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On June 09 2013 20:33 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals? but innovation is the best rts player of all time
Is he the best age of empires player? or best company of heroes player?
The whole "best rts player of all time" title is so stupid. If you are best starcraft player, it does not mean you are best player in all rts games. Hell, those sc pros dont even have time to practise other rts game to beat the best aoe players etc.
Its like saying that nuclear bomb is the best weapon of all, while in reality you cant fucking nuke everyone if you are gonna go raid some crack lab.
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On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
So many things...
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Missing one finals =/= not the best of all time. Michael Jordan didn't go to every single finals, didn't win every single game. He is still considered by many (probably most) to be the best of all time. The best of all time does not mean dominance at one moment in time, in fact it means the exact opposite: dominance over an extended period. Flash has shown dominance over an extended period of time.
Also, let's not forget that Flash was one reaper-rush away from beating Innovation 2-0. That could have changed everything right there. But for that BO loss, we might be talking about our new GSL, WCS champion Flash.
Look at his win-ratio, his second place finish at MLG, his performance in PL, his performance in the GSL (very good if you consider his opponents)... he is definitely in a dominating position. I would argue that as of yet he hasn't put up the results to be considered the best in this game, but he is fully capable of beating any opponent, and likely to beat 99.9% of pro-gamers right now. There is a very good argument that he actually might be the best Terran in the world.
By your logic, we shouldn't call Mvp the "King of Wings" because jjakji won a GSL too.
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On June 09 2013 20:30 Daswollvieh wrote:
I hear somebody does not deserve something he legitimately played for in SC2. This is news to me.
Nope. He didn't play for a placing in Power Rank, he played for tournaments, some of which he won and many of which he didn't. Nobody is contesting that HerO deserved to win tournaments or even some particular match, since his play at the time was great.
And hey, guess what, HerO is also the prime example of a player who can win on a good day but almost always chokes massively on the biggest stage, that alone ought to be considered heavily.
But hey, it's nice to throw a strawman here and there and hope it sticks.
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On June 09 2013 20:44 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals? BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Read my previous post.
Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
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On June 09 2013 19:36 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months. "could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it. Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him. The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
This was something I didn't get about aLive vs Bogus. ALive has said many times his weakest matchup is TvZ whilst his strongest is TvT. I believe Bogus's weakest is TvT? Yet Bogus just fucking rolled him.
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France12771 Posts
I'm not the biggest (and not even a fan) fan of Mvp, (hard to be his fan if you are a MKP fan haha) but it was so damn good to see him perform this well in the WCS, almost beating Innovation in what seemed even games, after so much shit was said upon him.
A GSL champion should never be underestimated, yet alone a multiple GSL winner.
However, the Soulkey #2 spot seems to be the right one, he is not "invincible" enough to be ranked #1.
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On June 06 2013 02:02 ffadicted wrote:
Thank you for not chickening out and putting a lesser player than innovation at #1 just because he won the GSL. It's no question to anyone that ACTUALLY follows sc2 and majority of proleague and tourneys (instead of just tunning in for GSL semis/finals) that innovation is the better player.
Also surprised you guys didn't wait until the seasonal finals to write this, should be very telling. Hopefully when innovation wins that handily, people will understand
As I said lol Easy pick easy pick
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On June 09 2013 20:45 Magbane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:44 sc2superfan101 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals? BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game. Read my previous post. Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
It is a safe bet that Flash and/or Innovation would have dominated those scenes if they had played in them.
Your standard for the best of all time is ridiculous.
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On June 09 2013 20:45 Partha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:36 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months. "could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it. Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him. The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do. This was something I didn't get about aLive vs Bogus. ALive has said many times his weakest matchup is TvZ whilst his strongest is TvT. I believe Bogus's weakest is TvT? Yet Bogus just fucking rolled him.
Despite fairly weak recent showings from aLive, his TvT is 185 wins out of 314 games (59% winrate) and his highest rating is indeed in TvT. (1578 vs his overall average of 1506) Bogus' TvT is his highest winrate (a whopping 69%), but it's over far less games (37 wins out of 54) and of course less time as well. His TvT is however his lowest rating (1929 vs his overall average of 2008).
All stats pulled from aligulac. (aLive | Bogus)
If anything, it goes to show how insanely good Bogus really is.
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Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
The reason no one with normal reasoning skills would say that someone is "best rts player" or something were "best weapon", is that "rts" and "weapon" and such are general terms for wide variety of things.
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On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote:
Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
Let's focus on flash. He was not "good at one game". He was the best in one game, and is one of the best in another game. He is the second most money making pro-gamer of all time. That's not only counting RTS, but all pro-games. He had an astounding 71.74% win ratio overall in the biggest RTS game with the hardest competition in the world. His final record was 457-180. It is definitely a safe bet that he has enough RTS skill and dedication that he would dominate any RTS he played. Perhaps not be the best in every single one, but be a contender in all of them.
