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On June 11 2013 07:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think that this is a very difficult situation and i dont approve of the way you want to get dem pitchforks rolling.
Especially because some things arent correct. Vipro is on complexity now so you are left with LoLvsxD and Socke.
You need at least 4 people to compete. You didnt sign anybody new so you can not compete. Having 2 additional "jokers" with Thorzain and Sortof is clearly against the rule and unfair to the other teams. Thats a pretty bad proposal.
What I get from the statement, is that the 3 players (Vipro included) tried till the end, and after the failed to stay in the league he left the team. I'm pretty sure they had this base covered if they were allowed to compete.
The seesaw with the admins was just because they really tried to find a solution that would keep everyone happy and really wanted to keep you in the league. I cant imagine its because they wanted to fuck you over.
It's not the job of the admins to make everyone happy but to apply the rules and agree on a solution so that situations like this don't happen. Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, No, NO. This is unacceptable in such a high level competition.
If you had just presented 2 new players to the karont3 roster asap, im very sure you could have stayed in the league. But you failed to propose a good solution in time. This state of confusion is also your fault because you were massively contributing to it by already announcing the disbanding of karont3.
So please dont put the blame on the admins that there is confusion.
If you want to go with the cheapest solution possible all the time and just refuse to do the obvious, which is sign 2 new players, then at some point i would be done with it too and say no its not possible anymore.
Its not a situation anybody would've expected and apparently nobody was prepared for that. So ofc theres gonna be confusion.
If I haven't misread it, after they were told the 2 new players solution was OK (never forget this part please), they were told that suddenly it was not enough, and they tried:
- Change the 2 new players for others not in an actual league team
- Play with the coach as the fourth player (nothing wrong in my eyes, Cella anyone?)
- Play with 3 players (they showed they can beat top level players with them)
If the only solution allowed is re-signing Vortix and Lucifron and rebuilding K3 so that the admins are happy with the publicity, then they should have stated it more clearly.
For some reason, it looks like everyone is so happy that K3 is kicked out, even if they outperformed richer/deeper teams, so don't expect viewers to align with them.
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While it sux they were kicked, i can see why. Allowing more than 1 joker is against the rules. It seems like the admin team tried their hardest to work with the former k3 guys to keep them in without breaching the rules. I think the former k3 guys really need to look at the big picture of things rather than from just their standpoint. They'd probably be less salty about the situation.
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I understand not letting thm het players from other teams but i dnt no y thy cudnt sign free agents
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Damn, this is some bullshit.
I understand that some teams would be nervous of facing Thorzain and SortOf, but I don't think those two are really any better than the original Karont3 line-up.
Really sorry that this didn't work out and the flip-flopping is inexcusable.
EDIT: Will also likely stop watching this tourney now, though I love that Nathanias is casting it and it's been great fun so far.
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This all seems like such BS. If I were an opposing team, I wouldn't want my players having to play against Thorzain or SortOf either. But why would anyone have any problem with Ryo playing? He's done it before; it's not like he's some random guy in gold league.
I don't think it's really about quality of games, either. ROOT is 1-8 in the league with a -22 map score. Are they gonna get kicked out too?
And if this was going to be the decision, why let the Karont3 vs. Acer game go on?
I would really like to see a statement from TaKe or somebody, because it seemed like the ex-K3 guys were still excited about playing and very little about this decision makes sense to me.
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The worst thing that could happen to a league is to have a team drop out. Any other solution would have been better for the viewers and for the league itself.
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Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear
pathetic show from all admins involved, except perhaps TaKe himself, but it reflects INCREDIBLY POORLY on the organization and event!
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Hmm, never thought TaKe would be on the receiving end of pitchforks...
You'd think people would finally learn to withhold judgment before both sides have released a statement on a dispute....Alas
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I'm sure I skipped over something but I don't see a problem with refusal to allow players on existing teams to join them. Allowing that would just undermine the integrity of the tournament. Free agents should be fine as long as it is within the rules of the team league for dropping/adding players.
At the very least if it is winners league style and you can compete with your disadvantaged roster (lacking players) I don't see a reason for the team to be 'removed'. The players have invested a lot of time commitment and schedule altering to be able to participate, to brush that aside because of some unfortunate circumstances is a pretty brash decision.
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lol this actually sounds like teams being embarrassed about getting stomped by a "fake" team.
Too bad for everyone involved though. GL to the players in the future. Hope the tournament gets its shit together because from this it sounds pretty unprofessional.
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On June 11 2013 11:36 leova wrote:
Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear
Why can you not see, that this is not as black and white as you make it?
Again, facts:
First, Karont3 disbanded (gives up it's entry)!
Then 3 former players want to take the old position with a new quickly build team (new name, plus some new players).
