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At least he got to live the dream for awhile, best of luck with what ever you do next major!
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On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim.
Agreed 100% with you.
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I hope Major can win tonight then fly back to Mexico using his cape
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On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim.
Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best.
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On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best.
Lol any popular streamer will get so much biased fanboyism. Demuslim isn't even top 5 IMO. Surprised Snute doesn't get much love, he was beasting up Korean GM, did well in the WSC, and now doing well in the HSC
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There is virtualy no evidence to claim that Demuslim is the best foreigner. If you don`t compete in Foreigner tours then you can rock the ladder as much as you like. It doesn`t count. To be even considered a top5 foreigner you have to show that you have a good focus in offline matches, that you have your nerves under control, that you can adapt very well in bo3/5s etc. Snute, Lucifron, Stephano, Naniwa, TLO proved that they can do it. Demu simply hasn`t.
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Calling Demuslim the best foreigner is absurd.
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He had a good run. I think he was really nervous, could have been a better game if he was calm.
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On June 23 2013 17:21 Locke- wrote:
He had a good run. I think he was really nervous, could have been a better game if he was calm.
That was a build order loss. What more do you think he could have done? I was a bit surprised he even cleaned up the marauders.
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On June 23 2013 17:10 gruff wrote:
Calling Demuslim the best foreigner is absurd.
maybe he is not the best, but what if someone asks who is better flash or innovation? the margins are very tiny and demuslim sure can compete with all the other foreign scrubs.
of course he doesnt have tournement results, and if that is what counts he is definately not the best, but ladderwise hes rocking
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LOL @ Demuslim the best foreigner, how delusional can you be? I agree that he's probably not even Top 5 foreigner, or hell even Top 10. He barely competes in anything at all, so unless you want to start pulling facts out of thin air you can't make a case for him being at the top.
Unfortunately the same applies to Major. However, we have more reason to believe he's probably a lot better than Demuslim, or even most foreigners. He's spent the past few months of his life training hardcore with a KeSPA team. Perhaps the only other player who can say this is HuK but well, we all know how HuK's been playing for like, the past 2 years. Compare that to Demuslim, who spends his time stroking his e-rep on cam on the NA Ladder (L O L).
So, objectively speaking we can't really rank either of them until they decide to start attending more events regularly.
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On June 23 2013 18:29 bypLy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 17:10 gruff wrote:
Calling Demuslim the best foreigner is absurd. maybe he is not the best, but what if someone asks who is better flash or innovation? the margins are very tiny and demuslim sure can compete with all the other foreign scrubs. of course he doesnt have tournement results, and if that is what counts he is definately not the best, but ladderwise hes rocking
The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results.
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On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best.
I said he is probably the best. But it is really close among players like Major, Lucifron, Snute and him (maybe I forgot someone else).
The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results.
No terran really has tournaments results as they were just underpowered in WOL relative to HOTS. However lets try to ask the question; Which playerwill perform the best over the next 6 months? Assuming they participate in an equal amount of tournaments, my money is on Demuslim.
LOL @ Demuslim the best foreigner, how delusional can you be? I agree that he's probably not even Top 5 foreigner, or hell even Top 10. He barely competes in anything at all, so unless you want to start pulling facts out of thin air you can't make a case for him being at the top.
Did you absolutely miss the point of my post? Please reread it, because I directly stated that he hadn't played in enough tournaments to demonstrate his skills. However, if your a good enough Sc2 player (and have knowledge and analytical skills) you don't need to rely on results, but can instead asses his weakness's and strenghts by watching him and compare him to other players. As a terran player I can't really asses protoss or zerg players so have to rely on the newb-approach and look at their results to determine who is the best. But based on my observations I think Demuslim is probably the best. Compared to Major he just has much more clean mechanics, while Major has a tendency to demonstrate really unstable unit control. Major probably has slightly better multitasking though. Both players have absolutely perfect macro. In terms of decisionmaking/strategies, both players are lacking a bit (compared to top koreans).
Historical tournmanets results is the easy way too look "smart" in a, discussion. But in terms of predicting future results, a players current skillset (mechanics, strategical capabilitieis, decision making etc) is much more important.
