After watching this season's GSL Code S RO16 Group B for the third time, I just realised that PartinG vs Life (match 5, set 1) on Star Station was played on Fast game speed instead of Faster. I don't want to take away anything from PartinG's incredible play, but this is a rather big deal given PartinG had to micro his heart out against Life's speedling all-in. Yes, his micro (especially probe micro) and building placement were impeccable, but it's questionable whether he could have done the same on Faster game speed as well, as it's undoubtedly easier on Fast speed.
Here is the VOD:
This, however, doesn't matter now, although I think it's worth pointing GOM's mistake out, so that it cannot happen in the future again. Ironically, in today's GSTL match between LG-IM Prime they had to restart the game between First and Byun after First luckily spotted that the game speed was initially set Fast instead of Faster. The game host and the players should pay more attention in the future to setting up the game correctly.
Here is the proof (thanks to slmw):
Upd: Apparently GSL doesn't use GameHeart, I'm sorry for the wrong guess.
Upd: Apparently, the game speed was changed when one of the observers set referee (HeavenDom?) zoomed in during the introduction of Life and accidentally hit "-" on his keyboard. It's easy to spot the drones suddenly slowing down. Finally, this should be the reason behind noone noticing it.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
I am 110% sure. Take a closer look at it: even the workers move much slower, and you can easily compare with another game and realise the difference between the game timers.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
You really think this wouldn't affect other races and playstyles differently? I'm fairly sure for example marinemicro on slower speed would get far greater benefit than anything else other races do.
Yeah, I'm running G1 of their first set on Bel'Shir in one window and G1 of their second set on Star Station on the other,, synched both up 20 seconds in on the ingame clock, currently the Bel'shir game clock is on 4.00 while the Star Station game in on 3.35.
On May 18 2013 00:04 Thesper wrote: Yeah, I'm running G1 of their first set on Bel'Shir in one window and G1 of their second set on Star Station on the other,, synched both up 20 seconds in on the ingame clock, currently the Bel'shir game clock is on 4.00 while the Star Station game in on 3.35.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
Most likely scenario : P
This happened in the GSTL tonight. The players noticed immediately and paused the game resulting in a regame. So I'm surprised that no one noticed.
Given how amazing this game was... Maybe we should start playing on fast rather than faster. Some more game tweaks would be needed, but the one time we see a game on fast all the way through, it was a fantastic game.
Wow, incredible find OP! How in the hell could this happen without any claim from Life and/or StarTale ? That's the biggest mistake I've seen in pro SC2 so far O.O
wtf, gom wat are you doing. Seriously, how can this happen. Makes me remember the 7-range 2xDPS marines strelok used vs violet Revival at that one iem.
Considering probably 99% of the games are played at faster speed, there should be a warning system to tell players when a game is started with anything slower. Thank you Psz for finding this.
The fact that *nobody* noticed -- all kinds of pro's who've also watched, commentators and analysers etc -- to me proves the difference was so small that its effects on the result (i.e. making easier to micro, considering protoss is more micro-dependent) couldn't have been deciding.
On May 18 2013 00:21 figq wrote: The fact that *nobody* noticed -- all kinds of pro's who've also watched, commentators and analysers etc -- to me proves the difference was so small that its effects on the result (i.e. making easier to micro, considering protoss is more micro-dependent) couldn't have been deciding.
It could be true but it was still an advantage nonetheless.
On May 18 2013 00:21 figq wrote: The fact that *nobody* noticed -- all kinds of pro's who've also watched, commentators and analysers etc -- to me proves the difference was so small that its effects on the result (i.e. making easier to micro, considering protoss is more micro-dependent) couldn't have been deciding.
It could be true but it was still an advantage nonetheless.
Without a doubt an advantage, but considering how Koreans have reacted to such (small) administrative issues leading to certain (dis)advantage - I expect Life to just declare he doesn't want rematch and honors the victory of Parting.
Also keep in mind there are luck-based small imbalances already - in starcraft it matters sometimes the order of starting locations, the side of terran buildings; in real sports it matters who's against the sun (and by the time they switch, the sun could be covered by clouds) etc etc. While these are advantages, they are usually tolerated and people accept them.
Reminds me of that one HomeStory Cup when Nightend and Moman played for like 15 minutes on fast and nobody noticed until White-Ra came by, took one look and recognized the mistake. :D
Poor Life, feels like that gave PartinG a big advantage in this particular situation.
I noticed first time watching that the workers were moving a little slowly, but I figured I must be wrong, it must be a problem with the stream because SURELY Life or PartinG would have picked up on it.
On May 18 2013 00:18 mishimaBeef wrote: GOM needs to respond
what do you wanat them to say? its not like they are gonna re play the match.
I want them to say they acknowledge the mistake, that it is their fault and that it won't happen again. Also apologize to those affected.
Get them to apologize for famine in africa too, and civilian losses in the middle east.
Uh what? They are hosting the tournament.
and? You're making a big deal over something so small. Demanding they come to TL and apologize?
None of the players complained, so it can be said that they didn't notice, ergo, they were not affected.
Just wait till this hits the Korean web. It will become a big deal.
Exactly, I expect this too. I mean DQ'ing someone over "pp" vs "ppp". Heh, I mean come on now. This is a legit game error not some nonsense technical crap about how to officially pause a game.
and? You're making a big deal over something so small. Demanding they come to TL and apologize?
None of the players complained, so it can be said that they didn't notice, ergo, they were not affected.
Just because they didn't notice doesn't mean that they were not affected. Having the game on a slightly slower speed made it significantly easier to micro against Life's all in.
We don't need to boycott GSL or anything...but they should apologize to the players and assure us that this won't happen again.
lol, tens of thousands of fans on TL that have been here forever, who knows how many people watched that game on GOM, the pros actually played it... ...and a 19 post OP delivers!
Yeah, I'm running G1 of their first set on Bel'Shir in one window and G1 of their second set on Star Station on the other,, synched both up 20 seconds in on the ingame clock, currently the Bel'shir game clock is on 4.00 while the Star Station game in on 3.35.
Life knocked down to Code A because of a game speed f*ckup?
On May 18 2013 00:43 soon.Cloak wrote: lol, tens of thousands of fans on TL that have been here forever, who knows how many people watched that game on GOM, the pros actually played it... ...and a 19 post OP delivers!
i watched it on live and didn't notice that, i think it's the VOD that go slower, not the game. Players or admin had to notice that and casters didn't mantionned that so i think you're wrong
On May 18 2013 00:47 RoranRock wrote: i watched it on live and didn't notice that, i think it's the VOD that go slower, not the game. Players or admin had to notice that and casters didn't mantionned that so i think you're wrong
If it was that the sound should be altered as well, which is not the case.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
On May 18 2013 00:48 Cokefreak wrote: Oh shit, I wonder how this is going to pan out.
They're not gonna do anything. This is just like Byun vs Nestea when Byun bunker blocked Nestea's natural because GSL Metropolis had no depots at the bottom of the ramps.
If Nestea or Life had complained about it during the game, there would've been a regame, but because this is in hindsight, nothing can be done.
Blizzard should really relabel Faster as Normal -_-'. Ladder is played at this speed. The only only time you don't play at this speed is 1) Practice League 2) Super EZ Mode Campaign.
Haha wow I can't believe it, this is the biggest fuck up in any tournament of this caliber yet I think lol. Well bad luck Life, but he won't care and will just win the next 5 GSLs.
Edit: Also watching the vod you can't help but laugh :D. Watching the probes move is so funny and still no one noticed. Not the players, not the casters and not even a single viewer, unbelievable!
On May 18 2013 00:48 Cokefreak wrote: Oh shit, I wonder how this is going to pan out.
They're not gonna do anything. This is just like Byun vs Nestea when Byun bunker blocked Nestea's natural because GSL Metropolis had no depots at the bottom of the ramps.
If Nestea or Life had complained about it during the game, there would've been a regame, but because this is in hindsight, nothing can be done.
No I mean what kind of a shit storm it will create in the community.
On May 18 2013 00:55 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: A mistake nonetheless but irrelevant, they played the game, Parting won, regardless of Game Speed. They both had the same advantage.
Arguably, you're allowed to have a slower reaction time to deal with speedlings with force fields, and it's easier to kite on slower speeds, so the delay favors Parting. If Life hadn't chosen speedling all ins, it might've been different.
On May 18 2013 00:55 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: A mistake nonetheless but irrelevant, they played the game, Parting won, regardless of Game Speed. They both had the same advantage.
I can't believe you say "irrelevant". Of course it is relevant. There are rules to be followed.
On May 18 2013 00:55 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: A mistake nonetheless but irrelevant, they played the game, Parting won, regardless of Game Speed. They both had the same advantage.
Arguably, you're allowed to have a slower reaction time to deal with speedlings with force fields, and it's easier to kite on slower speeds, so the delay favors Parting. If Life hadn't chosen speedling all ins, it might've been different.
yes but he did what he did. Honestly do you think that when the Gamespeed difference is so minute that it takes us to look back after-the-fact to notice, when people who play 10xxxx's of games don't notice, can you really believe it had any meaningful impact?
On May 18 2013 00:55 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: A mistake nonetheless but irrelevant, they played the game, Parting won, regardless of Game Speed. They both had the same advantage.
I can't believe you say "irrelevant". Of course it is relevant. There are rules to be followed.
Yes but it doesn't and shouldn't change the result of the game as there is no clear advantage gained anywhere. Simply a mistake that should be avoided in the future.
Wow. I do remember at the time thinking it looked slower, but for some reason it never clicked. I did time it out and it is totally played on a slower speed. Funny that a micro based player like parting didn't notice.
Obviously nothing can be done now. Perhaps there is a way to lock it for certain maps to be standard speed only for the future.
On May 18 2013 01:02 jakethesnake wrote: Wow. I do remember at the time thinking it looked slower, but for some reason it never clicked. I did time it out and it is totally played on a slower speed. Funny that a micro based player like parting didn't notice.
Obviously nothing can be done now. Perhaps there is a way to lock it for certain maps to be standard speed only for the future.
Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
On May 18 2013 00:55 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: A mistake nonetheless but irrelevant, they played the game, Parting won, regardless of Game Speed. They both had the same advantage.
I can't believe you say "irrelevant". Of course it is relevant. There are rules to be followed.
Yes but it doesn't and shouldn't change the result of the game as there is no clear advantage gained anywhere. Simply a mistake that should be avoided in the future.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
and on the highest viewer count in the ro16 too just compounds it lol.
I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Lmao, who hosted the game? I guess GOM handles hosting? Very curious how it happened, I'm at work, the gamespeed is a dropdown right? If it's selected(not dropped down) and you push down/scroll wheel, does it switch?
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Couldn't be further from the truth, Since the match wasn't a mirror. Also the game has been balanced around faster game speed so anything from high templars, siege tanks, lings, force fields etc all gain unfair advantages/disadvantages. Just thinking about it now I'd think zerg probably has the biggest disadvantage since alot of their early game relies on zerglings and flanks etc which is much easier to micro manage against with slower game speed.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
This, however, doesn't matter now, although I think it's worth pointing GOM's mistake out, so that it cannot happen in the future again. Ironically, in today's GSTL match between LG-IM Prime they had to restart the game between First and Byun after First luckily spotted that the game speed was initially set Fast instead of Faster. I believe this could only occur because of GOM using the custom map GameHeart, thus the game host and the players should pay more attention in the future to setting up the game correctly.
It's certainly not GameHeart's fault, as Code S doesn't even use it.
This, however, doesn't matter now, although I think it's worth pointing GOM's mistake out, so that it cannot happen in the future again. Ironically, in today's GSTL match between LG-IM Prime they had to restart the game between First and Byun after First luckily spotted that the game speed was initially set Fast instead of Faster. I believe this could only occur because of GOM using the custom map GameHeart, thus the game host and the players should pay more attention in the future to setting up the game correctly.
It's certainly not GameHeart's fault, as Code S doesn't even use it.
Correct.
Code S uses normal lobbies. Somebody set it to fast instead of fastest by accident.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
Ha. Well done for being both a complete jerk as well as completely wrong.
Shit, I'm a bit saddened by this :'( (not because Zerg got arguably screwed, but because I wanted to believe in PartinG's godliness). They should have noticed it.
Nice find. Of course it affects the game even if it isn't noticed by the players, so it's pretty poor by GOM not to make sure those things are correct. Maybe they should change the custom game mode so the speed isn't preset at medium or fast or whatever is the case now, and you instead have to manually select a gaming speed before you can start the game. Or they could just change so that faster is the default speed.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
Ha. Well done for being both a complete jerk as well as completely wrong.
On May 18 2013 01:36 ZenithM wrote: Shit, I'm a bit saddened by this :'( (not because Zerg got arguably screwed, but because I wanted to believe in PartinG's godliness). They should have noticed it.
He held the same all in in game 2 though. He would've held either way.
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Nice catch!
I think this is right - the comparisons so far have been from when the game is somewhat progressed. However, if you look during the player introductions, until at least 0:54 (where the timer on the game I was comparing to disappears for the player announce), the game clocks are synchronised.
This would also explain why the players didn't notice immediately, because the game started fine and then the speed was accidentally bumped at a later stage (in the comparison, when the timer on both games return, the time has diverged to 1:25 / 1:22).
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Nice catch!
I think this is right - the comparisons so far have been from when the game is somewhat progressed. However, if you look during the player introductions, until at least 0:54 (where the timer on the game I was comparing to disappears for the player announce), the game clocks are synchronised.
This would also explain why the players didn't notice immediately, because the game started fine and then the speed was accidentally bumped at a later stage (in the comparison, when the timer on both games return, the time has diverged to 1:25 / 1:22).
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened several time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened several time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
game speed is only an advantage to parting in the case of a speedling all in. You'd have to know what build Life was planning if you were going to matchfix it with gamespeed.
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Nice catch!
I think this is right - the comparisons so far have been from when the game is somewhat progressed. However, if you look during the player introductions, until at least 0:54 (where the timer on the game I was comparing to disappears for the player announce), the game clocks are synchronised.
This would also explain why the players didn't notice immediately, because the game started fine and then the speed was accidentally bumped at a later stage (in the comparison, when the timer on both games return, the time has diverged to 1:25 / 1:22).
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Nice catch!
I think this is right - the comparisons so far have been from when the game is somewhat progressed. However, if you look during the player introductions, until at least 0:54 (where the timer on the game I was comparing to disappears for the player announce), the game clocks are synchronised.
This would also explain why the players didn't notice immediately, because the game started fine and then the speed was accidentally bumped at a later stage (in the comparison, when the timer on both games return, the time has diverged to 1:25 / 1:22).
It's not a GameHeart feature, plain old Blizzard lobbies have this - make a custom game with AI players and yourself as referee and hit -. The game will slow down.
it's a huge advantage for protoss and even more so against the likes of Life that relies so much on catching people with his speedlings., gigantic mess up.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened severa l time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
game speed is only an advantage to parting in the case of a speedling all in. You'd have to know what build Life was planning if you were going to matchfix it with gamespeed.
It leans prett heavily in favor on the side for a protoss. You get more reaction time for basically every little attack zerg can throw at you, perfect spell casts etc. In a micro vs micro situation the protoss should come out on top on slower speeds the vast majority of the time.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened several time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
game speed is only an advantage to parting in the case of a speedling all in. You'd have to know what build Life was planning if you were going to matchfix it with gamespeed.
Didn't you know?
The headphones that Life was wearing were rigged up with mind-reading earpads. They used this to determine the ideal gamespeed to sabotage Life.
*insert eyeroll at original game-fixing accusation*
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Of course it is a huge advantage, in this case for the protoss. Zerg has a lot less army control requirements and especially in this particular case where it was lings vs buildings lol.
On May 18 2013 01:58 IshinShishi wrote: it's a huge advantage for protoss and even more so against the likes of Life that relies so much on catching people with his speedlings., gigantic mess up.
You should exaggerate some more. Literally over one hundred thousand people saw that game and neither of Pros involved opted for a pause (which they do over the tiniest monitor issues), so I doubt it had any real effect on the game.
It's bad, GOM should apologize, but at the end of the day it isn't that big of a deal.
On May 18 2013 01:21 oPPRoBe wrote: I know GomTV is using the Gameheart interface but one thing I have noticed is that when obsing a game when the lobby host designates you as a Referee, you can change the game speed by pressing the + or - key. When looking at the VOD, I'm pretty sure that the game started at Faster speed and then was bumped one notch down to Fast speed.
Nice catch!
I think this is right - the comparisons so far have been from when the game is somewhat progressed. However, if you look during the player introductions, until at least 0:54 (where the timer on the game I was comparing to disappears for the player announce), the game clocks are synchronised.
This would also explain why the players didn't notice immediately, because the game started fine and then the speed was accidentally bumped at a later stage (in the comparison, when the timer on both games return, the time has diverged to 1:25 / 1:22).
It's not a GameHeart feature, plain old Blizzard lobbies have this - make a custom game with AI players and yourself as referee and hit -. The game will slow down.
Lol, I bet this has happened in literally TONS of games then if Refs can accidentally drop game speed with a keypress.
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened several time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
You are suggesting matchfixing (one of the worst crimes in starcraft) without any proof whatsoever. just stop it.
On May 18 2013 02:08 Mortal wrote: 100% impossible for casters, player, spectators to not realize. Nope.
Yeah I don't believe it either... hell I watched it live and did not notice it then which would not be too bad as I am a masters scrub - but those 2 giants not noticing it? Close to impossible.
