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Call to Action: June 14 Balance Testing - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
625 CommentsPost a Reply
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Scrandom
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2819 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:35:30
June 14 2013 20:34 GMT
#141
Nevermind I'm dumb.
RemrafGrez
Profile Joined November 2010
United States180 Posts
June 14 2013 20:35 GMT
#142
On June 15 2013 04:01 Salient wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 03:59 Hypemeup wrote:
On June 15 2013 03:58 Zenbrez wrote:
Banshee openings are going to be tough for protoss again I think


Protoss has gotten additional detection, they will be fine.


You mean the 150/150 Oracle that comes out of an otherwise useless stargate and can be shut down by a single turret? LOL. It's so much better to invest that gas in a robo facility that can give you both detection and splash damage, which you absolutely need to survive against MMM.


I recently tried going 3 hidden oracles into one full on attack, to see if I could kill the likely turret that would be there at the T's base. It was there. I was attacking it for what seemed like forever before the guy noticed... the turret was in the red before he started repairing. Instantly it shot up from a few red hitpoints to half health and one oracle died before I could pull out. Oracles are junk. Any real pro is not going to go Oracles except when they are in the mood for a coinflip because they don't like a map. Way too luck based right now.

600/600 worth of air investment is shut down by 100 minerals at the Terran's base. Brother, Terran just has air defense covered in such a big way it's pretty much broken from the point of view of P.

To chime in on the Banshee, I played another game where I was T vs a Z, and had the guy crippled early via a few hellbat drops. He was at half my workers, so I just casually built up to a max bio + mine + hellbat army with 3/3 bio. I knew he'd be back in the game, but I was always 1 or two bases ahead, so I figured he'd never have a chance. A few bad engagements later, it turned into a base race once his Ultras were out. Finally it came down to my last base -he didn't know about- against his ground army plus a few mutas. I pumped out 3 banshees and a handfull of marines along with left over medivacs and won the game.

It proved to me Banshees still have a place in TvZ, I don't know what the fuss is about. Point being, Banshees are great air to ground damage. Marines are once against the most versatile unit in the game. What an awesome combo?!
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:35:59
June 14 2013 20:35 GMT
#143
On June 15 2013 05:34 Scrandom wrote:

Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
June 14 2013 20:35 GMT
#144
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote:
PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.

Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?


Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.
hundred thousand krouner
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
June 14 2013 20:36 GMT
#145
hope these changes go through, me likes :3
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
saltis
Profile Joined September 2012
159 Posts
June 14 2013 20:36 GMT
#146
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote:
The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs.
That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems.
If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs.
They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.

As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?


Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:40:03
June 14 2013 20:38 GMT
#147
lolol tvt is going back to 2010. banshees still wont be problem for toss, it never were. all tosses in hots (that arent hipster nerds) go robo or stargate right after nexus, which gives them detection in time. in wol they used to +2 gate first thats why cloak was slightly relevant there.

i guess hellbat and warp prism changes are nice maybe. not terrible ideas from blizzard which is nice

im still waiting for my turret buff tho (less dmg less cost)
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
June 14 2013 20:38 GMT
#148
On June 15 2013 05:35 Zheryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote:
PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.

Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?


Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.


Agreed. The added bonus that Helbats do vs Light baseline doesn't affect Helbat Bio/Timings. It does however make small numbers of Helbats (like 2) far less effective vs packs of workers.

It's a good change with a bonus of perhaps giving Terrans a reason to research Blue Flame again which Helbat drops have made an obsolete tech route. (they did the same thing to banshees too)
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Hitch-22
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
Canada753 Posts
June 14 2013 20:39 GMT
#149
On June 15 2013 05:30 Gescom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.

That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?


Fusion Core
"We all let our sword do the talking for us once in awhile I guess" - Bregor, the legendary critical striker and critical misser who triple crits 2 horses with 1 arrow but lands 3 1's in a row
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 14 2013 20:39 GMT
#150
On June 15 2013 05:36 saltis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote:
The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs.
That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems.
If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs.
They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.

As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?


Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore

Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:42:45
June 14 2013 20:41 GMT
#151
On June 15 2013 05:35 Zheryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 03:45 Snowbear wrote:
PLEASE Blizzard! Hellbat DROPS are the problem >>> nerf damage. People who mix in hellbats instead of mines (TvZ) in their army, get nerfed. The drops will still happen, but hellbat instead of mines in your army is dead as hell. I can't believe this . This is just a nerf to hellbat in army, not hellbat drops imo.

Cloack: this makes tvt a bigger coinflip. Is that good?


Doesn't really affect TvZ that much since hellbats still 2-shot lings. Hellbats in army will be only a tiny beat weaker in TvZ.


well, it will affect it a little, as not each zergling just gets exclusively 2shot by hellbats, but like 1shot from a hellbat+1shot from a marine right now a lot of the time. Also against hydras and locusts in Mech vs Zerg. But it basically just means: IF YOU WANT TO EXTENSIVELY USE HELLBATS (INSTEAD OF WIDOW MINES), GET THAT FUCKING 150/150 UPGRADE (LIKE YOU GET THAT 150/150 UPGRADE FOR WIDOW MINES).
It's really not that gamebreaking to go for one of the factory techlab upgrades if you use those units a lot. So in macrogames, your army should be basically same strength, but early hellbat drops and allins will be nerfed. (TLO will rejoice)
Holdenintherye
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada1441 Posts
June 14 2013 20:41 GMT
#152
I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable???
Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo?
I'm confused.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
June 14 2013 20:41 GMT
#153
On June 15 2013 05:39 Hitch-22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:30 Gescom wrote:
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.

