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On June 23 2013 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:
Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything.
Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds;
1) Huge variance (not enough data).
2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS.
Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong. Based on these results the "there is no way he is not the best foreigner" followed by the "bad result" arugment makes absolutely zero logical sense.
But be aware that I am not actually saying "this guys looks the best to me". I am analyzing various qualities of his skills. We can go into a more detailed discussion and comparisons if you want to.
Secondly, ladder is another form of results as well. Demuslim is by far the best NA player in terms of ladder results, though obv. I haven't used that argument yet as it is easier than EU ladder (and obv. ladder isn't everything).
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On June 23 2013 20:08 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:
Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything. Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds; 1) Huge variance (not enough data). 2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS. Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong.
I don't think that anybody's saying that it's impossible that he'll BECOME the best foreigner, but it makes no sense to say that he IS the best foreigner right now. Even if it is the case that you're great at analysing people's play and you've looked at every top foreigner in depth and decided that Demuslim is the most skilled, it still doesn't mean that he's the best right now given how few real games he's played in HotS. Playing on ladder just isn't the same as playing in a tournament, and you need to show results before you can be considered amongst the best.
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On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results).
After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh.
Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already.
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On June 23 2013 20:14 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:08 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:
Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything. Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds; 1) Huge variance (not enough data). 2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS. Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong. I don't think that anybody's saying that it's impossible that he'll BECOME the best foreigner, but it makes no sense to say that he IS the best foreigner right now. Even if it is the case that you're great at analysing people's play and you've looked at every top foreigner in depth and decided that Demuslim is the most skilled, it still doesn't mean that he's the best right now given how few real games he's played in HotS. Playing on ladder just isn't the same as playing in a tournament, and you need to show results before you can be considered amongst the best.
I don't think he will be the best foreigner 12 months from now on. Right now he is just relying on extremely clean mechanics, but I think he isn't analytical/smart enough to stay there long-term (like Flash/MVP/Stephano has done).
But when that is said, I don't really disagree with you. I just looked at some terran playyers play, and based of those observations it seemed probable to me that Demuslim was the best terran player. But the problem with your logic is that I don't think it ever seems to make sense to say someone is the best because there can always be unknown/unobserved variables which one has not taking into account. As I see it, we have limited information and based on that information we can name which player we believe is the best currently.
Regarding the last comment: i just knew that sentence would come (Which is why I haven't even mentioned yet that Demuslim went like 14-1 on the ladder against Stephano). But please reread my post - I actually stated that ladder isn't everything as it doesn't really take into account how do set well thought up build orders/strategies to beat your opponent. But in terms of being a great indicator of extremely solid mechanics and ingame decision making it really does a fantastic job of that.
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On June 23 2013 20:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:14 GolemMadness wrote:On June 23 2013 20:08 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:05 GolemMadness wrote:
Saying "This guy looks the best to me" not only is a pointless argument, but often doesn't translate to actual results. How many times have we heard how great certain players are in practice, only to have them come out in Proleague and just lose over and over? In order for someone to be considered one of the top foreigners, they need to first prove that they're one of the top foreigners in tournament play. Otherwise it just doesn't mean anything. Again, if you read my posts: Current skillset --> Best predictor of future results over the next couple of months. So I do acknowledge the correlation. However, the problem is with relying on historial results are twofolds; 1) Huge variance (not enough data). 2) Terran UP in WOL relative to HOTS. Demuslim has actually performed really well in HOTS so far, only narrowly losing to Golden and Revival 1-2, but 2-0'ing both TheStc and Jaedong. I don't think that anybody's saying that it's impossible that he'll BECOME the best foreigner, but it makes no sense to say that he IS the best foreigner right now. Even if it is the case that you're great at analysing people's play and you've looked at every top foreigner in depth and decided that Demuslim is the most skilled, it still doesn't mean that he's the best right now given how few real games he's played in HotS. Playing on ladder just isn't the same as playing in a tournament, and you need to show results before you can be considered amongst the best. I don't think he will be the best foreigner 12 months from now on. Right now he is just relying on extremely clean mechanics, but I think he isn't analytical/smart enough to stay there long-term (like Flash/MVP/Stephano has done). But when that is said, I don't really disagree with you. I just looked at some terran playyers play, and based of those observations it seemed probable to me that Demuslim was the best terran player. But the problem with your logic is that I don't think it ever seems to make sense to say someone is the best because there can always be unknown/unobserved variables which one has not taking into account. As I see it, we have limited information and based on that information we can name which player we believe is the best currently. Regarding the last comment: i just knew that sentence would come (Which is why I haven't even mentioned yet that Demuslim went like 14-1 on the ladder against Stephano). But please reread my post - I actually stated that ladder isn't everything as it doesn't really take into account how do set well thought up build orders/strategies to beat your opponent. But in terms of being a great indicator of extremely solid mechanics and ingame decision making it really does a fantastic job of that.
