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Atleast this is because of corporate implosion. Good of them to have STX Soul until the very end.
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On June 30 2013 01:25 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 01:16 PVJ wrote:On June 30 2013 01:07 lichter wrote:Okay so I decided to do a little reading. STX Pan Ocean is in deep shit. Stocks of both STX Group and STX Pan Ocean have been tanking since 2009. "STX Pan Ocean plunged to 2,565 won Tuesday from 10,900 won Dec. 15, 2008, and STX Offshore & Shipbuilding also 067250.SE +1.53% nosedived to 2,595 won from 14,500 won during the same period." That's a few years ago but the company hasn't really recovered since. Just last week, "STX Pan Ocean tumbled 14.9 percent before share trading was suspended," while "STX Corp dropped 14.8 percent and STX Engine slid 13.8 percent." Ouch. "STX Pan Ocean, which became one of STX Group's most profitable units after emerging from receivership in 2002, swung to a net loss of 91 billion won in 2009. Its loss deepened to 467 billion won last year." I cannot find what percentage of STX Group's income comes from STX Pan Ocean, but most articles state that "90% of the group's sales come from [shipping and shipbuilding industries]." Their official website does not provide much financial information aside from graphs from the period of 2008-2010. Not a lot of info, but based on their graphs 1.) They are still profitable with a net income of 30.5billion Won in 2010 after a disastrous 2009 when they suffered losses of 171.8billion Won; 2.) Debt equity ratio continues to rise; 3.) Cash flow has been very bad, with 2010 reporting a -69.7billion, with most of that cash coming from "financing activities", and the biggest losses coming from their disastrous investments. However, all is not lost. "STX Group, with more than 10 trillion won, or $9 billion, in total debt, has sold 1.13 trillion won in assets as part of a 2.5 trillion won asset sale plan announced in May of last year." So they've been trying to repay their debts but so far it hasn't worked out smoothly as "STX Group had put up for sale its almost 36% interest in STX Pan Ocean, but no buyers came forward." Fortunately, "Creditors of ailing STX Offshore & Shipbuilding on Friday injected an additional 250 billion won (US$216 million) in liquidity into the shipbuilder in a bid to tide it over during its cash crunch, officials said." So even though STX Pan Ocean are in deep shit, it looks like its creditors are going to try everything they can in order to keep STX afloat. It looks like the government also has a stake in this as many companies, banks and institutions have investments or connections to STX Group. So yes, STX are in some trouble, but it looks a lot of people are trying to find a way to help them. According to what I've read, " STX Group had a combined 2.86 trillion won in corporate debt to be paid out by 2015, according to NICE Investors Service, a local credit appraiser. Out of such debt, the group has 580 billion won in debt that is due this year." This is what is the most worrying as their most recent financial information states they only have a net income of about 30billion Won. I'm uncertain if the debt payments due this year stated above already includes interest payments or only the principal to be paid. Either way, if STX can find a way to refinance that debt and have a more frugal investment plan (apparently Kang wants to BUY ALL THE COMPANIES) they should come out of this fine. They are still a profitable company that is essential for the Korean economy, so I think they will find a way. I could probably read more but I hate reading about business at home. Sources: http://www.stx.co.kr/FrontEN/IR/IR_00201.aspxhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/05/markets-korea-stocks-idUSL3N0EH11F20130605http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324904004578535041285632524.htmlhttp://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/06/11/stx-tycoon-on-the-ropes-after-bankruptcy-filing/http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/News.aspx?ElementId=ead348ff-078a-439f-9b6d-2667c4a8ccc6 I think PanOcean is like 1/3 of all the shipbuilding activities (providing 90%) and the Shipbuilding, Offshore, and Engineering can make up for the other 2/3. But again, we are now more like WSJ commenters than anything, probably there's not much VC involved with Soul, barely noticeable amount of fixed costs, and overall I'd say they might close be self-sustaining. I mean Woongjin is just as bad, should I make a [Rumor] Woongjin isn't selling enough herb tea thread? From what I've read only Pan Ocean is really in the shits. I still think STX are going to be fine, as a company. The pro-team, I dunno, maybe the rumors of STX disbanding has nothing to do with STX's profitability.
