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On May 29 2013 08:10 Steel wrote:
Sure I think this might be a good change. I'm a Zerg player and I agree that protoss needs something in the midgame to keep the zerg in check. Still, I think some protoss all ins are bullshit and they are pretty much unbeatable in the late game. I wish Blizzard did something about that so that zerg could effectively play defensive and go for much longer games. I don't want it to be overpowered like broodlord infestor, but it should be viable. It is for the other races. Zerg is really strong because tech switches are really strong and can give you a huge advantage, but protoss can scout so easily. If the Zerg doesn't overwhelm protoss using tech switches, it really doesn't look good though. It's rare that zerg wins in these really late game scenarios, but it happens, often in crazy base-trade scenarios.
Ya, it's a good change, but they are other unaddressed problems in the match up.
Yeah, this is true--and I think is also the actual problem that people have with this buff.
There are a lot of things that need tweaking--and a lot of players feel sensitive about those tweaks being delayed. So if you already think that a race is OP, any and all buffs to said race is "too much" when in actually it should be seen on its own.
A lot of people are complaining about all-ins pretty much none of the all ins require medivac speed at all... This buff doesn't change any of the all-ins at all. However, since it doesn't deter the all-ins a lot of players are angered by it.
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On May 29 2013 08:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 29 2013 07:57 sitromit wrote:On May 29 2013 07:41 Adonminus wrote:On May 29 2013 07:37 archwaykitten wrote:
I don't like this idea. I love using speed warp prisms, but I like having to upgrade them first because it makes me feel more unique when I have to go out of my way to get them.
Also, the upgrade is already cheap and the infrastructure to get it is already in place in every long game. This buff will do almost nothing to help in long games. Removing research as a prerequisite is really only going to help out with timings in the early game, and that is one area in which Protoss already excels. There are 2 problems which delay as from getting speed warp prisms: 1) We have to fully commit to robo tech by getting robo bay and researching speed. 2) We lose valuable time on robo which could have been colossi since we already got robo bay. This would solve those 2 problems, also note that speed prisms is stronger with the twilight tech lab having high templars, dark templars or chargelots are extremly strong with speed prism, but we usually can't get them until late game since we need the full robo tech path. Also the timings with speed prism, I think it'll be more similar to hellbat drop, you commit to a very fast drop but it doesn't end the game, just damages the enemy enough to get economical advantage. The difference is that a Terran who drops Hellbats can't forcefield your main, and can't reinforce those Hellbats with more warp ins. 2 hellbats does wipe out a mineral line in 2-3 attacks. The same is not true for a protoss player warping in sentries... Sure, its just takes like 200 gas to forcefield twice and then 400 minerals to deal with the mineral line in a reasonable period of time. I mean, the cost of Hellbats is way more.....wait...fuck.
You're gonna get me in trouble at work if you make me laugh this loud too often
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Also I wonder why protoss is under performing with all the "nexus cannon too strong", "all ins troo strong", "lategame too strong" and this imba and that imba. How does protoss lose then? Maybe it's not that strong as you think. We saw tons of times terrans and zerg easily defending all ins and going into late game and winning. I think it's just myths about protoss being too strong.
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On May 29 2013 08:24 Adonminus wrote:
Also I wonder why protoss is under performing with all the "nexus cannon too strong", "all ins troo strong", "lategame too strong" and this imba and that imba. How does protoss lose then? Maybe it's not that strong as you think. We saw tons of times terrans and zerg easily defending all ins and going into late game and winning. I think it's just myths about protoss being too strong.
The answer is internets.
All units and all strategies are always too strong and always too weak all at the same time.
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On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:33 ReMiiX wrote:
I want medivacs to have speed boost all the time.
Seriously though, with the old buff on warp prism health this would be way way way to difficult to beat. Maybe if they dropped shield or health I could see the speed increase being fair. If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats.
Oh wait... :O
But for sure, I think improving Protoss' ability to attack would be nice. Maybe instead of warping in units, it can mass recall units (limit 4-6) on cooldown or energy (so you can basically bring in 8-10 units)? And maybe the mass recall ability requires an upgrade from the Robo Bay or the Fleet Beacon. I think it would be sick to recall a small army instead of warping one in.z
Speed is fine, but not the way the Warp Prism functions now. Well, to be honest, it just makes DT drops more annoying. MOST other all ins or cheeses won't be affected too strongly. The Sentry drop won't be much better since it just lets you get into position a little quicker.