The best of all time doesn't mean that you are the best in every facet. It just means that you are overall, the best. If not Flash then who? There has to be a best, by definition.
edit: weapons and pro-gamers aren't really comparable... let's stick to people.
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*sight* I already addressed that argument, please try to understand. And money is ridicilous argument to begin with.
Flash is very talented person and one of the best starcraft players, but like I said, we cannot reasonably claim that he or anyone is the "best rts player". Like we cant say that one weapon is best weapon in the world.
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On June 09 2013 20:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote:
Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best. Let's focus on flash. He was not "good at one game". He was the best in one game, and is one of the best in another game. He is the second most money making pro-gamer of all time. That's not only counting RTS, but all pro-games. He had an astounding 71.74% win ratio overall in the biggest RTS game with the hardest competition in the world. His final record was 457-180. It is definitely a safe bet that he has enough RTS skill and dedication that he would dominate any RTS he played. Perhaps not be the best in every single one, but be a contender in all of them. The best of all time doesn't mean that you are the best in every facet. It just means that you are overall, the best. If not Flash then who? There has to be a best, by definition. edit: weapons and pro-gamers aren't really comparable... let's stick to people.
To further focus on Flash and compare it to something compareable:
Both Grubby and Flash are legends within their game (wc3 and BW). Yet Flash is having more success within Heart of the Swarm which is a new game for both of them and they started roughly the same time. Which would make Flash the better RTS player. (Grubby is still amazing though <3)
The best RTS players tries their luck in SC2. If you are a really talented RTS player and you believe you are one of the best, you would play sc2. Because that's where the competition is and where you would prove yourself.
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Why do you want that desperately use term "best rts player"? If we were to just say that flash or someone is "best starcraft player", it doesnt take away from their skill.
"Best rts player" just does not make sense, it is not logical thing to say. "Best" means you can replace anyone, you cant replace best aoe players with flash currently, thus he is not the best "rts player" in the world. End of discussion.
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On June 09 2013 21:01 Magbane wrote:
*sight* I already addressed that argument, please try to understand. And money is ridicilous argument to begin with.
So we can't use results, or stats, or money won.... we just go off... gut feeling?
Like I said before, your comparison from weapons to pro-gamers is ridiculous. You're past comparing apples and oranges and into apples and skyscraper territory now...
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On June 09 2013 20:34 Magbane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:33 opterown wrote:On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals? but innovation is the best rts player of all time Is he the best age of empires player? or best company of heroes player? The whole "best rts player of all time" title is so stupid. If you are best starcraft player, it does not mean you are best player in all rts games. Hell, those sc pros dont even have time to practise other rts game to beat the best aoe players etc. Its like saying that nuclear bomb is the best weapon of all, while in reality you cant fucking nuke everyone if you are gonna go raid some crack lab.
Well, all rts games are the same in a sense, they are expressions of a common idea. If you excel in one of them then you have claims to being a good rts player, not just a good starcraft player.
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The weapon analogy was good analogy, weapons are designed for different uses. There are different rts games and mastering one does not mean you master all of them.
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On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote:
Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
The reason no one with normal reasoning skills would say that someone is "best rts player" or something were "best weapon", is that "rts" and "weapon" and such are general terms for wide variety of things.
It's very easy to say that perhaps there are RTS games harder than Brood War, or with better game design than Brood War. And that may well be true. But you must not forget that professional Brood War was a massively competitive cut-throat scene where the top players lived in team-houses and ate and breathed this game for hours upon hours every day. And even then, very few of them made it to the top.
Yes, luck and other outside circumstances factored a great deal into why Brood War became so big in Korea. And yes, few other games were ever given this possibility. And yes, perhaps some would have proven themselves to be even better games eventually. But such is life, and it stands the progaming industry in Korea developed into one of the most, if not the single most cut-throat competitive gaming scene there ever was.
The foreign scene, similar to the entire scene of other RTS games in terms of scale, perhaps a bit bigger, was unbelievably outmatched at the height of the skill level's maturity, so much so that its most talented exponents got utterly crushed when pitted against Koreans.
So there's my argument for Brood War being the best RTS game. The scale of it, both as an industry and as a competition. And I have every confidence that if Kespa were ever to have switched to a different RTS game with good design and potential for skilled play, they would have eventually dominated that too, off the back of their talented players and insane training schedule.
As for FlaSh being the best RTS player of all time, I don't know. I don't know if he could beat Moon at WC3 with sufficient practice, but I do know that he showed up into the hardest competitive gaming scene as a youngster and won a Star League at the age of 15, now standing as the most talented and skilled exponent of arguably the hardest eSport. And I know that's got to count for something.
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On June 09 2013 21:05 Magbane wrote:
"Best" means you can replace anyone.
This is the problem right here: your criteria for "Best" is "Best in every single facet of every single game". That is not the actual definition, nor is it most other people's criteria. Under most people's criteria, flash qualifies as the best of all time.
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You should check the dictionary for the word "best".
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EPT
