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On July 16 2013 22:17 floor exercise wrote:
When LCS players aren't contractually forbidden from mentioning competing games in social media I will support a 'unified' esports.
It's honestly as simple as that. People might talk about how it's the communities that are keeping the games apart, but Riot actively tries to harm competition, undercut growth of other scenes, and have a long history of attempting to shit in DotA's throat.
Every other game can get a long fine, the divisive factor is League, and that's more to do with the company that heads it than it is the fanbase or the game itself.
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On July 16 2013 22:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:39 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 22:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 16 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
I would also point out that WCS could be hosted at the Staples Center if Blizzard was dumping as much money into WCS as Riot is. But things like the Staples Center will go away when LoL isn't the biggest game in the world. Its all marketing and how much budget they have. chicken-egg.Riot has the money to do this because a lot of people already spend and continue to spend a lot of money on LoL. How did LoL get to be "the biggest game in the world"? To assess the "success" of any live event you need access to the gate and paid attendance numbers. Both, the Toronto Rock lacrosse team and the Maple Leafs hockey team "sell out the building" for playoff games. The "gate" is $7,000,000 for a Maple Leafs game and under $300,000 for lacrosse games. "sell out at a college basketball stadium" says not much. who knows, maybe Riot made a few million at last year's event "in a college basketball stadium"... or maybe they barely broke even. There is no chicken and the egg here, Jimmy. LoL had one of the largest user bases in the world before it created the LCS some time ago. They made LCS after they got to that level. Having the LCS doesn't hurt Riot and is likley the best marketing money they could be spending., but I can't be sure they make money directly from the producing the LCS(make money directly from the broadcast, rather than inspire people to buy more champs and skins). Maybe they will make money off the Staples Center if they can fill it. But if the game becomes less popular, they won't, so it wouldn't make sense to rent it out. great job re-asking the questions i posted 
It's a question no one can answer without looking at Riot's budget, income from ads on Twitch and other numbers. I would also need more details on their deal with the Staples Center, if they get money from food, drinks and other things sold during the event. We can only guess, but we are basicly uninformed on the subject.
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On July 16 2013 22:57 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:17 floor exercise wrote:
When LCS players aren't contractually forbidden from mentioning competing games in social media I will support a 'unified' esports. It's honestly as simple as that. People might talk about how it's the communities that are keeping the games apart, but Riot actively tries to harm competition, undercut growth of other scenes, and have a long history of attempting to shit in DotA's throat. Every other game can get a long fine, the divisive factor is League, and that's more to do with the company that heads it than it is the fanbase or the game itself.
That's not quite a fair comparison though. DotA is a direct competitor to LoL.
It's not like Blizzard didn't try to get everyone to switch from BW to SC2 right from the start. I don't think every BW fan is happy with Blizzard's action re: BW and that was Blizzard's own game!
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On July 16 2013 23:15 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:57 RockIronrod wrote:On July 16 2013 22:17 floor exercise wrote:
When LCS players aren't contractually forbidden from mentioning competing games in social media I will support a 'unified' esports. It's honestly as simple as that. People might talk about how it's the communities that are keeping the games apart, but Riot actively tries to harm competition, undercut growth of other scenes, and have a long history of attempting to shit in DotA's throat. Every other game can get a long fine, the divisive factor is League, and that's more to do with the company that heads it than it is the fanbase or the game itself. That's not quite a fair comparison though. DotA is a direct competitor to LoL. It's not like Blizzard didn't try to get everyone to switch from BW to SC2 right from the start. I don't think every BW fan is happy with Blizzard's action re: BW and that was Blizzard's own game!
Last time i checked SC/BW-Bnet servers are still up and you got a full version of SC/BW with the Wol collectors edition.
Yeah, Blizzard was/is clearly trying to KILL SC/BW... Nah, they just don't market it anymore and actively pushed for SC2's breaktrhu in Korea via GSL.