Or maybe make the warp in function an upgrade. As it is, the only all ins I see being used with the warp prism involve DTs, 4 gates, Sentry drop, and acting as a mobile Pylon for Robo pushes. I don't think buffing the speed makes it much stronger (especially if you increase the transformation time).
As it is, Protoss is a pretty cheesy race because of all the strong early-mid game options it has if it catches someone off guard. It'll be hard to get a race of cheesers to go for something that stop doing tunnel vision strategies like all ins and turtling. The really good Protoss players will make good use of it, and I hope it makes them win a GSL, but for the rest of them, it doesn't really do much, so they'll still complain because only a few of them know how to play macro games properly. Protoss players have never really been known for their multitasking to the level of Zerg and Protoss players, because it's literally warp and rally. Zealots and Warp Prisms are expendable because they only cost minerals when Protoss wants nothing but gas. It's like making Medivacs cost 200 minerals only, have permenant boost, not heal, but carry 4 hell bats and being able to warp more hell bats as a mech player. You're not really crying about it because you don't want those minerals, but they're being invested in keeping your opponent from attacking you while you replace that supply with gas units that you do want. It's not like Terran has Spine Crawlers or Cannons that defend bases for 0 supply. A PF doesn't defend everything and is not as strong as dropping 5 Cannons/Spine Crawlers except maybe against Lings. Yes, it can be repaired, but that requires more attention than Spines and Cannons.
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Good change. This might revive the Immo drops in PvP. Aslo could hit the 7:22 dt drop more accurate >
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On May 29 2013 08:19 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 08:17 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 29 2013 07:57 sitromit wrote:On May 29 2013 07:41 Adonminus wrote:On May 29 2013 07:37 archwaykitten wrote:
I don't like this idea. I love using speed warp prisms, but I like having to upgrade them first because it makes me feel more unique when I have to go out of my way to get them.
Also, the upgrade is already cheap and the infrastructure to get it is already in place in every long game. This buff will do almost nothing to help in long games. Removing research as a prerequisite is really only going to help out with timings in the early game, and that is one area in which Protoss already excels. There are 2 problems which delay as from getting speed warp prisms: 1) We have to fully commit to robo tech by getting robo bay and researching speed. 2) We lose valuable time on robo which could have been colossi since we already got robo bay. This would solve those 2 problems, also note that speed prisms is stronger with the twilight tech lab having high templars, dark templars or chargelots are extremly strong with speed prism, but we usually can't get them until late game since we need the full robo tech path. Also the timings with speed prism, I think it'll be more similar to hellbat drop, you commit to a very fast drop but it doesn't end the game, just damages the enemy enough to get economical advantage. The difference is that a Terran who drops Hellbats can't forcefield your main, and can't reinforce those Hellbats with more warp ins. 2 hellbats does wipe out a mineral line in 2-3 attacks. The same is not true for a protoss player warping in sentries... Sure, its just takes like 200 gas to forcefield twice and then 400 minerals to deal with the mineral line in a reasonable period of time. I mean, the cost of Hellbats is way more.....wait...fuck. You're gonna get me in trouble at work if you make me laugh this loud too often
Yeah, the whole argument falls apart when you remember that Hellbats cost the same amount as two zealots and shoot in a cone of sadness.
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I think it would make PvZ unbalanced to be honest, but I am Zerg so I may be biased.
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On May 29 2013 08:29 MrMedic wrote:
I think it would make PvZ unbalanced to be honest, but I am Zerg so I may be biased.
And so honest. Zerg has the tools to deal with a quick WP, even if it means making an extra queen or two.
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On May 29 2013 08:29 MrMedic wrote:
I think it would make PvZ unbalanced to be honest, but I am Zerg so I may be biased.
its easy enough to get speed right now before 10 minutes.
What is this pre-10 minute timing that speed would break the game?
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Why is the Blizzard solution to everything, "make it faster"?
