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On June 05 2013 01:39 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 01:36 Plansix wrote:On June 05 2013 00:26 NoobSkills wrote:
Soon at the end of every game it will auto gg for both players. Both players will receive notices their enemy has quit. Everyone will win every single game. All in order to make sure nobody has "ladder anxiety." What is the point of playing a video game if you're not consistently trying to improve and do better? Maybe I look at it wrong, but I didn't think we needed last place trophies in SC2 as well... I don't know about that, but there is a cause and effect thing going on in games where they add a ladder or ranking system. League of Legends has a problem where the solo match making cue for ranked games is the most toxic place ever. But the rest of the game normal(ie, still toxic, but not evil). Riot has been trying to figure out how to get a handle of that issue, because they want people to be able play solo. Dota 2 doesn't have a solo ladder and tries to stay away from rankings without some sort of team involved. If Blizzard is seeing a problem with player behavior and getting demoted in SC2, they should try to address it. It seems like they are catering to casuals to make them feel better, but there is such a thing as providing to much negative feed back. When a player is demoted, the game might as well just say "You have gotten more terrible, welcome to a scrubbier league". Nothing changed, they are still playing against people of a specific MMR. All the demotion did was make them feel worse about their play and the losing streak they were on. If people getting demoted is causing mid or low level players to decide they want to play something else, its bad for SC2. I know there are people who want the game to be "hard core", but that only limits SC2 to a small group of people. The game shouldn't tell a player who just lost a series of games, "by the way, no only did you lose, but we are moving you down to a scrubbier league and putting the training wheels back on." Off topic, but Dota 2 does have a solo-only queue now. Who knows if it uses a separate MMR, though.
Agreed, but there is no ladder for solo-only queue and I don't think there ever will be. I hope not, as it is a team game through and through. Personally, there is part of me that don't want Dota 2 to ever have a ladder for anything other than teams. There is a special joy to just playing the game to play and not working for anything else, or caring about anything but the win.
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I dont think this is a good idea but i guess what goes goes.
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Why not just remove that "league" system completely?
Just a win/loss or even just wins for portrait would be fine.
For the Masters/GM, keep their league. The rest really don't need it.
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Lots of people misinterpreting what this actually means to the system. This changes nothing apart from what symbol you have next to your name for the rest of a season. It will in no way 'lock' your MMR in a league that is too high for you..
It makes no difference to me but I think the added pressure of holding on to your league did make it more interesting though, but then again I don't suppose you really want people to stop playing in order to cling on to their league status for the season.
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159 Posts
Obviously Blizzard don't want to lose newbie players. Probably newbies lose interest if they can not see themselves advancing, not to mention about demoting. So keeping them playing in certain league while playing according actual MMR must retain more participants overall.
ps. Shame but most of my ingame friends do not play anymore (I have about 30 - 40 inactive of them) . I hope Blizzard will not repeat HOTS mistake and will release LotV before players will get bored of HOTS.
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Well, I think it's a pretty good change. I know a few player who just stopped playing because they were afraid they could get demoted and not get their "Master-League"-Achievement at the end of the season. I think that's also the reason for this change tbh.
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you play people that are your skill ... doesnt matter what league you are in.
shit how can people STILL not understand how the ladder works?
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On June 04 2013 07:19 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 07:13 dUTtrOACh wrote:On June 04 2013 07:11 Heyoka wrote:
Not entirely sure why everyone is so mad at this. I'd guess it doesn't effect basically anything, and that the 2% (or whatever it is) of masters will be made up of MMR calculations and not what is displayed, so those who have dropped below will still free up slots. It just won't show on their account. They're still taking up spaces in the leagues, though. Some people play a couple of games early in the season and then disappear off the face of the Earth. It makes it really annoying for people who are due for a promotion but can't get one until a new league opens up as ranked player numbers hopefully increase. That's not how league promotions work. There are MMR boundaries that you have to pass with a certain margin of confidence. The boundaries are static and based on some educated prediction of active ladder population distribution. There are no "open/filled spots" in a direct sense, so demotions/promotions happen independent of one another.
This post needs to be like highlighted into the OP I think or something, it is 100% accurate
the league percentile distributions aren't a hard and fast rule, they are a general framework that the system tries to maintain. As long as you exceed the mmr boundary for masters (or any league) by the required threshold you will get promoted. It does not matter if the league is currently "over saturated" or whatever, the entrance boundary is static and has nothing to do w/ the exact # of players in the league (obviously GM is the exception)
And as has been stated multiple times, mmr is the only metric that determines who you get placed with in ladder-- and consequently looking at the average skill of the opponents you draw in a ladder session will be a better gauge of your current skill than where your current season rank is.
