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On July 30 2013 08:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I enjoy SC2. I enjoy playing it, I enjoy watching it. I enjoy it significantly more now than when the game first launched, which I think is a sign that the overall trend, though not without some stumbles along the way, has ultimately been to move towards a better game. So I wouldn't be a fan of ripping it up by the roots and starting it over. Could there be tweaks and changes made to the betterment of the game? Sure. But a full blown TFT style revamp? No thanks.
I am thinking exactly the same way but there will always be people who dislike a game and have enough passion to hate it on every opportunity they get.
Looking way back there was the same thing when Quake 2 was realeased which got a lot of hate in the german szene because it changed some things compared to the first game. And there were people whining about this game decades later.
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I think it was a good interview, but am a bit disappointed by David Kim.
Making mech more viable seems like a good idea, making it easier to use seems very stupid. At the same time I really don't like to see all those bio + widow mine games vs zerg. 1-2 lucky widow mine hits can be insta GG, which seems lame.
And Protoss.... I really don't know why David Kim hates Protoss. I mean it's quite obvious that Protoss does not have a lot of potential left for Top players to use. No amount of skill can make oracles useful after a few turrets have been placed.
The warp prism buff was useful but does not really offer new options it just makes harrassment with warpprism more viable.
Protoss gameplay is still rather limited.
And as said before protoss has a few critical weaknesses. Any terran attack before templar or colo can be instant death. Failing to take a 3rd, can mean GG quickly. A nexus snipe is GG most times while almost impossible to prevent in many case.
A muta switch can kill a protoss instantly with no chance to recover.
Any big worker loss, from muta, widow mine, hellbat is mostly deadly.
It's not just for fun that we see so many 2 base plays - it's the most effective way to play apparently and that says a lot about how well designed protoss is.
I wonder if David Kim even cares if Protoss is fun to play?
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On July 30 2013 03:34 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 02:35 Albinoswordfish wrote:On July 29 2013 17:02 kasumimi wrote:On July 29 2013 14:53 ETisME wrote:On July 29 2013 13:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
You don't have to want a BW remake, or have a WC3-esque game to think that 'terrible terrible damage' can make for some really anti-climatic games, both as a player and as an observer. would you really expect blizzard to change anything this big? They balanced and designed the units to function at this pacing of the game. HOTS was the perfect opportunity to change fundamental flaws in game design, which is exactly what blizzard did when TFT (the frozen throne WAR3 expansion) came. Hero design, armor types, unit design, damage types, buildings, race fundamentals, economy, everything was drastically changed, towards the best. But the changes is HOTS were, like everything else, underwhelming. They didn't even bother changing the in-game timer... Saying that "people are use to playing like this" is not even an argument at this point. It's just a poorly labeled excuse to avoid addressing critical issues. Or it's indirectly admitting that "we are happy with SC2 as it is now, there is no reason to change anything". Take a look at how LoL's lead designers address issues and how they interact with the community. The difference with Blizzard's people is light years away. SC2 is on autopilot and these people know it. We are three years in and it's clear It will never become an esport of BWs or LoL's caliber; and this is what personally hurts the most. I completely agree with this. I really want SC2 to become great but so far it has been lack luster. They had a great opportunity to change the dynamic of the change that was clearly lacking in WOL but simply just added a bunch of units that didn't change the core problems. I've said this before and I'll say it again, the biggest problem with SC2 right now is Protoss. The race is just awfully designed. As long as Warpgate exists the way it does now and Gateway units are really weak Protoss will continue to be the race about builds/timings/all-ins. Protoss cannot split their army because Gateway units suck by themselves which leads to deathball vs deathball games with any match up involving Protoss most of the time. Warpgates make any timings with Protoss an all or nothing strategy. I'm actually working on a balance change map (just for fun on my part, mind you) on Star Station. What I basically did was remove both warpgates and forcefields from the protoss and gave stalkers a buff in burst and dps damage. Should I get around to finishing it and publishing it so people can give it a try?
Lol nice!
That's exactly what I did in the HotS Beta!
Although I did buff guardian Shield and raise Stalker damage while lowering their HP
Also gave zealots more HP.
Oh and I think I lowered Colossus Damage in exchange for faster attackspeed (less effective vs armored units).
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On July 30 2013 09:55 Freeborn wrote:
And Protoss.... I really don't know why David Kim hates Protoss. I mean it's quite obvious that Protoss does not have a lot of potential left for Top players to use. No amount of skill can make oracles useful after a few turrets have been placed.
