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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
He had this to add about his reasons for going back to his home. I would love to continue but Kespa is cutting 4 players and I'm one of those. He will be traveling back to Mexico next week. Good luck to him on his travels. 
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33327 Posts
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Zealos
United Kingdom3575 Posts
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BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
back to the ROOTs | ||
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:55 RPR_Tempest wrote: He never even got a real opportunity. Sad to see. well the games he played he got demolished he should not get in lineup just by being a foreign, play good be in top of team and play thats the kespa world ... sad for him | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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SongMeister
United States20 Posts
I remember his first proleague match.... I'd hate to say he lost badly but it was pretty damn one sided (tvp on neoplanet s, mabye it was herO? Idk) but yeah that must've been bad to see on the coaches' point of view. Good luck major!! | ||
Wunder
United Kingdom2950 Posts
this makes me sad. I wonder who the other 3 players are | ||
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AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
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netherDrake
Singapore1831 Posts
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GnoM
Norway145 Posts
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Regorr
306 Posts
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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ratbert
Germany1041 Posts
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YourGoodFriend
United States2197 Posts
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
They really look happy together whenever the PL camera men show the T8 bench. | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
I wonder whether Jaedong will be one of the four? As in permanent transfer to EG? | ||
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Ichabod
United States1659 Posts
Although, now he gets a chance to come back to NA and make some waves in WCS! | ||
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zantomun
United States37 Posts
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KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
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Rokevo
Finland1033 Posts
Hope one day you get another chance. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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Meow-Meow
Germany451 Posts
This seems much like his usual team-hopping, which in this case is rather unfair. | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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asdfou420
Korea (North)49 Posts
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Proseat
Germany5113 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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WhiteIdra
22 Posts
damn, best of lucks to him! | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Fishriot
United States621 Posts
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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FaCE_1
Canada6168 Posts
GL in futur Major | ||
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:58 Wunder wrote: this makes me sad. I wonder who the other 3 players areMe too. I'm not familiar with how Team 8 works, when he says 4 players are cut, are they all in Team 8 roster or can it be some aspirants ? | ||
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
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EnumaAvalon
Philippines3613 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
Eighth Team needs dat monies. | ||
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
That's too bad, he really seemed at home there. Oh well, he'll find a few more by the end of the year  | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
A kespa team was never going to keep him long term, he simply isn't good enough. | ||
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mrhobbers
109 Posts
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
but on the bright side, at least they still continue operation | ||
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Detri
United Kingdom683 Posts
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
Major I will continue supporting you and Team 8! | ||
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KazmA
United States117 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37015 Posts
Best of luck MajOr! | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
Major taking it like a fuckin champ though. | ||
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Meow-Meow
Germany451 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:16 emythrel wrote: He simply isn't good enough. How could you possibly say that? We haven't seen him in any tournament in ages and according to the Tosis, KESPA-teams take at least half a year before they evaluate whether or not a player is competent enough to stay in. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
im sure ur skill sky rocketed during your time there, and im sure you learned some tricks to practice efficiently! gl with your next move | ||
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Eggi
478 Posts
Thats just me, I think the age of foreigners is just about gone. It will go back to how it was in BW | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:59 winthrop wrote: ROOT.Major ROOT.Princess yo! | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:20 Meow-Meow wrote: How could you possibly say that? We haven't seen him in any tournament in ages and according to the Tosis, KESPA-teams take at least half a year before they evaluate whether or not a player is competent enough to stay in. And it's been half a year since Major joined Team 8. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:20 Meow-Meow wrote: How could you possibly say that? We haven't seen him in any tournament in ages and according to the Tosis, KESPA-teams take at least half a year before they evaluate whether or not a player is competent enough to stay in. didn't take long for puzzle! | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:16 emythrel wrote: I know that its not his choice, but is anyone really surprised? He can't stay on one team for more than 6 months. A kespa team was never going to keep him long term, he simply isn't good enough. pretty much this. I keep on hearing that he's a great player but tbh, only saw his recent ones which didn't look good for someone who is getting trained in Korea. Regardless, good luck to major! | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:20 Meow-Meow wrote: How could you possibly say that? We haven't seen him in any tournament in ages and according to the Tosis, KESPA-teams take at least half a year before they evaluate whether or not a player is competent enough to stay in. KT signed Puzzle and he started playing in Proleague a couple of weeks later though. | ||
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SHOOG
United States1639 Posts
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RaClaw
Turkey114 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
at least he gets better chances for wcs am | ||
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
Maybe try joining NS Hoseo, they are in desperate need of new players and I don't think they can afford to be picky. I doubt they would pay you though. | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
After all, he was the first one to call out Bogus' dominance? | ||
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
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Taefox
1533 Posts
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Fix637
United States256 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
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ElhayM
Canada134 Posts
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Erraa93
Australia891 Posts
Good luck juan. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
Edit: at least not many | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Sad that he has to leave Korea, but he achieved his dream for a bit at least, and he has a home to come back to as well (I would assume anyway, thanks Catz...?) | ||
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Betelgeuse
Canada210 Posts
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:59 Regorr wrote: RIP IN PEACE rest in peace in peace? | ||
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ETisME
12364 Posts
I was quite surprised he got into T8. Looks like his team switch is not just his fault, it's a curse upon him | ||
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walt8642
United States22 Posts
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Fischbacher
Canada666 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:08 walt8642 wrote: How is this sad? He left literally the worst korean team and is going back to ROOT, one of the best NA teams. Team 8 is still better than any North American team. Heck, in SPL Team 8 is doing better than EG and TL combined... | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:09 Fischbacher wrote: Team 8 is still better than any North American team... (And I say that as an EG fan) And they would probably win GSTL. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
LG-IM might have something to say about that, in fact I think LG-IM could enter proleague comfortably. Anyway sad for Major but hopefully he can bounce back. | ||
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Ballack
Norway821 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
He is just LOW EU level...Its only normal they would cut him off. Sad but true,maybe majOr wasn't fitted for a kespa training regime,i hope he comes back later with a much more awesome spirit ! | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:56 Waxangel wrote: wow sucks that they don't have the budget for him for another season :/ Regardless still probably cost a lot to feed a human being for awhile. Of course the living quarters can always be argued to not cost much if they are compacted in there but food still a necessity | ||
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KarlKaliente
United States434 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:08 walt8642 wrote: How is this sad? He left literally the worst korean team and is going back to ROOT, one of the best NA teams. Because his dream was to play in Korea, now he has to settle for something not as ideal to him because of his performance. Root is a good fallback plan though, at least as a fan. I can't wait to see him in more NA/EU events. | ||
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itsdaniel
Austria334 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51478 Posts
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:11 Gosi wrote: EG-TL would be stupid to not sign him for the next Proleague season if he now wants to stay in Korea. Why? I'd love to see majOr kicking ass in Korea and following his dream as much as anyone else, but let's be real. EGTL doesn't need to sign any more marginal players, they've got more than enough of those as it is. They need players who can win games vs KeSPA players... | ||
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
Good luck Major. | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
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Swampsteel
United States94 Posts
gl Major fighting | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:08 walt8642 wrote: How is this sad? He left literally the worst korean team and is going back to ROOT, one of the best NA teams. 10/10 would get trolled again. | ||