That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?


Fusion Core


lol.

So going for a cloaked banshee timing would require building an additional structure that costs 150 gas just to research an upgrade that costs 200 gas all for the benefit that now Ghosts that you may or may not have wanted to build have cloaking at baseline?

I like Blizzard's idea more.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
June 14 2013 20:44 GMT
#154
On June 15 2013 05:39 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:36 saltis wrote:
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote:
The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs.
That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems.
If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs.
They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.

As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?


Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore

Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.


Cloaked Banshees can still be effective even with Spore Crawlers around, but with such a huge cost of investment its very hard to justify going for them as opposed to other builds in the current meta. (Did a GM cast not that far back where the Terran always opened for them and it worked very well)

With a reduced cost more Terrans might be willing to take that risk and with 100 extra gas to work with it makes the build far easier to transition out of.

aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 14 2013 20:45 GMT
#155
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote:
I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable???
Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo?
I'm confused.

Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
June 14 2013 20:48 GMT
#156
On June 15 2013 05:45 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:41 Holdenintherye wrote:
I thought Blizzard added Oracles and Tempests to try to make stargate tech viable???
Then they buff banshees which will force protoss to open robo?
I'm confused.

Protip: Oracle detect, outrun, and destroy banshees. 2 oracles or 1 oracle + 1 phoenix is all it takes to shutdown banshees HARD.

Oracles can't attack air, so I don't see the point of 2 Oracles. About the Oracle and Phoenix, I agree.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 14 2013 20:48 GMT
#157
On June 15 2013 05:44 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:39 ZenithM wrote:
On June 15 2013 05:36 saltis wrote:
On June 15 2013 05:33 TC_Beynbio wrote:
The Banshee buff is going to be a problem for maybe Zerg and Toss players but mostly zergs.
That means faster banshees timings. It's like they made 1-1-1 build even faster. If that is added, many will have big problems.
If Zerg doesn't make a evo-chamber in time, it's bye bye to your drones. Same situation for toss, but they have obs.
They might also be added in a later push if the harass doesn't work much.

As a Toss player, i'm very glad that they are trying to buff the Warp Prism. It's a very slow transport unit in general (without the upgrade). Maybe the Warp Prism can be used more frequently?


Do you even play Zerg ? SPOILER ALERT: Spore doesn't need evolution chamber anymore

Yeah cloaked stuff doesn't work vs Zerg, so might as well buff cloak banshees if it doesn't really bother the other 2 races.


Cloaked Banshees can still be effective even with Spore Crawlers around, but with such a huge cost of investment its very hard to justify going for them as opposed to other builds in the current meta. (Did a GM cast not that far back where the Terran always opened for them and it worked very well)

With a reduced cost more Terrans might be willing to take that risk and with 100 extra gas to work with it makes the build far easier to transition out of.


theognis says his standard TvZ opening right now is hellion/banshee, because it is just better than the innovation style against roach/baneling. And I saw him doing it today against nerchio and the opening did good damage and he won the game. So, I think banshees aren't superbad in TvZ right now, and that cloak buff might just be enough to make them a little more relevant again.
schmitty9800
Profile Joined August 2010
United States390 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:50:11
June 14 2013 20:49 GMT
#158
Wish people would stop saying that banshees are strong; they're viable, but not strong right now. If they were strong then they would show up in more than 1 out of 100 pro games.
Wertheron
Profile Joined October 2011
France439 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:50:46
June 14 2013 20:49 GMT
#159
On June 15 2013 05:17 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote:
I like the banshee change. It's a good unit to tweak, since it has a relatively high skill ceiling.

Plus there is a certain tension to cloaked banshees that I miss. Sure, I hated them and felt a little joy every time they died, but I still miss them. They brought the fear that they would ruin you, but that you could deal with them if you were on the ball.


Exactly what i feel, and i'm zerg. Banshee can kill or ruin you, if you didn't see it or didn't prepare for it, but you can defend, and it's your fault if you loose. You can see hellbat and prepare for it, you still in a bad situation :D
Hitch-22
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
Canada753 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-14 20:51:37
June 14 2013 20:51 GMT
#160
On June 15 2013 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2013 05:39 Hitch-22 wrote:
On June 15 2013 05:30 Gescom wrote:
On June 15 2013 03:49 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
if you want to promote banshees without going for such a drastic change, just merge banshee and ghost cloak. It will promote both without breaking the meta.

That's actually an insanely good suggestion, but where would the upgrade be?


Fusion Core


lol.

So going for a cloaked banshee timing would require building an additional structure that costs 150 gas just to research an upgrade that costs 200 gas all for the benefit that now Ghosts that you may or may not have wanted to build have cloaking at baseline?

I like Blizzard's idea more.

I can't tell if you understood I was joking or not... I think you didn't and for that "pulls off glove" you get a Vincent Longborn slap.

/rolld20
19

GGnore
"We all let our sword do the talking for us once in awhile I guess" - Bregor, the legendary critical striker and critical misser who triple crits 2 horses with 1 arrow but lands 3 1's in a row
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