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On June 23 2013 22:16 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:31 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 20:18 Grovbolle wrote:On June 23 2013 19:57 Hider wrote:On June 23 2013 19:50 Grovbolle wrote:
The best foreigners based on recent results and level of play are, in random order, LucifroN, TLO, Stephano, Snute as well as a few with a form that I haven't really seen enough of lately like Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa. The new up and coming good foreigners are imo Dayshi, Welmu and some of the Chinese. DeMuslim, charismatic as he is, is far from top 10 foreigner. As with Major, well we have seen him lose to flash, that's it really, nothing to judge him on. So you can judge Demuslim on results but not Major? This is Demuslims HOTS results. His aligulac ranking has also improved significantly since HOTS release. But how on earth can you say these results are "nowhere near top 10". 2013-06-22 1457 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 P US puCK 1340 HotS offline 2013-06-22 1427 DeMusliM UK T 3–0 T KR SeleCT 975 HotS offline 2013-06-21 1417 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Golden 1452 HotS offline ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger hide 2013-05-30 1409 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T KR TheStC 1654 HotS online 2013-05-28 1404 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T CN XY 1231 HotS online 2013-05-14 1408 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 T MX Maker 849 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Challenger Invite-Only Qualifier hide 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–1 Z US Moosegills 616 HotS online 2013-05-04 1391 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z US KawaiiRice 749 HotS online ▸ WCS 2013 Season 1 America Premier Qualifier hide 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 Z KR Revival 1411 HotS online 2013-04-21 1341 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 Z KR Jaedong 1519 HotS online 2013-04-21 1334 DeMusliM UK T 2–0 T NZ Tilea 908 HotS online 2013-04-20 1425 DeMusliM UK T 1–2 P KR Oz 1416 HotS online How did Innovation fare on your korean rankins a couple of months ago? I remember him being like 2% to win a gsl group (which was after he was a semi-finalist in gsl). Why not simply admit you don't have the data yet on Demuslim to make a quality determination based on his skillset instead of making this kind of post which clearly gives the wrong impression (and is clearly biased since you don't wanna compare major and demuslim based on results). After changing the underlying model, INnoVation would have had a lot high percentage chance of being likely to win said group. I am not basing my judgement on aligulac, it is my personal opinion that Demu is not near top 10. Most of the results you link I do not find that impressive, beating Jaedong and beating XY are the most impressive of them all, the rest is meh. Also, if you do want to use aligulac, then Demu is 19, around 300 points behind number 1. (In foreigners that is, with Sen possibly being a bit of an outlier, I would accept Demu as 18). Also if you want to discuss aligulac (and it's flaws) we have a thread for that already. Yes his results are solid, but data isn't big enough to really matter so it seems that we agree, a qualitative analysis is needed. Therefore I want you to follow on my quick assesment on his; - Unit control - Macro - Multitasking - Ingamedecisionmaking - Strategies/build orders I compared those criterias to Major. If I was to grade both of them from the scale 0-10 where 10 = your as good as the best in the world, and 5 = average foreign GM, 1 = average master league player. Unit control: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 8/10. Macro: Both = 10/10 (macro skillcap isn't that high and both of them are as good as anybody in that regard). Multitasking: Demuslim = 9/10. Major = 9.5/10 Ingame decision making: Major = 5/10. Demuslim = 6/10. Stratgies: Demuslim = 5/10. Major = 7/10. Is there anything above you disagree with? Since you don't believe that he isn't anywhere near top 10, and since you indirectly admit that you can't compare terran players to zerg/toss players (since we need results to do that). Which foreign terran players would obtain a better weighted average than those two guys? Please name and rate at least 5+ players (which is required since he should no nowhere near top 10). I can start with Thorzain. Unit control = 6/10 Macro = 9/10. Multitasking = 5/10. Ingame decision making = 8/10. Strategies = 10/10. As unit control/multitasking should weight significantly more than the latter 2, I think Thorzains weighted average is much below those of Major/Demuslim. Giving a 10 to anyone just proves how ignorant you are, let alone Demus and major, what? A 10 essentially means that they have PERFECT macro, consistently. Not even Innovation or Flash has that.