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On May 29 2013 08:35 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 08:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 29 2013 08:29 MrMedic wrote:
I think it would make PvZ unbalanced to be honest, but I am Zerg so I may be biased. its easy enough to get speed right now before 10 minutes. What is this pre-10 minute timing that speed would break the game? Immo/sentry already broken imo. Any small improvement makes it all the more ridiculous.
Faster WP doesn't really make Immortal/Sentry much better. It's not like the limiting factor in pickup micro is speed or something.
Besides, top level PvZ hasn't been the Immortal/Sentry fest it was in WoL. I don't see any evidence that it's a broken build.
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Another nail in the coffin of mech tvp...
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On May 29 2013 07:46 Phoenix2003 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 05:41 Crownlol wrote:
Man, so many scumbag Z and T in here:
"Protoss is boring to play against, they just mass and a move"
"Don't give Protoss any buffz!"
"Protoss players are worse, that's why they aren't doing well"
"Don't give Protoss any micro-intensive units!"
Edit - Make Charge researched at Cybercore, put it more in line with Stim and Conc. Couldn't agree more, fella. First they complain Toss is too 1 dimensional and boring. But when Toss attempts to get something that helps us P players get away from lame ass playstyles, T/Z QQ to Hell and back. Terran and Zerg players are truly the scum of the earth.
Maybe that is because a buff like this will only help Protoss go further down the wrong road. I would have liked to see Oracle turn into a core unit instead of what it is now, which is pretty much a semi all-in unit that is almost useless in lategame. They should nerf the damage and increase the hit points and maybe consider making it skill-shot based or something like that. The problem right now is that the high damage and high move speed requires it to have to little health that it is useless once your opponant has decent anti air.
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I think that Protoss are still getting used to what they can get away with. sOs was ridiculously too greedy against Soulkey for example.
"Hey I am going to get a 3rd base even though the zerg isnt droning up and is going speedling/roach"
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I like the change, but Zerg are going to need a drop buff or something--not that zergs are doing badly, but it seems like conservative, waiting-for-the-right army composition type play is already coming back with the infestor coming back into style. Or maybe I just mean: give me more imba stuff, too.
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I watch streams all day and PL/GSL every night, and at the highest level Protoss is pretty easy to exploit.
However, this change runs the risk of making PvT a drop-fest, and PvZ/PvP even more Muta/Phoenix.
If you like how Terrans only rush to Hellbat drops or Bio drops every game, then you'll also like Protoss rushing to Immortal drops, DT drops, or Storm drops almost every game.
With the Mothership Core, Warp Prism is already decent for mid-game harass. You can use Time Warp or Recall to assist gate-unit warp-ins. This speed buff will mean less gate-unit prism harass, and more immortal or storm drops. This is okay with me as a Protoss, I love speed prisms, and I am more than willing to go for drops every game.
SC2 will become mostly about Drops, Mutas, n Static D.. but I guess at least it's not always deathballs!
Moving Gravitic Drive to the Cybernetics Core would be a possible compromise if testing proves Speed Prisms at 6min are too strong. Easier to get it sooner is cool, automatic might be too much.
Making it cheaper (75/75) would encourage more use. (same should happen to Overlord Speed/Burrow)
I still think the most glaring problem at the highest level is that Medivac Afterburners are free.
Medivacs always have a ton of Energy, rarely needing to worry about overstimming. Feedbacking Medivacs in late-game usually just snipes them off in one shot.
Making Afterburners cost a little Energy would make Feedback prevent Medivacs from using boost, but would kill them a lot less. A fair trade for Terrans having to decide whether to spend their Medivac Energy on Heal, or on Boost. It's definitely a nerf, but a fair one for a free spell.
A slight buff to Oracle speed should make them easier to keep alive, just leave acceleration where it is.
Oracle harass seems to be just as underused as Prism harass. Making both a bit better means more choices.
TLDR: I like this idea, but think it needs to be moved to Cyber Core instead, and also buff Oracle speed.
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Why does anyone think MORE speed for speedy Oracles is what they'd need if they need anything?!!?
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wow..straight away no upgrade required. I will be so scared if this happens coz I dont see myself winning a single tvp after that
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EPT
