|
On July 17 2013 00:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:16 BronzeKnee wrote:
When did this become about Blizzard and game design? This is a broad topic, but not that broad.
He asked a question about how the community can improve. I see Blizzard as part of the community. Blizzard needs improvement. Even if you don't see Blizzard as part of the community, that is it our responsibility to pressure Blizzard into improving, if you agree with my argument. Yeah, I don't really see how game design has anything to do with the topic at hand. There are whole threads about that. There is little Blizzard can do to make the community more friendly, that is our issue. They have added a ton of features for people to get their feet wet and its up to the community to get people intrested.
In my opinion, the truth is that netizens in general tend to act a lot less civil when they are in front of their computer. I don't have much hope for making anyone on the internet any more friendly. And also, Sc2 players have quite a good etiquette in general (at least out of twitch chats).
So yeah, I'm not really fond of the idea of corresponding in any way with LoL players, so thats that for me.
|
On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game.
LoL and DotA are also known as friendship breaker 
|
On July 17 2013 00:30 KaienFEMC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game. LoL and DotA are also known as friendship breaker
I have found that the further up you get in LOL in league, the more manner people are. People call out toxic players at higher levels, and people actually self reflect and correct themselves when they are toxic.
People like to win.
|
On July 17 2013 00:30 KaienFEMC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game. LoL and DotA are also known as friendship breaker
Lost a lot of friends by saying " Fuck you I will make Support Ashe work." It works now, friends are slowly coming back XD
|
On July 17 2013 00:33 KhaliWear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:30 KaienFEMC wrote:On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game. LoL and DotA are also known as friendship breaker Lost a lot of friends by saying " Fuck you I will make Support Ashe work." It works now, friends are slowly coming back XD
Yay for LOL players!
|
"Broodwar is the only game that is actually hard" - so true.
|
On July 17 2013 01:00 Kabras wrote:
"Broodwar is the only game that is actually hard" - so true.
Also the type of attitudes that fractures communities and prevents any type of unified scene or cross-game dialogue.
|
On July 17 2013 00:32 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:30 KaienFEMC wrote:On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game. LoL and DotA are also known as friendship breaker I have found that the further up you get in LOL in league, the more manner people are. People call out toxic players at higher levels, and people actually self reflect and correct themselves when they are toxic. People like to win.
I think this graph applies universally
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CN9d7V8.png)
|
I think the hatred betwen starcraft and the mobas is natural and is mainly based on the succes of the latter and the dissapointment in sc2.You can also see this hatred in many other domains such as regular sports(see boxing vs mma).The resons of hatred are multiple and vary form different groups involved but they mostly involve around these primary reasons:
1.Money
It is very difficult for a sc2 pro not to feel envious about the fact that each lcs player receives form riot 12500$ dollars a year if his team qualifies for the lcs.Not to mention the bonuses they receive for placing good.Not to mention the money from sponsorships lol teams get(and they get a lot from companies such as samsung/snapdragon etc).The popularity of lol also means higher viewership numbers like oddone having 20k-30 k regularly on his stream which in term translates to even more money.
2.Fame and celebrity
Although it may seem childish fame and celebrity are a main reason or hate.Even in our everyday lives we hate people who are more successfull than us.Moreover the hate is amplified if we perceive the individual to be inferior to us.Take for example the hatred between the rap/heavy metal genres and pop music.Theoretically they do not have nay reason to hate each other.Practically rap/heavy metal fans see the billions of dollars pop musicians are making for singing shallow songs hence the envy hence the hate.
Moreover celebrity translates in views both onlune and on tv which translate into money,There is a reson why ogn champions-the kr lol tournament- is during prime time in korea and the proleague is not on rpimetime anymore.For a television more viewers->more money from commercials.
3.Ease of succes
Well here comes the part which amplifies the 2 main points above.Ease.Lol having such a large community rewards even small doses of succes with huge amounts of money.For example It is not uncommon for a casual(aka not part of lcs pro teams) lol streamer to get 20k viewers(wings of death for example).Even the most succesfull sc2 pro doesnt get that.In sc2 you need to place very high at a tournament to even dream about 5k to 10k.In lol where lcs is virtually region lock a couple of wins versus teams form the same continent gets you auto 10k viewers and lots of money form riot.How much money can you get in sc2 by beating only players form your continent?Answer:0(ok maybe scarlet).In sc2 you have the dawnting task of facing very skilled koreans who will eventually beat you and leave you without ways of making of living.
Ok so these are the reasons why a pro might hate lol.But why do fans hate it?Well it is simple.Because the succes of th e lol and other esports scenes will automatically reduce the financial potential and growth of the sc2 scene and they will have less players,less,teams,less matches,less tournaments to watch.Lets see some reasons.