Thanks for all the information, lichter. I had already read about most of that, but I didn't know the details about their debt repayment schedule. I agree that STX will continue to stay in business, although they will need to continue selling assets. STX will most certainly be downsized, except potentially its shipbuilding operations.
However, we would not be discussing STX's financial situation without Shuttle talking about the team disbanding on his stream. That is why all of this speculation exists.
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Oh come ON this can't be serious. Team 9 inc? 
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On June 30 2013 01:31 Looms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 01:25 lichter wrote:On June 30 2013 01:16 PVJ wrote:On June 30 2013 01:07 lichter wrote:Okay so I decided to do a little reading. STX Pan Ocean is in deep shit. Stocks of both STX Group and STX Pan Ocean have been tanking since 2009. "STX Pan Ocean plunged to 2,565 won Tuesday from 10,900 won Dec. 15, 2008, and STX Offshore & Shipbuilding also 067250.SE +1.53% nosedived to 2,595 won from 14,500 won during the same period." That's a few years ago but the company hasn't really recovered since. Just last week, "STX Pan Ocean tumbled 14.9 percent before share trading was suspended," while "STX Corp dropped 14.8 percent and STX Engine slid 13.8 percent." Ouch. "STX Pan Ocean, which became one of STX Group's most profitable units after emerging from receivership in 2002, swung to a net loss of 91 billion won in 2009. Its loss deepened to 467 billion won last year." I cannot find what percentage of STX Group's income comes from STX Pan Ocean, but most articles state that "90% of the group's sales come from [shipping and shipbuilding industries]." Their official website does not provide much financial information aside from graphs from the period of 2008-2010. Not a lot of info, but based on their graphs 1.) They are still profitable with a net income of 30.5billion Won in 2010 after a disastrous 2009 when they suffered losses of 171.8billion Won; 2.) Debt equity ratio continues to rise; 3.) Cash flow has been very bad, with 2010 reporting a -69.7billion, with most of that cash coming from "financing activities", and the biggest losses coming from their disastrous investments. However, all is not lost. "STX Group, with more than 10 trillion won, or $9 billion, in total debt, has sold 1.13 trillion won in assets as part of a 2.5 trillion won asset sale plan announced in May of last year." So they've been trying to repay their debts but so far it hasn't worked out smoothly as "STX Group had put up for sale its almost 36% interest in STX Pan Ocean, but no buyers came forward." Fortunately, "Creditors of ailing STX Offshore & Shipbuilding on Friday injected an additional 250 billion won (US$216 million) in liquidity into the shipbuilder in a bid to tide it over during its cash crunch, officials said." So even though STX Pan Ocean are in deep shit, it looks like its creditors are going to try everything they can in order to keep STX afloat. It looks like the government also has a stake in this as many companies, banks and institutions have investments or connections to STX Group. So yes, STX are in some trouble, but it looks a lot of people are trying to find a way to help them. According to what I've read, " STX Group had a combined 2.86 trillion won in corporate debt to be paid out by 2015, according to NICE Investors Service, a local credit appraiser. Out of such debt, the group has 580 billion won in debt that is due this year." This is what is the most worrying as their most recent financial information states they only have a net income of about 30billion Won. I'm uncertain if the debt payments due this year stated above already includes interest payments or only the principal to be paid. Either way, if STX can find a way to refinance that debt and have a more frugal investment plan (apparently Kang wants to BUY ALL THE COMPANIES) they should come out of this fine. They are still a profitable company that is essential for the Korean economy, so I think they will find a way. I could probably read more but I hate reading about business at home. Sources: http://www.stx.co.kr/FrontEN/IR/IR_00201.aspxhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/05/markets-korea-stocks-idUSL3N0EH11F20130605http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324904004578535041285632524.htmlhttp://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/06/11/stx-tycoon-on-the-ropes-after-bankruptcy-filing/http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/News.aspx?ElementId=ead348ff-078a-439f-9b6d-2667c4a8ccc6 I think PanOcean is like 1/3 of all the shipbuilding activities (providing 90%) and the Shipbuilding, Offshore, and Engineering can make up for the other 2/3. But again, we are now more like WSJ commenters than anything, probably there's not much VC involved with Soul, barely noticeable amount of fixed costs, and overall I'd say they might close be self-sustaining. I mean Woongjin is just as bad, should I make a [Rumor] Woongjin isn't selling enough herb tea thread? From what I've read only Pan Ocean is really in the shits. I still think STX are going to be fine, as a company. The pro-team, I dunno, maybe the rumors of STX disbanding has nothing to do with STX's profitability. Thanks for all the information, lichter. I had already read about most of that, but I didn't know the details about their debt repayment schedule. I agree that STX will continue to stay in business, although they will need to continue selling assets. STX will most certainly be downsized, except potentially its shipbuilding operations. However, we would not be discussing STX's financial situation without Shuttle talking about the team disbanding on his stream. That is why all of this speculation exists.