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:22 SupLilSon wrote: Why? I'd love to see majOr kicking ass in Korea and following his dream as much as anyone else, but let's be real. EGTL doesn't need to sign any more marginal players, they've got more than enough of those as it is. They need players who can win games vs KeSPA players... Terran, cheap and reliable sparring partner with the potential to be as good as your avarage second or third Terran in a mid to low KeSPA/GSTL team. | ||
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BatesCsC
United States99 Posts
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QQKachoo
United States192 Posts
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
That sucks for him though. I know he really had his heart set on a Kespa team. | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
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zelderan
United States163 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5594 Posts
I would love to continue but Kespa is cutting 4 players and I'm one of those. This sounds ominous. | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
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QQKachoo
United States192 Posts
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onedayclose
United States1145 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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TheRealNanMan
United States1471 Posts
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paradoxOO9
United Kingdom1123 Posts
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fuzzylogic44
Canada2633 Posts
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Heouf
Netherlands787 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 Grettin wrote: Nice to hear it wasn't his own choice to leave the team. Also sad to hear that Kespa is cutting players. Good luck Major. Seconded, thought he left the team for missing home like 99% of foreigners in Korea the moment I saw the title. At least Major gave it his best shot with no regrets. His sportsmanship is a model to all progamers within the foreign scene. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
. Show us how you improved now! GL | ||
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
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matsushi
Philippines65 Posts
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elfonse
416 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:10 trifecta wrote: so Team 8 has six players now? holy fuck unless team8 is cutting 4 players to acquire one big player................................. | ||
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
Good luck to major | ||
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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:14 elfonse wrote: unless team8 is cutting 4 players to acquire one big player................................. Maybe they are cutting players to save budget to get Jaedong back from EG | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
he has the korean training regime in mine and can use this to his advantage, so gl to JUANITO. | ||
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asdfOu
United States2089 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:53 Zaphid wrote: So Team 8 is basically dead... they are so strong thoughh.. T_T | ||
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zalem95
Peru184 Posts
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
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misspoo
France63 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Comadevil
Germany214 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:53 misspoo wrote: I really don't like this type of player, character. Go to one team and an other. This goal was to be in a KOR team, he did it but now he just leave the team again? Why don't you justread the OP before making useless assumptions??? He had to leave because he was cut | ||
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Meow-Meow
Germany451 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:53 misspoo wrote: I really don't like this type of player, character. Go to one team and an other. This goal was to be in a KOR team, he did it but now he just leave the team again? This is what the bad thread title does to people... Just change it to "got removed from", instead of implying it happened on his own volition. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:53 misspoo wrote: I really don't like this type of player, character. Go to one team and an other. This goal was to be in a KOR team, he did it but now he just leave the team again? I really don't like this type of poster. Go from one thread to another never reading one. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:53 misspoo wrote: I really don't like this type of player, character. Go to one team and an other. This goal was to be in a KOR team, he did it but now he just leave the team again? I don't think you understand the circumstances of his leaving. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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Shadow_Dog
Canada427 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:09 IdrA wrote: people should be happy about this. now there's a real chance for a north american to win wcs na. Didn't know Kiwikaki is comin back to SC2, only way NA defend their lands :p | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On June 18 2013 03:53 misspoo wrote: I really don't like this type of player, character. Go to one team and an other. This goal was to be in a KOR team, he did it but now he just leave the team again? User was warned for this post Care to read the OP? | ||
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Levernz
Canada50 Posts
I still don't know why he would join a kespa team on the first place, his skills are not high has people think... Still, glhf in the future pal. User was warned for this post | ||
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Levernz
Canada50 Posts
But my second point is still there. | ||
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hangene92
Canada258 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
GL in the future Major!! | ||
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Fischbacher
Canada666 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:23 Levernz wrote: Why would that be sad if he keep leaving his teams ? I still don't know why he would join a kespa team on the first place, his skills are not high has people think... Still, glhf in the future pal. User was warned for this post Did you even read the OP? KeSPA decided to cut 4 players (presumably from Team 8) and he was one of the people that was let go. | ||
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Ry2D2
United States429 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:57 CoR wrote: well the games he played he got demolished he should not get in lineup just by being a foreign, play good be in top of team and play thats the kespa world ... sad for himHe only played one televised game during the special and it was vs terminator i think. He held is own at the start but with Terminators harass he eventually just got out macrod. Anyways, I was hoping he'd get to play a few games now that T8 has no chance at playoffs. | ||
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Endall
United States66 Posts
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
Because if HS/Haruhi/Pigbaby gets cut, I riot. | ||
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funKy_KroK
France101 Posts
GL for the future ! | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:44 suicideyear wrote: out of curiosity has anyone said who the other 3 cut players were? Because if HS/Haruhi/Pigbaby gets cut, I riot. I dont think it has been said but I dont see why someone actually getting playing time now would be cut. It's probably other players that havent played at all or recently. | ||
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LiLSighKoh
United States588 Posts
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Pwnzer
United States617 Posts
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
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Cheeseling
Ukraine132 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
The whole "cheer for my teammates with or without me" is really heartbreaking, Major probably really cares about those guys. I know that I wouldn't have known as much about the Team 8 guys if I didn't see them interact so kindly and excitedly with Major on camera, so I will keep cheering them on. | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
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Tminus____
249 Posts
 Gratz | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
This way he could stay in korea and help out EGTL when Taeja is abroad | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:59 Regorr wrote: RIP IN PEACE rest in peace in peace ? ^^ well i am so sorry for him ,,, first time HE got cut off a team perhaps is a new experiance for him and also let people talk better about him (no clanhopper anymore etc) | ||
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Rustug
1488 Posts
Best of luck Major! Remember, this is only the beginning. | ||
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Diaresta
United States597 Posts
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StimiLant
United States534 Posts
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Highcounsel
United States132 Posts
On June 18 2013 05:56 CoR wrote: rest in peace in peace ? ^^ well i am so sorry for him ,,, first time HE got cut off a team perhaps is a new experiance for him and also let people talk better about him (no clanhopper anymore etc) RIP in peace is a meme Pretty much sometimes people would add the in peace part without thinking that it becomes redundant, so over time popular streamers/reddit/other sites started to make fun of it and it just started getting used all the time as a fun little joke. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Will continue to cheer for Major. He has a level of dedication that is unmatched by almost any other foreigner. | ||
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On June 18 2013 07:25 lim1017 wrote: This probably means JD wont be returning to Team8 after his year contract with EG. If they are planning to cut 4 players their star player might be available soon, they're clearing up budget: definitely not going to pick him up | ||
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marcjpb
Canada64 Posts
GL with whatever he does next. | ||
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DanLee
Canada316 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 YourGoodFriend wrote: Sad to see, I feel that major has grown a lot in the last year or two definitely a different person/player from kitty/princess from 2 years ago. You mean [gosI]cuteangelkittymajorbritneyprincessterran? Ya I'd say settling on just Major was a huge step forward, damn shame though, he seemed to really like training under kespa and who knows where he could've gotten with a year or two of that training under his belt. He seems like he practices non stop regardless of where he is though but he won't get the same practice quality outside of a kespa house | ||
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Dizzlecto
Netherlands52 Posts
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
Good luck. How about some blogs etc with some insight into team8 and their players? Would be amazing. | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On June 18 2013 07:27 IdrA wrote: That does make sense, but... at this point, JD is probably more valuable for publicity then he is for skill (not that he's bad, but in terms of skill alone I highly doubt he's worth the cost...) and if they're aiming for publicity > sponsors, wouldn't they keep Major? I mean, I highly doubt he's getting paid... yes, room+board and all that, but still...their star player might be available soon, they're clearing up budget: definitely not going to pick him up | ||
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Meatloaf
Spain664 Posts
players get picked in other teams and PL gets a team with big sponsor on the league. ... who am I kidding xD | ||