But this in itself becomes a general problem!
Because is it enough to have 3 former players to claim to be a successor of a closed team?
Ultimately, what makes a team? Is it the management, the players, the sponsors or the name? I could for example argue that player are not even the essential part, because a team can replace all it's players during the season and still compete, right?
Also, what would have happened if Lucifron and Vortix had formed a separate new team? Who gets the spot then? Are both teams suddenly the official successor? This is not clear cut at all.
So, please think it through, before you accuse others of favoritism.
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On June 11 2013 12:21 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 11:36 leova wrote:
Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear Why can you not see, that this is not as black and white as you make it? Again, facts: First, Karont3 disbanded (gives up it's entry)! Then 3 former players want to take the old position with a new quickly build team (new name, plus some new players). But this in itself becomes a general problem! Because is it enough to have 3 former players to claim to be a successor of a closed team? Ultimately, what makes a team? Is it the management, the players, the sponsors or the name? I could for example argue that player are not even the essential part, because a team can replace all it's players during the season and still compete, right? Also, what would have happened if Lucifron and Vortix had formed a separate new team? Who gets the spot then? Are both teams suddenly the official successor? This is not clear cut at all. So, please think it through, before you accuse others of favoritism.
Kicking out a team from a league, should be the last resort. If the alternative to allowing them to play crippled, or under no sponsor or whatever, is to have a bunch of "byes", clearly you don't care about your viewers, just the teams that are benefiting from the decision.
Allowing them to acquire 2 free agents or letting the coach play is an acceptable solution, even if you think that they are not a team anymore.
The point is, 1st think should be viewers, and in this case it wasn't. Viewers want games, they want good games, and they don't care how you call the team or if other teams are not happy with the situation. And admins failed to do this.
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On June 11 2013 11:41 Bagration wrote:
Hmm, never thought TaKe would be on the receiving end of pitchforks...
You'd think people would finally learn to withhold judgment before both sides have released a statement on a dispute....Alas
That's what he gets for having so much downtime in his tournaments!! ^_~
And agree with xN.07... BYE's aren't cool. There are never cool. Some are unavoidable, but ones like this can be easily fixed by just letting the already handicapped (they lost 2 of their players) "team" play. What even makes a team "official" as in, not disbanded anyway?? As the OP (I'm guessing that was the manager which got translated?) stated, there were plenty of "teams" or "clans" who were less than official compared to K3, so K3 disbanding should not even really be relevant. Ryo is a fourth player, they have four players, seems like they meet the "requirements". And even if they didn't, they should still play because if 3 people can beat 5 people, I don't give two shits whether they have a fourth. No shits given, whatsoever.
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If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not.
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I understand that they did not let K3 play with players from another team besides their joker Socke. Afterall this is a team league and K3 disbanded their sc2 division. Letting the manager play seems not a real solution either.
I would like to wait on a statement from TakeTV about the miscommunication between the admins and K3. You never know what which side understood from the communication before you hear both sides.
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On June 11 2013 17:38 Jarree wrote:
If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not.
Only sc2 section disbands, K3 exists.
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On June 11 2013 17:44 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:38 Jarree wrote:
If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not. Only sc2 section disbands, K3 exists.
The sc2 team has disbanded; however you word it, result is the same. The rest is just nitpicking.
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I agree signing Thorzain and SortOf would have been unfair to the other teams. Another problem is viPro having signed with complexity, so that at the moment Karont3 consists of LolvsXD + Socke as joker. And another problem is that Karont3 announced the closure of their SC2 team, so that they officially do not exist anymore.
However, I find that all solutions proposed by Ryu made a lot of sense,
- Signing enough free agents to make a complete roster and/or
- Adding Ryu as a coach-player and/or
- Playing with less players and giving default wins when all revives are used and the roster is exhausted
so at this point it's pretty clear there was pressure from the organization / other teams to kick them out of the league, rather than to try and find a compromise to let them stay and finish. It sucks for them.
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Would be funny if more teams dropped out and then some underdog wins it by default, would put it up there in the hall of fails right next to the time an EG member agreed to split the 1st/2nd place prize money with someone and then the finals was played off race. Go eSports!
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It is not a good situation when a team has to drop out of a League. It is less games for the viewers to watch AND it renders meaningless some games they have already watched. The Organisers need to ensure they do the utmost to ensure that all fixtures in a League are fulfilled. If this means a team has to play while weakened then so be it. Having byes just damages the integrity of the whole League.
Take has done wonders for the SC2 scene and I do not doubt his professionalism and dedication at all, however it seems that members from his organisation have been issuing contradictory communications to Karont3 about what was acceptable or not. It is an unfortunate situation.
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EPT