1.Money
Why on Earth will a starcraft pro remain in the starcraft if he can not make a living and die of hunger.It sounds preety radical to say "die of hunger" but that is what actually happens.You are a sc2 progamer in your 20s.You can not win any tourneys because of koreans hence you do not get any tournament money and you do not get nay viewer son streams.What can you do?Food costs a lot,the rent costs a lot what are you going to live.In this situation you have only 2 options:
a)quit progaming and go to uni/follow a regular career
b)switch to a game where you cna actually make a living and face opponents of the same calibre:lol
How does this affect the fans.simple.They lose all their favourite pros to other games and have less favourite players to watch.This phemenomenon is mostly visible in the fighting sports community.For example in boxing due to the lack of big athletes who choose basketball and amrerican football the boxing heavyweight division is dominated by fat unskilled athlethes who provide low quality matches.It is a bummer for the fans but this is how it is.Most of the big guys have chosen the big money and safety of the basketball,american football scenes.we do not have the skill of Mike tyson or Muhammad Ali in the boxing heavyweight divison anymore.
Moreover this type of lack of athlethes is also noticeable in the sc2 na scene which is now virtually devoided of na talent.Remember the early days of sc2 when there were many na sc2 progamers with idra/incontrol/huk leading the pack?where is the idra of today?Where is the next huk?Na teams such as eg and temaliquid arent even hiring na talent anymore and instead choose code a koreans who can not make it in korea,Why arent there any more north american cittizens following a career in sc2?That is a direct consequence of lack of money and interest in the na sc2 scene.Compared to that the lol sc2 scene does not have any koreans and is thriving.Na lol fans have something to watch and spend their money on.This causes jealousy with the sc2 fans.
2.Future development
It is not a secret anymore that in terms of viewers and buying power sc2 is behind sota 2 and lol.Hence sponsors will automatically be more prone to sponsor dota2/lol and any other succesfull esport rather than sc2.Which in turn will lead to less tournaments,lesser prize pools and lesser willing gamers.
In the present day this is still not clearly visible.sc2 still holds a power postion.But what will happen in the future?How will the esports scene look like when sc3 will come?Esports a whole isnt a niche thingy anymore.Literally everyone in the gaming industry knows about it and wants a slice of it.I have heard execs form games such as Halo 4,Gears of War,God of War talking about preparing their games for a esports scene.Look at COD.They just entered the mlg tournament and they had only 10k less viewers than sc2 an establisehed esport.
Unless blizzard gets its shit togetter sc3 will be in a far worse positon than sc2.
An optional reason:
Demographics
It is sort of no secret that esports as whole are dominated mostly by asians.In terms of sponsorships one of the main things a company things before sponsoring any sport event is demographics.What is the demographic my product is targeting?What is the demographic of sc2 in na?People form korea coming to na scene only from the money?A 10k viewership made mostly by teenage kids with no income.Very hard to convince a sponsor to invest in something like this.Lol on the other hand has constant 100k viewers(albeit alsi they are teenage kids with no money but they are 10times our number),many na citizens playing and a big fanbase.As a sponsor they will be mostly likely to get a sponsorship.This in turn will again lead to less money in the sc2 scene,less pros,less tournaments and the cycle restarts
All in all both sc2 fans and pros have enough reasons to hate.Even if subconsciously but their hate has some practical reasons.
|
On July 17 2013 01:06 InvincibleRice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:00 Kabras wrote:
"Broodwar is the only game that is actually hard" - so true. Also the type of attitudes that fractures communities and prevents any type of unified scene or cross-game dialogue.
don't really care about any community or cross-game dialogue, whatever that means. i just like how idra says: "yea, lol isn't half bad you know, but BW still only hard game out there tho". haha, glad to see idra is still idra.
|
On July 17 2013 01:17 theking1 wrote:
.As a sponsor they will be mostly likely to get a sponsorship.This in turn will again lead to less money in the sc2 scene,less pros,less tournaments and the cycle restarts
And when Sc4 is relased we will be ruled by intelligent dolphins. I am calling it now.
I used to hate this "Sc2 is dying" posts in every thread but meanwhile I find them very entertaining. No matter what the thread is about after a few pages you will have a few people whining about SC2 and seeing it's near end.
I wonder was there the same amount of whining about Warcraft 3 when it was less popular than counterstrike (which was certainly the case in germany)?