If anybody claims that Life deserved to win that game then they're just being ridiculous. Parting won the game decisively. It wasn't anything to do with an extra third of a second reaction time for each forcefield. The game never came down to a third of a second. Trying to take Parting's win away from him and saying he didn't deserve it and only won because somebody else made a technical error is petty and childish.
On May 18 2013 00:59 FabledIntegral wrote: What happened with Violet vs Strelok and the marines?!
It went into the lategame (marines had 7 range 15 base damage btw), and then they realized something was wrong when both players went straight over the 200 supply cap like it wasn't there
Can't it be an issue with the VOD of that particular game playing slower? That would explain both the difference in time stamps (which are all from VOD views) and the fact that nobody noticed during the actual game.
I actually saw it live as well and didn't notice anything and I have a hard time believing 2 pro players wouldn't either.
On May 18 2013 00:59 FabledIntegral wrote: What happened with Violet vs Strelok and the marines?!
It went into the lategame (marines had 7 range 15 base damage btw), and then they realized something was wrong when both players went straight over the 200 supply cap like it wasn't there
Hopefully that wasn't a professional tournament, lol.
On May 18 2013 02:08 Mortal wrote: 100% impossible for casters, player, spectators to not realize. Nope.
But it is possible, at least for casters IMO, to play it off and not bring attention to it.
Except the players pause for every little keyboard hiccup, they've restarted for game speed before, and I find it difficult to believe neither player would notice unless the difference was super tiny.
On May 18 2013 02:16 Mikau wrote: Can't it be an issue with the VOD of that particular game playing slower? That would explain both the difference in time stamps (which are all from VOD views) and the fact that nobody noticed during the actual game.
I actually saw it live as well and didn't notice anything and I have a hard time believing 2 pro players wouldn't either.
I think the sound would be a lot more messed up if it was slowed down like that?
On May 18 2013 00:59 FabledIntegral wrote: What happened with Violet vs Strelok and the marines?!
It went into the lategame (marines had 7 range 15 base damage btw), and then they realized something was wrong when both players went straight over the 200 supply cap like it wasn't there
Hopefully that wasn't a professional tournament, lol.
On May 18 2013 02:16 Mikau wrote: Can't it be an issue with the VOD of that particular game playing slower? That would explain both the difference in time stamps (which are all from VOD views) and the fact that nobody noticed during the actual game.
I actually saw it live as well and didn't notice anything and I have a hard time believing 2 pro players wouldn't either.
Caster voices would modulate to a lower than normal tone OR desync from game.
On May 18 2013 02:22 Wobulator wrote: I actually told my friend; "after that hyper-intense Innovation vs Life match, it almost looks like Life vs Parting is at slow speed". Good catch, OP!
I'm fairly certain I noticed it, but thought it was most likely my eyes just paying particular more attention to the probes (I only saw it for the first few minutes).
proof seems pretty damn good but it's still hard to believe noone would notice. Especially with injects or just the initial build order you notice this almost immediately when you play on a different speed. Perhaps the adrenaline clouded their judgement but also all the casters, the observer etc. I can't see what else it could be though, if it was just something with the VOD speed you would easily be able to verify that by which time certain key structures get put up compared to the in game timer.
On May 18 2013 02:26 Markwerf wrote: proof seems pretty damn good but it's still hard to believe noone would notice. Especially with injects or just the initial build order you notice this almost immediately when you play on a different speed.
I guess the inject thing might make sense, but doesn't most people base their build orders around specific times?
That's actually insane. With all the adrenaline going through you when playing for your tournament life in the highest-stakes tournament, it's not completely unrealistic that Life and Parting didn't realise anything. I'm surprised no one else did, or that no one else have brought attention to it until now.
On May 18 2013 02:26 Markwerf wrote: proof seems pretty damn good but it's still hard to believe noone would notice. Especially with injects or just the initial build order you notice this almost immediately when you play on a different speed.
I guess the inject thing might make sense, but doesn't most people base their build orders around specific times?
On May 18 2013 02:26 Markwerf wrote: proof seems pretty damn good but it's still hard to believe noone would notice. Especially with injects or just the initial build order you notice this almost immediately when you play on a different speed.
I guess the inject thing might make sense, but doesn't most people base their build orders around specific times?
The game was so great, maybe we should all be playing on Fast. I always wished that the fastest game speed was Fast rather than Faster, even the on the first year of playing SC1.
On Faster the game clock seconds are actually FASTER than real-world seconds which is silly if you think about it. It implies that Faster was never meant to be the default speed to play on.
On May 18 2013 02:42 KingOfNoodles wrote: So was the speed set to fast from the beginning of the game? Or did the referee accidentally press "-" during the game?
Like I said a bit earlier, the speed changed during Life's introduction (about 1:05 to 1:25 game time).
Yeah Partings defense was to good, Life should have won that game and possibly the series. That's depressing for zerg fans, as Life is one of the top players in the world.
On May 18 2013 02:41 ElMeanYo wrote: On Faster the game clock seconds are actually FASTER than real-world seconds which is silly if you think about it. It implies that Faster was never meant to be the default speed to play on.
lol, what kind of argument is this?
Fast seconds are real seconds because the campaign is on fast speed on normal difficulty which is what the vast majority of players who play the campaign choose.
He's right though. Back in starcraft 1 blizzard intended for people to play the game on normal speed. Then the koreans are just too crazy and played at fastest speed and realized the game was much better (true story). This is why faster is faster than the real life clock in sc2.
i really dont think thats such a big deal. ofc its kinda stupid, but i think parting would have done the same even on fastest speed. i mean it was decided early on, his whole attention was on defending anyway.. (btw i am a big life fanboy!)
On May 18 2013 02:22 llIH wrote: Not a big problem. But it is interesting that GOM didn't notice. Or at least that no one did anything about it! :D
Are you kidding me? This is a very big deal. A slower overall game speed is advantageous for the player who is playing passively and responding to the opponent, in this case: parting. An aggressive player relies on his opponent to be taken by surprise and respond slowly in effect so an overall slow speed is bad for whoever tries to initiate engagements. It's also very unsettling for the player who has a build prepared. They're going to feel "off" and slow throughout the game without knowing why even if his build order is right.
On May 18 2013 02:55 Acer1791 wrote: i really dont think thats such a big deal. ofc its kinda stupid, but i think parting would have done the same even on fastest speed. i mean it was decided early on, his whole attention was on defending anyway.. (btw i am a big life fanboy!)
I think it's a fairly big deal - considering Life's game plan was all about an aggressive ling attack, he was at a fairly large disadvantage due to Parting having an easier time microing against the lings, and more time to respond with force fields etc. Could Parting have won anyway? Maybe. Probably, even. But it's a big deal for sure.
I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
On May 18 2013 02:42 KingOfNoodles wrote: So was the speed set to fast from the beginning of the game? Or did the referee accidentally press "-" during the game?
Like I said a bit earlier, the speed changed during Life's introduction (about 1:05 to 1:25 game time).
IS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER LIFE'S POOL WAS BUILT?
I BROUGHT TINFOIL, EVERYBODY CAN PICK HOWEVER MUCH THEY NEED TO MAKE A HAT THANK YOU AND BE SAFE, FRIENDS.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
Life was the agressor, Parting was the defender. Having more time to react when he's the defender obviously gave Parting an advantage in that particular scenario.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
Then how would you explain the evidence ? So many ppl just go here and all they could say is "I dont believe it man. Someone must have notice it back then". Anyone of those ppl even look at the evidences ? It's kinda solid, and there's even a video proof on some of the first few pages. Like a child in denial stage.
This is a fairly big deal in terms of playing conditions. If I'm a player with 150apm against a player with 300apm then a slower gamespeed will benefit me. Similarly there are situations where the micro intensive unit composition benefits more from such a situation. It is impossible to say whether it influenced the outcome of this game, but it did influence the game in some way that we can't measure.
However theoretically it may suck for Life, it is even more unfair to PartinG (and Soulkey) to change the outcome now. At this point all you have is a choice between the lesser of two evils, which is letting the result stand. Hopefully Life gets an apology of some sort. Take notice, improve, and move on. Preferably without too much drama as we have enough of that already.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
The fact that they didn't say anything, that nothing was changed and that the game was played out on Fast instead of Faster seems to indicate that it isn't literally impossible
since it was on faster till 1:00+ and only then changed, given the circumstances of the match, its reasonable to say that players could've not noticed the speed change
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
Then how would you explain the evidence ? So many ppl just go here and all they could say is "I dont believe it man. Someone must have notice it back then". Anyone of those ppl even look at the evidences ? It's kinda solid, and there's even a video proof on some of the first few pages. Like a child in denial stage.
how about you read what I wrote above before making silly jabs? I said maybe it did happen, but these two players had to have noticed. why they wouldn't have said anything is completely beyond me. I understand casters and spec's not noticing, but these two know the game better than anyone in the world (among a select few others obviously).
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
both players were unbelievably stressed out. it was the final match of the group, and both players had heavily trash talked the other. they might have just assumed that they were so, "in the zone", that the game slowed down a little bit for them.
either way your absolute blinding refusal to see what happened is kinda funny.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
Rofl you're more than ignorant, you're stupid and prideful to a fault if you won't admit your original assessment was wrong.
Obviously it's too late to do anything about it now, but it's important to bring attention to it so that they're more careful about this kind of stuff in the future and such mistakes are avoided.
On May 18 2013 03:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a fairly big deal in terms of playing conditions. If I'm a player with 150apm against a player with 300apm then a slower gamespeed will benefit me. Similarly there are situations where the micro intensive unit composition benefits more from such a situation. It is impossible to say whether it influenced the outcome of this game, but it did influence the game in some way that we can't measure.
However theoretically it may suck for Life, it is even more unfair to PartinG to change the outcome now. At this point all you have is a choice between the lesser of two evils, which I think is let the result stand. Hopefully Life gets an apology of some sort. Take notice, improve, and move on. Preferably without too much drama as we have enough of that already.
Agreed. 0% result will be overturned aynway. This feels similar to that Nestea vs Byun(?) game where Nestea got the bottom of his ramp blocked because there was no neutral depot there.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
Rofl you're more than ignorant, you're stupid and prideful to a fault if you won't admit your original assessment was wrong.
maybe you missed the fact that I admitted it could've happened, but I don't understand how the players could've missed it. they're two of the best in the world. so the game speed was played on fast, yes I was wrong in that department. but how did these two not see it?
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
Then how would you explain the evidence ? So many ppl just go here and all they could say is "I dont believe it man. Someone must have notice it back then". Anyone of those ppl even look at the evidences ? It's kinda solid, and there's even a video proof on some of the first few pages. Like a child in denial stage.
how about you read what I wrote above before making silly jabs? I said maybe it did happen, but these two players had to have noticed. why they wouldn't have said anything is completely beyond me. I understand casters and spec's not noticing, but these two know the game better than anyone in the world (among a select few others obviously).
Because the game started on faster. I can easily tell the difference between faster and fast at the beginning of a game, but the players and everyone watching had the expectation that the game would remain on faster and would've dismissed any notions of how it felt slightly slower.
On May 18 2013 03:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a fairly big deal in terms of playing conditions. If I'm a player with 150apm against a player with 300apm then a slower gamespeed will benefit me. Similarly there are situations where the micro intensive unit composition benefits more from such a situation. It is impossible to say whether it influenced the outcome of this game, but it did influence the game in some way that we can't measure.
However theoretically it may suck for Life, it is even more unfair to PartinG to change the outcome now. At this point all you have is a choice between the lesser of two evils, which I think is let the result stand. Hopefully Life gets an apology of some sort. Take notice, improve, and move on. Preferably without too much drama as we have enough of that already.
Agreed. 0% result will be overturned aynway. This feels similar to that Nestea vs Byun(?) game where Nestea got the bottom of his ramp blocked because there was no neutral depot there.
lol what u gonna do anyway, punish SK and let him play vs life ro8 again and let mkp vs parting? lol
Since some people have said that observers can change the game speed, I think that Legend changed the speed by accident while doing the zooming in stuff. Tough luck.
Take this with a grain of salt because I DO NOT KNOW anything for sure.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
I like how OP preemptively provides direct evidence and yet people are so accustomed to fallaciously applying Argument from Authority that they boldly state he is incorrect. I bet life would be easier if my brain worked that way.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
I like how OP preemptively provides direct evidence and yet people are so accustomed to fallaciously applying Argument from Authority that they boldly state he is incorrect. I bet life would be easier if my brain worked that way.
Naw... originally there was no evidence in the OP whatsoever. With that evidence it is obvious that he is correct, but with no evidence this is a perfectly valid initial response.
and all those potentially blaming legend, he is def not the only referee/ observer in the games. heavendom does the observing for the korean stream and the intro timings play at the same time for both streams
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
I'm not sure how you can be in such denial when there's blinding evidence, video, image, and calculations in every page of this thread.
guess I'm just ignorant. maybe it did happen, but for both players to not say or do anything about it while playing such an important game seems literally impossible. they've played thousands and thousands of games. they know their shit better than basically anyone. they had to have noticed.
Rofl you're more than ignorant, you're stupid and prideful to a fault if you won't admit your original assessment was wrong.
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
Then how would you explain the evidence ? So many ppl just go here and all they could say is "I dont believe it man. Someone must have notice it back then". Anyone of those ppl even look at the evidences ? It's kinda solid, and there's even a video proof on some of the first few pages. Like a child in denial stage.
how about you read what I wrote above before making silly jabs? I said maybe it did happen, but these two players had to have noticed. why they wouldn't have said anything is completely beyond me. I understand casters and spec's not noticing, but these two know the game better than anyone in the world (among a select few others obviously).
Sorry dude I wrote my reply b4 reading yours. And it wasnt really personal meant for you but there were too many replies which were exactly like that, which pissed me off a litle. Still, point is that there are almost undeniable evidences saying the game speed was fast, plus the fast that the players apparently did not notice or noticed but chose not to say anything. You should have express your opinion on that weird events, instead of a purely denial post ( or at least that's what your 1st reply sounded like )
On May 18 2013 03:05 Mortal wrote: I'm still saying this isn't true. Players that pause when their monitor isn't exactly perfect and are so anal about every little detail don't notice the GAME SPEED? I mean get real. Maybe casters just play it off, spectators are lulled into a daze, but the pros wouldn't miss this.
Then how would you explain the evidence ? So many ppl just go here and all they could say is "I dont believe it man. Someone must have notice it back then". Anyone of those ppl even look at the evidences ? It's kinda solid, and there's even a video proof on some of the first few pages. Like a child in denial stage.
how about you read what I wrote above before making silly jabs? I said maybe it did happen, but these two players had to have noticed. why they wouldn't have said anything is completely beyond me. I understand casters and spec's not noticing, but these two know the game better than anyone in the world (among a select few others obviously).
Sorry dude I wrote my reply b4 reading yours. And it wasnt really personal meant for you but there were too many replies which were exactly like that, which pissed me off a litle. Still, point is that there are almost undeniable evidences saying the game speed was fast, plus the fast that the players apparently did not notice or noticed but chose not to say anything. You should have express your opinion on that weird events, instead of a purely denial post ( or at least that's what your 1st reply sounded like )
no I agree, you're 100% right. My original post was based upon the OP at the time which had 0 evidence whatsoever. it has since been updated and I've looked at what's been presented. my only question now is how these players didn't see it. they know their timings so incredibly well that it's just odd they didn't pick up on it. very unfortunate as it is actually a pretty big problem in the scheme of things.
A Social Psychologist can write a thesis on this. I'm no expert, so I don't know what it is called exactly, but something similar to Ringelmann_effect or Social_loafing happened.
A few % of people, including those working for GOM, must have noticed something strange, but literally every single one of them thought, " Someone ELSE will point out / take care of it." Then actually NO ONE did anything about it. It's really interesting and scary. What if some crucial games during WoL were played @ fast speed and no one has noticed yet today? It's quite possible.
Hah, I too noticed the lings seemed to be a bit slow for speedlings but too fast and had wings so they couldn't be without speed, just put it down to skewed perception at the time though and didn't think anything of it.
Wow I just assumed this was a mistake when I first read about it, but it seems that I was wrong! Cannot believe this happened in such a high caliber match and wasn't noticed.
I think most people, if they noticed it, probably wrote it off in their head as "ahh, I'm tired and had a cup of coffee too much probably, just my eyes fucking with me".
This is huge! No wonder parting had such a miraculous hold in that game, when life should have been able to kill him easy. Those magical ff are more explainable now. Big diff in series as life would have won that on faster speed and is 21-0 in series when he wins the first game. Poor life got screwed by gom's mistake.
Actually things did feel really strange during that game, but I thought it was just the extreme hype. I too was hyped to an insane level during the matches. It's weird, but definitely well within the realm of possibilities, as someone above me pointed out, if everyone thought "someone else will point it out if something is truly wrong", then stuff like this can happen.
Even with the evidence, it's so far out it's still hard to accept as fact. Also it's kinda of a big deal, hmm, really affects things a lot.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
Hope it doesnt happen again, but a nice catch :p Weird they wouldnt notice it... They must really have had their minds on something else not to notice!!
Is there a way to make a map require faster settings? If so, every tournament should have this as a requirement with their map pool. These kind of mistakes just shouldn't be accepted if it's true.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
I like how OP preemptively provides direct evidence and yet people are so accustomed to fallaciously applying Argument from Authority that they boldly state he is incorrect. I bet life would be easier if my brain worked that way.
Naw... originally there was no evidence in the OP whatsoever. With that evidence it is obvious that he is correct, but with no evidence this is a perfectly valid initial response.
even without evidence, anyone with half a brain could have confirmed it for themselves
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
Do you not understand how the game speed settings work? A single game speed is set in the game lobby before it starts and the speed cannot be changed in game.