The warp prism buff was useful but does not really offer new options it just makes harrassment with warpprism more viable.
Protoss gameplay is still rather limited.
And as said before protoss has a few critical weaknesses. Any terran attack before templar or colo can be instant death. Failing to take a 3rd, can mean GG quickly. A nexus snipe is GG most times while almost impossible to prevent in many case.
A muta switch can kill a protoss instantly with no chance to recover.
Any big worker loss, from muta, widow mine, hellbat is mostly deadly.
It's not just for fun that we see so many 2 base plays - it's the most effective way to play apparently and that says a lot about how well designed protoss is.
I wonder if David Kim even cares if Protoss is fun to play?
The flaws of protoss are so deep that small fixes arent going to make a difference.
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On July 30 2013 09:55 Freeborn wrote:
I think it was a good interview, but am a bit disappointed by David Kim.
Making mech more viable seems like a good idea, making it easier to use seems very stupid. At the same time I really don't like to see all those bio + widow mine games vs zerg. 1-2 lucky widow mine hits can be insta GG, which seems lame.
And Protoss.... I really don't know why David Kim hates Protoss. I mean it's quite obvious that Protoss does not have a lot of potential left for Top players to use. No amount of skill can make oracles useful after a few turrets have been placed.
The warp prism buff was useful but does not really offer new options it just makes harrassment with warpprism more viable.
Protoss gameplay is still rather limited.
And as said before protoss has a few critical weaknesses. Any terran attack before templar or colo can be instant death. Failing to take a 3rd, can mean GG quickly. A nexus snipe is GG most times while almost impossible to prevent in many case.
A muta switch can kill a protoss instantly with no chance to recover.
Any big worker loss, from muta, widow mine, hellbat is mostly deadly.
It's not just for fun that we see so many 2 base plays - it's the most effective way to play apparently and that says a lot about how well designed protoss is.
I wonder if David Kim even cares if Protoss is fun to play?
I actually think Protoss is by far the most improved of the 3 races in HotS. And its worth noting that at this point that many of the best Protoss players in the world, like Rain and First for example, are actually known for playing multitask heavy macro games in all 3 matchups. All-inning may be the easiest way to play Protoss, but it doesn't seem to be the most effective, not the way it did in WoL.
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On July 30 2013 09:55 Freeborn wrote:
I think it was a good interview, but am a bit disappointed by David Kim.
Making mech more viable seems like a good idea, making it easier to use seems very stupid. At the same time I really don't like to see all those bio + widow mine games vs zerg. 1-2 lucky widow mine hits can be insta GG, which seems lame.
And Protoss.... I really don't know why David Kim hates Protoss. I mean it's quite obvious that Protoss does not have a lot of potential left for Top players to use. No amount of skill can make oracles useful after a few turrets have been placed.
The warp prism buff was useful but does not really offer new options it just makes harrassment with warpprism more viable.
Protoss gameplay is still rather limited.
And as said before protoss has a few critical weaknesses. Any terran attack before templar or colo can be instant death. Failing to take a 3rd, can mean GG quickly. A nexus snipe is GG most times while almost impossible to prevent in many case.
A muta switch can kill a protoss instantly with no chance to recover.
Any big worker loss, from muta, widow mine, hellbat is mostly deadly.
It's not just for fun that we see so many 2 base plays - it's the most effective way to play apparently and that says a lot about how well designed protoss is.
I wonder if David Kim even cares if Protoss is fun to play?
I totally agree with you. You understand more the game than David Kim.
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Northern Ireland27462 Posts
On July 30 2013 13:14 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:55 Freeborn wrote:
I think it was a good interview, but am a bit disappointed by David Kim.
Making mech more viable seems like a good idea, making it easier to use seems very stupid. At the same time I really don't like to see all those bio + widow mine games vs zerg. 1-2 lucky widow mine hits can be insta GG, which seems lame.
And Protoss.... I really don't know why David Kim hates Protoss. I mean it's quite obvious that Protoss does not have a lot of potential left for Top players to use. No amount of skill can make oracles useful after a few turrets have been placed.
The warp prism buff was useful but does not really offer new options it just makes harrassment with warpprism more viable.
Protoss gameplay is still rather limited.
And as said before protoss has a few critical weaknesses. Any terran attack before templar or colo can be instant death. Failing to take a 3rd, can mean GG quickly. A nexus snipe is GG most times while almost impossible to prevent in many case.