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TapetalKarma
United States127 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On June 18 2013 08:18 TapetalKarma wrote: maybe now teams will understand he will neve rbe loyal to them worked so hard to be on kespa team. even quits that. honestly its kinda sad He didn't quit, they cut him.... zzzz | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
On June 18 2013 08:17 Meatloaf wrote: next season of proleague: team 8th disbanded and LG-IM pick their place. players get picked in other teams and PL gets a team with big sponsor on the league. ... who am I kidding xD that actually is a real posibility. Also, why would EG not renew JD contracts? they picked him when he was bad at SC2, today he is much better , also Idra is out, Stephano will be out soon, EG has enough free money to get JD for another year. | ||
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TapetalKarma
United States127 Posts
wish him best of luck in the future | ||
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
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theMagus
578 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 18 2013 08:45 theMagus wrote: too bad. seemed like he got along really well with t8 too. He was just happy to be there. Juan always wanted to be apart of a KeSPA team. | ||
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EFermi
United States165 Posts
On June 18 2013 07:25 lim1017 wrote: This probably means JD wont be returning to Team8 after his year contract with EG. If they are planning to cut 4 players Why would JD want to leave EG? They have a very good head coach now, he can go to any international tournament that he wishes, surely gets a nice salary from EG, and is the ace player for his team. The reason for him to leave would be if EG decide to not continue in Proleague. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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tredogz
Canada170 Posts
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yOngKIN
Korea (North)656 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 18 2013 07:27 IdrA wrote: their star player might be available soon, they're clearing up budget: definitely not going to pick him up More like they're getting ready to fold because they don't have a sponsor yet for the team. | ||
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
Also, the title of the thread is pretty bad because it gives people the impression that Major left the team on his own terms and not that he is getting cut from the team. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 YourGoodFriend wrote: Sad to see, I feel that major has grown a lot in the last year or two definitely a different person/player from kitty/princess from 2 years ago. This. I would like to see him in some smaller NA or European invitationals, personally, against opponents of mostly similar skill or above (though one with no absolute top-tier Koreans). See if he can at least get some (more?) victories/achievements under his belt with the skill he's gained and then watch him go through MLG qualifiers or groups. | ||
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MercurialVanjal
14 Posts
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WetSocks
United States953 Posts
I wonder who the other players are | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Conut
Canada1026 Posts
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Darkdwarf
Sweden960 Posts
With the entrance of the KeSPA-teams in the korean sc2-scene, it's only logical that a few teams will die, both in eSF and in KeSPA. One can only hope that they get to participate in a unified team league soon. It would be awesome. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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FlyingFalap
Canada22 Posts
Good luck to ya buddy, hope to see you in the scene soon! -FlyingFalap | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
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Rainbow Cuddles
United States486 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Noooooooooooo | ||
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
If KeSPA struggles to pay that amount.... :/ | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 Grettin wrote: Nice to hear it wasn't his own choice to leave the team. Also sad to hear that Kespa is cutting players. Good luck Major. This is my sentiment as well. When I saw the title I was worried he just got over it. At least he gave it his best shot. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On June 18 2013 11:14 SniXSniPe wrote: This sounds quite troubling. The pay wasn't anything special for the players either. If KeSPA struggles to pay that amount.... :/ It's team 8 though. They don't have much in the way of sponsors. | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
On June 18 2013 11:17 c0ldfusion wrote: It's team 8 though. They don't have much in the way of sponsors. major is honestly one of those players who dont give a crap what he gets, as long as he gets a roof over his head and a chance to play the game kinda sucks though for sc2 in korea meanwhile other teams are thriving with multiple LoL teams.oh well, major should be able to find a team no problem with his new korean-trained skills | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2382 Posts
On June 18 2013 11:14 SniXSniPe wrote: This sounds quite troubling. The pay wasn't anything special for the players either. If KeSPA struggles to pay that amount.... :/ They've already picked up at least 1 new player for next season though, probably more at end of season | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:07 Meow-Meow wrote: Wouldn't "removed from T8" be more accurate? This seems much like his usual team-hopping, which in this case is rather unfair. I agree | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
back to root then? | ||
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fer
Canada375 Posts
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Tarheels
United States55 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24954 Posts
I like Juan, he seems to have a good attitude towards self-improvement, without the results just yet. I wish he actually entered more tournaments so we got to see a bit more of him, the last I saw was in WCS NA when he played with a bit of lag, which is never optimal. | ||
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On June 18 2013 07:27 IdrA wrote: their star player might be available soon, they're clearing up budget: definitely not going to pick him up Honestly, with Kespa reasoning, JD is probably one of the 4 "cut" players. They still consider JD to be "on loan" to EG-TL and part of Team 8's roster. I would not be surprised to see JD "dropped" from Team 8 OR "return" to it. | ||
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On June 18 2013 12:10 Wombat_NI wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Team 8 somewhat subsidised by Kespa? They lack the big name sponsors of the other teams, even a relative noob can see that looking in. Yes, I think the TL;DR version was that the sponsors for one of the Kespa teams withdrew and the team was basically dead, but that left Proleague with 7 teams, which would have wrecked havoc on the format. Kespa solved the problem by stepping in, grabbing up an assortment of players (mostly from the dead team but I think there were exceptions), and putting them together as "Team 8". On the "card" for Team 8 during the "mindmindmind" intro for proleague, it says "Kespa's Team 8". | ||
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
On June 18 2013 12:59 dcemuser wrote: Honestly, with Kespa reasoning, JD is probably one of the 4 "cut" players. They still consider JD to be "on loan" to EG-TL and part of Team 8's roster. I would not be surprised to see JD "dropped" from Team 8 OR "return" to it. Actually that was never the case. JD belongs in body and soul to EG. That annoucement was wrong and was rescinded within the day. Body and soul, fellas. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24954 Posts
If not, I'd love to see him stick with EGTL. He does seem to be actually integrated pretty well there and not just there for the paycheck, and it lets us see a bit more of him at foreign tournaments. Of course the real dream is an integrated teamleague. I don't know if it'll happen, and I don't think the ESF teams can compete with some of the small rosters given the PL format, but long term I do hope to see it. At this time, LGIM seem the only one that really resembles a big Proleague team, with their deep roster and many sponsors. | ||
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MrSexington
United States1768 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:14 MrSexington wrote: Your move Naniwa. AllianceNaniwa -> EGNaniwaRC owait | ||
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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EFermi
United States165 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:10 Wombat_NI wrote: Is Jaedong actually thought of as a real integral part of the Team 8 fabric? I know from the infamous 'PirateZerg' image that he was at Oz, but does Team 8 really have that kind of link with Jaedong in the eyes of the fans? Do Team 8 even really have a big fanbase if they're kind of a melting pot of various other teams and their players? I really don't know this, so would be interested to hear from some of the BW vets. If not, I'd love to see him stick with EGTL. He does seem to be actually integrated pretty well there and not just there for the paycheck, and it lets us see a bit more of him at foreign tournaments. Of course the real dream is an integrated teamleague. I don't know if it'll happen, and I don't think the ESF teams can compete with some of the small rosters given the PL format, but long term I do hope to see it. At this time, LGIM seem the only one that really resembles a big Proleague team, with their deep roster and many sponsors. If Team 8 runs out of money, and EGTL decide to not continue, ESF and KESPA would be fools to not combine into one big team league. | ||
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EvanC
Canada130 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:03 Shinespark wrote: I always thought that the recall clause was disclaimed, but no one ever denied that Jaedong was indeed on a 1-year loan.Actually that was never the case. JD belongs in body and soul to EG. That annoucement was wrong and was rescinded within the day. Body and soul, fellas. | ||
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Krogan
Sweden375 Posts
So while it's sad to see Major being kicked out and I wish him all the best I cannot say I am surprised. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On June 18 2013 17:30 Krogan wrote: He isn't exactly known for being a team player and while Kespa was a dream for him he would have had to be more of a team player than he ever had before. How well did he take being told what to do for 12 hours a day? How well did he handle being told how to play, eat, sleep and exercise? One of the major(not intentional) differences I have noticed with the Kespa players compared to all other is how fit they are and IM being the only esf team that has buff players (and that change only happened after Mvp's injury). So while it's sad to see Major being kicked out and I wish him all the best I cannot say I am surprised. They're cutting 3 other players as well. An educated guess would be that it has to do with Team 8 doing very poorly on the financial side... zzz | ||
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TheSayo182
Italy243 Posts
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:58 EFermi wrote: If Team 8 runs out of money, and EGTL decide to not continue, ESF and KESPA would be fools to not combine into one big team league. Honestly, I think eSF and KeSPA may be forced to combine team leagues whether they want to or not. GSTL ends in July, SPL probably ends in July or August. There's a good chance we could see a few disbands or pullouts on both sides.