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
Do you not understand how the game speed settings work? A single game speed is set in the game lobby before it starts and the speed cannot be changed in game.
Seems to me you're the one that doesn't understand it?
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
It was never changed back. I'm too lazy to do some graphs but I compared it with another VOD (started watching at the same game time). The difference between the times kept increasing.
I have a feeling both noticed it and both players chose not to report it. I've never been in a game that was slower and did not notice. I have however spectated games and not been able to notice, especially if they're at a high framerate. But... Playing a game and not noticing sounds so bizarre to me. It's possible with adrenaline and anxiety for the match... but right after playing a game at normal speeds?
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
The overall graph showed a multiplier of 1.205, which was below 1.21, the actual "fast" multiplier.
So no, it was not changed back, or the value should have been closer to 1.3, the "fastest" multiplier.
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
Do you not understand how the game speed settings work? A single game speed is set in the game lobby before it starts and the speed cannot be changed in game.
Seems to me you're the one that doesn't understand it?
Is it changeable in game? Maybe I've just been playing maps with the speed locked.
On May 18 2013 04:17 ohampatu wrote: Sure it was on Fast from that point forward?
Looking at the evidence from me, it looks like it got switched to Fast, but looks like an observer switched it back to Faster after a few moments.
I know your evidence verifies the game time goes off, but have you watched the timer the whole game to see if it remained that way? We dont see observer chat or anything, for all we know it got switched (which should have showed up as an alert) and then possibly got switched back, which through off the time, but wouldn't neccesarilly have an affect on the defense because the game may have been at faster again at that point.
The reason nobody may have said anything may have been because: a: it didn't go till fast untill after the first minute, and b. it may have only been at fast for a small portion of time
Nobody seems to have brought up that when game speed is changed their is an alert, so it would have been caught.
TLDR: I can see evidence showing the game was changed, but can you provide evidence that it wasn't caught by an observer and changed back before the game was over?
The overall graph showed a multiplier of 1.205, which was below 1.21, the actual "fast" multiplier.
So no, it was not changed back, or the value should have been closer to 1.3, the "fastest" multiplier.
For some reason the graph didn't display properly untill I opened it in a new tab, some of the points seemed steeper. I also wasn't quite sure the graph included the entire game, but just a portion with a few points for the point of mathsake.
Welp, pretty conclusive. Sucks to be Life. I can only imagine Adrenaline with the fact that it didn't start until almost 2 minutes in made it hard to see. Once youve got your infrastructure, you can't catch the speed being off as easily as you can while your starting it. If it had been that way from the start I think it would have been caught. Oh wells. Good find OP.
On May 18 2013 04:35 derpface wrote: Should be a regame then IMO. Protoss have the clear advantage at fast speed.
You can't regame in hindsight. And it actually gave no advantage to either player up until the point that Life chose to all-in. They were both affected equally untill he chose to attach, and when he did, that is when Parting had a slight advantage. Without either player noticeing and speaking up then, nothing can be done. If anything, they both noticed it and chose to play, although i can see how they couldn't with adrenaline and it being toggled late. Parting didn't force Life to use a terrible strategy in that situation
Reminds me of ByuN NesTea. I don't think they'll change the outcome but GOM will likely acknowledge the issue in a press release. Don't hold players up to superhuman standards either, there are so many more emotions and thoughts that they're having especially that late in a series than the speed in game being overlooked by the host.
I mean fuck, I live cast a TvZ at one of the big 3 foreign events being played on location that was hosted on an old map that was patched before the queen buff. This was about 5-6 months after the patch went live. Terran opened hellions too. If anyone aside from me and my cocaster noticed, they never said anything. Both players were and still are solid; top 3 foreigners race-wise, not talking about scrubs.
Such a nice find! Obviously not the biggest of deals, but something worth noting. I wonder if Gom knew/knows this by now. Surely the Korean community would have mentioned something, right?
On May 18 2013 04:48 Blargh wrote: Such a nice find! Obviously not the biggest of deals, but something worth noting. I wonder if Gom knew/knows this by now. Surely the Korean community would have mentioned something, right?
It didn't happen untill like a 1:05 in. Us viwers dont watch the probe line too often after the infrastructure starts to go down, and watching a single worker/unit doesn't make it noticeable. Plus it was a short game, no real 'fast' units were made, slow lings and sentries are all ready pretty slow.
If this had been from the beginning of the game on then im sure they would have noticed it. But adrenaline mixed with protoss/zerg early game relieing on slow units.....and the fact that it was toggled to fast after the game started, probably made it difficult.
edit: or its possibly one or even both of them noticed it, and decided to play it out anyway for shits, thinking it could help them in some way, or wouldn't matter at all and didn't need mentioning.
so many possibilities, but in the end no fault really on anybody imo, accidents happen, GOM has been mostly impeccable in Code S, a slight mistake that might not even have affected the outcome of the group/series isn't too big of a blemish. People making this out like its the end of the world should realize that unless Parting/Life make it out to be absolutely huge, they should treat it as the same. Makes me laugh when the community makes some things such a huge deal when the players are generallyl like 'meh' and dont care.
Dude, I just went back and rewatched it and it is SO OBVIOUS, once it has been pointed out, but I too did not notice live. The fact that no one noticed is perhaps the most unbelievable thing in the history of SC2.
On May 18 2013 04:48 Blargh wrote: Such a nice find! Obviously not the biggest of deals, but something worth noting. I wonder if Gom knew/knows this by now. Surely the Korean community would have mentioned something, right?
It didn't happen untill like a 1:05 in. Us viwers dont watch the probe line too often after the infrastructure starts to go down, and watching a single worker/unit doesn't make it noticeable. Plus it was a short game, no real 'fast' units were made, slow lings and sentries are all ready pretty slow.
Life opened 10pool with gas and went mass speedlings. The fastest unit in the game.
Biggest GSL scandal since ByuN vs NesTea on metropolis!!! D:!!! Sucks that it happened but I guess there's nothing that can be done about it at this point. Hopefully it won't happen again.
On May 18 2013 04:48 Blargh wrote: Such a nice find! Obviously not the biggest of deals, but something worth noting. I wonder if Gom knew/knows this by now. Surely the Korean community would have mentioned something, right?
It didn't happen untill like a 1:05 in. Us viwers dont watch the probe line too often after the infrastructure starts to go down, and watching a single worker/unit doesn't make it noticeable. Plus it was a short game, no real 'fast' units were made, slow lings and sentries are all ready pretty slow.
Life opened 10pool with gas and went mass speedlings. The fastest unit in the game.
*Both fastest AND second fastest depending on creep!
People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
On May 18 2013 04:56 Shellshock1122 wrote: Biggest GSL scandal since ByuN vs NesTea on metropolis!!! D:!!! Sucks that it happened but I guess there's nothing that can be done about it at this point. Hopefully it won't happen again.
ahh my bad, ive only gone off of what was said in this thread
i thought it was a slow ling all-in, I stand corrected
still, every other point stands, w hich would account for possibly not noticeing, although that does lower the chances slightly more
Its almost unbelievable that Parting and Life would not notice..... but i guess nerves can account for that.
This should be top new, its the biggest F'up in GSL history without a doubt.... as it accounts for Life being out. Given that Life is the IT player right now and that this was THE deciding match in the group of death.
I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
This is enormous. A slower game speed by far benefits a Protoss 100x more due to the general lack of micro-usefulness in Zerg units (and obviously forcefields are much easier to pull off). Protoss also generally has to multitask less (this is a failure of the Protoss race, not a knock on Toss players). I'm surprised this could happen, but I'm shocked that both Parting and Life, two players who are so in tune with everything in the game, could not notice this.
On May 18 2013 05:01 Wolfler wrote: People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
1. If the players dont make it to be a big deal, no matter what we as a community think, then its not a big deal.
2. You all keep bringinup up that 22-0 about him winning his first game like thats some kind of good defence. It doesn't matter his particular stats. It only affected one game in the series if it even did that, he still had a chance to win the series without any further mishaps. Just because he is more inconsistent if he loses the first map doesn't mean anything. Thats him, we hsould be looking at this mishap as if it was Player X vs Player Z, not Life vs Parting. The mishap is even larger since its so late in Code S, which compounds it more, but you cant use the players themselves or the stats themselves to make this mishap seem bigger than it was.
3. We aren't saying its not a big deal, were saying its not the end of the world.
I like Life better than Parting, but that doesn't stop me from looking at it objectively without bias towards either one. You can't blame this one mishap on him not making it out of the group of death, there were other games he could have won, and its not even 100 percent for sure that this cost him the game. For all we know he noticed the speed was off because he was the only person using a fast unit, and decided that he wasn't going to say anything thinking it would somehow help him. We dont know, we just simply dont know enough to say that.
edit: It was a very big deal, im sad it happened, but no need for a complete shitstorm about it. Just now GOM needs to be sure they watch this even more. Im still confused as to how nobody noticed when the game cleary gives an alert, and so many observers watching mean somebody had to have seen that alert.
On May 18 2013 05:08 hXc_ wrote: I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
He could (especially if he is not recompensed) but that would end his career. There are reasons why no player has decided to fight a legal battle with tournament organizer in SC2.
On May 18 2013 05:08 hXc_ wrote: I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
In my opinion, when nothing was done the last time there was a game/map mistake in ByuN vs Nestea, there is nothing that is going to be done about this. They will probably just be more cautious in the future.
On May 18 2013 05:08 hXc_ wrote: I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
He could (especially if he is not recompensed) but that would end his career. There are reasons why no player has decided to fight a legal battle with tournament organizer in SC2.
Player yes, I agree. But team? Organisation (like KeSPA)? They have much more, welll not power, but... image? I don't know how to call it. Presence?
On May 18 2013 05:08 hXc_ wrote: I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
He probably could but never ever would, it's not big enough a deal
On May 18 2013 05:08 hXc_ wrote: I wonder if Life could go full lawyer on this, I mean, the rules of the tournament state that all game are to be played on faster speed (or am I wrong? I can't find tournament rules for GSL, but that's how it was on couple of other tournaments I read rules for).
Imagine if this happened in KeSPA league, or just happened to a KeSPA player, shit would hit the fan hard
He could (especially if he is not recompensed) but that would end his career. There are reasons why no player has decided to fight a legal battle with tournament organizer in SC2.
Player yes, I agree. But team? Organisation (like KeSPA)? They have much more, welll not power, but... image? I don't know how to call it. Presence?
KeSPA maybe. But after the head-bashing Blizzard did in Korea even that is doubtful. Sadly for Life he happens to play for an eSF team and his only option is to take whatever apology he is offered.
People need to stop saying Life could do anything. Its far too late for it to matter now. The only way he could do anything is if he had mentioned it before the game was over, or very quickly after it was.
And second, Life went 1-2 in that group. 1 game in a single series did not affect the entire group. Im sorry that our favorite player didn't make it, but we need to be slightly more realistic. Life should have played better in that group if he wanted to win. I just can't believe how overwhelming the life fans are trying to somehow reverse this or get a regame or even how they think this mistake was what costed life the entire group.
also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Being allowed more time to micro certain units and in certain situations there is an advantage even though both players experience the game game speed. If I see your attack coming, and it comes at me even slower it gives me that bit of extra time to micro my zealots into a more favorable position which will make them many times more effective than if they got caught out further from your base.
OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
This has already been discussed in the thread and it has been pointed out that if it had something to do with the VOD the audio should go out of sync or distorted.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Sounds to me like you're the one that needs to move on.
On May 18 2013 05:47 F u r u y a wrote: PartinG noticed it.
But chose to say nothing.
^^
Thats a bold accusation that can't be proved. For all we know both noticed it, and both chose to play it out thinking it would help them or wouldn't matter at all.Parting may have noticed it like you said, but if any single person noticed it between the two Id wager it was Life. he was the only person using units thats its easily noticeable on. Not easy to tell once you get a handfull of probes (the toggle was a minute in, so neither had small amounts of workers when it happened) and sentrys are already slow. Life should have immediately noticed with speedlings. Cant fault either of them though because we dont know which of the situations occured, and really even if we did we still can only fault the admins.
My issue is that when its changed a game alert takes place. Out of that many people in the game (admin, observer, caster_ how in the hell did not a single one see that and say a single thing in boserver chat to notify them. That it the huge problem imo.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Sounds to me like you're the one that needs to move on.[/QUOTE]
not sure how you come to that, considering I wanted him to win as much as the rest. But your saying I need to move on when their are about 100 posts+ from different people all clamoring for the impossible because their favorite player lost? Good judgement. Ive done nothing but try to have legit conversations with people about the OP and etc, no need to start making personal judgements for no reason when I haven't really.
On May 18 2013 05:01 Wolfler wrote: People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
1. If the players dont make it to be a big deal, no matter what we as a community think, then its not a big deal.
2. You all keep bringinup up that 22-0 about him winning his first game like thats some kind of good defence. It doesn't matter his particular stats. It only affected one game in the series if it even did that, he still had a chance to win the series without any further mishaps. Just because he is more inconsistent if he loses the first map doesn't mean anything. Thats him, we hsould be looking at this mishap as if it was Player X vs Player Z, not Life vs Parting. The mishap is even larger since its so late in Code S, which compounds it more, but you cant use the players themselves or the stats themselves to make this mishap seem bigger than it was.
3. We aren't saying its not a big deal, were saying its not the end of the world.
I like Life better than Parting, but that doesn't stop me from looking at it objectively without bias towards either one. You can't blame this one mishap on him not making it out of the group of death, there were other games he could have won, and its not even 100 percent for sure that this cost him the game. For all we know he noticed the speed was off because he was the only person using a fast unit, and decided that he wasn't going to say anything thinking it would somehow help him. We dont know, we just simply dont know enough to say that.
edit: It was a very big deal, im sad it happened, but no need for a complete shitstorm about it. Just now GOM needs to be sure they watch this even more. Im still confused as to how nobody noticed when the game cleary gives an alert, and so many observers watching mean somebody had to have seen that alert.
How doesn't matter his particular stats? lol, he was the one playing the game. Well, you admitted it was a big deal, and indeed it was. And how you even think he noticed the speed and that it would help him? Who benefits from it are protoss players, having more time to forcefield and react to zerg's agression.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Look, I'm not one of those saying life should lawyer up because the series is over and nothing can be done about it. However, you're equally delusional as them saying that change had no effect on the series, when it's clearly a huge difference and probably cost life the series.
Life and Parting should have said something, I very much doubt that the players themselves did not notice game speed was slower than usual. Hosting the wrong game speed happens all the time, every tournament it's up to the players to mention it.
In a perfect world, nobody hosts a game on the wrong game speed. But the world isn't perfect, and a re-host is a simple solution but it will not happen if they players keeps it to themselves.
On May 18 2013 05:01 Wolfler wrote: People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
1. If the players dont make it to be a big deal, no matter what we as a community think, then its not a big deal.
2. You all keep bringinup up that 22-0 about him winning his first game like thats some kind of good defence. It doesn't matter his particular stats. It only affected one game in the series if it even did that, he still had a chance to win the series without any further mishaps. Just because he is more inconsistent if he loses the first map doesn't mean anything. Thats him, we hsould be looking at this mishap as if it was Player X vs Player Z, not Life vs Parting. The mishap is even larger since its so late in Code S, which compounds it more, but you cant use the players themselves or the stats themselves to make this mishap seem bigger than it was.
3. We aren't saying its not a big deal, were saying its not the end of the world.
I like Life better than Parting, but that doesn't stop me from looking at it objectively without bias towards either one. You can't blame this one mishap on him not making it out of the group of death, there were other games he could have won, and its not even 100 percent for sure that this cost him the game. For all we know he noticed the speed was off because he was the only person using a fast unit, and decided that he wasn't going to say anything thinking it would somehow help him. We dont know, we just simply dont know enough to say that.
edit: It was a very big deal, im sad it happened, but no need for a complete shitstorm about it. Just now GOM needs to be sure they watch this even more. Im still confused as to how nobody noticed when the game cleary gives an alert, and so many observers watching mean somebody had to have seen that alert.
How doesn't matter his particular stats? lol, he was the one playing the game. Well, you admitted it was a big deal, and indeed it was.
What I mean by stats is: When deciding what should be done, or how big the mishap is, or how the mishap particularly affected the series; that we should not take the players themselves into account. We should take into account that this was Code S RO16, but we should view this mishap as if it happened to any other of the Code S round of 16 groups. Life being the God of winning series when he wins the first game should affect how big this mishap is. That would be favoritism to God, which may be good because he is God, but in terms of being fair and objective in just how big a deal this is, we shouldn't do it. Neutral standpoint so to say.
I do wish we could just play the whole group over again, just for good measures, but llike alot of others standpoint: thats because i love Life. Alas.
@Fik. I think they did, or at least one of them did. And i think they didn't say anything because they thought they would have an advantage. with that particular speed. Now which or the two or if it was both, we'll never know :/
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened severa l time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
game speed is only an advantage to parting in the case of a speedling all in. You'd have to know what build Life was planning if you were going to matchfix it with gamespeed.
It leans prett heavily in favor on the side for a protoss. You get more reaction time for basically every little attack zerg can throw at you, perfect spell casts etc. In a micro vs micro situation the protoss should come out on top on slower speeds the vast majority of the time.
I have beef with this statement. All micro for all races are better at slower speeds. Some things that aren't even tried now would be possible (and make the game better IMO) on a slower speed for all races. It would obviously take a lot of playing to see where the balance would fall for each, but I would imagine it'd be very close to where it is now.