Unfortunately the same applies to Major. However, we have more reason to believe he's probably a lot better than Demuslim, or even most foreigners. He's spent the past few months of his life training hardcore with a KeSPA team. Perhaps the only other player who can say this is HuK but well, we all know how HuK's been playing for like, the past 2 years. Compare that to Demuslim, who spends his time stroking his e-rep on cam on the NA Ladder (L O L).
Unfortunately Majors weakest area is still his unit control. I would be inclined to give the edge to Major if showed he was capable of winning over top foreigners/mediocore koreans by being more cost-efficient, however he still seems to heavily reliant on outdropping the opponents (korea hasn't seemed to benefit him enough in that regard). Demuslims strenght is that he can do everything really really well.
The whole "we have more reason to believe" is just the easy-argument approach. What about watching them play instead and then assess their skillset instead of relying on the "x was good in early 2012, then he trained there --> he must be better. That approach has so many unknown variables, that it becomes useless when we can watch them play instead.
But I think saying that there is 0% probabiliy Demuslim isn't the best foreigner is just extremely ignorant. The other extreme (he is without a doubt the best foreigner) is ignorant as well.
The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results.
Just like Innovation 1-2 months ago right?
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On June 23 2013 19:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote:On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. I said he is probably the best. But it is really close among players like Major, Lucifron, Snute and him (maybe I forgot someone else). Show nested quote +The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results. No terran really has tournaments results as they were just underpowered in WOL relative to HOTS. However lets try to ask the question; Which playerwill perform the best over the next 6 months? Assuming they participate in an equal amount of tournaments, my money is on Demuslim.
While I do think that demuslim has the potential to be a great player, I think you're forgetting one important variable in the foreign scene: Chinese players. I'd imagine over the coming months the best foreigner will be one hailing from China. Jim, MacSed, Top, and XY are all great players and will continue to improve in the coming months (especially once you consider that they have WCS AM as their main motivation - all 4 of those players went from WCS challenger league to premier league rather decisively).
In the coming months I'd imagine the SC2 to pick up in China. They're throwing a massive few month long tournament for SC2 (which even includes HotS - which still hasn't been officially released in china but is very close) and I think that the success of the chinese professional players in WCS AM will inspire other countrymen to take up the game ala WC3.
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On June 23 2013 19:24 Hellbat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:14 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote:On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. I said he is probably the best. But it is really close among players like Major, Lucifron, Snute and him (maybe I forgot someone else). The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results. No terran really has tournaments results as they were just underpowered in WOL relative to HOTS. However lets try to ask the question; Which playerwill perform the best over the next 6 months? Assuming they participate in an equal amount of tournaments, my money is on Demuslim. While I do think that demuslim has the potential to be a great player, I think you're forgetting one important variable in the foreign scene: Chinese players. I'd imagine over the coming months the best foreigner will be one hailing from China. Jim, MacSed, Top, and XY are all great players and will continue to improve in the coming months (especially once you consider that they have WCS AM as their main motivation - all 4 of those players went from WCS challenger league to premier league rather decisively). In the coming months I'd imagine the SC2 to pick up in China. They're throwing a massive few month long tournament for SC2 (which even includes HotS - which still hasn't been officially released in china but is very close) and I think that the success of the chinese professional players in WCS AM will inspire other countrymen to take up the game ala WC3.
Well your right I definitely forgot about that variable. But please note I am not talking about potential, but in temrs of current skillset which will be a good predictor of the best results over the next 6 months.
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The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on.
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On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on.
So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major?
This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10".
2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline
2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline
2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline
▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide
2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online
2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online
2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online
▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide
2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online
2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online
▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide
2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online
2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online
2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online
2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online
How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago?
I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl).
Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results).
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On June 23 2013 16:33 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote:On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote:On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote:On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote:On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote:
He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. Lol any popular streamer will get so much biased fanboyism. Demuslim isn't even top 5 IMO. Surprised Snute doesn't get much love, he was beasting up Korean GM, did well in the WSC, and now doing well in the HSC
He isn't even top 32 probably. He would have a hard time to qualify for WCS EU.
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Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything.
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EPT