Overall I think this change is nice, but ultimately not terribly impactful. There is no incentive for players to flee ladder mid season now after reaching their rank goal. (I made masters- better not play anymore this season so I can get the end of season badge!)
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On June 05 2013 03:05 MrTortoise wrote:
you play people that are your skill ... doesnt matter what league you are in.
shit how can people STILL not understand how the ladder works?
I agree that it does not influence who you are matched with, but leagues do have at least some reason, to have a sort of competition within your own league.
If it does not matter wich league you are in, then they should just remove leagues completely.(can hear the manny low masters crying about that already lol)
Leagues are there for a reason (wichever that may be) and as long as they are there they should mean something.
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I don't really understand why they are putting this in. I mean if you lose a lot, you should lose a rank. Sort of makes ladder mean even less than it already does. Now you only have to care about a couple placement matches every season
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Pointless having a ladder when they go through with this. they may as well removed points gained and points lost as well. If the real rating of a player is represented by a hidden number whats the point of a league system.
Why dont they remove all the leagues and merge them into one huge one that all players are a member of
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On June 05 2013 04:11 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
I don't really understand why they are putting this in. I mean if you lose a lot, you should lose a rank. Sort of makes ladder mean even less than it already does. Now you only have to care about a couple placement matches every season
As a said before, there is such at thing as to much negative feed back. A player who is enjoying ranked games and playing can no longer be demoted from a sick losing streak or just being out of practice. Lets take me for example. I was pretty hardcore into SC2, playing 2-3 games after work and a ton on the weekend. Then my significant other's father passed away and I no longer had time to play and practice SC2. Eight months later I went back placed into my old league and was demoted within 20 games. I continued to play for a while with my limited time, but kept having a losing record, risking being demoted further. After a while, I just stopped playing(as I didn't have a lot of free time anyways) and only went back when HotS came out.
Did I play less because I got demoted? No, but it didn't help, that is for sure. That is the question people have to ask: How does getting demoted help people get back into the game or stay with the game? The ladder is only good if it doesn't discourage amature players from enjoying their time on the ladder.
Or to put it differently, people don't get judged on their weekend pick up basket ball game, they just play.
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On June 05 2013 02:12 B1itZZ wrote:
Lots of people misinterpreting what this actually means to the system. This changes nothing apart from what symbol you have next to your name for the rest of a season. It will in no way 'lock' your MMR in a league that is too high for you..
It makes no difference to me but I think the added pressure of holding on to your league did make it more interesting though, but then again I don't suppose you really want people to stop playing in order to cling on to their league status for the season.
Oh now I see. I was a bit confused, but now I think the system is a pretty good idea, as it can only serve to motivate people (being demoted can be depressing). As long as it doesn't affect the relative skill required to get into diamond league (or any other) then its fine, and since MMR still works the same, then its all okay.
Sure there will be a slightly higher percentage of people in certain leagues, as some people won't want to do any new placement matches. But its irrelevant really...I mean who cares what exact percentage of people are in masters? All that matters is that you deserve to be in masters (or some other league) once you attain the required MMR. And those who don't have the required MMR but are still in masters will feel better and have a chance to earn their way back into their league, or just leave it if they feel there's too much pressure.
I can say on a personal level I would feel a lot better about playing SC2 now as I'm less afraid of experiencing the depressing feeling of being demoted. Since there are no downsides for anyone else, this is a great win-win situation
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good stuff. Glad blizzard made the change!
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I thought the whole idea of having the unranked ladder was so that people who feel that they "lucked out" on a promotion or feel they are out of shape can practice to get their game together?
Feels like it placates occasional players who care more about rank than actual skill, and punishes those really looking to improve. Makes it more difficult to figure out where your/your opponent's skills stand.
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Considering how many matches you have to lose in a row to actually get demoted, I don't think this really has any impact at all.
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On June 05 2013 04:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 04:11 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
I don't really understand why they are putting this in. I mean if you lose a lot, you should lose a rank. Sort of makes ladder mean even less than it already does. Now you only have to care about a couple placement matches every season As a said before, there is such at thing as to much negative feed back. A player who is enjoying ranked games and playing can no longer be demoted from a sick losing streak or just being out of practice. Lets take me for example. I was pretty hardcore into SC2, playing 2-3 games after work and a ton on the weekend. Then my significant other's father passed away and I no longer had time to play and practice SC2. Eight months later I went back placed into my old league and was demoted within 20 games. I continued to play for a while with my limited time, but kept having a losing record, risking being demoted further. After a while, I just stopped playing(as I didn't have a lot of free time anyways) and only went back when HotS came out. Did I play less because I got demoted? No, but it didn't help, that is for sure. That is the question people have to ask: How does getting demoted help people get back into the game or stay with the game? The ladder is only good if it doesn't discourage amature players from enjoying their time on the ladder. Or to put it differently, people don't get judged on their weekend pick up basket ball game, they just play.