A few specific to Zerg I will mention:
- Roach burrow movement micro would be easier. - Perfect ling splits against things like widowmines - easier. - Ling and roach micro against colossi rays - easier. Things like sending in one roach first to trigger colossi attacks then moving in with army. Or changing formation to avoid straight line thermal lance rays. - Zergling pull back micro against zealots, cannons, nexus cannon. (done perfectly early game you would never lose a ling unless trapped by a FF or surrounded by probes) - Muta splitting vs storms and widow mines. - Spotting widow mines, pulling back before detonation. - Swarmhost burrow-> spawn locusts-> unburrow movements - easier.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
What ridiculousness.
GOM is responsible for proper playing conditions, that's on their end of the deal, not the players. That includes proper game speed. If this was a frequent issue and it could be established that GOM were irresponsible game hosts the players would have every right to file formal complaints and possibly receive legal compensation.
Stop putting the responsibility on the players. This is GOM's fault.
We're NOT simply moving on. GOM is now obligated to double-check their routines in order to prevent this kind of issue in the future.
What is ridiculous about it. We are at the RO4 pretty much. What do you possibly think could happen at this point in time, even if Life went 'full lawyer'. Nothing but an apology, which I hope they give. I didnt blame the players, I blamed the admins originally. And blame everyone who noticed and didn't say anything (which may be quite a few people, even one or both of the players, we'll never know). Thats logical, not ridiculous, I blame all who are responsible.
This isn't a frequent issue. It's happened what, twice in the history of Starcraft 2? Stop over exaggerating, your calling me ridiculous huh?
I never said players couldn't file complaints. I clearly said, that its far to late for any action apart from an apology to happen, and for GOM to be better, which is what you said. You agree with me but yell unintelligible things? I never put the blame on them, although I include them in the group of people who may have noticed and possibly didn't say anything. i blamed the admin and the observers who didn't pay attention to the alert. I have stated numerous times that the fault lies on every single person ingame in obsver chat who missed that. I never blamed the players, although they may need some.
Dont move on then. I am a Life fan. I am, and i'm sure Life is as well. Have fun brooding over a small mishap that had absolutely no influence over the outcome of the group. So much anger, and you end with 'just double check', which I originally said in the post you quoted, lol.
Its a big dead. it suchs. We can't change it. Life can't change it. Hope he wins the next 5 GSL's in spite of the observers who never said anything
Life bet Parting he could beat him on a slower speed on any of the maps that come up. They agreed and the coaches agreed and GOM (game host, casters, etc.) agrees behind the scenes. They also agree if someone else makes a stink about it during the game, they'll just resume on the usual speed. An extra $20 grand on the line between the contestants.
Parting picks that map for the slower b/c it's bad for Protoss and figures it'll be a coinflip anyway. GOM slows it down only after the start because it's harder to notice. Life mindgames him, and does a mass ling rush on a map that usually sees a 2 base Protoss all-in. Parting wins because it isn't yet proven (but soon will be) that ling rushes aren't strong enough if a mothershipcore is out, GG. In GSTL GOM stages an "accidental" speed change that gets "noticed" to throw everybody not in the know (the other players) off the scent, but it backfires.
On May 18 2013 06:09 Blacklizard wrote: What if the conspiracy goes like this-
Life bet Parting he could beat him on a slower speed on any of the maps that come up. They agreed and the coaches agreed and GOM (game host, casters, etc.) agrees behind the scenes. They also agree if someone else makes a stink about it during the game, they'll just resume on the usual speed. An extra $20 grand on the line between the contestants.
Parting picks that map for the slower b/c it's bad for Protoss and figures it'll be a coinflip anyway. GOM slows it down only after the start because it's harder to notice. Life mindgames him, and does a mass ling rush on a map that usually sees a 2 base Protoss all-in. Parting wins because it isn't yet proven (but soon will be) that ling rushes aren't strong enough if a mothershipcore is out, GG. In GSTL GOM stages an "accidental" speed change that gets "noticed" to throw everybody not in the know (the other players) off the scent, but it backfires.
=]
Nailed it. There had to more. I knew somebody would dig deeper. Case Closed. Bet Life is missing that 20k. Now we know why Parting didn't try and win the rest of the GSL. He was taking a bath in his bills.
On May 18 2013 02:22 llIH wrote: Not a big problem. But it is interesting that GOM didn't notice. Or at least that no one did anything about it! :D
Are you kidding me? This is a very big deal. A slower overall game speed is advantageous for the player who is playing passively and responding to the opponent, in this case: parting. An aggressive player relies on his opponent to be taken by surprise and respond slowly in effect so an overall slow speed is bad for whoever tries to initiate engagements. It's also very unsettling for the player who has a build prepared. They're going to feel "off" and slow throughout the game without knowing why even if his build order is right.
I disagree in part. Aggressiveness with better micro would be better aggressiveness. Life could have baited out FFs better, avoided losing as many lings, etc.
Baneling attacks on wallins would be better. You could avoid ever having banes stuck behind lings much easier. But then it'd be easier to target banes.
It very much still depends on who has better micro. Sure some things would be different, but it would encourage even more precision, and the pros with that precision would shine.
EDIT: Let's also not forget that the aggressor has a harder time with macro. Larva injects are quite easier on slower speeds.
On May 18 2013 06:09 Blacklizard wrote: What if the conspiracy goes like this-
Life bet Parting he could beat him on a slower speed on any of the maps that come up. They agreed and the coaches agreed and GOM (game host, casters, etc.) agrees behind the scenes. They also agree if someone else makes a stink about it during the game, they'll just resume on the usual speed. An extra $20 grand on the line between the contestants.
Parting picks that map for the slower b/c it's bad for Protoss and figures it'll be a coinflip anyway. GOM slows it down only after the start because it's harder to notice. Life mindgames him, and does a mass ling rush on a map that usually sees a 2 base Protoss all-in. Parting wins because it isn't yet proven (but soon will be) that ling rushes aren't strong enough if a mothershipcore is out, GG. In GSTL GOM stages an "accidental" speed change that gets "noticed" to throw everybody not in the know (the other players) off the scent, but it backfires.
On May 18 2013 06:09 Blacklizard wrote: What if the conspiracy goes like this-
Life bet Parting he could beat him on a slower speed on any of the maps that come up. They agreed and the coaches agreed and GOM (game host, casters, etc.) agrees behind the scenes. They also agree if someone else makes a stink about it during the game, they'll just resume on the usual speed. An extra $20 grand on the line between the contestants.
Parting picks that map for the slower b/c it's bad for Protoss and figures it'll be a coinflip anyway. GOM slows it down only after the start because it's harder to notice. Life mindgames him, and does a mass ling rush on a map that usually sees a 2 base Protoss all-in. Parting wins because it isn't yet proven (but soon will be) that ling rushes aren't strong enough if a mothershipcore is out, GG. In GSTL GOM stages an "accidental" speed change that gets "noticed" to throw everybody not in the know (the other players) off the scent, but it backfires.
=]
this is some tinfoil hat shit right here.
Just to be clear, I am joking about the conspiracy.
On a serious note, I also would like to say that the game speed absolutely changes the way the game flow feels and is played out. It affected both players to be sure. Nobody can say who it affected more, but it sucks that anybody had to play in those conditions if they were unexpected... but then that brings me to the conspiracy. Maybe I'm not joking about it.
This is really painful because Life is one of my favourite players and Life's lings are just better than everyone else's lings... Parting's hold was just too good to be true... and I guess it was...
... I don't know what GSL can do to make this right. But I hope they at least release a statement.
Who is saying that slower is good to the agressive player is probably wrong... If there were 2 perfect players, one agressive and other defensive, who was going to win? Probably the defensive player. So the slower the game is, more perfectly you can play, and if you play perfectly, its better be in a defensive position. Life's agression makes his oponnents fall apart.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
GSL doesn't use GameHeart. The screenshot you posted isn't of GameHeart, it is of a Blizzard UI mod which is different.
And to be perfectly honest it is hard enough to get tournaments to use GameHeart without these kinds of rumors floating around so if you could amend the OP to make it clear that whatever this problem is it has nothing to do with GameHeart since GameHeart wasn't even used I would appreciate it.
GameHeart by default sets the game speed to 'faster' and does not even give you the option to change it so such a thing should never happen with GH.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
yeah. I need a story about how this could happen.
There's video proof of this posted before in the thread. The weird thing is that it happened during Life's introduction when the camera went off the game, so there might be some option in the custom map they're using that allows this or something.
If you look at the workers mining in the first minute of the game, everything looks completely fine. Skip another minute later after all the introductions, and all the workers are slowed down a bit. It was at a point in the game where the players weren't focusing only on their workers so it's probably harder to notice then.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
yeah. I need a story about how this could happen.
There's video proof of this posted before in the thread. The weird thing is that it happened during Life's introduction when the camera went off the game, so there might be some option in the custom map they're using that allows this or something.
If you look at the workers mining in the first minute of the game, everything looks completely fine. Skip another minute later after all the introductions, and all the workers are slowed down a bit. It was at a point in the game where the players weren't focusing only on their workers so it's probably harder to notice then.
Its been stated multiple times in the thread already. Observers can press - or + to change speed at ANY time.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
yeah. I need a story about how this could happen.
There's video proof of this posted before in the thread. The weird thing is that it happened during Life's introduction when the camera went off the game, so there might be some option in the custom map they're using that allows this or something.
If you look at the workers mining in the first minute of the game, everything looks completely fine. Skip another minute later after all the introductions, and all the workers are slowed down a bit. It was at a point in the game where the players weren't focusing only on their workers so it's probably harder to notice then.
Its been stated multiple times in the thread already. Observers can press - or + to change speed at ANY time.
For those claiming that it happened by accident due to Legend/Heavendom zooming it/out I question why did the speed change happen when the camera was not showing the game (and thus there would be no need to zoom in/out)? Very peculiar, as there is a text message that appears in game anytime the game speed is changed. Odd that the speed would change in the few seconds that the camera is not showing the game.
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
It really is... parting barely held on with some great micro... slower game will always help the person who needs to micro more...that being parting at this point.............
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
It really is... parting barely held on with some great micro... slower game will always help the person who needs to micro more...that being parting at this point.............
It also helps life cause he can more easily react with his lings to probe movements. just saying
Lol, I can't believe that people are saying that this is such a massive problem for the outcome of that game after watching Parting's control (particularly his FFs) the very next game...
It also blows my mind that people are calling for a replay of the match at this point... lol
Wow. In the game of StarCraft, even a speed change will change the outcome of the match. That's how volatile it is. That's weird how the game continued like that. Surely the players would have noticed something was off. They spend months practicing so one would assume they know about how long it takes, in real life, for things to happen.
On May 18 2013 07:48 Brett wrote: Lol, I can't believe that people are saying that this is such a massive problem for the outcome of that game after watching Parting's control (particularly his FFs) the very next game...
It also blows my mind that people are calling for a replay of the match at this point... lol
Yeah you can't have a re-game when Parting has already been eliminated in the Ro8, unless they do a special exemption where Life gets to play Parting for the WCS spot(which he would have from beating him), but even then at this point we are talking about 1 game in a Bo3 and this is unfair to Parting, sorry.
A result would be a simple acknowledgement from GOM that this mistake is made and will be paid more attention to avoid in the future, everyone stay calm.
At this point when GSL reached the Ro4, it is kind of late for re-games as it would be unfair for everyone at this stage, particularly for PartinG and Soulkey. I suppose no one really noticed the difference because of the adrenaline and stress of the moment, but I'm surprised neither Life or PartinG noticed the minute difference, especially at the professional level. This should be handled like the NesTea vs ByuN case, where GOM should apologize to Life for the mistake.
The most surprising thing here is how the players didn't notice (or didn't say anything). Anyone who plays at that level and that often can pretty much play the first 3 minutes of the game perfectly without even thinking about it and you would think they would definitely feel that something was off very early on.
On May 18 2013 09:39 Uhh Negative wrote: The most surprising thing here is how the players didn't notice (or didn't say anything). Anyone who plays at that level and that often can pretty much play the first 3 minutes of the game perfectly without even thinking about it and you would think they would definitely feel that something was off very early on.
Jupp they play perfectly without thinking and their orientation points are all game related, so a noob would probably notice these things earlier if they are changed midway. But change the build time of barracks for 5 seconds and they will notice really fast.
Wonder why everyone wants a statement. It will just be a form of "wooops sorry" anyway.
On May 18 2013 07:48 Brett wrote: Lol, I can't believe that people are saying that this is such a massive problem for the outcome of that game after watching Parting's control (particularly his FFs) the very next game...
It also blows my mind that people are calling for a replay of the match at this point... lol
literally no one called for a replay
Umm...
Edit: Here's just one random example from the thread
Should be a regame then IMO. Protoss have the clear advantage at fast speed
I'll assume you misinterpreted replay as the game file, rather than went full retard and called me out on something without reading the thread.
On May 18 2013 10:36 sharkie wrote: how could no one notice lol Even I notice difference between fast and fastest when I play..
That's the thing. Usually the casters spot it right away and pause the game to re-host it. It's happened in so many tournaments that I find it really, really strange for this to happen. O_O
On May 18 2013 02:47 nohole wrote: Yeah Partings defense was to good, Life should have won that game and possibly the series. That's depressing for zerg fans, as Life is one of the top players in the world.
I'm so sad to read that Really we're saying that somebody's play obviously was "too good"? Were we not looking for that kind of play in the death group? I can understand where those comments are coming from, but it's indeed a bit depressing. But for PartinG fans that is. Life could have decided not to all in with a build that doesn't require as much micro and reaction capability as PartinG's defense. He's the one who opted for the easy play, not PartinG's fault that it requires your opponent to screw up, and that he didn't :D
Apparently, the game speed was changed when one of the observers set referee (HeavenDom?) zoomed in during the introduction of Life and accidentally hit "-" on his keyboard. It's easy to spot the drones suddenly slowing down.
I don't see why this is an issue. It's almost unfathomable that neither of them noticed it. I don't even play that much anymore but I can tell within ~15 seconds of game start if the game speed isn't faster because everything just feels wrong, so there's no way that players who play hundreds more games than I do on a monthly basis wouldn't. If they didn't say anything to the officials, then obviously it didn't matter enough to either of them to ask for a regame.
On May 18 2013 10:36 sharkie wrote: how could no one notice lol Even I notice difference between fast and fastest when I play..
At the start of the game we do but if it changes in the middle of it? I would say that would be easier to miss....
It's still really obvious. After enough games you get really accustomed to the exact speed that units move and attack at as well as how fast certain things build. You notice right away when things aren't moving like they're supposed to.
On May 18 2013 12:02 forsooth wrote: I don't see why this is an issue. It's almost unfathomable that neither of them noticed it. I don't even play that much anymore but I can tell within ~15 seconds of game start if the game speed isn't faster because everything just feels wrong, so there's no way that players who play hundreds more games than I do on a monthly basis wouldn't. If they didn't say anything to the officials, then obviously it didn't matter enough to either of them to ask for a regame.
You say that but the 20k people or so watching the game didn't notice it either.
On May 18 2013 12:02 forsooth wrote: I don't see why this is an issue. It's almost unfathomable that neither of them noticed it. I don't even play that much anymore but I can tell within ~15 seconds of game start if the game speed isn't faster because everything just feels wrong, so there's no way that players who play hundreds more games than I do on a monthly basis wouldn't. If they didn't say anything to the officials, then obviously it didn't matter enough to either of them to ask for a regame.
It started off at the correct speed but changed around a minute in during Life's intro.
On May 18 2013 12:02 forsooth wrote: I don't see why this is an issue. It's almost unfathomable that neither of them noticed it. I don't even play that much anymore but I can tell within ~15 seconds of game start if the game speed isn't faster because everything just feels wrong, so there's no way that players who play hundreds more games than I do on a monthly basis wouldn't. If they didn't say anything to the officials, then obviously it didn't matter enough to either of them to ask for a regame.
You say that but the 20k people or so watching the game didn't notice it either.
On May 18 2013 12:02 forsooth wrote: I don't see why this is an issue. It's almost unfathomable that neither of them noticed it. I don't even play that much anymore but I can tell within ~15 seconds of game start if the game speed isn't faster because everything just feels wrong, so there's no way that players who play hundreds more games than I do on a monthly basis wouldn't. If they didn't say anything to the officials, then obviously it didn't matter enough to either of them to ask for a regame.
You say that but the 20k people or so watching the game didn't notice it either.
Big difference between observing and playing.
If anything, the observers should have caught it. When you're playing in a high-pressure situation, it's not uncommon for you to miss things like this. Actions and events may feel too fast or too slow depending on the situation. Other pros have already chimed in on this.
LiquidTLO1 197 points 8 hours ago
Time perception is incredibly dynamic. Sc2 feels faster or slower to me all the time. And in an adrenaline heavy situation like playing at GSL you don't really know how fast something is to other people. So you don't question the actual speed of the game.
ROOTCatZ 59 points 7 hours ago
To add to this, in a league like GSL the last thing you'd think of as a player is that the league wouldn't be on top of it. if this happens in a practice game, usually someone says "hey does this feel slow?" and then you go YEAH I THOUGHT SO TOO! I'd think they were just confident something like this couldn't happen and ignored their gut feeling
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
It really is... parting barely held on with some great micro... slower game will always help the person who needs to micro more...that being parting at this point.............
It also helps life cause he can more easily react with his lings to probe movements. just saying
Yeah, but Life lost a bunch of lings to FFs which are easier to do at a slower speed
On May 18 2013 00:32 StarVe wrote: Holy shit, can't believe this happened in GSL.
