite safely change units or techs which are pretty much mech exclusive as long as you make the buff minor enough that it remains mech exclusive. For example thors are never mixed in with bio now even when a lot of muta are faced. Why would you as widow mines just function better in every aspect as your factory addition to bio. Thus it's really quite safe to give a small nudge to thors AA capability. You wouldn't suddenly see Thor rushes, you wouldn't suddenly see bio + thor dominate in TvZ etc. because the thor is just far from viable in any support role for bio now. Thus it would really only affect mech play which is safe to say won;t suddenly be broken considering how weak it is now. Small nudges to units that are severely underused in non-mirrors is really just safe, at worst they slightly break the barrier of viability and open up the metagame a little bit but broken strats won't suddenly appear as those tactics would otherwise have been decent now already.. Transformation servos same thing, I;ve literally never seen it been used in a pro game. Of course I don;t see every game in a longshot but it;s safe to say it's extremely rare. A small buff would be perfectly safe yet still be interesting enough to entice a little more mech. Tank change is the most risky but honestly they don't really see much play either now. I only see them being used as a counter to some all-ins in TvZ, very rarely in TvP. A small nudge to their stats would be fine really, reintroducing siege tech is riskier as that potentially makes them unusable as this counter to all-ins but could counterbalance a slight buff to their stats nicely. Mech doesn;t need to become completely dominant or a totally viable way to play on every map etc. It would just be nice if some small nudges would lift it's play just a little bit. For example I don;t even think it sees play in 1% of pro TvZ/TvP now if it could reach something like 5-10% that would already be an awesome gain and is really not that hard to achieve without breaking the game and getting into a period of disastrous balance. People always act like balancing is some super difficult tender act but it;s not. The game is fairly robust and they can definately make more changes. Just look at how little impact most patches have had especially when it concerns fringe units. Banshee change or warp prism change didn;t affect much at all, they should just do changes of that small magnitude more often, it keeps the game fresh when some matchups are being a bit stale, which TvP definately is at the moment for example. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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askmc70
United States722 Posts
On August 04 2013 09:37 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Im still waiting on them to say they will consider redesigning protoss. they wont redesign protoss, that shit wont come untill starcraft 3. Taking out forcefields and buffing gateway units will mess up the entire game. It's to late to redesign toss. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 04 2013 08:39 Rabiator wrote: How can you break Siege Tanks with Siege Tanks of your own? How do Vikings break a siege line? That is quite stupid. Also I would advise you to actually READ what someone wrote, because I clearly said "added a lot of tools to break turtle positions with HotS" and everything you listed for Terrans was already part of WoL. Terrans already had something to actually break an opponents siege line: the NUKE. Protoss already had something to break terran siege lines: Blink and hallucinations might be useful as decoys if there are no turrets to detect. Zerg already had something to break terran siege lines: Infested Terran (to be used with friendly fire) and Broodlords. Swarm Hosts are really terrible at breaking Siege lines, because Locusts are slowly advancing and thus easily annihilated by Siege Tanks (well if they are buffed to "useful against non-armored units" again). The only job they can fill is "decoy", but an Infested Terran lobbed at a Siege Tank does that much better and for a smaller investment IMO. If we're to begin advising one another, I'd start on reading your own post before lecturing others to do the same. Your post (and every single nested post it quotes) don't say siege lines, they say "turtled up player." Why on Earth do you assume I suggest a Terran solution purely to TvT? That wouldn't even make sense to introduce a unit and completely break mech in TvT. Needless to say they already have it: the two cheapest, fastest produced units with the most range in the mid-game -- ontop of so many other things. And I'd finish by advising that it's probably even more dumb to suggest Terran by default should receive more turtle breaking units because the other races got some. Terran already has some of the best tools among the races. You might as well should also demand Terran get a new tier 3 unit because Protoss and Zerg got one. That's literally the only premise your argument even has. It really is that ridiculous that you HAVE to throw in "TERRAN GETS NONE" and amidst the tunnel vision you don't realize the implicit point I make in how biased and dumb that statement is. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 04 2013 08:20 Lumi wrote: David Kim looks even more hilariously out of touch here now that this thread is out: July Winrates Fortunately I'm not a GSL level player so I don't think it makes any sense to concern myself with balance as though there aren't plennnnnty of things for me to be working on with my gameplay  Oh wow, I thought Zergs had found a way to get around Widow Mines being insanely cost-efficient (especially for a unit that's good against Lings, banelings and Muta). I guess not. Medivacs are a pain the ass to deal with if you don't have Muta. I thought that Zerg was doing poorly against Terran in macro games but I always assumed it was just bias on my part. o_o But yeah, good job David Kim, those numbers back you up quite well. | ||