If eSF and KeSPA don't work out a combined team league, things could look really ugly until they do. | ||
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zmsFlood
Finland169 Posts
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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moochu
Australia374 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:02 dcemuser wrote: Yes, I think the TL;DR version was that the sponsors for one of the Kespa teams withdrew and the team was basically dead, but that left Proleague with 7 teams, which would have wrecked havoc on the format. Kespa solved the problem by stepping in, grabbing up an assortment of players (mostly from the dead team but I think there were exceptions), and putting them together as "Team 8". On the "card" for Team 8 during the "mindmindmind" intro for proleague, it says "Kespa's Team 8". For those not in the know assorted plays from the dead team include symbol, shy, ty and dear. Dammit hwaseung if you only stuck around for another season! | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
I think the ideal world is NSHS, Prime and T8 disband and their players get spread out, and then GSTL and Proleague merge. It'll make a sick team league that would join eSF and KeSPA as well as making it a lot more appealing to sponsors. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Waxangel
United States33327 Posts
On June 18 2013 15:27 bduddy wrote: I always thought that the recall clause was disclaimed, but no one ever denied that Jaedong was indeed on a 1-year loan. the recall clause was rescinded but EG has never bothered to clarify the fact that KeSPA and Korean media call it a 'loan' | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2517 Posts
On June 18 2013 17:53 juicyjames wrote: Honestly, I think eSF and KeSPA may be forced to combine team leagues whether they want to or not. GSTL ends in July, SPL probably ends in July or August. There's a good chance we could see a few disbands or pullouts on both sides.
If eSF and KeSPA don't work out a combined team league, things could look really ugly until they do. EG-TL will return due to their recent results, at least that´s what I would expect. But there are some other teams that do not have the brightest future imo. What about Prime? Or NSHS? To be honest, the only teams doing well in GSTL are the four on the top. No controversy, good results and money. | ||
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Pippah
Denmark353 Posts
(((( | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24954 Posts
On June 18 2013 19:53 JoeCool wrote: EG-TL will return due to their recent results, at least that´s what I would expect. But there are some other teams that do not have the brightest future imo. What about Prime? Or NSHS? To be honest, the only teams doing well in GSTL are the four on the top. No controversy, good results and money. Axiom/Acer just aren't big enough to do much in PL in terms of roster size. The main problem I foresee for a merge is that many of the eSF teams simply aren't big enough, roster size wise to do much in PL. Would have to be many mergers for them to be competitive imo. LGIM have insane depth and would do very well for sure, they really seem a natural fit but I don't see that with some of the others. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On June 18 2013 20:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Axiom/Acer just aren't big enough to do much in PL in terms of roster size. The main problem I foresee for a merge is that many of the eSF teams simply aren't big enough, roster size wise to do much in PL. Would have to be many mergers for them to be competitive imo. LGIM have insane depth and would do very well for sure, they really seem a natural fit but I don't see that with some of the others. Unless I'm missing something IM, MVP, FXOpen Korea and StarTale all have comparable numbers to KeSPA teams. Based on liquipedia at least. Given Prime, NSHS and Axiom-Acer are probably all a little too small. AZUBU is big enough but given the recent stuff about that that came up I don't know where thats going. Just hope that if they DO merge they don't keep the Proleague format. Not a fan, at all, and probably wouldn't watch it as much as I watch GSTL. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 20:51 -Celestial- wrote: Unless I'm missing something IM, MVP, FXOpen Korea and StarTale all have comparable numbers to KeSPA teams. Based on liquipedia at least. Given Prime, NSHS and Axiom-Acer are probably all a little too small. AZUBU is big enough but given the recent stuff about that that came up I don't know where thats going. Just hope that if they DO merge they don't keep the Proleague format. Not a fan, at all, and probably wouldn't watch it as much as I watch GSTL. What's so wrong with SPL format? | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2517 Posts
On June 18 2013 20:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Axiom/Acer just aren't big enough to do much in PL in terms of roster size. The main problem I foresee for a merge is that many of the eSF teams simply aren't big enough, roster size wise to do much in PL. Would have to be many mergers for them to be competitive imo. LGIM have insane depth and would do very well for sure, they really seem a natural fit but I don't see that with some of the others. Well, I don´t see the problem... If we take AA aside and replace them with FXO. What´s left? LGIM, MVP, ST and FXO. They are big enough and - as for FXO, maybe - strong enough. The other teams are not big enough and they aren´t performing very well either. What I´m trying to say is, size doesn´t matter. Those with a decent size will have no problems, and those who are too small are performing horribly anyways. Let´s be honest it´s all about Prime/NSHS, and I doubt that both of these teams will exist much longer. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
Just not a fan of the "individual 1v1s" setup, much prefer all-kill. Personally I feel it makes teams have to actually work and plan for the match as a whole as a team rather than just prepare for a specific matchup as a group of individuals. The way it plays out reminds me of substitutions and tactical changes in football matches. The 1v1 proleague format is more structured, so whilst the individual games might be better (because you can plan more in advance for a specific matchup) you get less excitement in the match as a whole. You can't have a relatively unknown player suddenly come off the bench and take out Life or something, having been preparing one strategy all week on a specific map to snipe him. I like the mindgames. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 22:02 -Celestial- wrote: Just not a fan of the "individual 1v1s" setup, much prefer all-kill. Personally I feel it makes teams have to actually work and plan for the match as a whole as a team rather than just prepare for a specific matchup as a group of individuals. The way it plays out reminds me of substitutions and tactical changes in football matches. The 1v1 proleague format is more structured, so whilst the individual games might be better (because you can plan more in advance for a specific matchup) you get less excitement in the match as a whole. You can't have a relatively unknown player suddenly come off the bench and take out Life or something, having been preparing one strategy all week on a specific map to snipe him. I like the mindgames. I'd actually say the better team wins with SPL setup whereas the team with the star players wins with all kill. | ||
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Nothera
Czech Republic14 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1966 Posts
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thirtyapm
521 Posts
good luck. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44151 Posts
On June 18 2013 22:46 TaShadan wrote: He was too low for Kespa... I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24954 Posts
On June 18 2013 21:55 JoeCool wrote: Well, I don´t see the problem... If we take AA aside and replace them with FXO. What´s left? LGIM, MVP, ST and FXO. They are big enough and - as for FXO, maybe - strong enough. The other teams are not big enough and they aren´t performing very well either. What I´m trying to say is, size doesn´t matter. Those with a decent size will have no problems, and those who are too small are performing horribly anyways. Let´s be honest it´s all about Prime/NSHS, and I doubt that both of these teams will exist much longer. Weirdly enough I actually went and checked and LGIM actually have a smaller listed roster than the other ones, albeit MC would likely be added. What they do have is a lot of quality players who are doing well in the individual leagues at present, would definitely love to see them competing if a team drops out of Proleague for sure, more for curiosity's sake but I do think they'd do well. However, I do like the GSTL as a competition, it does appear to be a bit on the decline of late although I do enjoy the games. How do people feel EGTL would be doing in GSTL? I realise the merger was kind of a one-off for Proleague reasons, but I would definitely fancy their chances in the allkill format as well. They've now gotten a solid supporting cast to go with Taeja's multikill madness | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On June 18 2013 22:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I agree; many people have talked about his potential, but Major hasn't really shown many good results (either in WoL or HotS, iirc), and there have been many other foreign Terrans who have consistently been better. Potential doesn't mean anything if it never gets unlocked and utilized effectively. That being said, I think it's great he got this opportunity, and I hope he can use this experience to get better in the future. I wonder what team he'll bounce to next. he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44151 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:05 xsnac wrote: he was top5 in house ranking . how is that low ? i hope EG picks him up. Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On June 18 2013 17:53 juicyjames wrote: Honestly, I think eSF and KeSPA may be forced to combine team leagues whether they want to or not. GSTL ends in July, SPL probably ends in July or August. There's a good chance we could see a few disbands or pullouts on both sides.