No it shows that you don't even read my posts. Here is a quote;
where 10 = your as good as the best in the world
So yes Flash and INnovation = 10 (lots of other terrans have such such macro where they basically get as good as as anyone else. So no this isn't at all about having perfect macro.
Demus does have very good macro, but lacks the speed and multitasking of most of the Kespa player who are all macroing while in tense micro situations and doing this all in a split second. I can't really take you seriously after reading some of you're posts, giving away 9s and 10s so easily rofl.
Watch Demuslims games. Just find one example where you believe he has bad macro while micro'ing/multitasking. I graded him 10 because I watched him a lot and his macro is just extremely solid at any possible situation (triple dropping or during big battles w/e he always have a low SQ).
In terms of multitasking, I think he is really good, but obv. not a 10. I think either an 8 or a 9 could be justified (with Flash + Innovation + Ty as the only terran 10's).
Point is you said Demuslim is the best foreigner which is retarded, you posted his results which showed him beating the most mediocre Korean players, which all the top EU players could take games off, not only that, all of them have significantly improved over the last month (well atleast showed it)
Again, if you took the time and read my posts you would realize that your missing the point entirely. The point is that you can't use the data to claim that Demuslim isn't the best player in the world. The results (since HOTS was released) are simply good enough to make it a real possiblity that he is the best foreigner (as many posters have denied). That is why I made a qualitiative analysis instead.
Are you trolling with these scores?? 9 multitasking, 10 macro, 9 unit control?? He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true.
If 10 is perfect play and 5 is average progamer he would be at 4.5, 5 at most. So you're telling me he has the SAME MACRO AS FLASH/INNOVATION? That's fucking stupid. I don't think demuslim will EVER come close to these guy's skill.. even if he trains for 3 years 10 hours a day.
And here is another one who doesn't read. I quote my self.
and 5 = average foreign GM
What is it with you guys who gets so offensive without properly reading my posts?
I also told another guy a couple of times that he should find examples where he believed Demuslims macro was more flawed than Innovation/flash, but so far he hasn't been capable of it. Do you wanna join the club of shitting on me without any arguments do back up your claim?
He would be playing in korea if these were remotely true
He would probably be the best foreign terran player which is what this discussion is about, right? And yeh the best foreign terran player is capable of beating second-level korean players as well.
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No we HAVE to use data/results to determine who's the best foreigner, if we just go by vods and his stream, we have to go through every single potential 'best player's' stream and vods, which is simply impossible, since there is such a small amount of information available, although if there was a large amount of information I don't think it would help your case, because then you'll realize Demus simply isnt that impressive (Compared to top players). Therefore we determine the best player by results.
I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production.
I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
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My first post I said Snute was a beast and IMO the best foreigner, he has 2-0'd Happy, 2-1'd Seed and now just 3-2'd Hyun in HSC, on top of that I saw him playing Korean GM and he was in the top 60 a few weeks ago, finalist for WSC NA. And you're seriously still trying to tell me Demuslim is the best, dude you are so delusional
Oh and 3-1'd Stephano
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On June 24 2013 01:21 Benzzro wrote:
No we HAVE to use data/results to determine who's the best foreigner, if we just go by vods and his stream, we have to go through every single potential 'best player's' stream and vods, which is simply impossible, since there is such a small amount of information available, although if there was a large amount of information I don't think it would help your case, because then you'll realize Demus simply isnt that impressive (Compared to top players). Therefore we determine the best player by results.
I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production.
I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
Well why can't you just admit then that you need to rely on data to determine who is the best player, and as the data size is too limited for Demuslim, you can't make a fair assesment of his skill. That is actually what you are implying here.