Reminds me of that one HomeStory Cup when Nightend and Moman played for like 15 minutes on fast and nobody noticed until White-Ra came by, took one look and recognized the mistake. :D
Poor Life, feels like that gave PartinG a big advantage in this particular situation.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Add in the fact that ZvP sucks and the winner is just going to get crushed by Innovation anyway and we get a match I would rather just skip all together.
Neither of Soulkey or sOs will get crushed by innovation... They might not win the BO7 but crushed is not something that would happen.
The massive TL;DR that we need to give to Blizzard is Have the "Lower Game Speed" keybind unbound by default!!
They can leave "Increase Game Speed" bound because that stops at the speed that the game is normally played on, so if they notice in the first few seconds, the referee can just bump up the speed without remaking. If the game is normal, that key will have no effect.
However, the "Lower Game Speed" keybind has got to go.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
u have 18k posts u should know better than asking him about something stupid
hahaha had to laugh :D this whole situation is hilarious to me. i guess the great wall of hongun still remains #1 hold
Parting did the same hold both games, and they weren't both messed up, presumably.
The 2 games were completely different. First one was an early pool, 2nd was a hatch first into speedling build that came at a much later timing. They were nothing alike.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Add in the fact that ZvP sucks and the winner is just going to get crushed by Innovation anyway and we get a match I would rather just skip all together.
Neither of Soulkey or sOs will get crushed by innovation... They might not win the BO7 but crushed is not something that would happen.
Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
See, you can't make definitive statements like that. RorO's play versus Innovation was very flawed. Game 2 very easily could have turned into a normal game if he'd made a few changes, and if he hadn't forgot units his extra units he would have won Game 3 outright.
If we compare RorO's play vs Innovation against sOs and Soulkey's recent vT matches, then they're both better than him.
With this game speed messup in such a highly publicized game being missed by almost all the community (huge props to Psz btw), I wonder how many times the game speed has been messed up historically. Have there been instances, say in a Code A game where it was played at a slower speed and no one noticed? Quick, someone, go check all the VODs.
On May 18 2013 13:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
Every player has their strengths, but RorO has a very passive and reactive playstyle which lets INnoVation control the game. Soulkey and sOs have both beaten INnoVation, I think you underestimate how good they really are.
Maybe the reason they did not notice is beacuse it started as Faster, you wouldn't normally notice if it slowed down to Fast when you start at Faster gamespeed?
On May 18 2013 13:30 BrokenMirage wrote: With this game speed messup in such a highly publicized game being missed by almost all the community (huge props to Psz btw), I wonder how many times the game speed has been messed up historically. Have there been instances, say in a Code A game where it was played at a slower speed and no one noticed? Quick, someone, go check all the VODs.
Since apparently it can be changed with a single keystroke by accident and apparently GSL places observers as refs, I wouldn't be surprised if this literally happened all the time.
Blizzard definitely needs to add an in-game message when game speed is changed and/or unbind that damn key by default.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Add in the fact that ZvP sucks and the winner is just going to get crushed by Innovation anyway and we get a match I would rather just skip all together.
Neither of Soulkey or sOs will get crushed by innovation... They might not win the BO7 but crushed is not something that would happen.
Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
Er, no just no. Roro's not even on the same level as SK in HOTS.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Add in the fact that ZvP sucks and the winner is just going to get crushed by Innovation anyway and we get a match I would rather just skip all together.
Neither of Soulkey or sOs will get crushed by innovation... They might not win the BO7 but crushed is not something that would happen.
Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
... RorO has not been playing well for the last several weeks man, lol. Him not advancing isn't a surprise to me after seeing him in PL recently. His play leaves something to be desired; whereas, SK and sHy are still putting on good shows.
On May 18 2013 13:30 BrokenMirage wrote: With this game speed messup in such a highly publicized game being missed by almost all the community (huge props to Psz btw), I wonder how many times the game speed has been messed up historically. Have there been instances, say in a Code A game where it was played at a slower speed and no one noticed? Quick, someone, go check all the VODs.
Since apparently it can be changed with a single keystroke by accident and apparently GSL places observers as refs, I wouldn't be surprised if this literally happened all the time.
Blizzard definitely needs to add an in-game message when game speed is changed and/or unbind that damn key by default.
I see it happening in several tournaments all the frigging time. Either wrong map, or they have the wrong settings on, but they usually notice it right away.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Pretty ignorant, not giving a shit about a world top 5 toss meeting a top 5 zerg (plus team kill). I'd rather have Kespa's playing and a heated LR than go back to the lower gameplay standards of the pre-kespa era with circle-jerk LR's.
On May 18 2013 13:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
Winning 1 GSL doesn't make Roro automatically better, Soulkey/sOs are exceptional. sOs could really give Innovation trouble with his unorthodox playstyle and hallucinate tech fakes.
Depends what you watch for I guess. If you watch enough of the kespa players they'll develop their own storylines/personalities then you can enjoy that stuff alongside top gameplay. To call them faceless koreans makes you just as bad as the kespa fanboys you get so irritated by.
On May 18 2013 07:48 Brett wrote: Lol, I can't believe that people are saying that this is such a massive problem for the outcome of that game after watching Parting's control (particularly his FFs) the very next game...
It also blows my mind that people are calling for a replay of the match at this point... lol
literally no one called for a replay
Umm...
Edit: Here's just one random example from the thread
Should be a regame then IMO. Protoss have the clear advantage at fast speed
I'll assume you misinterpreted replay as the game file, rather than went full retard and called me out on something without reading the thread.
No, I didn't misinterpret. My point was that practicially no-one called for a regame. You said "people" called for a regame, when the general opinion in this thread was nothing of the sort.
So what? I wasnt referring to the general opinion, I was clearly referring to the people suggesting that the game should be replayed.
You then said "literally no one" was suggesting that, when there were literally people doing so. Please dont pick arguments with me if you're going to invent and/or misrepresent my position so you can do so.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Pretty ignorant, not giving a shit about a world top 5 toss meeting a top 5 zerg (plus team kill). I'd rather have Kespa's playing and a heated LR than go back to the lower gameplay standards of the pre-kespa era with circle-jerk LR's.
On May 18 2013 13:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
Winning 1 GSL doesn't make Roro automatically better, Soulkey/sOs are exceptional. sOs could really give Innovation trouble with his unorthodox playstyle and hallucinate tech fakes.
That doesn't make me ignorant, that just means I know what I like. I have no clue how you count team kill as a bonus.
I don't mind the level of play not being the highest as long s I am watching players I can cheer for and entertaining games. For instance I would rather watch Stephano play a thousand series with Thorzain or DRG vs MMA than sOs vs Soulkey. It just isn't fun watching two faceless Koreans who I usually cheer against playing in my least favourite matchup (not to mention it is a teamkill).
If this makes me ignorant than I am fine with that.
There's the problem. You consider them faceless when in reality sHy and SK have been ripping people new holes in BW and SC2 for a long time now. There is a ton of content on both of them, but ignorance is bliss. Happy to see you make it in the PL thread the other day, but I think you need to tune into more PL to see what they'e all about because both players are very entertaining regardless of the game. Heck even SK's last lost was pretty epic because he had the entire map, but underestimated the power of sky toss.
You might not like it, but SoulKey has been the leader on Stars for a very, very long time. He's their franchise player even though a lot of the other boys are delivering too. Thus they have the strongest core in PL and are on their way to mopping the floor of the regular season in PL. Let's see how they do come playoffs.
Soulkey is pretty good... I knew Roro would get destroyed by a terran. I saw his game vs Flash in proleague... He was just REALLY BAD. People think Innovation will have an easy time, but Symbol CAN beat Innovation. I believe only 2 zergs can beat him: Life and Symbol. Life lost 0-2 to Innovation, but it was really sloppy play by him... I believe he can take out some maps of Innovation easily. I hope to see they play again. Oh, and I really think sOs can take some maps from Innovation too... The thing is that its impossible to beat Protoss players 100% of the time, even if you are far better. For example, Polt in NA: He has 100% winratio against zergs, almost 100% against Terrans (because of DemusliM) and less than 90% against Protoss players because of their all ins... It really doesn't matter how good you are, its really hard to predict and react/micro perfectly every game against them. But its bo7, its hard to imagine sOs beating Innovation 4 times in the finals.
On May 18 2013 23:16 Wolfler wrote: Soulkey is pretty good... I knew Roro would get destroyed by a terran. I saw his game vs Flash in proleague... He was just REALLY BAD. People think Innovation will have an easy time, but Symbol CAN beat Innovation. I believe only 2 zergs can beat him: Life and Symbol. Life lost 0-2 to Innovation, but it was really sloppy play by him... I believe he can take out some maps of Innovation easily. I hope to see they play again. Oh, and I really think sOs can take some maps from Innovation too... The thing is that its impossible to beat Protoss players 100% of the time, even if you are far better. For example, Polt in NA: He has 100% winratio against zergs, almost 100% against Terrans (because of DemusliM) and less than 90% against Protoss players because of their all ins... It really doesn't matter how good you are, its really hard to predict and react/micro perfectly every game against them. But its bo7, its hard to imagine sOs beating Innovation 4 times in the finals.
On May 18 2013 23:16 Wolfler wrote: Soulkey is pretty good... I knew Roro would get destroyed by a terran. I saw his game vs Flash in proleague... He was just REALLY BAD. People think Innovation will have an easy time, but Symbol CAN beat Innovation. I believe only 2 zergs can beat him: Life and Symbol. Life lost 0-2 to Innovation, but it was really sloppy play by him... I believe he can take out some maps of Innovation easily. I hope to see they play again. Oh, and I really think sOs can take some maps from Innovation too... The thing is that its impossible to beat Protoss players 100% of the time, even if you are far better. For example, Polt in NA: He has 100% winratio against zergs, almost 100% against Terrans (because of DemusliM) and less than 90% against Protoss players because of their all ins... It really doesn't matter how good you are, its really hard to predict and react/micro perfectly every game against them. But its bo7, its hard to imagine sOs beating Innovation 4 times in the finals.
Nah, nah and nah. I already went through this in the LR thread, picking apart Innovation's TvZ in the Life games and when he played against EffOrt in PL. There were only a handful of denotes in the Life game & he had good map presence when it came to getting one ling to trigger them compared to over a dozen by each player in the Innovation/EffOrt game. Now you tell me which one should be considered sloppy. lmao
RorO hasn't been playing up to snuff for the last couple of weeks. That is certain. He showed no promise of making it out of the Ro8. sHy and SK are in good position to beat Innovation. They've both beaten Innovation in the past. I see no reason why they couldn't do it again. This thread is getting too side-tracked. ~_~
Wow, this is kind of a big thing imo... things like this COULD lead to advantages for whoever has the burden of micro, like defending a ling pressure or doing zealot/MSC pressure.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
That remains to be seen. Judging from the other games in the series and on that day I'd say all the players delivered when it came to entertaining games. Remember when B.Net ladder was played on fast? God, those games would take forever and it slowed everything down to the point where you should be able to micro everything properly. I remember hating it because it was too God damn slow. Felt like you were playing against latency and when we use Hamachi or any other program that gives us 0 latency. God the game is so much faster and I like the reaction speed of my units more.
I think the players are more than capable of playing on the fastest setting.
On May 18 2013 23:16 Wolfler wrote: Soulkey is pretty good... I knew Roro would get destroyed by a terran. I saw his game vs Flash in proleague... He was just REALLY BAD. People think Innovation will have an easy time, but Symbol CAN beat Innovation. I believe only 2 zergs can beat him: Life and Symbol. Life lost 0-2 to Innovation, but it was really sloppy play by him... I believe he can take out some maps of Innovation easily. I hope to see they play again. Oh, and I really think sOs can take some maps from Innovation too... The thing is that its impossible to beat Protoss players 100% of the time, even if you are far better. For example, Polt in NA: He has 100% winratio against zergs, almost 100% against Terrans (because of DemusliM) and less than 90% against Protoss players because of their all ins... It really doesn't matter how good you are, its really hard to predict and react/micro perfectly every game against them. But its bo7, its hard to imagine sOs beating Innovation 4 times in the finals.
Soulkey might be really good, but has been crushed by Flash in Ro16, just dying to the endless bio mines pushed so I'm not sure he could win against Innovation.
On May 18 2013 23:16 Wolfler wrote: Soulkey is pretty good... I knew Roro would get destroyed by a terran. I saw his game vs Flash in proleague... He was just REALLY BAD. People think Innovation will have an easy time, but Symbol CAN beat Innovation. I believe only 2 zergs can beat him: Life and Symbol. Life lost 0-2 to Innovation, but it was really sloppy play by him... I believe he can take out some maps of Innovation easily. I hope to see they play again. Oh, and I really think sOs can take some maps from Innovation too... The thing is that its impossible to beat Protoss players 100% of the time, even if you are far better. For example, Polt in NA: He has 100% winratio against zergs, almost 100% against Terrans (because of DemusliM) and less than 90% against Protoss players because of their all ins... It really doesn't matter how good you are, its really hard to predict and react/micro perfectly every game against them. But its bo7, its hard to imagine sOs beating Innovation 4 times in the finals.
Soulkey might be really good, but has been crushed by Flash in Ro16, just dying to the endless bio mines pushed so I'm not sure he could win against Innovation.
SK's last win against Innovation was on April 29th in PL. ._. I wouldn't write either one of them off just yet. Regardless of sHy or SK advancing Innovation knows he's going to be in a dogfight regardless if he meets either one of them. He won't take them lightly.
On May 18 2013 11:09 Fionn wrote: They'd probably get a bigger audience redoing Life vs. Parting then the semifinals.
Agreed, I couldn't give two shits about sOs vs Soulkey.
May I ask why? sHy and SK are pretty frigging good and their games are normally entertaining.
They are good players but I am not very interested in Kespa players generally. One of my favourite things about watching a SC2 match is the LR thread and this is usually ruined for me when a Kespa player is playing. I don't want to generalize but a lot of Kespa fans are truly unbearable and downright insulting making it annoying to read the thread.
Pretty ignorant, not giving a shit about a world top 5 toss meeting a top 5 zerg (plus team kill). I'd rather have Kespa's playing and a heated LR than go back to the lower gameplay standards of the pre-kespa era with circle-jerk LR's.
On May 18 2013 13:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Roro got beat 3-0 and he is better then Soulkey and sOs.
Winning 1 GSL doesn't make Roro automatically better, Soulkey/sOs are exceptional. sOs could really give Innovation trouble with his unorthodox playstyle and hallucinate tech fakes.
That doesn't make me ignorant, that just means I know what I like. I have no clue how you count team kill as a bonus.
I don't mind the level of play not being the highest as long s I am watching players I can cheer for and entertaining games. For instance I would rather watch Stephano play a thousand series with Thorzain or DRG vs MMA than sOs vs Soulkey. It just isn't fun watching two faceless Koreans who I usually cheer against playing in my least favourite matchup (not to mention it is a teamkill).
If this makes me ignorant than I am fine with that.
The fact that you called them 'faceless Koreans' when they're not. Each of them is unique and has his own storyline to tell, but you chose to not follow or ignore it, that's your problem. The point is you could have both top gameplay and good story line to cheer for but chose not to. Yeah that's make you ignorant. But to each their own I guess, like someone said above, ignorant is bliss.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
That remains to be seen. Judging from the other games in the series and on that day I'd say all the players delivered when it came to entertaining games. Remember when B.Net ladder was played on fast? God, those games would take forever and it slowed everything down to the point where you should be able to micro everything properly. I remember hating it because it was too God damn slow. Felt like you were playing against latency and when we use Hamachi or any other program that gives us 0 latency. God the game is so much faster and I like the reaction speed of my units more.
I think the players are more than capable of playing on the fastest setting.
Well but then again you get some - I think valid - arguments about how battles end too quickly and if I think about it BW was quite slow compared to what we have now. Pacing is different, I guess, and also, no way I want to start a BW v SC2 thingie now. Just wanted to point out it felt like it was maybe a great game because of being played on fast. (I was a bit dissapointed with the group but free pizza and a full studio made me not care that much about the actual games to be honest.)
I seriously doubt GOM will respond to this no matter what the evidence says. All the community can hope for is that they shape the fuck up and make sure this doesn't happen again. It is pretty interesting though that no one really noticed the error, or came forward during/after the match. I'm sure there are a variety of psychological phenomenons involved.
On May 18 2013 07:48 Brett wrote: Lol, I can't believe that people are saying that this is such a massive problem for the outcome of that game after watching Parting's control (particularly his FFs) the very next game...
It also blows my mind that people are calling for a replay of the match at this point... lol
literally no one called for a replay
Umm...
Edit: Here's just one random example from the thread
Should be a regame then IMO. Protoss have the clear advantage at fast speed
I'll assume you misinterpreted replay as the game file, rather than went full retard and called me out on something without reading the thread.
No, I didn't misinterpret. My point was that practicially no-one called for a regame. You said "people" called for a regame, when the general opinion in this thread was nothing of the sort.
So what? I wasnt referring to the general opinion, I was clearly referring to the people suggesting that the game should be replayed.
You then said "literally no one" was suggesting that, when there were literally people doing so. Please dont pick arguments with me if you're going to invent and/or misrepresent my position so you can do so.
rather than went full retard and called me out on something without reading the thread.
It looks like you had to much faith in him and he, in fact, did go full retard.
On May 19 2013 00:06 Telcontar wrote: I seriously doubt GOM will respond to this no matter what the evidence says. All the community can hope for is that they shape the fuck up and make sure this doesn't happen again. It is pretty interesting though that no one really noticed the error, or came forward during/after the match. I'm sure there are a variety of psychological phenomenons involved.