There is unranked play to get back into the swing of things. They may as well remove the leagues since you are matched based on MMR and now you can't even drop a league. It has zero meaning now
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On June 05 2013 23:21 HappyTimePANDA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 04:31 Plansix wrote:On June 05 2013 04:11 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
I don't really understand why they are putting this in. I mean if you lose a lot, you should lose a rank. Sort of makes ladder mean even less than it already does. Now you only have to care about a couple placement matches every season As a said before, there is such at thing as to much negative feed back. A player who is enjoying ranked games and playing can no longer be demoted from a sick losing streak or just being out of practice. Lets take me for example. I was pretty hardcore into SC2, playing 2-3 games after work and a ton on the weekend. Then my significant other's father passed away and I no longer had time to play and practice SC2. Eight months later I went back placed into my old league and was demoted within 20 games. I continued to play for a while with my limited time, but kept having a losing record, risking being demoted further. After a while, I just stopped playing(as I didn't have a lot of free time anyways) and only went back when HotS came out. Did I play less because I got demoted? No, but it didn't help, that is for sure. That is the question people have to ask: How does getting demoted help people get back into the game or stay with the game? The ladder is only good if it doesn't discourage amature players from enjoying their time on the ladder. Or to put it differently, people don't get judged on their weekend pick up basket ball game, they just play. There is unranked play to get back into the swing of things. They may as well remove the leagues since you are matched based on MMR and now you can't even drop a league. It has zero meaning now
There wasn't in WoL when I was playing. Unranked is fine, but people still want to compete, advance in their league and try to get promoted. Leagues and ladders only represent you competing against yourself and a small set of people. And you can still drop leagues, but it happens between seasons. People may place into a lower league based on their MMR, but then they have the ability to climb back up.
If people want an active and robust ladder, it needs to avoid providing to much negative feed back to the player. People do not enjoy losing and getting demoted right after a loss only tilts people further. If the ladder is more focused on how much people can improve for each season, it provides much better feedback for amateur players where this is their only venue to compete.
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On June 05 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:21 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On June 05 2013 04:31 Plansix wrote:On June 05 2013 04:11 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
I don't really understand why they are putting this in. I mean if you lose a lot, you should lose a rank. Sort of makes ladder mean even less than it already does. Now you only have to care about a couple placement matches every season As a said before, there is such at thing as to much negative feed back. A player who is enjoying ranked games and playing can no longer be demoted from a sick losing streak or just being out of practice. Lets take me for example. I was pretty hardcore into SC2, playing 2-3 games after work and a ton on the weekend. Then my significant other's father passed away and I no longer had time to play and practice SC2. Eight months later I went back placed into my old league and was demoted within 20 games. I continued to play for a while with my limited time, but kept having a losing record, risking being demoted further. After a while, I just stopped playing(as I didn't have a lot of free time anyways) and only went back when HotS came out. Did I play less because I got demoted? No, but it didn't help, that is for sure. That is the question people have to ask: How does getting demoted help people get back into the game or stay with the game? The ladder is only good if it doesn't discourage amature players from enjoying their time on the ladder. Or to put it differently, people don't get judged on their weekend pick up basket ball game, they just play. There is unranked play to get back into the swing of things. They may as well remove the leagues since you are matched based on MMR and now you can't even drop a league. It has zero meaning now There wasn't in WoL when I was playing. Unranked is fine, but people still want to compete, advance in their league and try to get promoted. Leagues and ladders only represent you competing against yourself and a small set of people. And you can still drop leagues, but it happens between seasons. People may place into a lower league based on their MMR, but then they have the ability to climb back up. If people want an active and robust ladder, it needs to avoid providing to much negative feed back to the player. People do not enjoy losing and getting demoted right after a loss only tilts people further. If the ladder is more focused on how much people can improve for each season, it provides much better feedback for amateur players where this is their only venue to compete.
But to me the thrill of advancing gets so much more meaning when you can also fall. This change seems like the mentality of when everyone gets a participation trophy instead of praising the people who do the best. Now someone can pay to be boosted and they have no fear of dropping out until the next season, not to mention if someone gets lucky in their placement matches and gets into a league above their true skill level. It takes more than a couple of losses to drop a league, if you lose a ton in a row, should ladder not reflect the fact that your skill has dropped? How is that fair to the other people in your league? Now youll never know how good you are compared to them because they might only be at a 15% win/loss ratio but are still in your league
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EPT