Secondly, we only need to make this analysis for those who are relevant. Like Demuslim, Major, Lucifron etc., top korean terrans (for comparison). You are saying this is impossible and that I don't know what I am talking about (which is weird that you can do this when you haven't read my posts - maybe if you did you would change your mind), but I have too a large extent actually done what you believe is impossible. And my conclusion is that Demuslim is probably the best. Is it possible that I am wrong and that I haven't assed all of the candidates correctly?
Sure, of course it is. But you can't say that I am trolling/retarded/ignorant/stupid/don't know what I am talking about untill you have put up some arguments for why you believe some of the candidates should receive better grades than Demuslim.
Either do the above, or just admit you don't know how Demuslim compares to these guys (which I think probably is the truth).
My first post I said Snute was a beast and IMO the best foreigner, he has 2-0'd Happy, 2-1'd Seed and now just 3-2'd Hyun in HSC, on top of that I saw him playing Korean GM and he was in the top 60 a few weeks ago, finalist for WSC NA. And you're seriously still trying to tell me Demuslim is the best, dude you are so delusional
I definitely hold Demuslim as a favourite vs Snute as tvz is his best matchup (as long as it goes to the macro stage Demuslim can beat any zerg in the world). But Snute might be a better player overall (in all 3 matchups). Tough to say.
Besides you can't make these type of backwards argument. Like you said Snute might be the best before those results had occured and you admitted you only relied on historical data. Then you can't use future results to admit you were back then (since only historical results matter).
You could instead argue that the larger data size has reduced the uncertain variables, and increases the support of your theory of Snute being the best foreigner.
The difference between that way of arguing and the approach you took was that you criticized my previous posts of not taking into account results which hadn't even occured yet.
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I forgot which thread I was in because I went straight to the last page...
Good luck to MajOr, wherever he goes. Hopefully his time in Korea paid off.
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On June 24 2013 01:36 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 01:21 Benzzro wrote:
No we HAVE to use data/results to determine who's the best foreigner, if we just go by vods and his stream, we have to go through every single potential 'best player's' stream and vods, which is simply impossible, since there is such a small amount of information available, although if there was a large amount of information I don't think it would help your case, because then you'll realize Demus simply isnt that impressive (Compared to top players). Therefore we determine the best player by results.
I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production.
I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry. Well why can't you just admit then that you need to rely on data to determine who is the best player, and as the data size is too limited for Demuslim, you can't make a fair assesment of his skill. That is actually what you are implying here. Secondly, we only need to make this analysis for those who are relevant. Like Demuslim, Major, Lucifron etc., top korean terrans (for comparison). You are saying this is impossible and that I don't know what I am talking about (which is weird that you can do this when you haven't read my posts - maybe if you did you would change your mind), but I have too a large extent actually done what you believe is impossible. And my conclusion is that Demuslim is probably the best. Is it possible that I am wrong and that I haven't assed all of the candidates correctly? Sure, of course it is. But you can't say that I am trolling/retarded/ignorant/stupid/don't know what I am talking about untill you have put up some arguments for why you believe some of the candidates should receive better grades than Demuslim. Either do the above, or just admit you don't know how Demuslim compares to these guys (which I think probably is the truth). Show nested quote +
My first post I said Snute was a beast and IMO the best foreigner, he has 2-0'd Happy, 2-1'd Seed and now just 3-2'd Hyun in HSC, on top of that I saw him playing Korean GM and he was in the top 60 a few weeks ago, finalist for WSC NA. And you're seriously still trying to tell me Demuslim is the best, dude you are so delusional
I definitely hold Demuslim as a favourite vs Snute as tvz is his best matchup (as long as it goes to the macro stage Demuslim can beat any zerg in the world). But Snute might be a better player overall (in all 3 matchups). Tough to say. Besides you can't make these type of backwards argument. Like you said Snute might be the best before those results had occured and you admitted you only relied on historical data. Then you can't use future results to admit you were back then (since only historical results matter). You could instead argue that the data size has reduced the uncertain variables, and increases the support of your theory of Snute being the best foreigner. The difference between that way of arguing and the approach you took was that you criticized my previous posts of not taking into account results which hadn't even occured yet. Quite pathetic when you think about it, right?