The more games people play, the better you can determine who's the best. In Brood War, when Flash was making every finals and just beating everyone, you could clearly say that he was the best. He had the championships, the stats, the games, etc, to back it up. In late 2009, right before he went on his huge run, he was playing just as well. However, you couldn't clearly say that he was the best because that's ALL you had to go on. You need a combination of things to say that someone's really the best.
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On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already.
Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his;
- Unit control
- Macro
- Multitasking
- Ingamedecisionmaking
- Strategies/build orders
I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player.
Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10.
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10
Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10.
Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10.
Is there anything above you disagree with?
Since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys?
Please name and rate at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10).
I can start with Thorzain.
Unit control = 6/10
Macro = 9/10.
Multitasking = 5/10.
Ingame decision making = 8/10.
Strategies = 10/10.
As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim.
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Russian Federation18 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious?
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On June 23 2013 20:33 Pure Intention wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious?
Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high.
Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters.
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On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim.
I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately:
LucifroN
Happy
Kas
Dayshi
Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets.
If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG 
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On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG
This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar.
Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument.
Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor.
Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time.
He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies.
Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron.
Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game.
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On June 23 2013 20:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:33 Pure Intention wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious? Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters.
There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities..
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On June 23 2013 21:17 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:34 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:33 Pure Intention wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious? Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters. There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities..
Did you read what I wrote:
While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad.
or this;
or keeping ressources too high.
So my implicit assumption is that macro consist of SQ and scv macro.
I don't know what else you would take into account. Obviously queing tendencies would inflae SQ values, but I don't think neither Demuslim nor Major really ques more than Innovation/flash.
Again, I don't understand people like you: You come into this discussion with the attitude: Flash is bettrer than Demuslim = Macro must be better = Therefore I am wrong.
Why didn't you do as I asked you to, and tried to actually examine whether you could fine flaws in their macro? Should I just assume you have tried to do that, but gave up in the proces and due to being bias'ed you didn't change your mind?
I can tell you that every game I watch I closely examine the players spending and scv macro skills, and base my grading on assesment of their skills. Have you done the same thing?
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2013 20:59 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game.
Sorry if you think I was being disrespectful. I guess I just meant that we need to see some actual results from Demu before he deserves a top 10, at least in my book. Skills =/= results we all know, but ultimately results are the only thing that matters.
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On June 23 2013 21:17 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:34 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:33 Pure Intention wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious? Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters. There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities..
Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good
Also wait what? How is Flash a level behind other terrans, I mean he's top 2 Terran.
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On June 23 2013 21:28 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 21:17 Msr wrote:On June 23 2013 20:34 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:33 Pure Intention wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:
Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard).
You serious? Yes. If you disagree, then do this; Watch a vod of them playing --> Try real hard and then tell me when you notice them not producing scvs for more than a couple of seconds or keeping ressources too high. Chances are you will find that Demuslim and Major are just as good at macro as Flash and Innovation as it really isn't the macro mechanics which matters. There is more than producing scvs to macro lol... Demuslim and major have good macro, but nowhere near the top tier players. Flash is also a level behind some other terrans right now, but that should not be for too long with his abilities.. Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good Also wait what? How is Flash a level behind other terrans, I mean he's top 2 Terran.
He is still behind INnoVation then :-P
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On June 23 2013 21:28 Grovbolle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2013 20:59 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game. Sorry if you think I was being disrespectful. I guess I just meant that we need to see some actual results from Demu before he deserves a top 10, at least in my book. Skills =/= results we all know, but ultimately results are the only thing that matters.
But even in your book where I guess you make a weighted average of "actual skills" (which is based on those five categories) and tournament results, how does Happy end up above Demuslim?
The reason I found it disrepctful was the claim that he is far away from top 10 as a response to my "actual" skill assesment. Other people have argued that there is no way he is the best. All I want from people is to acknowledge there there is real possiblity that he is the best foreigner in terms of "actual skills".
But when that is said, I can follow you too some extent. I mean if there someone came into the board and claimed that they thought the popular personality Demuslim was the best player in the world, and if I hadn't watched him play quite extensively my self, I would probably also think that poster was just being bias'ed in favor of his favourite player (Demuslim). But actually, I don't really like Demuslim, as I typically prefer to relate to personalities that are more similarly to myself. Demuslim seems so unanalytical that it kinda annoys me.
But at this point I just think he is so damn underrated (and this discussion IMO prooves it) that I feel like I need to defend him.
Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good
Hehe. Actually those games (if you watch them) supported my grades pretty well as Demuslim got build-order countered every single game (it was completely ridicilous acutally).
But those games doesn't say alot about his mechanical skills. Of course it then depends a bit on how you weight the various categories, but I kinda assume that Demuslim has or will quickly improve upon the build order leaks, and therefore I weight the mechanical skills much higher than the strategical/decision making skills.
But when that is said, I think strategies/build orders will always be his largest weakness, and as other players mechanics improves, he will get relatively worse.