If eSF and KeSPA don't work out a combined team league, things could look really ugly until they do. I really hope this happens. With many player contracts running out about that time (I think), some restructuring needs to happen in order to avoid ugly buy-out situations. A unified team league would be a decisive step towards stabilizing Korean SC2. GOM and OGN taking turns at WCS already works, they could do so for Proleague as well. Also, it would be awesome. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:21 Reborn8u wrote: I know this might sound crazy at first glance, but I'd really like to see EG or TL pick him up. This guy has definitely worked his ass off to get on team 8, he doesn't have good results but he has experience and is already adapting to the korean lifestyle. I think living in a team house under coach Park, and surrounded by the caliber of EG-TL players in korea, we could see some results from him. I wouldn't expect TL to pick him up, he doesn't seem a fit. | ||
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Spectralx
United States198 Posts
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Nirel
Israel1526 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
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ReboundEU
508 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
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ArcadeR
Germany199 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) when was last time we saw demuslim and thorzain getting into a major tournament ro4 ? y . they are not better terran foreigners . and i think major would be a great pick for pro league . | ||
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
On June 18 2013 11:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: They've already picked up at least 1 new player for next season though, probably more at end of season Forgot about that... and a very good pick-up it was for Team 8. Still though, cutting 4 players is never a good sign :/ | ||
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MChrome
Netherlands201 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Top 5... for Team 8, right? And even if he held a top five position, surely there were many more players who saw at least a little more tournament time than he did. EDIT: I think EG picking him up would be a bit unnecessary, and- at best- redundant... Thorzain and DeMuslim are both better Terran foreigners, and Alive is obviously better too. (I don't know how Major compares to Xenocider; I don't know much about Xeno.) As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. | ||
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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
On June 18 2013 13:02 dcemuser wrote: Yes, I think the TL;DR version was that the sponsors for one of the Kespa teams withdrew and the team was basically dead, but that left Proleague with 7 teams, which would have wrecked havoc on the format. Kespa solved the problem by stepping in, grabbing up an assortment of players (mostly from the dead team but I think there were exceptions), and putting them together as "Team 8". On the "card" for Team 8 during the "mindmindmind" intro for proleague, it says "Kespa's Team 8". Not one team, but three Wemade fox (baby) Mbc game hero (sea, jaehoon, terminator) Oz (jd, cure) | ||
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E95jisA5dL
15 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On June 18 2013 23:51 ReboundEU wrote: Sad isn't that he may left his team, true sad thing is if he doesn't find a new team after. Journeys end while others begin. Glhf Major ROOT4ROOT! | ||
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JtoK
Germany232 Posts
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Gorribal
Canada186 Posts
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Gorribal
Canada186 Posts
On June 19 2013 10:09 JtoK wrote: EG should've picked Major up instead of Xenocider who dropped out of WCS.... But who could knew that before, right?.... | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:56 Waxangel wrote: wow sucks that they don't have the budget for him for another season :/ Yeah. Hopefully e-sports will eventually become as big in the US and Europe as popular conventional sports are, such as baseball and American football (in the US) and soccer (in europe). Then there would be more of a market to support more of the great players that we have. | ||
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Jaded.
United States125 Posts
, maybe he'll be able to start streaming more now though. | ||
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blastyblast21
United States61 Posts
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NewTypeBeez
United States35 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On June 18 2013 01:22 SupLilSon wrote: Why? I'd love to see majOr kicking ass in Korea and following his dream as much as anyone else, but let's be real. EGTL doesn't need to sign any more marginal players, they've got more than enough of those as it is. They need players who can win games vs KeSPA players... + they wont sign anymore foreigners thats for sure | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On June 20 2013 00:06 codonbyte wrote: Yeah. Hopefully e-sports will eventually become as big in the US and Europe as popular conventional sports are, such as baseball and American football (in the US) and soccer (in europe). Then there would be more of a market to support more of the great players that we have. couldn't agree more, but I guess that will never happen | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 20 2013 00:06 codonbyte wrote: Yeah. Hopefully e-sports will eventually become as big in the US and Europe as popular conventional sports are, such as baseball and American football (in the US) and soccer (in europe). Then there would be more of a market to support more of the great players that we have. That's not going to happen lmao and I wouldn't over emphasis T8's budget. As for the players on T8.. there's just not enough there and as far as support goes when it comes to the rest of the world. There are only a handful of teams that are doing well. ;/ On June 21 2013 02:15 Corsica wrote: + they wont sign anymore foreigners thats for sure The team is preparing to disband like many people predicted. KeSPA won't keep them on life-support much longer. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3675 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:28 NexCa wrote: couldn't agree more, but I guess that will never happen I highly highly highly doubt that. If you look at a time spane that inclused people like majors as active players, sure it won't happen. But long-term esports will definetly get on that level, if not bigger. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 19 2013 02:57 ChromeBallz wrote: As much as i like Thorzain, he hasn't performed up to scratch for a year now. His last success was DH Stockholm which was about a year ago - He didn't even get in any top16 since then aside from WCS Sweden. DeMuslim is on an even longer dry spell. That said, it's sad Major had to leave. He never even got the chance to play except in that one 'joke' round of PL. Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:52 Lorch wrote: I highly highly highly doubt that. If you look at a time spane that inclused people like majors as active players, sure it won't happen. But long-term esports will definetly get on that level, if not bigger. About which time spane do we speak here ? I don't think that E-Sports can mess with Soccer in like 20 years, probably 40-50 years, but until then, no way imho | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/24539-major-to-debut-in-proleague-paired-against-flash | ||
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fairymonger
United States81 Posts
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Gorribal
Canada186 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote: Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. lol? Demuslim better than Sjow, better than TLO, the guy who beat Squirtle, Lucifron, Life, Stephano (the guy who got 2nd in WCS EU and took a game off MVP). He isn't participating in big tournaments because he sucks too much to get in them lol | ||
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
On June 21 2013 09:56 fairymonger wrote: seems that man can never stay in a team that long..... he stayed on a kespa team just about as long as any other foreigner managed to do. the difference is he would have stayed longer had he been given the choice. | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On June 21 2013 08:49 ReachTheSky wrote: Look on the bright side everyone, at least he will get to play a proleague match vs flash on the 23rd! http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/24539-major-to-debut-in-proleague-paired-against-flash how lovely. a really awesome goodbye gift! | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On June 21 2013 15:35 Terranist wrote: he stayed on a kespa team just about as long as any other foreigner managed to do. the difference is he would have stayed longer had he been given the choice. And he's going to play in a proleague match, something Idra never manged to accomplish. | ||
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gulati
United States2241 Posts
pretty intense to think of that... against flash too haha | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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takingbackoj
United States684 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote: Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Agreed 100% with you. | ||
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:03 Hider wrote: Demuslim is probably the best foreigner at the moment. However, he isn't participating in any major tournaments really so had had not have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate his skills. Thorzain though is something completely else, I would argue that Major is a level above him, and Major is probably the second best foreign terran (next to Demuslim). EDIT: Forgot about lucifron. He is probably up there with Major and Demuslim. Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote: Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. Lol any popular streamer will get so much biased fanboyism. Demuslim isn't even top 5 IMO. Surprised Snute doesn't get much love, he was beasting up Korean GM, did well in the WSC, and now doing well in the HSC | ||
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Irrational_Animal
Germany1059 Posts
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bypLy
757 Posts
too bad he didnt scout against flash | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
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Locke-
499 Posts
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Contraband8
Canada5 Posts
On June 23 2013 17:21 Locke- wrote: He had a good run. I think he was really nervous, could have been a better game if he was calm. That was a build order loss. What more do you think he could have done? I was a bit surprised he even cleaned up the marauders. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On June 23 2013 17:10 gruff wrote: Calling Demuslim the best foreigner is absurd. maybe he is not the best, but what if someone asks who is better flash or innovation? the margins are very tiny and demuslim sure can compete with all the other foreign scrubs. of course he doesnt have tournement results, and if that is what counts he is definately not the best, but ladderwise hes rocking | ||
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fer
Canada375 Posts