For the topic itself: I respect the other communitys but I see no point spending time with games I don't care about.
|
On July 17 2013 01:28 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:17 theking1 wrote:
.As a sponsor they will be mostly likely to get a sponsorship.This in turn will again lead to less money in the sc2 scene,less pros,less tournaments and the cycle restarts
And when Sc4 is relased we will be ruled by intelligent dolphins. I am calling it now. I used to hate this "Sc2 is dying" posts in every thread but meanwhile I find them very entertaining. No matter what the thread is about after a few pages you will have a few people whining about SC2 and seeing it's near end. I wonder was there the same amount of whining about Warcraft 3 when it was less popular than counterstrike (which was certainly the case in germany)? For the topic itself: I respect the other communitys but I see no point spending time with games I don't care about.
I did not say sc2 will die.All I said were reasons of hate.And you would be surprised about the flack blizzard got for not supporting the wc3 and wow proscenes as much as the starcraft scene.Forums were filled with requests and qq for blizzard to invest more money and make the games more balanced,requests that went largely unnoticed.
|
On July 17 2013 01:33 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:28 HerrHorst wrote:On July 17 2013 01:17 theking1 wrote:
.As a sponsor they will be mostly likely to get a sponsorship.This in turn will again lead to less money in the sc2 scene,less pros,less tournaments and the cycle restarts
And when Sc4 is relased we will be ruled by intelligent dolphins. I am calling it now. I used to hate this "Sc2 is dying" posts in every thread but meanwhile I find them very entertaining. No matter what the thread is about after a few pages you will have a few people whining about SC2 and seeing it's near end. I wonder was there the same amount of whining about Warcraft 3 when it was less popular than counterstrike (which was certainly the case in germany)? For the topic itself: I respect the other communitys but I see no point spending time with games I don't care about. I did not say sc2 will die.All I said were reasons of hate.And you would be surprised about the flack blizzard got for not supporting the wc3 and wow proscenes as much as the starcraft scene.Forums were filled with requests and qq for blizzard to invest more money and make the games more balanced,requests that went largely unnoticed.
No pun intented I am just getting tired of "Sc2 is dying" posts.
But I guess the reason for hate is much more simple the internet is crowded with young man who love to fight each other. A few years ago you could find plenty of 1.6 vs Source [the most annoying one] and before that Quake vs UT and now its Dota2 vs LoL.
|
On July 17 2013 01:17 theking1 wrote:
1.Money
It is very difficult for a sc2 pro not to feel envious about the fact that each lcs player receives form riot 12500$ dollars a year if his team qualifies for the lcs.Not to mention the bonuses they receive for placing good.Not to mention the money from sponsorships lol teams get(and they get a lot from companies such as samsung/snapdragon etc).The popularity of lol also means higher viewership numbers like oddone having 20k-30 k regularly on his stream which in term translates to even more money.
It's actually $175,000 per team of which a minimum of $12,500 is supposed to go to players per split (ie $25k per season).
According to Riot, they'll spend $8 million this season on supporting teams, tournaments, and prizepool. That's with an estimated $200 million annual revenue for Riot Games.
|
Such a topic and idras quote is the last one.. person who is by far the biggest asshole on stream. Doesn't matter whats he is like irl, he is driven by hate and anger and a terrible attitute on stream.
Isn't his attitude, a contributor to the semi-shitty attitude on sc2 everywhere? I for one understand that I am my own person and if idra calls people piece of shit and a retard on stream, I don't change myself because of that. But some 9-13 year old kids, they see idra is smart, successful and plays video games,... they see the rage and might often enough do the same all over the internet, because thats the only Greg they see.
|
4713 Posts
Axeltoss I think your question simply lies in people learning to be more accepting. There is indeed a lot of game bashing but you only listed two of the three motives for this.
Another major reason people can't accept games is, as someone above me posted, ease of success.
Basically its hard to respect other games/gamers if you feel they don't need to dedicate as much time or effort to be successful in their pursuit as someone else in another game/domain.
This has many ties and analogies in the real world as well;
-when you work out hard pump tons of hours into the gym and need to manage your diet to healthy and feel good, and you see someone eating junk food, not work out, sleep at irregular hours and still remain healthy and slim, it feels like life is cheating you
-its easier to respect a boss/superior, who works side by side with his employes and doesn't ask them to do something he wouldn't do
A great divide now between the SC2 scene and the scenes of the other games is this sense of unfairness. Yes SC2 and MOBA's require vastly different skill sets to be successful at, yes you still need to dedicate time to these to develop them, however different doesn't mean better. There is still tension and animosity, and rightfully so, because it is perceived that the skill sets required to achieve success, and maintain it, in SC2, are vastly harder to obtain then the ones required to be successful at MOBAs. And in all seriousness, when you look at the amount of effort SC2 players need to dedicate to the mastery of their craft and how much they earn, and then look at LoL, how much they have to put in to achieve the same success while receiving more money, its hard to not feel like someone is cheated.