Comparing that to what Riot trie(s)d is ridiculous, at least i haven't seen Blizzard actively closing down the biggst SC/BW forum on the planet and using it's link to advertise Wol... ...
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How did i know this would turn into a fuck LoL thread, i must be psychic.
I agree, less hate, more love. Its pretty ridiculous and i cant even be bothered to state reasons why
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On July 16 2013 23:24 Capped wrote:
How did i know this would turn into a fuck LoL thread, i must be psychic.
I agree, less hate, more love. Its pretty ridiculous and i cant even be bothered to state reasons why
Blizzard just needs to give free battle.net copies and make us pay for the story which I never play.
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imo we should just learn to ignore other communities as this thread demonstrates it doesn't matter how much you try and reason, people are just going to get mad at each other for petty reasons and differences.
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On July 16 2013 22:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 16 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
I would also point out that WCS could be hosted at the Staples Center if Blizzard was dumping as much money into WCS as Riot is. But things like the Staples Center will go away when LoL isn't the biggest game in the world. Its all marketing and how much budget they have. chicken-egg.Riot has the money to do this because a lot of people already spend and continue to spend a lot of money on LoL. How did LoL get to be "the biggest game in the world"? To assess the "success" of any live event you need access to the gate and paid attendance numbers. Both, the Toronto Rock lacrosse team and the Maple Leafs hockey team "sell out the building" for playoff games. The "gate" is $7,000,000 for a Maple Leafs game and under $300,000 for lacrosse games. "sell out at a college basketball stadium" says not much. who knows, maybe Riot made a few million at last year's event "in a college basketball stadium"... or maybe they barely broke even. There is no chicken and the egg here, Jimmy. LoL had one of the largest user bases in the world before it created the LCS some time ago. They made LCS after they got to that level. Having the LCS doesn't hurt Riot and is likley the best marketing money they could be spending., but I can't be sure they make money directly from the producing the LCS(make money directly from the broadcast, rather than inspire people to buy more champs and skins). Maybe they will make money off the Staples Center if they can fill it. But if the game becomes less popular, they won't, so it wouldn't make sense to rent it out.
Really though it's pure conjecture, because you have no idea what their sales figures are, and how profitable they are, and what makes them money. All you can state with certainty is that they have the largest playerbase and that they are indeed renting out the Staples Center. Everything past that is you pulling out of your ass, which is fine if you recognize it as such, not the actual truth.
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On July 16 2013 23:29 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:39 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 22:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 16 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
I would also point out that WCS could be hosted at the Staples Center if Blizzard was dumping as much money into WCS as Riot is. But things like the Staples Center will go away when LoL isn't the biggest game in the world. Its all marketing and how much budget they have. chicken-egg.Riot has the money to do this because a lot of people already spend and continue to spend a lot of money on LoL. How did LoL get to be "the biggest game in the world"? To assess the "success" of any live event you need access to the gate and paid attendance numbers. Both, the Toronto Rock lacrosse team and the Maple Leafs hockey team "sell out the building" for playoff games. The "gate" is $7,000,000 for a Maple Leafs game and under $300,000 for lacrosse games. "sell out at a college basketball stadium" says not much. who knows, maybe Riot made a few million at last year's event "in a college basketball stadium"... or maybe they barely broke even. There is no chicken and the egg here, Jimmy. LoL had one of the largest user bases in the world before it created the LCS some time ago. They made LCS after they got to that level. Having the LCS doesn't hurt Riot and is likley the best marketing money they could be spending., but I can't be sure they make money directly from the producing the LCS(make money directly from the broadcast, rather than inspire people to buy more champs and skins). Maybe they will make money off the Staples Center if they can fill it. But if the game becomes less popular, they won't, so it wouldn't make sense to rent it out. Really though it's pure conjecture, because you have no idea what their sales figures are, and how profitable they are, and what makes them money. All you can state with certainty is that they have the largest playerbase and that they are indeed renting out the Staples Center. Everything past that is you pulling out of your ass, which is fine if you recognize it as such, not the actual truth.