Unfortunately the same applies to Major. However, we have more reason to believe he's probably a lot better than Demuslim, or even most foreigners. He's spent the past few months of his life training hardcore with a KeSPA team. Perhaps the only other player who can say this is HuK but well, we all know how HuK's been playing for like, the past 2 years. Compare that to Demuslim, who spends his time stroking his e-rep on cam on the NA Ladder (L O L). So, objectively speaking we can't really rank either of them until they decide to start attending more events regularly. | ||
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
On June 23 2013 18:29 bypLy wrote: maybe he is not the best, but what if someone asks who is better flash or innovation? the margins are very tiny and demuslim sure can compete with all the other foreign scrubs. of course he doesnt have tournement results, and if that is what counts he is definately not the best, but ladderwise hes rocking The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 15:42 crbox wrote: Demuslim best foreigner? Are you out of your mind lol I mean he's definitely good but that's quite the statement to say he's the best. I said he is probably the best. But it is really close among players like Major, Lucifron, Snute and him (maybe I forgot someone else). The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results. No terran really has tournaments results as they were just underpowered in WOL relative to HOTS. However lets try to ask the question; Which playerwill perform the best over the next 6 months? Assuming they participate in an equal amount of tournaments, my money is on Demuslim. LOL @ Demuslim the best foreigner, how delusional can you be? I agree that he's probably not even Top 5 foreigner, or hell even Top 10. He barely competes in anything at all, so unless you want to start pulling facts out of thin air you can't make a case for him being at the top. Did you absolutely miss the point of my post? Please reread it, because I directly stated that he hadn't played in enough tournaments to demonstrate his skills. However, if your a good enough Sc2 player (and have knowledge and analytical skills) you don't need to rely on results, but can instead asses his weakness's and strenghts by watching him and compare him to other players. As a terran player I can't really asses protoss or zerg players so have to rely on the newb-approach and look at their results to determine who is the best. But based on my observations I think Demuslim is probably the best. Compared to Major he just has much more clean mechanics, while Major has a tendency to demonstrate really unstable unit control. Major probably has slightly better multitasking though. Both players have absolutely perfect macro. In terms of decisionmaking/strategies, both players are lacking a bit (compared to top koreans). Historical tournmanets results is the easy way too look "smart" in a, discussion. But in terms of predicting future results, a players current skillset (mechanics, strategical capabilitieis, decision making etc) is much more important. Unfortunately the same applies to Major. However, we have more reason to believe he's probably a lot better than Demuslim, or even most foreigners. He's spent the past few months of his life training hardcore with a KeSPA team. Perhaps the only other player who can say this is HuK but well, we all know how HuK's been playing for like, the past 2 years. Compare that to Demuslim, who spends his time stroking his e-rep on cam on the NA Ladder (L O L). Unfortunately Majors weakest area is still his unit control. I would be inclined to give the edge to Major if showed he was capable of winning over top foreigners/mediocore koreans by being more cost-efficient, however he still seems to heavily reliant on outdropping the opponents (korea hasn't seemed to benefit him enough in that regard). Demuslims strenght is that he can do everything really really well. The whole "we have more reason to believe" is just the easy-argument approach. What about watching them play instead and then assess their skillset instead of relying on the "x was good in early 2012, then he trained there --> he must be better. That approach has so many unknown variables, that it becomes useless when we can watch them play instead. But I think saying that there is 0% probabiliy Demuslim isn't the best foreigner is just extremely ignorant. The other extreme (he is without a doubt the best foreigner) is ignorant as well. The flash vs innovation analogy you made was horrible and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Demuslim has literally zero tournament results. Just like Innovation 1-2 months ago right? | ||
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Hellbat
223 Posts
On June 23 2013 19:14 Hider wrote: I said he is probably the best. But it is really close among players like Major, Lucifron, Snute and him (maybe I forgot someone else). No terran really has tournaments results as they were just underpowered in WOL relative to HOTS. However lets try to ask the question; Which playerwill perform the best over the next 6 months? Assuming they participate in an equal amount of tournaments, my money is on Demuslim. While I do think that demuslim has the potential to be a great player, I think you're forgetting one important variable in the foreign scene: Chinese players. I'd imagine over the coming months the best foreigner will be one hailing from China. Jim, MacSed, Top, and XY are all great players and will continue to improve in the coming months (especially once you consider that they have WCS AM as their main motivation - all 4 of those players went from WCS challenger league to premier league rather decisively). In the coming months I'd imagine the SC2 to pick up in China. They're throwing a massive few month long tournament for SC2 (which even includes HotS - which still hasn't been officially released in china but is very close) and I think that the success of the chinese professional players in WCS AM will inspire other countrymen to take up the game ala WC3. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 19:24 Hellbat wrote: While I do think that demuslim has the potential to be a great player, I think you're forgetting one important variable in the foreign scene: Chinese players. I'd imagine over the coming months the best foreigner will be one hailing from China. Jim, MacSed, Top, and XY are all great players and will continue to improve in the coming months (especially once you consider that they have WCS AM as their main motivation - all 4 of those players went from WCS challenger league to premier league rather decisively). In the coming months I'd imagine the SC2 to pick up in China. They're throwing a massive few month long tournament for SC2 (which even includes HotS - which still hasn't been officially released in china but is very close) and I think that the success of the chinese professional players in WCS AM will inspire other countrymen to take up the game ala WC3. Well your right I definitely forgot about that variable. But please note I am not talking about potential, but in temrs of current skillset which will be a good predictor of the best results over the next 6 months. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote: The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). | ||
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Bizeheryer
Germany307 Posts
On June 23 2013 16:33 Benzzro wrote: Lol any popular streamer will get so much biased fanboyism. Demuslim isn't even top 5 IMO. Surprised Snute doesn't get much love, he was beasting up Korean GM, did well in the WSC, and now doing well in the HSC He isn't even top 32 probably. He would have a hard time to qualify for WCS EU. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:05 GolemMadness wrote: Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything. Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds; 1) Huge variance (not enough data). 2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS. Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong. Based on these results the "there is no way he is not the best foreigner" followed by the "bad result" arugment makes absolutely zero logical sense. But be aware that I am not actually saying "this guys looks the best to me". I am analyzing various qualities of his skills. We can go into a more detailed discussion and comparisons if you want to. Secondly, ladder is another form of results as well. Demuslim is by far the best NA player in terms of ladder results, though obv. I haven't used that argument yet as it is easier than EU ladder (and obv. ladder isn't everything). | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:08 Hider wrote: Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds; 1) Huge variance (not enough data). 2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS. Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong. I don't think that anybody's saying that it's impossible that he'll BECOME the best foreigner, but it makes no sense to say that he IS the best foreigner right now. Even if it is the case that you're great at analysing people's play and you've looked at every top foreigner in depth and decided that Demuslim is the most skilled, it still doesn't mean that he's the best right now given how few real games he's played in HotS. Playing on ladder just isn't the same as playing in a tournament, and you need to show results before you can be considered amongst the best. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote: So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:14 GolemMadness wrote: I don't think that anybody's saying that it's impossible that he'll BECOME the best foreigner, but it makes no sense to say that he IS the best foreigner right now. Even if it is the case that you're great at analysing people's play and you've looked at every top foreigner in depth and decided that Demuslim is the most skilled, it still doesn't mean that he's the best right now given how few real games he's played in HotS. Playing on ladder just isn't the same as playing in a tournament, and you need to show results before you can be considered amongst the best. I don't think he will be the best foreigner 12 months from now on. Right now he is just relying on extremely clean mechanics, but I think he isn't analytical/smart enough to stay there long-term (like Flash/MVP/Stephano has done). But when that is said, I don't really disagree with you. I just looked at some terran playyers play, and based of those observations it seemed probable to me that Demuslim was the best terran player. But the problem with your logic is that I don't think it ever seems to make sense to say someone is the best because there can always be unknown/unobserved variables which one has not taking into account. As I see it, we have limited information and based on that information we can name which player we believe is the best currently. Regarding the last comment: i just knew that sentence would come (Which is why I haven't even mentioned yet that Demuslim went like 14-1 on the ladder against Stephano). But please reread my post - I actually stated that ladder isn't everything as it doesn't really take into account how do set well thought up build orders/strategies to beat your opponent. But in terms of being a great indicator of extremely solid mechanics and ingame decision making it really does a fantastic job of that. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:24 Hider wrote: I don't think he will be the best foreigner 12 months from now on. Right now he is just relying on extremely clean mechanics, but I think he isn't analytical/smart enough to stay there long-term (like Flash/MVP/Stephano has done). But when that is said, I don't really disagree with you. I just looked at some terran playyers play, and based of those observations it seemed probable to me that Demuslim was the best terran player. But the problem with your logic is that I don't think it ever seems to make sense to say someone is the best because there can always be unknown/unobserved variables which one has not taking into account. As I see it, we have limited information and based on that information we can name which player we believe is the best currently. Regarding the last comment: i just knew that sentence would come (Which is why I haven't even mentioned yet that Demuslim went like 14-1 on the ladder against Stephano). But please reread my post - I actually stated that ladder isn't everything as it doesn't really take into account how do set well thought up build orders/strategies to beat your opponent. But in terms of being a great indicator of extremely solid mechanics and ingame decision making it really does a fantastic job of that. The more games people play, the better you can determine who's the best. In Brood War, when Flash was making every finals and just beating everyone, you could clearly say that he was the best. He had the championships, the stats, the games, etc, to back it up. In late 2009, right before he went on his huge run, he was playing just as well. However, you couldn't clearly say that he was the best because that's ALL you had to go on. You need a combination of things to say that someone's really the best. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote: After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name and rate at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. | ||