I think you misinterpreted what I'm trying to say, the data for Demus is HUGE he has tens of hours on stream that you can watch, which is probably what you're basing your assumption on (That his the best player). Since we have such small amounts of information of every other player, you can't just make such a biased assumption without watching other players (Such as Lucifron). Therefore, results is the only thing you can rely on, and since people like Lucifron, Snute, TLO, Steph are consistently beating top Koreans and making it deep in tournament compared to Demuslims minuscule results. It's fair to say they're the best foreigners and anything else is just opinion.
I don't really understand the bit about Snute, but I have thought for a while he was the best foreigner, and now his results are backing it up. Unlike Demusilms.
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On June 24 2013 01:57 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 01:36 Hider wrote:On June 24 2013 01:21 Benzzro wrote:
No we HAVE to use data/results to determine who's the best foreigner, if we just go by vods and his stream, we have to go through every single potential 'best player's' stream and vods, which is simply impossible, since there is such a small amount of information available, although if there was a large amount of information I don't think it would help your case, because then you'll realize Demus simply isnt that impressive (Compared to top players). Therefore we determine the best player by results.
I'm not going to go through Demuslims vods just to prove you wrong since your argument is completely insane, although funny you mention Demuslims macro since just 2-3 weeks ago I remember his mentioning him not making constant SCV production.
I also think most people aren't reading everything you're saying because you don't know what you're talking about, sorry. Well why can't you just admit then that you need to rely on data to determine who is the best player, and as the data size is too limited for Demuslim, you can't make a fair assesment of his skill. That is actually what you are implying here. Secondly, we only need to make this analysis for those who are relevant. Like Demuslim, Major, Lucifron etc., top korean terrans (for comparison). You are saying this is impossible and that I don't know what I am talking about (which is weird that you can do this when you haven't read my posts - maybe if you did you would change your mind), but I have too a large extent actually done what you believe is impossible. And my conclusion is that Demuslim is probably the best. Is it possible that I am wrong and that I haven't assed all of the candidates correctly? Sure, of course it is. But you can't say that I am trolling/retarded/ignorant/stupid/don't know what I am talking about untill you have put up some arguments for why you believe some of the candidates should receive better grades than Demuslim. Either do the above, or just admit you don't know how Demuslim compares to these guys (which I think probably is the truth).
My first post I said Snute was a beast and IMO the best foreigner, he has 2-0'd Happy, 2-1'd Seed and now just 3-2'd Hyun in HSC, on top of that I saw him playing Korean GM and he was in the top 60 a few weeks ago, finalist for WSC NA. And you're seriously still trying to tell me Demuslim is the best, dude you are so delusional
I definitely hold Demuslim as a favourite vs Snute as tvz is his best matchup (as long as it goes to the macro stage Demuslim can beat any zerg in the world). But Snute might be a better player overall (in all 3 matchups). Tough to say. Besides you can't make these type of backwards argument. Like you said Snute might be the best before those results had occured and you admitted you only relied on historical data. Then you can't use future results to admit you were back then (since only historical results matter). You could instead argue that the data size has reduced the uncertain variables, and increases the support of your theory of Snute being the best foreigner. The difference between that way of arguing and the approach you took was that you criticized my previous posts of not taking into account results which hadn't even occured yet. Quite pathetic when you think about it, right? I think you misinterpreted what I'm trying to say, the data for Demus is HUGE he has tens of hours on stream that you can watch, which is probably what you're basing your assumption on (That his the best player). Since we have such small amounts of information of every other player, you can't just make such a biased assumption without watching other players (Such as Lucifron). Therefore, results is the only thing you can rely on, and since people like Lucifron, Snute, TLO, Steph are consistently beating top Koreans and making it deep in tournament compared to Demuslims minuscule results. It's fair to say they're the best foreigners and anything else is just opinion. I don't really understand the bit about Snute, but I have thought for a while he was the best foreigner, and now his results are backing it up. Unlike Demusilms.