A muta switch can kill a protoss instantly with no chance to recover.
Any big worker loss, from muta, widow mine, hellbat is mostly deadly.
It's not just for fun that we see so many 2 base plays - it's the most effective way to play apparently and that says a lot about how well designed protoss is.
I wonder if David Kim even cares if Protoss is fun to play? I totally agree with you. You understand more the game than David Kim.
Why have an opinion? Let's just bow before dayvie huh?
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The only way of fixing protoss (making room for gateway army buff) is altering warp gate / force fields.
There's another thing: WHY SO MANY double attacks? They double back-fire once upgrade advantage is lost, or unit has natural armour.
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I just hate playing against Protoss as a Diamond/Masters Zerg, because of that snowball effect that Protoss has where once they start steamrolling my base (no matter how well I played or ahead I was earlier) I get wiped. It makes for really turtly games where I feel like I have no control.
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Looking way back there was the same thing when Quake 2 was realeased which got a lot of hate in the german szene because it changed some things compared to the first game. And there were people whining about this game decades later.
Aah reminds me of Quake 2 CTF, the best game in history. How is it even possible to hate such brilliancy? 
Anyway, carry on.
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On July 30 2013 10:18 awesomoecalypse wrote:
All-inning may be the easiest way to play Protoss, but it doesn't seem to be the most effective, not the way it did in WoL.
Protoss players have won 2 Premier Tournaments in HOTS (Terran and Zerg have both won 5 for comparison). Hero won WCS AM, and Stardust won Dreamhack Summer.
I didn't actually watch Hero in WCS AM, but I did watch Stardust, and he just did all-in after all-in.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
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You know, David Kim is basically saying that he is happy with the state of sc2 at the moment. Good for him.
However, I am pondering a certain question. In a certain interview (I think it was EG's, not sure), Coach Park has stated that he believed Terran was the best race when he started coaching for sc2. Koreans even jokingly named it Terrancraft.
So the question is: who has a better grasp of the game and its mechanics? A top tier Korean coach who analyzes games, coaches players, works hard for all three races, etc or David Kim, who is a game designer?
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On July 31 2013 21:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 10:18 awesomoecalypse wrote:
All-inning may be the easiest way to play Protoss, but it doesn't seem to be the most effective, not the way it did in WoL. Protoss players have won 2 Premier Tournaments in HOTS (Terran and Zerg have both won 5 for comparison). Hero won WCS AM, and Stardust won Dreamhack Summer. I didn't actually watch Hero in WCS AM, but I did watch Stardust, and he just did all-in after all-in. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
You right, Stardust all-in to won Dreamhack. But as Protoss you realize that the only way to keep Protoss viable race is to all-in  PvsZ mutalisk is actually too strong and too easy to kill nexus and probes. That result as Protoss will do 2 base immortal all-in to avoid dealing with mutalisk. Players will always find way to win to counter imbalance, but more the game is imbalance more all-in/cheese players will do...
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Update: Balance talk between David Kim and Chinese progamer Jim and XY.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0IbyQL0.jpg)
The balance talk is not very well done by the players and it is quite biased. So I summarize a few important points from David Kim:
1. We won't change balance based on a single region.
2. We are observing the turtle swarm host plus static defense style in ZvP late-game.
3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
4. If ZvZ continues to be roach vs roach for a very long time, we may make changes in the future.
5. It is true that mech is countered by Zerg. But they are observing carefully, because buffing some units may bring about more problems.
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end.
Source: http://game.163.com/13/0802/10/9592VVA900314QV4.html
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1. We won't change balance based on a single region.
2. We are observing the turtle swarm host plus static defense style in ZvP late-game.
3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
4. If ZvZ continues to be roach vs roach for a very long time, we may make changes in the future.
5. It is true that mech is countered by Zerg. But they are observing carefully, because buffing some units may bring about more problems.
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end.
Has this guy seen Innovation play? Terran not strong at the moment? Has he seen the OSL recently? I'm confused.
Also the "we won't change balance based on a single region" is akin to saying "we won't balance the game for the highest possible level" considering Korea is so much more competitive than NA or EU. So again, it seems that David Kim has lost touch with the game?
I really don't like the things David Kim says.. those two things I put in bold just gives me the impression that he's not really suited for his job.
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On August 03 2013 04:34 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +1. We won't change balance based on a single region.