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Pure Intention
Russian Federation18 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote: Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). You serious? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote: Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote: I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game. | ||
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Msr
Korea (South)495 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:34 Hider wrote: Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters. There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities.. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:17 Msr wrote: There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities.. Did you read what I wrote: While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. or this; or keeping ressources too high. So my implicit assumption is that macro consist of SQ and scv macro. I don't know what else you would take into account. Obviously queing tendencies would inflae SQ values, but I don't think neither Demuslim nor Major really ques more than Innovation/flash. Again, I don't understand people like you: You come into this discussion with the attitude: Flash is bettrer than Demuslim = Macro must be better = Therefore I am wrong. Why didn't you do as I asked you to, and tried to actually examine whether you could fine flaws in their macro? Should I just assume you have tried to do that, but gave up in the proces and due to being bias'ed you didn't change your mind? I can tell you that every game I watch I closely examine the players spending and scv macro skills, and base my grading on assesment of their skills. Have you done the same thing? | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:59 Hider wrote: This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game. Sorry if you think I was being disrespectful. I guess I just meant that we need to see some actual results from Demu before he deserves a top 10, at least in my book. Skills =/= results we all know, but ultimately results are the only thing that matters. | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:17 Msr wrote: There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities.. Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good Also wait what? How is Flash a level behind other terrans, I mean he's top 2 Terran. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:28 Thrillz wrote: Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good Also wait what? How is Flash a level behind other terrans, I mean he's top 2 Terran. He is still behind INnoVation then :-P | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:28 Grovbolle wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 23 2013 20:59 Hider wrote: This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game. Sorry if you think I was being disrespectful. I guess I just meant that we need to see some actual results from Demu before he deserves a top 10, at least in my book. Skills =/= results we all know, but ultimately results are the only thing that matters. But even in your book where I guess you make a weighted average of "actual skills" (which is based on those five categories) and tournament results, how does Happy end up above Demuslim? The reason I found it disrepctful was the claim that he is far away from top 10 as a response to my "actual" skill assesment. Other people have argued that there is no way he is the best. All I want from people is to acknowledge there there is real possiblity that he is the best foreigner in terms of "actual skills". But when that is said, I can follow you too some extent. I mean if there someone came into the board and claimed that they thought the popular personality Demuslim was the best player in the world, and if I hadn't watched him play quite extensively my self, I would probably also think that poster was just being bias'ed in favor of his favourite player (Demuslim). But actually, I don't really like Demuslim, as I typically prefer to relate to personalities that are more similarly to myself. Demuslim seems so unanalytical that it kinda annoys me. But at this point I just think he is so damn underrated (and this discussion IMO prooves it) that I feel like I need to defend him. Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good Hehe. Actually those games (if you watch them) supported my grades pretty well as Demuslim got build-order countered every single game (it was completely ridicilous acutally). But those games doesn't say alot about his mechanical skills. Of course it then depends a bit on how you weight the various categories, but I kinda assume that Demuslim has or will quickly improve upon the build order leaks, and therefore I weight the mechanical skills much higher than the strategical/decision making skills. But when that is said, I think strategies/build orders will always be his largest weakness, and as other players mechanics improves, he will get relatively worse. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:33 Hider wrote: But even in your book where I guess you make a weighted average of "actual skills" (which is based on those five categories) and tournament results, how does Happy end up above Demuslim? The reason I found it disrepctful was the claim that he is far away from top 10 as a response to my "actual" skill assesment. Other people have argued that there is no way he is the best. All I want from people is to acknowledge there there is real possiblity that he is the best foreigner in terms of "actual skills". But when that is said, I can follow you too some extent. I mean if there someone came into the board and claimed that they thought the popular personality Demuslim was the best player in the world, and if I hadn't watched him play quite extensively my self, I would probably also think that poster was just being bias'ed in favor of his favourite player (Demuslim). But actual, I don't really like Demuslim, as I typically prefer to relate to personalities that are more similarly to myself. Demuslim seems so unanalytical that it kinda annoys me. But at this point I just think he is so damn underrated (and this discussion IMO prooves it) that I feel like I need to defend him. Hehe. Actual those games (if you watch them) supported my grades pretty well as Demuslim got build-order countered every single game (it was completely ridicilous acutally). Happy actually plays and wins a lot of tournaments, especially online. Edit: No more derailing, to get higher in my book, Demu needs to actually have 1-2 good tournament showings. | ||
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MaxQT
69 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote: I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true. If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3805 Posts
On June 23 2013 21:56 MaxQT wrote: Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true. If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day. Wrong quote | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote: Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name and rate at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. Giving a 10 to anyone just proves how ignorant you are, let alone Demus and major, what? A 10 essentially means that they have PERFECT macro, consistently. Not even Innovation or Flash has that. Demus does have very good macro, but lacks the speed and multitasking of most of the Kespa player who are all macroing while in tense micro situations and doing this all in a split second. I can't really take you seriously after reading some of you're posts, giving away 9s and 10s so easily rofl. Point is you said Demuslim is the best foreigner which is retarded, you posted his results which showed him beating the most mediocre Korean players, which all the top EU players could take games off, not only that, all of them have significantly improved over the last month (well atleast showed it) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 23 2013 22:16 Benzzro wrote: Giving a 10 to anyone just proves how ignorant you are, let alone Demus and major, what? A 10 essentially means that they have PERFECT macro, consistently. Not even Innovation or Flash has that. No it shows that you don't even read my posts. Here is a quote; where 10 = your as good as the best in the world So yes Flash and INnovation = 10 (lots of other terrans have such such macro where they basically get as good as as anyone else. So no this isn't at all about having perfect macro. Demus does have very good macro, but lacks the speed and multitasking of most of the Kespa player who are all macroing while in tense micro situations and doing this all in a split second. I can't really take you seriously after reading some of you're posts, giving away 9s and 10s so easily rofl. Watch Demuslims games. Just find one example where you believe he has bad macro while micro'ing/multitasking. I graded him 10 because I watched him a lot and his macro is just extremely solid at any possible situation (triple dropping or during big battles w/e he always have a low SQ). In terms of multitasking, I think he is really good, but obv. not a 10. I think either an 8 or a 9 could be justified (with Flash + Innovation + Ty as the only terran 10's). Point is you said Demuslim is the best foreigner which is retarded, you posted his results which showed him beating the most mediocre Korean players, which all the top EU players could take games off, not only that, all of them have significantly improved over the last month (well atleast showed it) Again, if you took the time and read my posts you would realize that your missing the point entirely. The point is that you can't use the data to claim that Demuslim isn't the best player in the world. The results (since HOTS was released) are simply good enough to make it a real possiblity that he is the best foreigner (as many posters have denied). That is why I made a qualitiative analysis instead. Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true. If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day. And here is another one who doesn't read. I quote my self. and 5 = average foreign GM What is it with you guys who gets so offensive without properly reading my posts? I also told another guy a couple of times that he should find examples where he believed Demuslims macro was more flawed than Innovation/flash, but so far he hasn't been capable of it. Do you wanna join the club of shitting on me without any arguments do back up your claim? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true He would probably be the best foreign terran player which is what this discussion is about, right? And yeh the best foreign terran player is capable of beating second-level korean players as well. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production. I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