Exactly, which is why we shouldn't be freaking out. Riot is clearly doing well in some way and wants to put a lot of money behind LCS. Or maybe the Staples Center is free due to the CEO of Riot winning during a poker game? We will never know. It doesn't mean the same thing would work for Blizzard or even Valve, since they do not work under the same model and have their own fanbases. I would rather they all try their own things with their own games and see flaws and merits to each. It is better for them to have their own ideas, rather than just chance the guy that everyone believes is the biggest and best.
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Well I'm an long time lurker on these boards, but I felt compelled to write some of my thoughts on this topic and thread in general.
- The whole "casual game" thing as it were, in my view was an inside joke. Blizzard did and still is making the game as accessible to newer gamers. This isn't a bad thing, it just speaks of the trend over the last decade or so, to appeal to a larger market.
The truth is SC2 is as much as a "casual game" as LOL is. The majority of people who bought the game are unlikely to stick with the multiplayer, much like Call of Duty.
- As for any banter between the communities. I think it's been proven that too many people take what is said literally. Like something I love is being attacked, I must don my battle armor and defend it from the internet. I come from a background where most of the people involved are usually mature adults and can handle any jabs. Notwithstanding the irony of that last paragraph and my username, I feel I can poke fun at others and the same back without it reaching a malicious level. So far in my experience, most "e-sports" fans just take it too far and end up offending someone.
I'm not sure if this intrinsic to this scene, but I see it other scenes too, so it may be more about the age of the core viewership. Ofc, as with everything in life I could be completely wrong.
- Some of the other games and communities mentioned in here. From my experience during the big events like MLG/Dreamhack etc. people will deliberately start a flame war saying "LOL > sc2". I'm not admonishing it. I'm just saying that both sides have technically taken shots at each other, except for LOL pros who have admirably said nothing but good things about other games. If I was wearing a hat, I'd tip it to them. I feel they are model pros for someone so young.
Most of my experiences with the LOL crowd have been mostly positive.
As for the FGC, in some of the streams I watch, small parts of their chat take homophobic and racist words to excessive levels. This isn't to tar everyone with the same brush, but I kinda wish I'd taken some screen shots of the stuff that have been said. This is obviously based purely on what the content provider finds acceptable, and as I'm no angel I'm probably not best equipped to deal with it. Pretending it doesn't happen is also some form of denial, that I don't even want to touch.
TL:DR Every hobby takes skill to get good at. I also feel much of this thread is cathartic for some.
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I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
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On July 16 2013 02:01 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:47 IdrA wrote:
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard
Bottom line:
The difficulty in Starcraft2 so far has been a farce.
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On July 17 2013 00:02 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:01 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:On July 16 2013 03:47 IdrA wrote:
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard Bottom line: The difficulty in Starcraft2 so far has been a farce.
Don't be cheeky! :D
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The biggest thing holding SC2 back in my opinion is Blizzard. Blizzard simply doesn't understand SC2.
Let me highlight the problem, straight from David Kim:
David Kim wrote:
•Widow Mines are currently overshadowing units such as Siege Tanks and Thors, but their use doesn’t correlate distinctly with wins over Protoss or Zerg opponents.
•So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
•We believe the answer is yes.
•When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
•When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
•The current design of Widow Mines rewards both players who are skilled at using them and opposing players who are skilled at defeating them.
•It doesn’t look like Siege Tanks have disappeared. They’re critical in TvT, and in TvZ they’re key to playing a safe early/mid game. Additionally, Terran Mech also has potential.
•As long as Widow Mines reward skilled players and Terran can’t legitimately be said to be better than the other races, we don’t plan to adjust this unit."
So when you see an army of Marines and Tank clash, the outcome is predictable and has less to do with player skill than Widow Mines? It doesn't matter if the Terran is caught out of Siege Mode? Really?