They may have to respond if the Korean scene hears about this, but so far it appears that may not be the case. I'm sure GOM already knows about this thread, they do watch TL and reddit but they probably want to sweep it under the rug.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
That remains to be seen. Judging from the other games in the series and on that day I'd say all the players delivered when it came to entertaining games. Remember when B.Net ladder was played on fast? God, those games would take forever and it slowed everything down to the point where you should be able to micro everything properly. I remember hating it because it was too God damn slow. Felt like you were playing against latency and when we use Hamachi or any other program that gives us 0 latency. God the game is so much faster and I like the reaction speed of my units more.
I think the players are more than capable of playing on the fastest setting.
Well but then again you get some - I think valid - arguments about how battles end too quickly and if I think about it BW was quite slow compared to what we have now. Pacing is different, I guess, and also, no way I want to start a BW v SC2 thingie now. Just wanted to point out it felt like it was maybe a great game because of being played on fast. (I was a bit dissapointed with the group but free pizza and a full studio made me not care that much about the actual games to be honest.)
Where was your disappointment in those games? Please don't tell me it's because you wanted another player to go through. The vast majority enjoyed that group stage even if their boy lost.
As for the superiority complex that seems to be going around here when it comes to Bogus in series. There are a lot of things you can do to slow him down. One of the most important things to think about as a zerg is cutting off Bogus' reinforcements before they meet up with the main army. You have to slow him down using Savior-esque tactics.
Oh PVJ one more thing to think about with regards to game speed Mr. PVJ is how much longer the tournaments would have to run on such a speed when it comes to the production. We need the games to end fast to keep things moving regardless. Like I said before, normally the casters/production crew figure it out quite fast that they made a mistake when it comes to wrong maps and game speed. I guess one got by.
On May 19 2013 00:06 Telcontar wrote: I seriously doubt GOM will respond to this no matter what the evidence says. All the community can hope for is that they shape the fuck up and make sure this doesn't happen again. It is pretty interesting though that no one really noticed the error, or came forward during/after the match. I'm sure there are a variety of psychological phenomenons involved.
They may have to respond if the Korean scene hears about this, but so far it appears that may not be the case. I'm sure GOM already knows about this thread, they do watch TL and reddit but they probably want to sweep it under the rug.
That and it's obvious they fucked up but what can they say? "We fucked up, we won't do it again" well obviously they don't ever plan on doing it again and there won't be any regame so there's nothing left to discuss.
Mistakes happen, even on the highest level, and we move on.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
The main argument is that the game isn't as punishing so there is more room for mistakes. Not quite as 'easy' but it's much more forgiving then BW ever was so players with less execution can still play relatively high leveled.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
The main argument is that the game isn't as punishing so there is more room for mistakes. Not quite as 'easy' but it's much more forgiving then BW ever was so players with less execution can still play relatively high leveled.
I would argue that BW required you to be on point for long stretches of time but in this game you have to be on point in certain portions of time. Nevertheless, if you are not on point in those particular windows of time, the game is not forgiving.
Time for "Unofficial WCS Korea Champion" where we track Life's matches against the opponents in Parting's bracket to see if he would have won this season!
when do you think is the next time we'll see life vs soulkey, life vs sos, life vs symbol or life vs innovation?
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
The main argument is that the game isn't as punishing so there is more room for mistakes. Not quite as 'easy' but it's much more forgiving then BW ever was so players with less execution can still play relatively high leveled.
I would argue that BW required you to be on point for long stretches of time but in this game you have to be on point in certain portions of time. Nevertheless, if you are not on point in those particular windows of time, the game is not forgiving.
I wouldn't say that at all. In SC2 you have to be on point all the frigging time and track their army. SC2 is very unforgiving. One bad engagement and your screwed. As for slowing the game down. I've already touched based on the semantics and overall production. I don't think we can afford to make the games any slower than they actually are plus forcing players to make split decisions isn't a bad thing. It gets the adrenaline going.
Well in the end, if someone wants to do a true analytic comparison between the two games, I would love to see an action spending analysis. For example, take X number of actions, spend them and show me the game state before and after.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
The main argument is that the game isn't as punishing so there is more room for mistakes. Not quite as 'easy' but it's much more forgiving then BW ever was so players with less execution can still play relatively high leveled.
I'd argue that SC2 is less forgiving than Broodwar which is why some matchups often come down to 1 engagement and then it's gameover.
I don't see a reason for it. The breaking point for most pro's is a direct result of their poor scouting and I find it unlikely to improve with changing the game speed & their decision making processes. Case in point, PL results from last night follow + Show Spoiler +
(Flash losing to HerO and HerO losing to Wooki)
. It doesn't get any better than that and you know what? That's where most pro's end up losing their games. Spotting stuff too late & that's what happens with unit composition when you have a lot of hard counters or backdoors with regards to playing blind. That's why certain players don't do too well because they're too busy doing their own thing to realize their opponent is doing something else. You got to have eyes on it. Cannot say HerO didn't try to scout it last night because he really did, but + Show Spoiler +
Wooki
was right on top of it to stop him from getting that intel. It's a shame HerO didn't clue in because + Show Spoiler +
Wooki
was all over his army throughout the game and keeping HerO back in his base after HerO's initial pressure. HerO knew something was up and when you show 6 Colossus and you know you're leading that race. You have to figure your opponent is going to try and go for a hard counter when they have 5+ immortals in their unit composition.
On May 19 2013 02:47 StarStruck wrote: I don't see a reason for it. The breaking point for most pro's is a direct result of their poor scouting and I find it unlikely to improve with changing the game speed & their decision making processes. Case in point, PL results from last night follow + Show Spoiler +
(Flash losing to HerO and HerO losing to Wooki)
. It doesn't get any better than that and you know what? That's where most pro's end up losing their games. Spotting stuff too late & that's what happens with unit composition when you have a lot of hard counters or backdoors with regards to playing blind. That's why certain players don't do too well because they're too busy doing their own thing to realize their opponent is doing something else. You got to have eyes on it. Cannot say HerO didn't try to scout it last night because he really did, but + Show Spoiler +
Wooki
was right on top of it to stop him from getting that intel. It's a shame HerO didn't clue in because + Show Spoiler +
Wooki
was all over his army throughout the game and keeping HerO back in his base after HerO's initial pressure. HerO knew something was up and when you show 6 Colossus and you know you're leading that race. You have to figure your opponent is going to try and go for a hard counter when they have 5+ immortals in their unit composition.
Hi welcome to the thread. Thanks for reading. Everyone knows it starts out on faster speed, but changes to fast during the life intro. You can tell if you compare parting's probe speed in beginning, then after the life intro and see parting's probe speed then.
Hmm, I just checked that youtube link, and some guy has been uploading full games of all the GSL VODs on his youtube channel. I thought Gretech was on top of things like this.
So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
On May 19 2013 03:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
No, they played out the game at a slower speed than usual.
The game being played on fast instead of faster is not an unfair advantage for either side. Parting may have had an easier time to micro against the agression of Life, but at the same time, Life had an easier time microing against Parting's probes.
I skipped reading from page 5 on. Did we rule out the VODs have been partially processed at 0.95 speed? Someone could have accidentally hit a random hotkey while the VOD was being rendered o-o'
This is outrageous, how can the largest sc2 league in a world of 8billion people miss this? That the map was played on fast obviously had an impact on the players in some way and this should never ever happen again.
On May 19 2013 03:39 Raay wrote: This is outrageous, how can the largest sc2 league in a world of 8billion people miss this? That the map was played on fast obviously had an impact on the players in some way and this should never ever happen again.
This is quite strange - but honestly, even with their adrenaline kicking in, did the players really not notice this? The worker speed is SO much lower on fast, it's hard to miss.
Is it not possible the VOD speed is different than the speed the game was played on? Like, someone opened the replay, then recorded it on 95% speed by mistake?
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
It seems obvious that higher game speed doesn't automatically translate to higher skill cap. I mean, at a certain point battles would be over so quick that micro wouldn't even be possible. The problem is that in a lot of engagements one comp clearly has more opportunities for micro than the other, so lowering game speed can lower the skill cap for one race and increase it for another.
On May 19 2013 03:39 Raay wrote: This is outrageous, how can the largest sc2 league in a world of 8billion people miss this? That the map was played on fast obviously had an impact on the players in some way and this should never ever happen again.
bit much no?
edit:oh first post
Maybe slightly out of line indeed, however, I meant all of it and the game could have ended diffrently. Not vouching for either player.
On May 19 2013 03:49 Henk wrote: This is quite strange - but honestly, even with their adrenaline kicking in, did the players really not notice this? The worker speed is SO much lower on fast, it's hard to miss.
Is it not possible the VOD speed is different than the speed the game was played on? Like, someone opened the replay, then recorded it on 95% speed by mistake?
GSL is casted live, so no, if the game seems slower on the cast, it WAS slower for the players.
This is quite the nice find... And quite the story. I certainly expect the people involved to apologize for such a huge blunder; but hey, if we didn't even notice, I guess it wasn't so bad after all. Apologize and move on, GOMTV. Shit happens; just pretty embarrassing for everyone... We're in this together!
omg flip out. its not like it mattered for one player more then another. this isnt like the nestea game where the map was wrong and game the terran a unfair advantage chill out move on no one noticed but one guy with way too much time on his hands to research this
On May 19 2013 04:12 psychotics wrote: omg flip out. its not like it mattered for one player more then another. this isnt like the nestea game where the map was wrong and game the terran a unfair advantage chill out move on no one noticed but one guy with way too much time on his hands to research this
Actually, one could argue that the differences between Protoss and Zerg's mechanics as well as the whole aggressor/defender-thing gives the advantage to one player or another. No matter, it's much too late to change anything now, but it's still quite significant.
On May 19 2013 04:12 psychotics wrote: omg flip out. its not like it mattered for one player more then another. this isnt like the nestea game where the map was wrong and game the terran a unfair advantage chill out move on no one noticed but one guy with way too much time on his hands to research this
Actually, one could argue that the differences between Protoss and Zerg's mechanics as well as the whole aggressor/defender-thing gives the advantage to one player or another. No matter, it's much too late to change anything now, but it's still quite significant.
Given that it's 1/10 of a second different, were there any points in the game where an action came down to 1/10 of a second. Spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
On May 19 2013 04:12 psychotics wrote: omg flip out. its not like it mattered for one player more then another. this isnt like the nestea game where the map was wrong and game the terran a unfair advantage chill out move on no one noticed but one guy with way too much time on his hands to research this
Actually, one could argue that the differences between Protoss and Zerg's mechanics as well as the whole aggressor/defender-thing gives the advantage to one player or another. No matter, it's much too late to change anything now, but it's still quite significant.
Given that it's 1/10 of a second different, were there any points in the game where an action came down to 1/10 of a second. Spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
there weren't.
It had no significant impact on the game.
The extra .1 seconds you get every time you're doing anything (especially when it comes to microing against probes or throwing down crucial forcefields) in a game as micro-intensive as Starcraft can be crucial. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it matters. How much it matters is another discussion entirely, but it does.
Wow really nice find. But I don't really think in that situation in that game this would matter much, PartinG's hold is none other than astonishing and judging from Life's play that night I'd say PartinG deserves that win anyways.
On May 19 2013 04:37 digmouse wrote: Wow really nice find. But I don't really think in that situation in that game this would matter much, PartinG's hold is none other than astonishing and judging from Life's play that night I'd say PartinG deserves that win anyways.
It would be more astonishing if he actually held at the game speed the game was supposed to be played at =)
Honestly, if the game speed was at a lower pace, Life would benefit even more. Better response time, more time to make the correct units, better creep spread, and better times to set up flanks. There's not much a protoss can do other than the spell casters and targeting when defending and attacking.
On May 19 2013 05:16 tubster68 wrote: Honestly, if the game speed was at a lower pace, Life would benefit even more. Better response time, more time to make the correct units, better creep spread, and better times to set up flanks. There's not much a protoss can do other than the spell casters and targeting when defending and attacking.
On May 19 2013 05:16 tubster68 wrote: Honestly, if the game speed was at a lower pace, Life would benefit even more. Better response time, more time to make the correct units, better creep spread, and better times to set up flanks. There's not much a protoss can do other than the spell casters and targeting when defending and attacking.
Did you see the game? You can debate ZvP in general but in this particular game the slower speed is clearly an advantage for parting.
On May 19 2013 03:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
No, they played out the game at a slower speed than usual.
On May 19 2013 03:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
No, they played out the game at a slower speed than usual.
That's what he said :L
No, the first comment implied they played at faster.
On May 19 2013 03:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
No, they played out the game at a slower speed than usual.
That's what he said :L
No, the first comment implied they played at faster.
They did compete on "Faster" and not "Fastest" game speed.
Which advantage? PartinG did not need a lower speed to do what he did... Just look at game 2 vs Life or game 4 vs Soulkey... This would not have changed anything... This is still unbelievable that none of the players or casters have noticed this...
On May 19 2013 03:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So in summary, they competed at Faster speed, but the ref accidentally shifted the observer speed to Fast (down from initially being Faster at the start)? We witnessed a slow-motion version of what was actually occurring?
No, they played out the game at a slower speed than usual.
That's what he said :L
No, the first comment implied they played at faster.
They did compete on "Faster" and not "Fastest" game speed.
The original comment asked "we witnessed a slow motio version of what was actually occurring?" He was correcting him, and i think he meant to say "they played it faster", not at faster. But whatever
On May 19 2013 06:39 claybones wrote: I'm in awe, can tell instantly when I accidentally set the wrong game speed. How the hell did two of the best players in the world miss it?
Same here. I don't understand how could it happen.
On May 19 2013 06:39 claybones wrote: I'm in awe, can tell instantly when I accidentally set the wrong game speed. How the hell did two of the best players in the world miss it?
Same here. I don't understand how could it happen.
well, 'we' let it happen didn't we? it's not like anyone ever noticed or anything until weeks after the fact. i'm in shock too, the difference in game speed is very noticeable yet it is understandable for the players that are going through all the feelings of stress and anxiety.
for spectators though?--we also got absorbed, i'm glad at least somebody noticed a glitch in the matrix
On May 19 2013 06:39 claybones wrote: I'm in awe, can tell instantly when I accidentally set the wrong game speed. How the hell did two of the best players in the world miss it?
Same here. I don't understand how could it happen.
well, 'we' let it happen didn't we? it's not like anyone ever noticed or anything until weeks after the fact. i'm in shock too, the difference in game speed is very noticeable yet it is understandable for the players that are going through all the feelings of stress and anxiety.
for spectators though?--we also got absorbed, i'm glad at least somebody noticed a glitch in the matrix
Exactly, we were all hyped for the group of death and the games were amazing, that none of us noticed it. The players never noticed it cause it's the final deciding match and they're probably filled with adrenaline and anxiety. Also, it was on fastest at the start, which is where the players would notice and since it started out fine, players are never going to assume game speed is suddenly going to change from the start of the match.
i think both players MUST have noticed at some time or other that it was slower than normal. But then, as many people have mentioned, it does give an advantage to both players. Its just a matter of who can play better at a slower speed? maybe both parting and life felt that at slower speed they would do better? idk, just seems impossible that they 'didn't notice'
On May 19 2013 06:39 claybones wrote: I'm in awe, can tell instantly when I accidentally set the wrong game speed. How the hell did two of the best players in the world miss it?
Same here. I don't understand how could it happen.
adrenaline and stress . but adrenaline level can be so high you feel anything is going quite slow motion anyway
On May 19 2013 07:25 probeater wrote: i think both players MUST have noticed at some time or other that it was slower than normal. But then, as many people have mentioned, it does give an advantage to both players. Its just a matter of who can play better at a slower speed? maybe both parting and life felt that at slower speed they would do better? idk, just seems impossible that they 'didn't notice'
If they did notice, they probably thought they were imagining it and/or that it was just nerves and/or thought that it couldn't be true because the observers would've caught it (as they should have). Like, in a practice game, they'd probably be like, "Whoa, it's way too slow!" But on a big stage and playing in an elimination set, you're much more likely to just think, "It must just be me, surely GOM wouldn't mess up something like that."
Ofc would be stupid to do regames or what not, but they owe an apology to both players: (1) Life, because he may or may not have been able to advance if the game was properly played, and (2) Parting, because now people will doubt the legitimacy of his win.
Man, imagine how much worse this would've been if Parting hadn't gotten knocked out.
I think both players probably thought to themselves at some point in the game, "X seems slow..." Afterwards they may have just ignored the thought attributing it to nerves/stress or something else. Of course one or both of them may have noticed and chose not to do anything.
On May 19 2013 05:16 tubster68 wrote: Honestly, if the game speed was at a lower pace, Life would benefit even more. Better response time, more time to make the correct units, better creep spread, and better times to set up flanks. There's not much a protoss can do other than the spell casters and targeting when defending and attacking.
Did you see the game? You can debate ZvP in general but in this particular game the slower speed is clearly an advantage for parting.
If the second match of that set was on "fast",I think i would agree. But on that game parting won because he trapped lifes swarmhosts on his main while cleaning up his natural and not because of his forefield micro. Iam no fan of parting, but he played in his own league that two games and fully deserved those wins.
btw. that gamespeed- issue explains why life had that bad timing with the photon overcharge. he threw his lings to early in again.
On May 19 2013 05:16 tubster68 wrote: Honestly, if the game speed was at a lower pace, Life would benefit even more. Better response time, more time to make the correct units, better creep spread, and better times to set up flanks. There's not much a protoss can do other than the spell casters and targeting when defending and attacking.
Did you see the game? You can debate ZvP in general but in this particular game the slower speed is clearly an advantage for parting.
. But on that game parting won because he trapped lifes swarmhosts on his main while cleaning up his natural and not because of his forefield micro.