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Highways
Australia6106 Posts
Also ZvT is in a bad state, Zerg has like a 30% winrate in proleague. | ||
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 04 2013 18:19 Highways wrote: Redesigning warpgate will solve most of Protoss's problems. Also ZvT is in a bad state, Zerg has like a 30% winrate in proleague. If you get rid of warpgates you have to buff gateway units or else Protoss will really go to shit. But if you overbuff gateway units then sentries make Protoss way too ridiculous so it's kind of a deeper design flaw than that. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On August 04 2013 18:19 Highways wrote: Redesigning warpgate will solve most of Protoss's problems. Also ZvT is in a bad state, Zerg has like a 30% winrate in proleague. Never use proleague stats... They come from a very small pool of players who's main way to qualify is being part of some team. The stats there differ enormously from other events which is likely just the result of the selection, Kespa teams just happen to have many good protosses and few good zergs | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 04 2013 19:19 Incognoto wrote: If you get rid of warpgates you have to buff gateway units or else Protoss will really go to shit. But if you overbuff gateway units then sentries make Protoss way too ridiculous so it's kind of a deeper design flaw than that. why do you have to buff gateway units for that? You have to buff the build times (because they are ridiculous without warpgate) and you have to buff Protoss harassment (as it is ridiculous without warpgate) and Protoss mapcontrol tools (as they are ridiculous without warpgate) and defenses (as they are ridiculous without warpgate). Of course you can also buff gateway units and force Protoss even more into bigass army play as they will be lacking all the things from above, but instead have an even stronger deathball. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 04 2013 20:39 Big J wrote: why do you have to buff gateway units for that? You have to buff the build times (because they are ridiculous without warpgate) and you have to buff Protoss harassment (as it is ridiculous without warpgate) and Protoss mapcontrol tools (as they are ridiculous without warpgate) and defenses (as they are ridiculous without warpgate). Of course you can also buff gateway units and force Protoss even more into bigass army play as they will be lacking all the things from above, but instead have an even stronger deathball. buff gateway units, nerf forcefield, nerf colossous, nerf warpgate would be so much funnier | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 04 2013 20:51 Foxxan wrote: buff gateway units, nerf forcefield, nerf colossous, nerf warpgate would be so much funnier And why, if I may ask? Protoss harassment will be inexistent. Protoss robo/stargate units will not add anything to what the buffed zealot, buffed stalker, buffed templar, buffed archon already do. Finally, stronger blink stalkers. No need to produce anything else but stalkers and zealots anymore. Is that what the game needs? Stalkers don't have high dps for a reason, and it's not warpgate. It's that it is a fast, ranged, antiair-capable unit with a mighty blink ability, shields and a ton of HP. It's not particularily vulnerable to splash. Somewhere there need to be drawbacks to that unit, and it's that it's not a combat beast as well. Zealots have pretty high dps and health already. Templar? Do they need a buff? Archons? Finally more zealot/archon allins? Just think about how TvP and ZvP play out and how often a Protoss sits in his bases and only defends and does not use the ability to warp in close to the opponent at all. Then he walks out with a bigass timing attack. And now you buff that timing attack, but make the reinforcements come in slower. Well, the initial attack will be just stronger. The reinforcements will be 30seconds delayed, but also stronger. I don't know why this would be such a great idea. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 04 2013 21:17 Big J wrote: And why, if I may ask? Protoss harassment will be inexistent. Protoss robo/stargate units will not add anything to what the buffed zealot, buffed stalker, buffed templar, buffed archon already do. Finally, stronger blink stalkers. No need to produce anything else but stalkers and zealots anymore. Is that what the game needs? Stalkers don't have high dps for a reason, and it's not warpgate. It's that it is a fast, ranged, antiair-capable unit with a mighty blink ability, shields and a ton of HP. It's not particularily vulnerable to splash. Somewhere there need to be drawbacks to that unit, and it's that it's not a combat beast as well. Zealots have pretty high dps and health already. Templar? Do they need a buff? Archons? Finally more zealot/archon allins? Just think about how TvP and ZvP play out and how often a Protoss sits in his bases and only defends and does not use the ability to warp in close to the opponent at all. Then