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On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
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On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Yeah Mvp not making top ten is a tough position to take. Even if you try to discredit him, I can't honestly say that there are 10 players better. Barring other players go beast mode and Mvp crapping out of everything in the next 3 weeks, he's top 10.
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On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Same could have honestly been said about Innovation. Revival and alive may be a bit underrated, but nothing really to write home about. 2-1 Roro and 3-2 Mvp isn't exactly a dominating run.
Not saying Innovation wasn't impressive, because he was. Not saying he's not #1, because he is. But people have been trying to convince others all weekend that Mvp is basically washed up and hasn't been legitimately tested. It's an easy argument to make only if you refuse to think about it.
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On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (irrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
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On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
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United States97274 Posts
the way he's playing right now Gumiho couldnt do it either.
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I'd say that it's pretty debatable that Bogus is better than Flash at TvT.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
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On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote:
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT.
And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
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Also mvp lost to Innovation is mostly due to some stupid hellbat drops battle, which he is clearly in a disadvantage because Innovation has so much speed and precision. Mvp's lategame TvT looks quite stellar.
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On June 09 2013 19:36 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months. "could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it. Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him. The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
I said "Could make for an 'extremely good run'". If beating Ryung + Forgg makes for an "extremely good run, then we have had a loooot of "extremely good runs".
I am just saying you went full Tasteless with the exaggeration.
And I do sincerely believe that all players I mentioned have the potential to beat Ryung and Forgg and then lose vs Bogus to make for an "extremely good run."
ForGG being a TvT specialist... vs foreigners. And sorry, but hasn't foreign terrans always been worse than the zergs/tosses? So not only foreigners, but in their worst race. That doesn't make for a very amazing specialist imo.
Oh well this argument is stupid, I am out before something bad happens. I will read if you reply.
Once again, I do think Mvp deserved his spot. I just replied to exaggerated comments, which in hindsight I probably shouldn't have done.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On June 09 2013 19:49 1raxexpand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote:
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos
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On June 09 2013 19:53 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:36 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months. "could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it. Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him. The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do. I said "Could make for an 'extremely good run'". If beating Ryung + Forgg makes for an "extremely good run, then we have had a loooot of "extremely good runs". I am just saying you went full Tasteless with the exaggeration. And I do sincerely believe that all players I mentioned have the potential to beat Ryung and Forgg and then lose vs Bogus to make for an "extremely good run." ForGG being a TvT specialist... vs foreigners. And sorry, but hasn't foreign terrans always been worse than the zergs/tosses? So not only foreigners, but in their worst race. That doesn't make for a very amazing specialist imo. Oh well this argument is stupid, I am out before something bad happens. I will read if you reply. Once again, I do think Mvp deserved his spot. I just replied to exaggerated comments, which in hindsight I probably shouldn't have done.
Nothing bad can come of this, I enjoy these discussions and I will keep it civil if you will.
ForGG's record is absolutely inflated by playing easier European opponents, however before losing to Mvp it was at a staggering 94% in HotS. And that was not under a small number of games but at least 50. You have to be damn good at a match up to have that high of a win rate even if It's against easier opponents.
Beating Ryung and ForGG alone does not make an amazing run, I'm including the two wins against Innovation in the amazing run. If he had looked as bad as Alive did and been 3-0'd by Innovation I would not be singing the same tune as I am right now.
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On June 09 2013 19:57 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:49 1raxexpand wrote:On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote:
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think. no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos
Yes, you think. Nice argument!
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On June 09 2013 20:00 1raxexpand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:57 opterown wrote:On June 09 2013 19:49 1raxexpand wrote:On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote:
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think. no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos Yes, you think. Nice argument!
i'm not arguing lol, i'm stating my opinion. not much of an argument
you should be less snide
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all this fuss about a subjective power rank :/
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On June 09 2013 19:30 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 19:21 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 19:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 19:13 Dodgin wrote:On June 09 2013 18:59 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 09 2013 18:51 rename wrote:On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote:
hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat! Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8. It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all. Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy. Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation). Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run. Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run. Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL. I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run." If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run. Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky. Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same. Edit (irrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
Do you even watch this game? Flash is probably the only person you listed who is that good at TvT. Again, previous results are irrelevant and all that. GuMiHo and Bomber? Overrated as fuck. BaBy? What are you smoking? Keen maybe on a good day, FantaSy certainly not yet as much as I'd like him to be back in his BW form.
And lol, nobody said Mvp is not able to drop out before Ro8, it was a joke that he never lost in a Ro8 EVER, he either dropped out before or afterwards...
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I hear somebody does not deserve something he legitimately played for in SC2. This is news to me.
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If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote:
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
but innovation is the best rts player of all time
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EPT