Oh and 3-1'd Stephano | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 24 2013 01:21 Benzzro wrote: No we HAVE to use data/results to determine who's the best foreigner, if we just go by vods and his stream, we have to go through every single potential 'best player's' stream and vods, which is simply impossible, since there is such a small amount of information available, although if there was a large amount of information I don't think it would help your case, because then you'll realize Demus simply isnt that impressive (Compared to top players). Therefore we determine the best player by results. I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production. I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry. Well why can't you just admit then that you need to rely on data to determine who is the best player, and as the data size is too limited for Demuslim, you can't make a fair assesment of his skill. That is actually what you are implying here. Secondly, we only need to make this analysis for those who are relevant. Like Demuslim, Major, Lucifron etc., top korean terrans (for comparison). You are saying this is impossible and that I don't know what I am talking about (which is weird that you can do this when you haven't read my posts - maybe if you did you would change your mind), but I have too a large extent actually done what you believe is impossible. And my conclusion is that Demuslim is probably the best. Is it possible that I am wrong and that I haven't assed all of the candidates correctly? Sure, of course it is. But you can't say that I am trolling/retarded/ignorant/stupid/don't know what I am talking about untill you have put up some arguments for why you believe some of the candidates should receive better grades than Demuslim. Either do the above, or just admit you don't know how Demuslim compares to these guys (which I think probably is the truth). My first post I said Snute was a beast and IMO the best foreigner, he has 2-0'd Happy, 2-1'd Seed and now just 3-2'd Hyun in HSC, on top of that I saw him playing Korean GM and he was in the top 60 a few weeks ago, finalist for WSC NA. And you're seriously still trying to tell me Demuslim is the best, dude you are so delusional I definitely hold Demuslim as a favourite vs Snute as tvz is his best matchup (as long as it goes to the macro stage Demuslim can beat any zerg in the world). But Snute might be a better player overall (in all 3 matchups). Tough to say. Besides you can't make these type of backwards argument. Like you said Snute might be the best before those results had occured and you admitted you only relied on historical data. Then you can't use future results to admit you were back then (since only historical results matter). You could instead argue that the larger data size has reduced the uncertain variables, and increases the support of your theory of Snute being the best foreigner. The difference between that way of arguing and the approach you took was that you criticized my previous posts of not taking into account results which hadn't even occured yet. | ||
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dangthatsright
1158 Posts
Good luck to MajOr, wherever he goes. Hopefully his time in Korea paid off. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
On June 24 2013 01:36 Hider wrote: Well why can't you just admit then that you need to rely on data to determine who is the best player, and as the data size is too limited for Demuslim, you can't make a fair assesment of his skill. That is actually what you are implying here. Secondly, we only need to make this analysis for those who are relevant. Like Demuslim, Major, Lucifron etc., top korean terrans (for comparison). You are saying this is impossible and that I don't know what I am talking about (which is weird that you can do this when you haven't read my posts - maybe if you did you would change your mind), but I have too a large extent actually done what you believe is impossible. And my conclusion is that Demuslim is probably the best. Is it possible that I am wrong and that I haven't assed all of the candidates correctly? Sure, of course it is. But you can't say that I am trolling/retarded/ignorant/stupid/don't know what I am talking about untill you have put up some arguments for why you believe some of the candidates should receive better grades than Demuslim. Either do the above, or just admit you don't know how Demuslim compares to these guys (which I think probably is the truth). I definitely hold Demuslim as a favourite vs Snute as tvz is his best matchup (as long as it goes to the macro stage Demuslim can beat any zerg in the world). But Snute might be a better player overall (in all 3 matchups). Tough to say. Besides you can't make these type of backwards argument. Like you said Snute might be the best before those results had occured and you admitted you only relied on historical data. Then you can't use future results to admit you were back then (since only historical results matter). You could instead argue that the data size has reduced the uncertain variables, and increases the support of your theory of Snute being the best foreigner. The difference between that way of arguing and the approach you took was that you criticized my previous posts of not taking into account results which hadn't even occured yet. Quite pathetic when you think about it, right? I think you misinterpreted what I'm trying to say, the data for Demus is HUGE he has tens of hours on stream that you can watch, which is probably what you're basing your assumption on (That his the best player). Since we have such small amounts of information of every other player, you can't just make such a biased assumption without watching other players (Such as Lucifron). Therefore, results is the only thing you can rely on, and since people like Lucifron, Snute, TLO, Steph are consistently beating top Koreans and making it deep in tournament compared to Demuslims minuscule results. It's fair to say they're the best foreigners and anything else is just opinion. I don't really understand the bit about Snute, but I have thought for a while he was the best foreigner, and now his results are backing it up. Unlike Demusilms. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On June 24 2013 01:57 Benzzro wrote: I think you misinterpreted what I'm trying to say, the data for Demus is HUGE he has tens of hours on stream that you can watch, which is probably what you're basing your assumption on (That his the best player). Since we have such small amounts of information of every other player, you can't just make such a biased assumption without watching other players (Such as Lucifron). Therefore, results is the only thing you can rely on, and since people like Lucifron, Snute, TLO, Steph are consistently beating top Koreans and making it deep in tournament compared to Demuslims minuscule results. It's fair to say they're the best foreigners and anything else is just opinion. I don't really understand the bit about Snute, but I have thought for a while he was the best foreigner, and now his results are backing it up. Unlike Demusilms. Well I just disagree. I think you can. But its just really really difficult. I have watched a lot of all of the top terran plays, but as watching the FPV makes it easier to asses the players strenght and weakness's I feel much more certain about Demu's rankings than Lucifrons rankings for instance. But that doesn't imply that it is absolutely impossible to get a pretty good sense of Lucifronts skillset over the course of 30 games. It just makes the rankings less certain, and that is also why I don't state "xx is definitely" the best. Rather I am open for discussion, but please do it in a more respectful tone. I think before I claimed that Demuslim was probably the best foreigner, I had Snute/lucifron/Major as the closest candidates. Since Snute has shown really good results, it (admittely) seems likely that he is the new favoruite for being the best foreigner over Demuslim. But just because Demuslim hasn't had the chance yet to post good results, simply doesn't imply that he isn't the potential best foreigner. You need to stop insulting me just because I think it could be a possibility - Instead please take the approach that you just don't know, but that it seems less likely than Snute/TLO/Stephano etc. being the better player. But I really want to move this discusison away from best foreigner to best terran play (if anyone wants to discuss in a respect manner) as I can't really compare the skills cross-races. | ||
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will216
United States185 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:57 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: back to the ROOTsROOT? EG_Major | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Nice to see that Starcraft isn't such an easy game to grasp and evaluate after all. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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goCOCA
Korea (South)3 Posts
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glzElectromaster
Japan2474 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:13 StarVe wrote: They better not cut Pigbaby. He's doing well in PL and in WCS, so I'd be surprised if they cut him. | ||
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On June 24 2013 03:55 ZenithM wrote: Haha, some people think Demuslim and Major have the same macro as Innovation and Flash? Nice to see that Starcraft isn't such an easy game to grasp and evaluate after all. I know, it is funny that some people even remotely think they are even close. I like Demuslim and all but come on dude, watch his stream and look at his supply at certain points in the game compared to the likes of innovation and Flash when the games are relatively standard. This is like saying Select has top control and multitasking rivaling Flash and Innovation. Sure he has similar apm, but when the person switches screens less than 1/3rd as often, do you really think he is even remotely close to them? | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
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Orangered
289 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On June 30 2013 07:19 Benzzro wrote: Guiz...Demuslim best foreigner right, struggling against Sasquatch and losing to world class player Suppy. Sorry, I had too. Life lost to Sjow. And Suppy is really fucking good, and one of Demuslim's teammates. | ||
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
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Benzzro
Australia167 Posts
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rshawer
178 Posts
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