he walks out with a bigass timing attack. And now you buff that timing attack, but make the reinforcements come in slower. Well, the initial attack will be just stronger. The reinforcements will be 30seconds delayed, but also stronger. I don't know why this would be such a great idea. Buff stalker and zealot, nerf forcefield (make it so opponent can kill it) and maybe give forcefield cooldown with no mana , nerf colossous (make it no deathball materia, make it a more micro unit, nerf warpgate BLink - nerf or redesign, someability which stalker can move up and down cliffs atleast Charge - remove it and give passive movement speed or redesign it, replace it with leap or why not give blink to zealot lol This would accomplish alot of great and fun stuff for protoss and other races 1) Protoss can now move out with a smaller force and trade cost effeciently 2) With reduced colossous firepower, protoss do not wanna sit passive and wati for a big armee or have the correct unit composition 3) With unit composition removed, now terran do not need unit composition and zerg do not need unit composition, will make all matchups involvingprotoss more dynamic 4) with nerfed forcefield, especially zerg can now engage (properly), they can use micro and so can protoss, makes it alot more fun Dunno what to do with storm, archon Maybe redesign archon? Its tanky with good damage now, its to all around You take a archon over stalker now, with buffed stalker if this doesnt change do something about archon So all in all, it would do so much for starcraft2 overall edit: Well you state robo and stargate will not get any use Tbh, colossous would end up as a support unit which is good and not become the dominant unit it is now Immortal is still good vs armored units You still need observer and warpprism Andabout stargate, while i am at it redesign that phoenix. A flying antiflying unit with aoe but greater cost and micro unit This just come on top of my head, i truly believe it would be so much morefun You worry about timing attack and stuff if it becomes a hardcore problem then do something about that But imagine if terran doesnt need to worry about making tons of vikings. Hmm how many colossous do he have? 10? or 0? or 3? Dont worry now, instead terran can go barack mode, thats the main focus Widowmines might become good And about ghost, if storm gets nerfed, so shouldthe ghost they should both be support units now ghost is supergood you want that unit over marauders and marines if u can afford it Just think about tvp, instead of camp camp camp and look at eachother, and be scared to engage forterran because of defensive storms and protoss be scared of defensive emps, it will clash now and become actionpackedsciencefiction | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 04 2013 22:19 Foxxan wrote: Buff stalker and zealot, nerf forcefield (make it so opponent can kill it) and maybe give forcefield cooldown with no mana , nerf colossous (make it no deathball materia, make it a more micro unit, nerf warpgate BLink - nerf or redesign, someability which stalker can move up and down cliffs atleast Charge - remove it and give passive movement speed or redesign it, replace it with leap or why not give blink to zealot lol This would accomplish alot of great and fun stuff for protoss and other races 1) Protoss can now move out with a smaller force and trade cost effeciently 2) With reduced colossous firepower, protoss do not wanna sit passive and wati for a big armee or have the correct unit composition 3) With unit composition removed, now terran do not need unit composition and zerg do not need unit composition, will make all matchups involvingprotoss more dynamic 4) with nerfed forcefield, especially zerg can now engage (properly), they can use micro and so can protoss, makes it alot more fun Dunno what to do with storm, archon Maybe redesign archon? Its tanky with good damage now, its to all around You take a archon over stalker now, with buffed stalker if this doesnt change do something about archon So all in all, it would do so much for starcraft2 overall edit: Well you state robo and stargate will not get any use Tbh, colossous would end up as a support unit which is good and not become the dominant unit it is now Immortal is still good vs armored units You still need observer and warpprism Andabout stargate, while i am at it redesign that phoenix. A flying antiflying unit with aoe but greater cost and micro unit This just come on top of my head, i truly believe it would be so much morefun You worry about timing attack and stuff if it becomes a hardcore problem then do something about that But imagine if terran doesnt need to worry about making tons of vikings. Hmm how many colossous do he have? 10? or 0? or 3? Dont worry now, instead terran can go barack mode, thats the main focus Widowmines might become good And about ghost, if storm gets nerfed, so shouldthe ghost they should both be support units now ghost is supergood you want that unit over marauders and marines if u can afford it Just think about tvp, instead of camp camp camp and look at eachother, and be scared to engage forterran because of defensive storms and protoss be scared of defensive emps, it will clash now and become actionpackedsciencefiction 1) If Protoss trades costefficiently, what's keeping them back from doing 6gateway allins, just like they did 6warpgate allins? Just that the new 6gateway allins won't be as allin anymore, due to massing gateway units being a good thing. 