Again, a small fix would be just people learning to be more accepting. Like I know what I like, and I know what I dislike, but I don't try to force my opinion on to others. Others are free to enjoy their games and lead their lives how they see fit as long as it doesn't interfere with my life or my games. If people would just adopt this simple mentality a lot of game bashing could probably be avoided which could reduce a lot of tension.
However its only a small fix, as even though I can accept other people's games I still can't respect the game, I just can't respect it because of the discrepancy in effort required to succeed compared to SC2.
Now making SC2 more accessible for other people, that isn't the community's job unfortunately, that's the parent company, Blizzard's job, to keep finding ways to push it towards more people while keeping the core values of the game alive. Like the recent spawning feature and some other measures they have made to help spread it more in South Korea.
We can spread its popularity trough word of mouth, some small coaching, introducing people to awesome tournaments and stuff, but at the end of the day if the game is hard/difficult to pick up and keep people sucked in, then all these efforts are still for naught. Its still Blizzard's job to design the game in such a way that it is easy to get but hard to master, in a way they have achieved this, but in others they have failed. And it is also Blizzard's job to design a marketing, growth and sale strategy to spread the game to as many people as possible and continue to attract people, and in this sense Blizzard has kind of failed, especially in South Korea, they failed to take into account the importance of PC Bang's in the Korean culture and how it would impact their success there, and it has lead to SC2 somewhat under performing there. They also failed to take into account the effect MOBA's would have on the game market as well, though no one can fault them for that, no one knew what MOBAs could become, but they still failed to adapt to the changing trends once they did notice the,
|
On July 17 2013 02:15 gosublade wrote:
Such a topic and idras quote is the last one.. person who is by far the biggest asshole on stream. Doesn't matter whats he is like irl, he is driven by hate and anger and a terrible attitute on stream.
Isn't his attitude, a contributor to the semi-shitty attitude on sc2 everywhere? I for one understand that I am my own person and if idra calls people piece of shit and a retard on stream, I don't change myself because of that. But some 9-13 year old kids, they see idra is smart, successful and plays video games,... they see the rage and might often enough do the same all over the internet, because thats the only Greg they see.
Seemed to me that his attitude in that quote is a heck of a lot better than his reputed terrible attitude.
He's right too, when he says that you can be bad and press a bunch of buttons and kill other bad people - think of fighting games. Bad players in fighting games are of course called button mashers, because that's what we are. We can beat other bad players, and we get enjoyment out of it. It's fun, even though we're bad. But there's a lot of skill involved in being really good at a fighting game, as EVO shows us consistently. (Sorry, FGC people - I really don't know your scene outside of watching EVO each year.) That's basically what Idra's saying, and of course he manages to say it while coming across as having his usual attitude, but that's partly because he's quoting his past statements where he DID have an attitude.
I honestly don't really think his attitude is a great contributor to a shitty attitude on sc2 - there are people with attitudes in every game. (Don't even get me started on some of the more notorious LoL players.) It seems to be that there's a vocal minority in each game that hates on all the other games because their game is the best. I have only soft evidence that on axel's corresponding reddit thread in LoL, and also a corresponding high-tiered LoL player posted at /r/starcraft in response, with a similar message inspired by Axel's post, the threads both saw pretty high rating, and the "hate comments" mostly got downvoted into oblivion. Not exactly the most scientific of evidence, but it's something!
I was a big BW watcher, and though I spend a large chunk of my free time watching LoL and less on SC2 now, (and I also contribute to the TL LoL writeups) I still get excited about SKT in ProLeague, and a few other players (Liquid`Hero) and even watch when TheYango points me at an interesting DOTA2 game (usually involving TL again. It's nice having a team I can automatically root for without having any clue about the scene!) There are times I can't help but judge one game against another, but I love esports in all its forms, and there's no reason to hate.
|
Let's all be a little bit more like Grubby and our community will be the better for it.
|
8748 Posts
So many SC2 pros that have played LoL but no one knows because they don't want everyone to know haha
|
On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games.
I'd agree that you don't have to like other communities games, so long as you are not stupid and abrasive to them as well. I will however not disagree that for eSports as a whole, the communities in various games working collaboratively doesn't hurt to help promote the growth of all games in general at a faster pace then any will on there own.
Look at it this way what's better?
Option A: Riot or Blizzard hosting a tournament just for their respective games individually or...
Option B: Riot and Blizzard coming together with a group(s) like MLG/IEM/GSL and hosting a tournament with both games under one roof in one place? You throw other developers and games like CoD CS:GO etc. into the mix too and just imagine how much bigger things could be and how much attention it could generate.
While both options are perfectly valid approaches, one achieves the goals of growing esports and gaining attention for esports far more quickly then the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