What parting was only able to do that because life was behind after his failed speedling attack due to parting's godly hold. The game was over for life right there basically and whatever happened after was just the result of life being too far behind to hold off parting's counter push. Everyone called it a godly and miracle hold by parting. The slower game speed helped with that
This is pure bullshit... It also helped Life... If it helps for controlling probes, it helps for controlling lings. And I think PartinG is able to build a pylon or a gate, put one ff at the right time with fast speed or faster speed... Truth is that in faster speed the result would be the same... This is all about hate of PartinG, and the fact to not accept that PartinG deserved his victory.
On May 19 2013 09:05 NeThZOR wrote: Slip-up by the observer. Nonetheless, it couldn't have been advantageous to Parting and detrimental to Life in this case.
Why not? Imagine splitting marines vs banelings, who gets the advantage when the game speed is slower? Same deal with forcefields.
On May 19 2013 08:58 GL999et1000 wrote: This is pure bullshit... It also helped Life... If it helps for controlling probes, it helps for controlling lings. And I think PartinG is able to build a pylon or a gate, put one ff at the right time with fast speed or faster speed... Truth is that in faster speed the result would be the same... This is all about hate of PartinG, and the fact to not accept that PartinG deserved his victory.
So an asymmetric influence of game speed on control would be impossible, according to your truth? If standard game speed would be slower, it would have no impact at all on for example balance? (for example, like someone said, banelings become a lot weaker...)
I 'm not saying the game would've had another ending, but the assumption game speed would have had no difference is a very bold one. Also, i feel attributing all opinions (other than the ones stating there would be no difference) to 'parting hate' is derogatory at best. It could even be seen as simple minded, seeing how you provide no evidence at all, while attacking the people thinking otherwise directly. I for one accept parting's victory. If life or startale (likewise for parting or skt) would've had any objections, they should've mentioned them during the game imo.
To argue that Parting was given an advantage due to this is ludicrous. The effect is a complete wash, as others have pointed out, it gives both players micro/macro advantages as everything happens slower.
To say he had an advantage in this scenario is to say Protoss always has the advantage. It just doesn't make sense.
On May 19 2013 09:43 TronJovolta wrote: To argue that Parting was given an advantage due to this is ludicrous. The effect is a complete wash, as others have pointed out, it gives both players micro/macro advantages as everything happens slower.
To say he had an advantage in this scenario is to say Protoss always has the advantage. It just doesn't make sense.
You're not making sense. The more you slow the game down, the more speedlings are going to suck vs sentries.
On May 19 2013 08:58 GL999et1000 wrote: This is pure bullshit... It also helped Life... If it helps for controlling probes, it helps for controlling lings. And I think PartinG is able to build a pylon or a gate, put one ff at the right time with fast speed or faster speed... Truth is that in faster speed the result would be the same... This is all about hate of PartinG, and the fact to not accept that PartinG deserved his victory.
So an asymmetric influence of game speed on control would be impossible, according to your truth? If standard game speed would be slower, it would have no impact at all on for example balance? (for example, like someone said, banelings become a lot weaker...)
I 'm not saying the game would've had another ending, but the assumption game speed would have had no difference is a very bold one. Also, i feel attributing all opinions (other than the ones stating there would be no difference) to 'parting hate' is derogatory at best. It could even be seen as simple minded, seeing how you provide no evidence at all, while attacking the people thinking otherwise directly. I for one accept parting's victory. If life or startale (likewise for parting or skt) would've had any objections, they should've mentioned them during the game imo.
Actually this is simply and honestly that I don't see where in this game this would have changed something... Even if Life would have killed 1 or 2 more probes at the beginning, game was over for Life when he decided to overcommit on lings... After having killed 8 probes, 1 pylon, 1 stalker, having delayed PartinG from mining, he was not well but ok... Afterwards it was way too easy for PartinG to defend with 2 sentries 1 momocore 1 zealot and few buildings against all those lings... In game 2 I would see where this would have changed something because PartinG won the game when he trapped 20 lings with ff... But for me in game 1 this was just about bad decision making from Life...
On May 19 2013 08:58 GL999et1000 wrote: This is pure bullshit... It also helped Life... If it helps for controlling probes, it helps for controlling lings. And I think PartinG is able to build a pylon or a gate, put one ff at the right time with fast speed or faster speed... Truth is that in faster speed the result would be the same... This is all about hate of PartinG, and the fact to not accept that PartinG deserved his victory.
So an asymmetric influence of game speed on control would be impossible, according to your truth? If standard game speed would be slower, it would have no impact at all on for example balance? (for example, like someone said, banelings become a lot weaker...)
I 'm not saying the game would've had another ending, but the assumption game speed would have had no difference is a very bold one. Also, i feel attributing all opinions (other than the ones stating there would be no difference) to 'parting hate' is derogatory at best. It could even be seen as simple minded, seeing how you provide no evidence at all, while attacking the people thinking otherwise directly. I for one accept parting's victory. If life or startale (likewise for parting or skt) would've had any objections, they should've mentioned them during the game imo.
Actually this is simply and honestly that I don't see where in this game this would have changed something... Even if Life would have killed 1 or 2 more probes at the beginning, game was over for Life when he decided to overcommit on lings... After having killed 8 probes, 1 pylon, 1 stalker, having delayed PartinG from mining, he was not well but ok... Afterwards it was way too easy for PartinG to defend with 2 sentries 1 momocore 1 zealot and few buildings against all those lings... In game 2 I would see where this would have changed something because PartinG won the game when he trapped 20 slings with ff... But for me in game 1 this was just about bad decision making from Life...
This is where I disagree. Without the miracle hold life wouldn't have killed one or two more probes. He would have killed parting right then and there and the game would have ended unless parting had mkp gg timing.
On May 18 2013 23:33 PVJ wrote: I was watching live and didn't notice it. I just felt like PartinG was really focused.
But if we go by this -- wouldn't playing on fast benefit the game?
Lowering skillcap is a benefit? If anything head in the other direction and make it even faster because this game is too easy according to many pros.
What pros said this game is easy lately? Please reference them. Also why aren't they winning?
I am tired of people calling a game easy that is based on action spending and is human vs human. Until we see perfect play done easily with 1 hand while yawning and drinking Nestea, this game is not easy. Just because the interface changed doesn't make the game 'easier' it just means that the distribution of actions spent on certain things is shifted.
this is kinda off-topic, but jangbi said this during an interview with khaldor. why he isn't winning (that much right now anyway) is his whole point. he stated that a lot of players are gonna do well at sc2 because it's easier to play.
I think it would make a big difference; everyone comments on Life's ling usage, that his lings perform better than most people's. His skill at micro is higher than many people. So when you slow down the game, you are lowering the skill ceiling and thus reducing the benefit that life gets based on his micro vs parting's. In that specific situation I just re-watched it and I'd say there is a definite advantage to the defender; more time to block holes and see what's happening and react than there normally would be.
it's difficult to say that they did/didn't notice it because we are not the players personally i think they noticed it, and life chose to all-in because he'd be able to micro better oo
On May 19 2013 10:59 MrSnuffy wrote: I think it would make a big difference; everyone comments on Life's ling usage, that his lings perform better than most people's. His skill at micro is higher than many people. So when you slow down the game, you are lowering the skill ceiling and thus reducing the benefit that life gets based on his micro vs parting's. In that specific situation I just re-watched it and I'd say there is a definite advantage to the defender; more time to block holes and see what's happening and react than there normally would be.
You are not lowering the skill ceiling. You are changing what it's composed of. I'm so tired of this simplistic bullshit.
With a slower game speed, micro that would be impossible on faster comes within grasp, creating a new regime of micro you should be doing to maximize value -- if you're good enough. The micro we think of as standard would then be considered more of a base line, but that doesn't mean that suddenly the skill was sucked out of the game.
On topic: wow nice find. What an interesting circumstance that transpired, pretty funny in retrospect.
^ still, lower game speed is better for protoss than it is for zerg, in any engagement. More time to react and position your shit is better for the defending player.
And, even if everything were equal, it was the wrong game speed and therefore the game should be waste-basketed.
On May 19 2013 11:52 RogerChillingworth wrote: ^ still, lower game speed is better for protoss than it is for zerg, in any engagement. More time to react and position your shit is better for the defending player.
And, even if everything were equal, it was the wrong game speed and therefore the game should be waste-basketed.
Yeah, it deserves to be waste-basketed, but it's utterly impractical to do so now.
Nazgul is right. This is actually a big deal. But there is nothing that can be done except that GOM has to issue an apology to Life/Parting and ensure stuff like this doesn't happened.( Watch Byun vs Nestea)
On May 19 2013 11:52 RogerChillingworth wrote: ^ still, lower game speed is better for protoss than it is for zerg, in any engagement. More time to react and position your shit is better for the defending player.
And, even if everything were equal, it was the wrong game speed and therefore the game should be waste-basketed.
It was better for protoss in this individual game because zerg was attacking and he was defending which gave him time for better positioning, but I don't think it is inherently better for protoss. If he didn't decide to attack and instead went for a muta opening the map would have a probe count of zero.
Lol, the difference between Fast and Faster is so miniscule that there's practically zero advantage to Parting in this situation. Yeah, Life's lings are slower (slower that only one person in the entire community noticed) but so are Parting's units, and so are the Forcefields he used to hold off Life's aggression.
Yeah, it sucks. But there's nothing to be done about it at this point.
I'm not sure about it, but I think Life should've scouted at least 2 respawns while 3 is possible. But it's seems he scouted only 1. What if Parting wasn't there? Hm... Also that "Group of Death" raises questions about free will. ... OMG GOMTV you are so dirty!
On May 19 2013 15:28 Lunareste wrote: Lol, the difference between Fast and Faster is so miniscule that there's practically zero advantage to Parting in this situation. Yeah, Life's lings are slower (slower that only one person in the entire community noticed) but so are Parting's units, and so are the Forcefields he used to hold off Life's aggression.
Yeah, it sucks. But there's nothing to be done about it at this point.
14% speed isnt minuscule, also it makes a huge different due to how the game was played out. When you put on ling aggression you count on your opponent not being able to respond in time. Imagine playing some sort of zergling rush defense map, would you want to play it at 100% or 150% (if you played for money)? Pretty sure anyone would take 100% any time of the day.
This is a pretty big find. Hope it doesn't occur again.
On May 19 2013 13:45 Jintoss wrote: WAIT WAIT WAIT
Observers can change the game speed? That's a bit of a stupid addition isn't it?
Not exactly? It's so you don't have to rehost the entire fucking game every time someone hosts it in the wrong speed. It's just that nobody noticed that it was...in the wrong speed.
On May 19 2013 13:45 Jintoss wrote: WAIT WAIT WAIT
Observers can change the game speed? That's a bit of a stupid addition isn't it?
Not exactly? It's so you don't have to rehost the entire fucking game every time someone hosts it in the wrong speed. It's just that nobody noticed that it was...in the wrong speed.
As I said before though, there's no reason that "DECREASE GAME SPEED" should have a default keybind.
There's no harm in ever hitting the "+" key, but if you hit "-" on accident, you're always fucking up a game.
On May 19 2013 10:59 MrSnuffy wrote: I think it would make a big difference; everyone comments on Life's ling usage, that his lings perform better than most people's. His skill at micro is higher than many people. So when you slow down the game, you are lowering the skill ceiling and thus reducing the benefit that life gets based on his micro vs parting's. In that specific situation I just re-watched it and I'd say there is a definite advantage to the defender; more time to block holes and see what's happening and react than there normally would be.
And also the brain reaction and mouse movement is still the same regardless the game speed. Therefore there was more time for Parting to make decision & perform defense action when he noticed ling rush.
On May 19 2013 15:28 Lunareste wrote: Lol, the difference between Fast and Faster is so miniscule that there's practically zero advantage to Parting in this situation. Yeah, Life's lings are slower (slower that only one person in the entire community noticed) but so are Parting's units, and so are the Forcefields he used to hold off Life's aggression.
Yeah, it sucks. But there's nothing to be done about it at this point.
It's only minuscule to someone who can't micro well enough to tell the difference, at a pro level it's pretty game-changing. At the same time it goes to show how "in the zone" the players were and how hyped everyone else was that nobody reacted in time.
The reason it's game-changing is not necessarily that the lings are slower, but that PartinG had more time than you normally would in any other match to place his forcefields with accuracy. Again, if you don't micro at the top level, you won't be able to tell the difference yourself, but even the slightest fraction of a second can turn a situation upside down when it comes to spells like forcefields.
Although yeah, it's too late to do anything about it.
Also lol at that guy above who suggests that GOM fixed the group to end up like this. -_- smh
To all those fanboys who put that gamespeed issue as a reason why life lost, watch the last match and youll see that partings micro was on fastest gamespeed even better then in the first match, There was nothing he couldnt do on faster that he did on fast . And for the first match I dont see any situation Parting did profit from a slower gamespeed. His building positioning had nothing to do with speed but with intelligence or luck.
To everyone else,... its bad and nonprofessional but not a very huge thing that they messed up the gamespeed.But everytime a professional game lacks of a regular constant, people will automaticaly see the looser as handicapped. And thats a problem because people dont see fairness in it.
Unfortunate mistake honestly its probably happened more than once before this case as well, considering thousands of viewers, casters and players all missed it.
On May 19 2013 20:51 HystericaLaughter wrote: Unfortunate mistake honestly its probably happened more than once before this case as well, considering thousands of viewers, casters and players all missed it.
Its stil not just an "unfortunate mistake". Its a HUGE blunder imo. Stuff like this simply CANNOT happen in the GSL or any other major tournament.
On May 19 2013 20:51 HystericaLaughter wrote: Unfortunate mistake honestly its probably happened more than once before this case as well, considering thousands of viewers, casters and players all missed it.
Its stil not just an "unfortunate mistake". Its a HUGE blunder imo. Stuff like this simply CANNOT happen in the GSL or any other major tournament.
Might not be a bad idea to simply disable lower speeds on tournament maps.
On May 19 2013 19:34 tomatriedes wrote: Pretty fail by Blizzard to allow observers to change game speed. This needs to be taken out.
Ye its all Blizzards fault that the creator of the game didnt choose "Faster" as the game speed, or changed the game speed mid-game. Has nothing to do with Blizzard its GOMTVs fault entirely.
but the fact that it is guaranteed that both players noticed it in game and did not pause or say anything about it just means that it doesn't matter, and that goes especially to people saying it wasn't fair for Life...
On May 19 2013 23:34 20cts wrote: The game shouldn't allow observers to change speed with just one key hit without even displaying a message to notify players.
Or cautious observers could just disable the speed up/down hotkeys.
This is actually A LOT MORE BIG DEAL than people think.. The amount of gain of slower speeds are actually HUGE for one race compared to other..
A lot more time to set Forcefields, a lot more time to split units.. It's even getting WORSE for Zerg cause your "CHAAARGE" won't feel the same either..
Good thing that this was a PvZ though, cause Terran pretty much is the most profitable race from slower game speeds.. Still - if not P gaining as much "safety" as Terran would - pretty sure that Zerg loses a lot of it's movement advantage on slower game speeds
And yes - the game was played slower than usual, it doesn't require much expertise to notice/see, just see that Stalker movement when chasing the lings out - just doesn't feel the same..
I am not sure they intent to answer anytime soon. Unless it catches fire on in Korea it is very doubtful they will answer. Unless, once again, Blizzard puts his nose it this, but then again, very doubtful Blizzard makes any move.
On May 20 2013 00:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: This is actually A LOT MORE BIG DEAL than people think.. The amount of gain of slower speeds are actually HUGE for one race compared to other..
A lot more time to set Forcefields, a lot more time to split units.. It's even getting WORSE for Zerg cause your "CHAAARGE" won't feel the same either..
Good thing that this was a PvZ though, cause Terran pretty much is the most profitable race from slower game speeds.. Still - if not P gaining as much "safety" as Terran would - pretty sure that Zerg loses a lot of it's movement advantage on slower game speeds
And yes - the game was played slower than usual, it doesn't require much expertise to notice/see, just see that Stalker movement when chasing the lings out - just doesn't feel the same..
Good find though Sir..
If it was as big a deal as some people are making out the players would have noticed, or if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
On May 20 2013 00:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: This is actually A LOT MORE BIG DEAL than people think.. The amount of gain of slower speeds are actually HUGE for one race compared to other..
A lot more time to set Forcefields, a lot more time to split units.. It's even getting WORSE for Zerg cause your "CHAAARGE" won't feel the same either..
Good thing that this was a PvZ though, cause Terran pretty much is the most profitable race from slower game speeds.. Still - if not P gaining as much "safety" as Terran would - pretty sure that Zerg loses a lot of it's movement advantage on slower game speeds
And yes - the game was played slower than usual, it doesn't require much expertise to notice/see, just see that Stalker movement when chasing the lings out - just doesn't feel the same..
Good find though Sir..
If it was as big a deal as some people are making out the players would have noticed, or if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
You're right, it's not like humans are affected by hormones such as adrenaline, especially in high stress high pressure situations.
So the game was played on fast speed. Partings incredible micro and building placement saved him the game. Whos to say if it was played on fastest parting would held easier? Buildings, units, mining wouldve been all faster. But larting lost in the end so w.e. lol
if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
It's not that easy i guess, they probably noticed, but didn't know what to do, so they just continued their game. Korean leagues are way more strict about what you can do or not while playing, and Parting and Life probably didn't know how to respond.
"(9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game. " (From the GomTV Tournament rules)
On May 20 2013 00:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: This is actually A LOT MORE BIG DEAL than people think.. The amount of gain of slower speeds are actually HUGE for one race compared to other..