It's actually the ship building that's going to receive significant downsizing, as I read. Mostly due to a very big decline in demand for new ships. "Contracts for new vessels halved to $84.7 billion last year, compared with $174.7 billion in 2008." According to the sources it's overcapacity and a weaker shipping environment that's to blame, not some inherent flaw with STX Group's business model.
It's the debt repayment schedule that's most alarming. They have to find a way to either pay the amount outright and on time (one source states they had cash or near cash of 170+billion Won) or find a way to refinance that debt, and find a solution to their ailing shipping businesses so they can pay off that refinanced debt when the time comes.
Also! I'm really curious about their "investment activities" which, according to their website, has been losing tens of billions of Won over the years.
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On June 30 2013 01:35 Pimpmuckl wrote:Oh come ON this can't be serious. Team 9 inc?
Nah Team 8 renames to Team7, and STX Soul to Team8
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I was gonna say "well, at least the team closing down would have nothing to do with finances related to Starcraft so we can't say that this reflects a weak scene", but in a global economy I don't think $9billion in debt is anything that isn't going to somehow affect us all in the long run in at least some small way.
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Cakegirl needs to hold a bake sale, that is the only hope.
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Probably not at all meaningful, but Dear is wearing an STX jacket at MLG.
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Hope nothing happens
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lol will Prime and NSH survive a Kespa team? >.>
Where will Bogus go?
Will ESF teams join SPL?
Find out next time..
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I really want a 12-team, 5 nights a week, double broadcast proleague again. GOM and ESF please.
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On June 30 2013 00:22 gobbledydook wrote:
So if you have a zealot and a sentry, is that a deathball?
If I had nuts on my wall, they'd be walnuts.
If I had nuts on my chest, they'd be chestnuts.
If I had nuts on my chin, they wouldn't be chin-nuts, it would mean I forgot to raise my supply depots and now there are zealot run-bys in my third.