2) Why? Protoss sit on Templartech without Colossi in TvP as well. They don't need Colossus now. And when the army is equally strong without them, what hinders Protoss from playing exactly the same way as right now? 3) You will always need the proper unit compositions in every matchup. Dunno what you are talking about. They will just change from "needing to counter colossi/sentries" to "needing to build the stronger counters for stalkers/zealots, as roach/hydra/zergling, or MMM won't cut it anymore". You'd be forced to bring out the hellbats, ghosts and infestors, ultralisks instead of the vipers, corruptors, mutas and vikings. It's just trading one counter vs another. 4) I don't know what micro you are talking about in PvZ. there is not a lot to micro for the zerg units without forcefields. They are much faster and have shorter range, thus the optimal way to engage is surround, amove. Right now a lot of the micro is avoiding getting forcefielded and forcefielding properly. And for Protoss, all that's left is blinking. You can't kite anything in either of those compositions once zerg speed upgrades are done, and there is no splash around which would force you to split. There are also no powerunits around (anymore) which you would need to snipe. It would be like those horrible roach/hydra vs MMM engagements. a move into each other, one side will come out ahead (and the other composition will usually not get played because it is underpowered). Terrans not worrying about Colossi... why the fuck build Colossi if your opponent beats it with whatever? I partly agree for the sentry, but without a low tier splash option for Protoss there is no way around keeping it. why would mines become good? mines get countered by stalkers, more stalkers means less mines. The phoenix is a great unit, great fun to play and watch. It should be kept as it is. I mean, I'm playing starbow from time to time (it's a great game, you may wanna check it out). There, there are no sentries and warpgate is weaker. Still, gateway units could not be made stronger, as they just started to rape everything and Protoss is still dependend on tech units (like reavers). The balancing is a little different, but generally Gateway units cannot even be close to costefficient against barracks or hydralisk/zergling kind of tech, or Z/T early game is deeply in trouble and things like bio-play would be simply not viable. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
so they trade even, with good engagements they can become cost effecient, but so can the other player 2) Hm this must be new, with equal armee against terran without colossous protoss die easy (if terran have ghost obviously) this has always been this case unless protoss has evolved , still if changes is made to redesign protoss take a deeper look at storm and emp, the role emp vs storm is to big imo, the tvp matchup turns out to be to focused around those two 3) Yes ofcourse but right now with protoss its 80% unit composition ( i took that number from my head) and with changes to protoss lets say 30% Also when i say protoss would become dynamic i obviously mean more dynamic inase u didnt understand, cuz right now its obviously 1% dynamic atleast. Same reason people like macro games, everything becomes to a bigger degree (decision making, engagement, multitasking) right now when someone goes super allin you still have all these things but to a much smaller degree 4) Right now, all zerg can do is bait forcefield, maybe rely on luck for protoss to do bad forcefields Its to much power for the protoss, and without forcefield now zerg gets the upperhand (if we imagine protoss goes 2base all-in) against 3base zerg Its always cat and mouse as protoss Without forcefields or nerfed forcefields zerg can decide to do sustained pressure against protoss, so macrowar starts fast as hell But u are right zerg is not like terran bio which can do plenty of micro, its as you said surround, amove mostly Only it would open up more power for zerg, right now if zergs gets trapped in forcefields he dies with plenty of units So it opens up more room for kiteing, for hit and run for baiting etc I said pretty clear redesign or remove blink andfor zealot charge to to open up more micro for them, blink for stalker right now is pretty lame as zerg, zerg becomes powerless more or less (to a degree yo), just imagine if stalker is gonna blink it takes 3seconds for him to do that after u press blink button Just one little sample Terrans not worrying about Colossi... why the fuck build Colossi if your opponent beats it with whatever? You seem to be so i dont know, so narrow minded, you try so hard to turn everything around I dont have this set in stone yet, but if it becomes a support unit then terran needs to worry but not in a degree as of now If protoss needs aoe ability, make the immortal have two modes like the thor First mode: is the present one second mode: aoe ability ground And mines would become good because protoss would rely more on zealots and stalkers and stalkers dont really counter widowmines ( a stalker needs to right click a wm to not make it shoot back) so imagine if terran focus on widowmines he plants 25 widowmines how can stalker counter now when bio force is there to? I persoanlly think phoenix is kinda fun to, but it is to good unit if protoss gets redesigned and they come out so fast vs zerg, even if he goes plenty of spores he can still kill alot I might check starbow out it seems to be arcade game in sc2 so i might | ||
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