A lot more time to set Forcefields, a lot more time to split units.. It's even getting WORSE for Zerg cause your "CHAAARGE" won't feel the same either..
Good thing that this was a PvZ though, cause Terran pretty much is the most profitable race from slower game speeds.. Still - if not P gaining as much "safety" as Terran would - pretty sure that Zerg loses a lot of it's movement advantage on slower game speeds
And yes - the game was played slower than usual, it doesn't require much expertise to notice/see, just see that Stalker movement when chasing the lings out - just doesn't feel the same..
Good find though Sir..
If it was as big a deal as some people are making out the players would have noticed, or if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
You're right, it's not like humans are affected by hormones such as adrenaline, especially in high stress high pressure situations.
Humans have the ability to call pp if they think something is wrong, just like in many other sports where players are able to call for a let or a foul. If they didn't notice than it can't have effected that game too much. I do think however that this should just be put to rest and a fuss shouldn't be made out of it, it was unfortunate obviously but there isn't anything anyone can do.
To be honest I thought it was lag on my screen when I was watching it LIVE. I wonder if anyone else watching it thought it was the same thing with their screen because normally we're very good at spotting such things on the screen like the players/admins/mods/etc.
On May 20 2013 01:25 StarStruck wrote: To be honest I thought it was lag on my screen when I was watching it LIVE. I wonder if anyone else watching it thought it was the same thing with their screen because normally we're very good at spotting such things on the screen like the players/admins/mods/etc.
I didn't notice anything at all. Too engrossed by the defense of Parting and Life's resilience lol
if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
It's not that easy i guess, they probably noticed, but didn't know what to do, so they just continued their game. Korean leagues are way more strict about what you can do or not while playing, and Parting and Life probably didn't know how to respond.
"(9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game. " (From the GomTV Tournament rules)
the keyphrase is "between the players". there has to be some rule about saying 'pp' for requesting a pause.
if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
It's not that easy i guess, they probably noticed, but didn't know what to do, so they just continued their game. Korean leagues are way more strict about what you can do or not while playing, and Parting and Life probably didn't know how to respond.
"(9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game. " (From the GomTV Tournament rules)
the keyphrase is "between the players". there has to be some rule about saying 'pp' for requesting a pause.
they can easily call 'pp' it happens all the time and I don't think i've seen a loss handed out for it in sc2. If you're equipment isn't working, you're heavily sweating or some other thing is happening it's usually a warning at most. For this you can easily pause especially if it's in the early game where it doesn't really matter much yet.
On May 19 2013 19:34 tomatriedes wrote: Pretty fail by Blizzard to allow observers to change game speed. This needs to be taken out.
Ye its all Blizzards fault that the creator of the game didnt choose "Faster" as the game speed, or changed the game speed mid-game. Has nothing to do with Blizzard its GOMTVs fault entirely.
GSL obviously made the mistake, but there's absolutely no reason why this feature should even be there in the first place. Why on Earth should a neutral observer be able to mess around with game speeds during a game? Just a bad idea all round.
not sure if this has been posted, but here is partinG responding to a tweet pointing out the situation. If anyone would care to translate it, I'm sure we might all get a better perspective on it.
I guess Parting and Life are professionals, they play the game unless something is really wrong (like keyboard not working or a broken monitor). No way they didnt notice the speed difference, with the amount of training they have. Imo they noticed when building the first pylon/overlord.
PartinG's first reaction on twitter: Susna Lee @_ensue 17 May huh. @SKT1_PartinG vs. @Startale_Life rematch set1 was played on Fast/빠름 not Faster/아주빠름 윤영서 @LiquidTaeJa 17 May @_ensue 헐 진짜네여 =_=;; 원이삭 @SKT1_PartinG 17 May @LiquidTaeJa @_ensue ??무슨소리징
On May 20 2013 03:40 Psz wrote: PartinG's first reaction on twitter: Susna Lee @_ensue 17 May huh. @SKT1_PartinG vs. @Startale_Life rematch set1 was played on Fast/빠름 not Faster/아주빠름 윤영서 @LiquidTaeJa 17 May @_ensue 헐 진짜네여 =_=;; 원이삭 @SKT1_PartinG 17 May @LiquidTaeJa @_ensue ??무슨소리징
PartinG asked: What are you talking about?
I'm so sorry for him T.T
Wow. No one really had a clue. The players, casters, no one. You have to wonder now how many times this could of happen in the past and no one noticed.
On May 17 2013 23:54 kochanfe wrote: Uh, no it actually wasn't. You honestly think the players and casters wouldn't have noticed immediately? Sorry, but you're wrong.
LOL Second post of the page. Someone needs to say sorry. Almost feel sorry for this guy. What are the odd tho.
On May 20 2013 03:40 Psz wrote: PartinG's first reaction on twitter: Susna Lee @_ensue 17 May huh. @SKT1_PartinG vs. @Startale_Life rematch set1 was played on Fast/빠름 not Faster/아주빠름 윤영서 @LiquidTaeJa 17 May @_ensue 헐 진짜네여 =_=;; 원이삭 @SKT1_PartinG 17 May @LiquidTaeJa @_ensue ??무슨소리징
On May 20 2013 03:40 Psz wrote: PartinG's first reaction on twitter: Susna Lee @_ensue 17 May huh. @SKT1_PartinG vs. @Startale_Life rematch set1 was played on Fast/빠름 not Faster/아주빠름 윤영서 @LiquidTaeJa 17 May @_ensue 헐 진짜네여 =_=;; 원이삭 @SKT1_PartinG 17 May @LiquidTaeJa @_ensue ??무슨소리징
PartinG asked: What are you talking about?
I'm so sorry for him T.T
But guys, no way Parting and Life didn't notice
They probably did but figured it was just their nerves since adrenaline must be pumping for both parting and life. I mean, winner does move on to ro8 while loser wash dishes.
well I can understand it is neat to have this feature, but maybe it should be on a 3 button combination you never hit accidentally hehe. Hope the obs is no life fan, that did press it.
This sounds really weird to me. This exact thing once happened to me in a tournament game where we accidentally set the speed to 'Fast'. Both me and my opponent felt something was wrong pretty much as soon as the game started and figured out quite quickly that the game was on the wrong speed. From that perspective it sounds weird to me that 2 players that play this game for like 12 hours a day both didnt notice it (or didnt care).
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Not sure if you're being serious or not, but that's obviously incorrect.
Why is it in your opinion? Just wondering, cause I'm also in the opinion that if the game is slowed down to think that it only favors a player and not both makes not sense to me...
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Not sure if you're being serious or not, but that's obviously incorrect.
Why is it in your opinion? Just wondering, cause I'm also in the opinion that if the game is slowed down to think that it only favors a player and not both makes not sense to me...
Because Protoss has more time to do things such as place forcefields, while Zerg doesn't have any kind of micro that benefits from a slowed game speed.
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Not sure if you're being serious or not, but that's obviously incorrect.
Why is it in your opinion? Just wondering, cause I'm also in the opinion that if the game is slowed down to think that it only favors a player and not both makes not sense to me...
Laying down force fields against fast lings and microing against lings in general becomes significantly easier when you lower the game speed. However, Parting is just so darn amazing that I think it would have turned out the way it did anyway, but you never know. Nothing to be done about it.
On May 20 2013 09:43 Jakkerr wrote: This sounds really weird to me. This exact thing once happened to me in a tournament game where we accidentally set the speed to 'Fast'. Both me and my opponent felt something was wrong pretty much as soon as the game started and figured out quite quickly that the game was on the wrong speed. From that perspective it sounds weird to me that 2 players that play this game for like 12 hours a day both didnt notice it (or didnt care).
Yeah but at the same time, you and your opponent were not in the absolute most difficult group known to man.
On May 20 2013 11:24 katherine wrote: Because Protoss has more time to do things such as place forcefields, while Zerg doesn't have any kind of micro that benefits from a slowed game speed.
I would argue that zerg has to micro MORE than toss in an engagement. Zerg has to micro differently than other race in that they have to bring units to attack in the right position (flanking, back stab, wrap zerglings into a group of units than attack). Zerg attack is more beneficial by good positioning before hand which requires micro. Zerg units are weaker in nature and thus you have to baby sit them a lot more than protoss units (they are stronger and able to survive longer).
Zerg has plenty of micro, it's just that Life went for a gameplan that put the micro burden on the toss in the early game, so the game speed worked against his rush.
Either way you look at it, Parting won fairly, but it's insane that this wasn't noticed.
Well it`s understandable. Picture yourself at the olympics, you`re in the final 8 of the shotput and the shot feels a little light to you. You gonna say something or chalk it up to the surreal experience?
On May 20 2013 14:02 mishimaBeef wrote: Well it`s understandable. Picture yourself at the olympics, you`re in the final 8 of the shotput and the shot feels a little light to you. You gonna say something or chalk it up to the surreal experience?
Or perhaps you just accept its a little lighter, but carry on anyway since everyone uses the same shot.
if they did notice they would have mentioned it, neither player said anything indicating that both players were fine with it.
It's not that easy i guess, they probably noticed, but didn't know what to do, so they just continued their game. Korean leagues are way more strict about what you can do or not while playing, and Parting and Life probably didn't know how to respond.
"(9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game. " (From the GomTV Tournament rules)
the keyphrase is "between the players". there has to be some rule about saying 'pp' for requesting a pause.
On May 20 2013 14:02 mishimaBeef wrote: Well it`s understandable. Picture yourself at the olympics, you`re in the final 8 of the shotput and the shot feels a little light to you. You gonna say something or chalk it up to the surreal experience?
Or perhaps you just accept its a little lighter, but carry on anyway since everyone uses the same shot.
Or perhaps you realize that the olympics committee probably got it right.
I mean. Life should have had significantly improved micro also, so it's not much of an issue. The FF and building placement is just as impressive to me because Life had an equal advantage.
On May 21 2013 02:16 Nuclease wrote: I mean. Life should have had significantly improved micro also, so it's not much of an issue. The FF and building placement is just as impressive to me because Life had an equal advantage.
Slower game speed makes lings able to go through force fields?
On May 21 2013 02:16 Nuclease wrote: I mean. Life should have had significantly improved micro also, so it's not much of an issue. The FF and building placement is just as impressive to me because Life had an equal advantage.
Slower game speed makes lings able to go through force fields?
Yeah man, it's like those forcefields from Stargate SG-1. They stop bullets, but not arrows.
On May 18 2013 01:35 DTDstarcraft wrote: Here's an video as proof: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnEs2EhVe64
Video has been removed .
Also in terms of gamespeed... there is always one thing I disliked in SC and WC, it's the fact that game speed is mapped to a hotkey (which means you can accidentally press it).
They should make it so it's not set to any key by default.
Also I think (in the future) to remove any chance of these mistakes happening, Blizzard should set a "tournament settings" in the default lobby that default the speed to fastest (and unchangeable in game).
Tournament settings should also have something else too (but for now, locking the speed to fastest seems to be one good reason to have it).
Yes, it's silly but if it only takes like 5 minutes to remove the increase/decrease game speed hotkeys (which can be removed manually in the hotkey settings it's just it's set to -/= by default I think, which means potential for accidentally hitting) and maybe longer to add a tournament setting that locks game speed to fastest (or make a text notification anytime game speed is increased or lowered, like how when you disable sound with Ctrl + S), then it's worth the investment IMO and Blizzard should do it in an update if possible.
I didn't even know you can change game speed in mutliplayer games during the actual game itself (I thought it was only possible in single player) but I guess the referee (observer with the ability to communicate to players) has the ability to change game speed in game which is interesting (and leads to possibilities of mistakes like this happening more in the future due to the fact that game speed increase and decreases are set to keys by default).
On May 21 2013 02:16 Nuclease wrote: I mean. Life should have had significantly improved micro also, so it's not much of an issue. The FF and building placement is just as impressive to me because Life had an equal advantage.
Slower game speed makes lings able to go through force fields?
Yeah, speed affects races different (due to asymmetrical aspect of the game of course).
Also, even if it was a mirror match up (TvT for example), then game speed may favor a player more than another.
For example, if someone went bio vs someone that went mechs and was slowly moving out, the slower speed would benefit the person who went bio because it would mean (for example) if the mech player was leap frogging their tanks (unsieging and sieging), the slower speed would give more time for the bio player to react to siege tanks unsieging and then stim and a-move.
That's only a mirror match example, better examples (of game speed favoring a race or unit composition over another) are in different race match ups like marines vs banelings. If the game speed was set to the slowest, almost any player would be able to micro and split their marines to take out banelings.
On May 20 2013 11:24 katherine wrote: Because Protoss has more time to do things such as place forcefields, while Zerg doesn't have any kind of micro that benefits from a slowed game speed.
I would argue that zerg has to micro MORE than toss in an engagement. Zerg has to micro differently than other race in that they have to bring units to attack in the right position (flanking, back stab, wrap zerglings into a group of units than attack). Zerg attack is more beneficial by good positioning before hand which requires micro. Zerg units are weaker in nature and thus you have to baby sit them a lot more than protoss units (they are stronger and able to survive longer).
As I see it, if the zerg knew the speed was slower he'd be able to micro more, but without knowing the zerg I feel doesn't benefit much from the speed. What I mean is that with slower speed it allows the zerg to micro differently than he normally would, such as splitting units more, burrow micro, more emphasis on pulling units back etc. Without the knowledge I feel the zerg is just going to play like normally, not really utilizing the increased micro potential. On the contrast, protoss basic micro that is pretty much required such as ffs, zlot micro, stalker micro all becomes straight up better.
I’m sure that all of you remember one of the most anticipated groups in Starcraft 2 history, 2013 WCS KR S1 GSL Ro16 Group B, which was played out on May 2nd. We had a fantastic audience that night that joined us to cheer for their favorite players (PartinG, Life, INnoVation, flash) as they pushed themselves to the limit to advance to the next round. Today, we would like to make an announcement regarding the game speed of the Ro16 Group B Final Match Set 1 (PartinG vs Life).
We have confirmed that the game speed had been changed from “Fastest” to “Faster” at 1 min 4 sec during the 1st set of the PartinG vs Life match and the game speed remained at “Faster” for the rest of the set. In StarCraft II, one participant of the game who is designated as a “Referee” in the lobby can adjust the game speed while the game is ongoing.
There are two default hotkeys for changing the game speed, which is the – key and the + key. We were not able to clarify the situation, but we assume that most likely, one of the game directors who was designated as a “Referee” may have pressed the – key while introducing StarTale_Life. We found that the game speed had changed at the “1 min 4 sec” of the game time by checking the replay and resume feature, and you can find this via our VODs.
(http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80085/?set=13 : 2 min 40 sec. You will find that the speed of the drones had been slowed down a bit after 2 min 40 sec.)
This is definitely our mistake and a huge factor that affected the match on that night. Therefore, we would like to apologize to PartinG, Life, SK Telecom T1, StarTale, and all other parties who were affected by this unfortunate issue.
Furthermore, we sincerely apologize to all the fans who visited Gangnam GOMTV Studio that night and also everyone who joined us during the live broadcast. GOMTV has informed SK Telecom T1 and StarTale about this matter and notified them of the details of this incident. This is something that will not happen again in the future.Since both players played under the same conditions, the match results will not be changed and a re-match will not be held in the future. (Both players did not request the re-match.)
In order to prevent the same mistake, we have changed the hotkeys which adjust the game speed. From now on, one game director will be in charge of the Loser’s map pick, creating a game, and inviting both the players and the 2nd game director to the game lobby. This 2nd game director will be in charge of checking the map version, game speed, and any other final checks for the participants of the game.
Again, we apologize for this incident and we will do our best to make sure this will not happen again in the future.
On May 17 2013 23:57 E.H Eager wrote: I agree that somebody would have noticed; there were thousands watching. Provide some proof?
Wow dude. Wow. I don't even know what to say. Psz noticed. Is Psz not somebody? What you basically said feels like to me saying "Gee if it was daytime wouldn't it be sunny outside?" While the sun is clearly shining brightly through the window.
I'm not sure about the provide proof part. You were an early post and Psz may have edited in his proof since then. But, your initial statement of why you are dubious of Psz claim is unbelievable.
On May 18 2013 00:27 BronzeKnee wrote: The real question here is, why is there even multiple game speeds?
This. Blizzard has already added all these practice/beginner modes vs AI and stuff where I believe the game-speed is automatically set to be a bit slower.
I´ve had this exact same thing happen to me in custom games, I even remember it happening when I was playing BW with mates on LAN. Sometimes it takes you a while to notice, something feels a different, your build feels off. I don´t know why you guys find it so shocking that "NO ONE NOTICED!?!?!?". Clearly it´s not that easy to immidiately catch. I´ve never gone a whole game without noticing, but those have been custom games. I´m sure that in a GSL match the last thing in your mind is gonna be "Did they host the game with the correct game speed?"
A thought like they won´t even cross their minds during a game with that much on the line.
GOM wrote: ... We have confirmed that the game speed had been changed from “Fastest” to “Faster” at 1 min 4 sec during the 1st set of the PartinG vs Life match and the game speed remained at “Faster” for the rest of the set. In StarCraft II, one participant of the game who is designated as a “Referee” in the lobby can adjust the game speed while the game is ongoing...
There are two default hotkeys for changing the game speed, which is the – key and the + key....
Unbelievable design flaw/oversight, I can almost guarantee that´s meant to only work when you´re watching a replay. Remove this retarded feature for good, it´s an old relic of a feature that never really had any use to begin with. Make this option only available in the practice modes. Not for real games, what´s the point?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mNM8lYZ.png)