Widow Mines can burrow in one second, meaning that you're punished less if Zerg to catches you out of position. Furthermore, Widow Mines do so much damage and so quickly in large battles, that it is often uncertain who is going to come out on top. If they do some friendly fire damage or don't pick off key units (Banelings) then Zerg wins. If they do massive damage to only the Zerg army, Terran wins. Predicting that is nearly impossible, and thus we get games decided by unmicroed Widow Mine hits. It certainly isn't skilless as both side splits their units frantically, but Siege Tank play requires more skill and as Blizzard mentioned the outcome is more predictable, which is good thing.
Furthermore, this was never the intention of Blizzard. They didn't intend Widow Mines to replace Siege Tanks. And that highlights the issue even more. They add units into the game to perform a specific role, and then the way they are balanced they end up not only performing that role, but doing other roles and replacing other units too. Look at the Hellbat. Did Blizzard learn nothing from BFH's in WOL TvT?
And then we have units like the Swarm Host. Blizzard talks about how it doesn't like Mech play and thinks it is boring. Then they added the Swarm Host into the game, a unit they believe would help Zergs "finish off" Protoss or Terran in the midgame. Is it used that way? Of course not. It is more of a turtle unit than Siege Tanks ever were.
These problems mean that metagame gets stale quickly, because Blizzard doesn't actually know how to improve the game.
Oh well. Blizzard even admits they can't figure out their own game (giving us insight into why we had to repeat history with Hellbats following BFH in TvT).... and apparently they only recently realized (or at least admitted) that aggressive play was exciting:
David Kim wrote:
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
SC2 has been difficult to figure out because it is poorly designed and relies on chance too much. The chance element ensures that the results aren't predictable, and so it seems like no one can completely figure out the game. During times with unpredictable results, the games have been scrappy with a lot of aggressive play. This was the case in both the first months of WOL and HOTS.
Blizzard's biggest failing is when we've seen predictable results it has been due to units or unit combinations that discourage micro (Sentries, Infestors, Photon Overcharge, deathballs ect...) and thus when we've had predictable results the game has been boring.
The solution for this problem is predictable results with units that encourage skillful play. This builds player skill, as players realize the way to get better isn't for them to build X unit that hard counters Y unit, it is for them to use Z unit better.
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On July 17 2013 00:05 BronzeKnee wrote:The biggest thing holding SC2 back in my opinion is Blizzard. Blizzard simply doesn't understand SC2. Let me highlight the problem, straight from David Kim: Show nested quote +David Kim wrote:
•Widow Mines are currently overshadowing units such as Siege Tanks and Thors, but their use doesn’t correlate distinctly with wins over Protoss or Zerg opponents.
•So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
•We believe the answer is yes.
•When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
•When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
•The current design of Widow Mines rewards both players who are skilled at using them and opposing players who are skilled at defeating them.
•It doesn’t look like Siege Tanks have disappeared. They’re critical in TvT, and in TvZ they’re key to playing a safe early/mid game. Additionally, Terran Mech also has potential.
•As long as Widow Mines reward skilled players and Terran can’t legitimately be said to be better than the other races, we don’t plan to adjust this unit."
So when you see an army of Marines and Tank clash, the outcome is predictable and has less to do with player skill than Widow Mines? It doesn't matter if the Terran is caught out of Siege Mode? Really? Widow Mines can burrow in one second, meaning that you're punished less if Zerg to catches you out of position. Furthermore, Widow Mines do so much damage and so quickly in large battles, that it is often uncertain who is going to come out on top. If they do some friendly fire damage or don't pick off key units (Banelings) then Zerg wins. If they do massive damage to only the Zerg army, Terran wins. Predicting that is nearly impossible, and thus we get games decided by unmicroed Widow Mine hits. It certainly isn't skilless as both side splits their units frantically, but Siege Tank play requires more skill and as Blizzard mentioned the outcome is more predictable, which is good thing. Furthermore, this was never the intention of Blizzard. They didn't intend Widow Mines to replace Siege Tanks. And that highlights the issue even more. They add units into the game to perform a specific role, and then the way they are balanced they end up not only performing that role, but doing other roles and replacing other units too. Look at the Hellbat. Did Blizzard learn nothing from BFH's in WOL TvT? And then we have units like the Swarm Host. Blizzard talks about how it doesn't like Mech play and thinks it is boring. Then they added the Swarm Host into the game, a unit they believe would help Zergs "finish off" Protoss or Terran in the midgame. Is it used that way? Of course not. It is more of a turtle unit than Siege Tanks ever were. These problems mean that metagame gets stale quickly, because Blizzard doesn't actually know how to improve the game. Oh well. Blizzard even admits they can't figure out their own game (giving us insight into why we had to repeat history with Hellbats following BFH in TvT).... and apparently they only recently realized (or at least admitted) that aggressive play was exciting Show nested quote +David Kim wrote:
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
When did this become about Blizzard and game design? This is a broad topic, but not that broad.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game.