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On June 30 2013 01:12 forumtext wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 01:02 StarStruck wrote:On June 30 2013 00:50 theking1 wrote:On June 30 2013 00:20 forumtext wrote:Save SC while we still can! I think we need to begin to face the fact that SC2 as an epsort game is simply lacking some areas. I was watching SC2 MLG last night and keep hearing the crowds cheers from the other sections, so I decided to watch some LOL seriously for the first time, just to see why it has succeed in the shadows of BW whereas SC2, the rightful heir is fading away. And the conclusion is - hope! In competitions, hope is a powerful incentive that keeps the fans on their toes and stops players from giving up. In almost every LOL battle, there is always hope at the end of it that the losing team can still win the war, and for the victorious, there is hope that they will capitalise the advantage and wins the game. Now let's go back to the state of SC2 today. Around 80% of the game I watch follows this pattern: Player build up their deathballs*, deathballs meet, one of them wins and usually with >40% of their army alive (imho it's due to perfect AI combined with fast pace game play but that's for anther debate), and here is where hope ends in SC2. I am not saying you cannot come back from this spot, but for anyone that watches Pro SC2 regularly, we all know that the chances are close to impossible. Sadly. most of the time our instinct is correct and the loser will just roll-over and dies. Sure, someone will probably bring up examples of games where players do come back from a deficit, but that is a scarce occurrence in today's SC2. Without hope, players gives up after that first "Deathball v Deathball" encounter. Fans lose interests too because they know the result will likely to be the same as the other 9000+ "Deathball v Deathball" encounters they've watched. Evidence of players giving up includes the now extremely common Deathball battle -> GG. And for the viewers, you just need to see the amount of "lol GG" "ouch that's bad, GG" comments right after the first battle. /rant * Deathball + Show Spoiler +The threshold for a deathball army varies depending on which stage of the game we are at. But under most scenarios, deathball = ~90% of your current army supply. 1.Actually the reason why you used to hear screams form other zones is because this years mlg venue is a lot smaller compared to last years and the noise issolation is quite bad.The crowd that you mostly likely hear is the COD crowd since I think,but not too certain they are the center stage and basicly anybody can hear them. 2.moreover you would be surprised but in really exiciting game such as Catz vs Dragon or Illusion vs Incontrol sc2 fans were actually loud and cod and lol people in chat complained quite a lot.And i know this since i had all 3 streams open at the same time.And it is normal.The venue is small and every time something exciting happens in any game and the crowd starts yelling the noise is heard by all of the other crowds and hence all of the other streams. 3.Actually comebacks are quite rare in lol.You may have heard about the term known as "snowballing" used by lots of moba players 4.Lol is very fun to watch just like sc2.If you like lol why don't you simply watch lol without derailing the thread with a pessimisitic "sc2 is dying post"  lol The guy tunes in to LoL for the first time and thinks the game is about hope? I guess now would be a good time to tell him there are more throws in the NA LoL scene compared to the rest. Yes, snowballing is a factor but these NA teams do make a lot of mistakes and that's what causes the comebacks. There were a couple of entertaining games last night, but let's not kid ourselves. There's a lot of improvement these boys can make and they have a long way to go to catch up to the Koreans just like every other game. If he were to tune into let's say the Korean scene he would see a much different story. Way less throws and once one side wins a couple of team fights. Oh boy, do they ever snowball hard. Then what is keeping the fans watching a 40 minute slaughter if they don't have reasonable hope that their team can still win? And also the key differences here being "once one side wins a couple of battles", this is precisely what we need in SC2 instead of the "once one side wins THE battle" we are having now. Edit:I want SC2 to survive and conquer. For that to happen, we need more fans to show (new)sponsors that this SC2 money is worth it. Right now it seems we are losing both sponsors and fans everyday. Anyway I am starting to derail the thread so I better stop now. Thanks for everyone that provided their own opinions.
Probably because they like LoL? There's no hope. LoL is plenty of things, but it is not a shit game that you can come back in when they have a better late game comp and you're down 10k net gold. Perhaps that can actually happen in DotA2 if you have very specific comps in which 1 spell can annihilate the entire opposing team if used in the perfect situation.
This irony is that LoL is literally a death ball walking around and having the fight. LoL has many viewers because there are many people who like playing LoL. Watch some decent players play TvZ it's the opposite of what you describe. Watching Sound v Moonglade right now, I can tell you that you either watch Stephano's borefest swarm host all the time or just have no clue what you're talking about.
Fans have watched more than 40 minute slaughters. I've seen them watch a 2 hour slaughter. 2 hours of a team standing no chance even if one of the opposing players died of a heart attack, because they were so up that one of the opponents could play on 2 computers. The fans were cheering every single time a ward died. That's like cheering every single time a scout ling died. There was no hope. These guys just liked watching LoL.
Back to relevancy, the actual STX group may still live. Their shipping is obviously a huge part of their business, but huge companies don't just pitch over and die.