Well I just disagree. I think you can. But its just really really difficult. I have watched a lot of all of the top terran plays, but as watching the FPV makes it easier to asses the players strenght and weakness's I feel much more certain about Demu's rankings than Lucifrons rankings for instance. But that doesn't imply that it is absolutely impossible to get a pretty good sense of Lucifronts skillset over the course of 30 games. It just makes the rankings less certain, and that is also why I don't state "xx is definitely" the best. Rather I am open for discussion, but please do it in a more respectful tone.
I think before I claimed that Demuslim was probably the best foreigner, I had Snute/lucifron/Major as the closest candidates. Since Snute has shown really good results, it (admittely) seems likely that he is the new favoruite for being the best foreigner over Demuslim. But just because Demuslim hasn't had the chance yet to post good results, simply doesn't imply that he isn't the potential best foreigner. You need to stop insulting me just because I think it could be a possibility - Instead please take the approach that you just don't know, but that it seems less likely than Snute/TLO/Stephano etc. being the better player.
But I really want to move this discusison away from best foreigner to best terran play (if anyone wants to discuss in a respect manner) as I can't really compare the skills cross-races.
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On June 17 2013 23:57 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: back to the ROOTs
ROOT? EG_Major
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TLADT24920 Posts
Not sure how there is even a discussion about demuslim being top 5 or top 10. I would rank Lucifron, Snute, TLO, Naniwa, Stephano easily above him based on their results. As for major, well, the loss to Flash last night doesn't tell us his skill level, just that he couldn't win against Flash(no surprise lol). Having said that, I would still rank the former players I mentioned above him until we see more results(although he was out of WCS premier league(or w/e it was called)).
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Haha, some people think Demuslim and Major have the same macro as Innovation and Flash?
Nice to see that Starcraft isn't such an easy game to grasp and evaluate after all.
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I think after Idra´s release, EG has no great interest to have controversial players represent them.
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Korea (South)3 Posts
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On June 18 2013 00:13 StarVe wrote:
They better not cut Pigbaby.
He's doing well in PL and in WCS, so I'd be surprised if they cut him.
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On June 24 2013 03:55 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, some people think Demuslim and Major have the same macro as Innovation and Flash?
Nice to see that Starcraft isn't such an easy game to grasp and evaluate after all.
I know, it is funny that some people even remotely think they are even close. I like Demuslim and all but come on dude, watch his stream and look at his supply at certain points in the game compared to the likes of innovation and Flash when the games are relatively standard.
This is like saying Select has top control and multitasking rivaling Flash and Innovation. Sure he has similar apm, but when the person switches screens less than 1/3rd as often, do you really think he is even remotely close to them?
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Guiz...Demuslim best foreigner right, struggling against Sasquatch and losing to world class player Suppy. Sorry, I had too.
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On June 30 2013 07:19 Benzzro wrote:
Guiz...Demuslim best foreigner right, struggling against Sasquatch and losing to world class player Suppy. Sorry, I had too.
Life lost to Sjow. And Suppy is really fucking good, and one of Demuslim's teammates.
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Life is in a slump and has lost his last few GSTL matches, OSL matches and also lost to TLO (Which is no shame since TLO is playing beastly). Suppy is not 'really fucking good', he's good but not even close to be considered one of the best foreigners. My post was not really meant to be serious, I know 1 tournament doesn't mean too much. But still look at naniwa constantly making deep runs in tournament, yet Demuslim fails to make it deep in a tournament once again. Just taking a stab at Hider's stupidity.
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Wow he just lost to theognis, heard he is Korean so it doesn't count.
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ATM, Demuslim is far off from korean tier
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EPT