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On June 23 2013 21:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 21:28 Grovbolle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 23 2013 20:59 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG This isn't about I told you. Variance is too high for that too really matter. But I am willing to make a little bet (as I believe the probabilities are on my side) if the difficultieis of the groups are somewhat similar. Anyway, I don't think that your being particularly respectful. I am discussing with 2-3 other guys and then you come into the discussion and repeat the same thing as they did without any arguments.. Then I try to ask you to put up a more indepth analysis, and follow up on my arguments and you chosoe not to. I admit that it can be time-consuming, but I think it just respectful not to start up a discusison unless your willing to provide solid argument. Anyway I am gonna take a short look at your list. Lucifron I would say would probably grade pretty well (8-9) in most of the categories as he just seems very solid without any clear weakness's (haven't watched him enough though). Happy though, there is just no way he can be on that list. While I would give him a 10 in unit control and probably a 9 in multitasking, his macro is just..... Worst of any progamer probably. I probably sound arrogant for saying this, but I macro better than him. While his SQ is fine, his scv macro is just terribad. I would therefore grade him like 1/10 or 2/10 in that category. This will put his overall rating too much down for him to be a contendor. Regarding Thorzain, I think it would be nice of you to at least discuss my grades. The reason I grade him very low in unit control is that his splits are actually quite inefficient: The best way to split is put your units in such a way that they minimize baneling splash/storm damage, but at the same are capable of attacking zealots/lings. Demuslim does this extremely well, however Thorzain has a tendency to put his units way too much back so they don't shoot at the same time. He is obviously a kind of slow player which per se makes his multitasking limited; Instead he favours well thought out builds and planned up strategies which means that he tries to rely as little as possible on pure mechanical skills (which makes him completely opposite to Demuslim). Therefore I grade him highly in terms of strategies. Kas is somewhat similarly to Lucifron, solid in most categories. Despite his repuation, he actually used to have a relatively low SQ. Today its much better though. When that is said, his multitasking and micro just isn't spectarly enough, (compared to Demuslim) and therefore I would grade him 7-8 in those categories which puts him slightly behind Lucifron. Btw, if you watch all of Demuslims 4 losses (to the koreans) in HOTS you will notice one familiarity: All losses were too allinsh' timing attacks.... This at least should put up some support in order of my theory that his actual mechanics is not the explanation for his losses. You could then argue that he just wins cus he is greedy, but if you watch G1 vs golden you will notice how far behind he was in the midgame (like 130 suply to 190 supply) due to some creative harassplay by Golden. But due to fantastic micro, multitasking and macro he still ends up winning the game. Sorry if you think I was being disrespectful. I guess I just meant that we need to see some actual results from Demu before he deserves a top 10, at least in my book. Skills =/= results we all know, but ultimately results are the only thing that matters. But even in your book where I guess you make a weighted average of "actual skills" (which is based on those five categories) and tournament results, how does Happy end up above Demuslim? The reason I found it disrepctful was the claim that he is far away from top 10 as a response to my "actual" skill assesment. Other people have argued that there is no way he is the best. All I want from people is to acknowledge there there is real possiblity that he is the best foreigner in terms of "actual skills". But when that is said, I can follow you too some extent. I mean if there someone came into the board and claimed that they thought the popular personality Demuslim was the best player in the world, and if I hadn't watched him play quite extensively my self, I would probably also think that poster was just being bias'ed in favor of his favourite player (Demuslim). But actual, I don't really like Demuslim, as I typically prefer to relate to personalities that are more similarly to myself. Demuslim seems so unanalytical that it kinda annoys me. But at this point I just think he is so damn underrated (and this discussion IMO prooves it) that I feel like I need to defend him. Show nested quote +Yeah when Demuslim produce results and doesn't get like 23-0 by Byun then people can talk, otherwise it's just hype. He's good, but not that good Hehe. Actual those games (if you watch them) supported my grades pretty well as Demuslim got build-order countered every single game (it was completely ridicilous acutally).
Happy actually plays and wins a lot of tournaments, especially online.
Edit: No more derailing, to get higher in my book, Demu needs to actually have 1-2 good tournament showings.
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On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG
Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true.
If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day.
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On June 23 2013 21:56 MaxQT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:39 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Now since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. I never said top 10 Terrans, I said top 10 foreigners. I am not going to make a 5 point checklist and just weight an average, but I will say who I find to be better than Demu lately: LucifroN Happy Kas Dayshi Thorzain/Bunny/Demu are probably somewhat of equal skill with different skillsets. If Demuslim is so good, he will do a good run at MLG and I will agree with you, if not, then I guess I was right. Feel free to PM me a "I told you so" after MLG Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true. If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day.
Wrong quote
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On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name and rate at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim.
Giving a 10 to anyone just proves how ignorant you are, let alone Demus and major, what?
A 10 essentially means that they have PERFECT macro, consistently. Not even Innovation or Flash has that. Demus does have very good macro, but lacks the speed and multitasking of most of the Kespa player who are all macroing while in tense micro situations and doing this all in a split second. I can't really take you seriously after reading some of you're posts, giving away 9s and 10s so easily rofl.
Point is you said Demuslim is the best foreigner which is retarded, you posted his results which showed him beating the most mediocre Korean players, which all the top EU players could take games off, not only that, all of them have significantly improved over the last month (well atleast showed it)
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EPT