On the other hand, it would be just awesome if something like Redbull funding a Startale team in proleague could happen. That or LG funding an IM team.
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Oh man, I really wonder about ProLeague...
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If the rumors are true...
Need a GSTL/SPL merger
KT
SKT T1
Woongjin Stars
Samsung Khan
CJ Entus
EG-TL
Axiom
Startale
LG-IM
MVP
Prime/NsHoseo merger
Teams disbanding:
Kespa T8
STX Soul
Azubu
11 team, team league.
Best tthing to possibly happen.
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On June 30 2013 04:38 LighT. wrote:
If the rumors are true...
Need a GSTL/SPL merger
KT
SKT T1
Woongjin Stars
Samsung Khan
CJ Entus
EG-TL
Axiom
Startale
LG-IM
MVP
Prime/NsHoseo merger
Teams disbanding:
Kespa T8
STX Soul
Azubu
11 team, team league.
Best tthing to possibly happen.
I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on that. 12 teams would be better Prime and NsHoseo should stay separate
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On June 30 2013 03:36 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 01:12 forumtext wrote:On June 30 2013 01:02 StarStruck wrote:On June 30 2013 00:50 theking1 wrote:On June 30 2013 00:20 forumtext wrote:Save SC while we still can! I think we need to begin to face the fact that SC2 as an epsort game is simply lacking some areas. I was watching SC2 MLG last night and keep hearing the crowds cheers from the other sections, so I decided to watch some LOL seriously for the first time, just to see why it has succeed in the shadows of BW whereas SC2, the rightful heir is fading away. And the conclusion is - hope! In competitions, hope is a powerful incentive that keeps the fans on their toes and stops players from giving up. In almost every LOL battle, there is always hope at the end of it that the losing team can still win the war, and for the victorious, there is hope that they will capitalise the advantage and wins the game. Now let's go back to the state of SC2 today. Around 80% of the game I watch follows this pattern: Player build up their deathballs*, deathballs meet, one of them wins and usually with >40% of their army alive (imho it's due to perfect AI combined with fast pace game play but that's for anther debate), and here is where hope ends in SC2. I am not saying you cannot come back from this spot, but for anyone that watches Pro SC2 regularly, we all know that the chances are close to impossible. Sadly. most of the time our instinct is correct and the loser will just roll-over and dies. Sure, someone will probably bring up examples of games where players do come back from a deficit, but that is a scarce occurrence in today's SC2. Without hope, players gives up after that first "Deathball v Deathball" encounter. Fans lose interests too because they know the result will likely to be the same as the other 9000+ "Deathball v Deathball" encounters they've watched. Evidence of players giving up includes the now extremely common Deathball battle -> GG. And for the viewers, you just need to see the amount of "lol GG" "ouch that's bad, GG" comments right after the first battle. /rant * Deathball + Show Spoiler +The threshold for a deathball army varies depending on which stage of the game we are at. But under most scenarios, deathball = ~90% of your current army supply. 1.Actually the reason why you used to hear screams form other zones is because this years mlg venue is a lot smaller compared to last years and the noise issolation is quite bad.The crowd that you mostly likely hear is the COD crowd since I think,but not too certain they are the center stage and basicly anybody can hear them. 2.moreover you would be surprised but in really exiciting game such as Catz vs Dragon or Illusion vs Incontrol sc2 fans were actually loud and cod and lol people in chat complained quite a lot.And i know this since i had all 3 streams open at the same time.And it is normal.The venue is small and every time something exciting happens in any game and the crowd starts yelling the noise is heard by all of the other crowds and hence all of the other streams. 