2. We are observing the turtle swarm host plus static defense style in ZvP late-game.
3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
4. If ZvZ continues to be roach vs roach for a very long time, we may make changes in the future.
5. It is true that mech is countered by Zerg. But they are observing carefully, because buffing some units may bring about more problems.
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end. Has this guy seen Innovation play? Terran not strong at the moment? Has he seen the OSL recently? I'm confused. Also the "we won't change balance based on a single region" is akin to saying "we won't balance the game for the highest possible level" considering Korea is so much more competitive than NA or EU. So again, it seems that David Kim has lost touch with the game? I really don't like the things David Kim says.. those two things I put in bold just gives me the impression that he's not really suited for his job.
Hello? What about innovation just being damn good? It has NOTHING to do with terran. Here is your strong terran: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues If we have to believe you, we would see a lot of blue. Meanwhile, I see as much (and actually, even more) green and red. Why?
I challenge you. Name 1 more active balanced game besides BW atm. 1. You will find exactly 0.
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On August 03 2013 04:37 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 04:34 Incognoto wrote:1. We won't change balance based on a single region.
2. We are observing the turtle swarm host plus static defense style in ZvP late-game.
3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
4. If ZvZ continues to be roach vs roach for a very long time, we may make changes in the future.
5. It is true that mech is countered by Zerg. But they are observing carefully, because buffing some units may bring about more problems.
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end. Has this guy seen Innovation play? Terran not strong at the moment? Has he seen the OSL recently? I'm confused. Also the "we won't change balance based on a single region" is akin to saying "we won't balance the game for the highest possible level" considering Korea is so much more competitive than NA or EU. So again, it seems that David Kim has lost touch with the game? I really don't like the things David Kim says.. those two things I put in bold just gives me the impression that he's not really suited for his job. Hello? What about innovation just being damn good? It has NOTHING to do with terran. Here is your strong terran: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leaguesI challenge you. Name 1 more active balanced game besides BW atm. 1. You will find exactly 0.
I didn't say Terran was strong, if anything the game is balanced and all three races have yet to settle in the meta-game correctly. Generally speaking, the better player wins. But Terran weak? I don't care about international database, I'm talking about what happens in Korea. That's where the game is played at the highest level and I don't see Terran particularly struggling. Hence I don't think David Kim is really in touch with the game.
You also know full well that SC2 and BW are pretty much the only truly active RTS there are so that "challenge" is irrelevant.
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only truly active RTS there are so that "challenge" is irrelevant.
Thing is, if there is ONE RTS game, with far worse design but with a better strategic part that comes out. SC2 will just drop off. In korea, people switched from BW to LoL, or any other game that is not SC2. If Blizzard doesn't change a lot of things, and if another company run his own RTS licence. It'll just wreck SC2 in terms of market, and in terms of eSports.
I like Starcraft universe, and I really like Blizzard's licenses, but I like more RTS games. And SC2 just lack what makes a truly good RTS. It's a good game, but even if i don't like Dotalike, and even if LoL is a far far easier game than sc2, it's just a better eSport licence in every point of view.
I don't think Blizzard will adress anything anytime soon, but I hope so, otherwise, the first company running his own RTS game and making it in a competitive way will just wreck sc2.
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On August 03 2013 04:59 MTAC wrote:Thing is, if there is ONE RTS game, with far worse design but with a better strategic part that comes out. SC2 will just drop off. In korea, people switched from BW to LoL, or any other game that is not SC2. If Blizzard doesn't change a lot of things, and if another company run his own RTS licence. It'll just wreck SC2 in terms of market, and in terms of eSports. I like Starcraft universe, and I really like Blizzard's licenses, but I like more RTS games. And SC2 just lack what makes a truly good RTS. It's a good game, but even if i don't like Dotalike, and even if LoL is a far far easier game than sc2, it's just a better eSport licence in every point of view. I don't think Blizzard will adress anything anytime soon, but I hope so, otherwise, the first company running his own RTS game and making it in a competitive way will just wreck sc2.
Another active RTS supported the same way Riot supports LoL is like my dream come true. Preferably with a more complex economy, like an Age of Empires game. :D But this is a tangent, we shouldn't continue dreaming here this thread isn't for that.
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On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end.
Wow David Kim is so smart!
If Protoss had just known the 1-1-1 was coming, or if Zerg had known that the SoulTrain was coming, they would never have been a problem! I mean, the problem was always that we had no idea they were coming, right?
I don't know how many games I assumed the 1-1-1 was coming and blind countered it, and still lost...
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EPT