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When did this become about Blizzard and game design? This is a broad topic, but not that broad.
He asked a question about how the community can improve. I see Blizzard as part of the community. Blizzard needs improvement more than any other part of the community in my opinion, and it is what is holding SC2 back as compared to LOL.
Even if you don't see Blizzard as part of the community, it is our responsibility to pressure Blizzard into improving if you agree with my argument.
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On July 17 2013 00:12 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:57 Douillos wrote:
I know a major part in my experience with LoL is that it has one the worst communities ever. Every fuckin' game it's flame flame flame, "feeder" "noob" etc. People insult each other EVERY GAME. You can say what you want about the sc2 community, but BM is still frowned upon. In LoL, BM is the norm.
Also a lot of LoL-players are under 18's, which for me and my 27 years of age is a good reason to not really be that interested in getting back into the game.
I got my account up to lvl 30 and I will only touch it when I have 4 other mates with me.
DotA is different. It's very elitist, but you are warned. And nowhere as asshole-filled as Lol.
Tl;Dr: I don't mind the game, but I don't get along with the people who play it. And I know I'm not the only one.
I don't think Dota is really any better. I hear plenty of stories of people flaming and being assholes. This is a factor of MOBAs more than it is of LoL. That's why it's better to always play with friends. Soloq is a gamble, but it's just a factor of it being a team game.
Exactly, I love Dota and kinda dislike LoL, but that is because I play with different people. I think Dota has better community features and a better focus on team play. But there are still shit heads in the game who are only in it for themselves. Play with friends and avoid morons.
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On July 17 2013 00:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +
When did this become about Blizzard and game design? This is a broad topic, but not that broad.
He asked a question about how the community can improve. I see Blizzard as part of the community. Blizzard needs improvement. Even if you don't see Blizzard as part of the community, that is it our responsibility to pressure Blizzard into improving, if you agree with my argument.
Yeah, I don't really see how game design has anything to do with the topic at hand. There are whole threads about that. There is little Blizzard can do to make the community more friendly, that is our issue. They have added a ton of features for people to get their feet wet and its up to the community to get people intrested.
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On July 17 2013 00:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:16 BronzeKnee wrote:
When did this become about Blizzard and game design? This is a broad topic, but not that broad.
He asked a question about how the community can improve. I see Blizzard as part of the community. Blizzard needs improvement. Even if you don't see Blizzard as part of the community, that is it our responsibility to pressure Blizzard into improving, if you agree with my argument. Yeah, I don't really see how game design has anything to do with the topic at hand. There are whole threads about that. There is little Blizzard can do to make the community more friendly, that is our issue. They have added a ton of features for people to get their feet wet and its up to the community to get people intrested.
I suppose it is bit of a stretch the more I think about it, but it is related, and I think worthy of this discussion.
The fact is, a lot of people play this game because of the competitive element. As other better designed games also mirror that element, people leave for those games. If the game is better then more will play it. If the results are more predictable and balanced the community will be more friendly. We all see the community gets a lot more heated when there is obvious game design issues. Those issues, and Blizzard's inability to understand or fix them doesn't help the build the community at all, it pushes people away.
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EPT