3.Actually comebacks are quite rare in lol.You may have heard about the term known as "snowballing" used by lots of moba players 4.Lol is very fun to watch just like sc2.If you like lol why don't you simply watch lol without derailing the thread with a pessimisitic "sc2 is dying post" lol The guy tunes in to LoL for the first time and thinks the game is about hope? I guess now would be a good time to tell him there are more throws in the NA LoL scene compared to the rest. Yes, snowballing is a factor but these NA teams do make a lot of mistakes and that's what causes the comebacks. There were a couple of entertaining games last night, but let's not kid ourselves. There's a lot of improvement these boys can make and they have a long way to go to catch up to the Koreans just like every other game. If he were to tune into let's say the Korean scene he would see a much different story. Way less throws and once one side wins a couple of team fights. Oh boy, do they ever snowball hard. Then what is keeping the fans watching a 40 minute slaughter if they don't have reasonable hope that their team can still win? And also the key differences here being "once one side wins a couple of battles", this is precisely what we need in SC2 instead of the "once one side wins THE battle" we are having now. Edit:I want SC2 to survive and conquer. For that to happen, we need more fans to show (new)sponsors that this SC2 money is worth it. Right now it seems we are losing both sponsors and fans everyday. Anyway I am starting to derail the thread so I better stop now. Thanks for everyone that provided their own opinions. Probably because they like LoL? There's no hope. LoL is plenty of things, but it is not a shit game that you can come back in when they have a better late game comp and you're down 10k net gold. Perhaps that can actually happen in DotA2 if you have very specific comps in which 1 spell can annihilate the entire opposing team if used in the perfect situation. This irony is that LoL is literally a death ball walking around and having the fight. LoL has many viewers because there are many people who like playing LoL. Watch some decent players play TvZ it's the opposite of what you describe. Watching Sound v Moonglade right now, I can tell you that you either watch Stephano's borefest swarm host all the time or just have no clue what you're talking about. Fans have watched more than 40 minute slaughters. I've seen them watch a 2 hour slaughter. 2 hours of a team standing no chance even if one of the opposing players died of a heart attack, because they were so up that one of the opponents could play on 2 computers. The fans were cheering every single time a ward died. That's like cheering every single time a scout ling died. There was no hope. These guys just liked watching LoL. Back to relevancy, the actual STX group may still live. Their shipping is obviously a huge part of their business, but huge companies don't just pitch over and die. On the other hand, it would be just awesome if something like Redbull funding a Startale team in proleague could happen. That or LG funding an IM team.
LoL and SC2 sccene is pretty similar than people think.
in SC2 scene, you have the EU/NA scene where you have incredible games. Why? Because they're players with alot of flaws in the game, players who arent as adaptable so you have a lot of back and forth action packed games where you dont know who's going to win even though a team has a sizeable lead.
In the KR scene, players are nearly perfect. More advanced. More fundamentally sound. Extremely adaptable. Such that once a team gives up an INCH, that basically means they lose the game.
Sound familar?
It's similar in the SC2 scene. Eu/NA, great entertaining games. Not of the highest quality. Incredible comebacks are seen because players arent as perfect. in the KR scene, at the top of the competition, once the player has somewhat of a decent advantage, you aren't going to come back. Fall behind against Rain/Flash/Innovation/Life/Parting and see how many times you can come back. Maybe once out of 100 if lucky?
Anyway, if it's true that STX is getting rid of their football team, its likely they'll get rid of the esports team as well. It's different from the WJS case it looks like. The only way to salvage the situation is if they can make it very convincing that STX SouL deserves to stay and the only justifable case to back that point up is to win the SPL and that huge prize pool.
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On June 30 2013 04:40 invisigoat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 04:38 LighT. wrote:
If the rumors are true...
Need a GSTL/SPL merger
KT
SKT T1
Woongjin Stars
Samsung Khan
CJ Entus
EG-TL
Axiom
Startale
LG-IM
MVP
Prime/NsHoseo merger
Teams disbanding:
Kespa T8
STX Soul
Azubu
11 team, team league.
Best tthing to possibly happen. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on that. 12 teams would be better Prime and NsHoseo should stay separate
For Prime/NsHoseo, I dont think they have the funding to really enter a proleague with the big guns, considering you need to pay a handsome fee just to compete. Prime/NsHoseo combined should make funding a lot more affordable, with the support of GomTV. NsHoseo is just a school after all..and Prime...well they arent a very rich team.
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EPT
