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On April 21 2013 10:32 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 04:38 iaguz wrote:
Details is that 512 turned out to be far too small a limit for WCS NA's qualifier. It functions on a first come first serve basis, it accepted more then 512 people registering and upon check in gives priority to those who registered earlier despite skill level. There are loads of diamond and below flotsam clogging up the registration that legitimately amazing players like jim (as well as loads of scrubby white folk like meself with decent *snort* NA GM ladder status) are not able to compete. MLG/blizzard fucked up majorly with this, extremely disappointing, especially for those coming from nations who got nothing from WCS this year.
One imagines that for Season 2 they fix this. On SotG, they said that maybe having entry fee was a good idea after all ($20 was high but $10 seemed good, maybe even just $5). Alternatively they could do what GOMTV does and give priority to pro gamers (or anyone) with an established and team first before randoms. Edit - I say it's not really MLG's fault directly. It's the fact that WCS in general seems a bit disorganized so far. Edit 2 - What I mean is, Blizzard didn't give MLG any directions or what they should do or "had to do". I mean, technically it is Blizzard's thing after all. They can't just give it to tournaments and tell them, they'll probably know how to handle it. Obviously if you give a tournament organizer a tournament to run and don't tell them how to do it, then there is potential for problems. While 512 1 bracket tournament over 1 day is silly, it's not really MLG's fault because Blizzard didn't exactly tell them how they should handle it (and again, since Blizzard did come up with WCS in the first place, they should direct it more). It's more of a hindsight thing potentially (MLG probably didn't expect these many problems in advance).
Well I guess Blizzard thought that MLG was capable to run a simple qualifying tournament!? It's hindsight to say that 1 tournament with 512 players isn't enough? Come on...
It just looks like MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible to run this and quite frankly they failed.
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On April 21 2013 10:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:
The saddest part in this entire ordeal is how there are such terrible players, and a possible account sharer/hacker, so deep in the tournament. People were saying how stacked this tournament was gonna be, but it turned out so that most legitimate regional pros were screwed out by these low master/diamond players.
Your wording implies that it was the low masters/diamond players fault, which would be extremely unfair.
Having gone through the ordeal I can say honestly I'd probably have been less pissed if I didn't get in, it was run terribly on the inside as well.
I blame the lack of a pay wall completely. point restrictions are ok, but where do you draw the line? I lost pretty quickly, I have over 1000 points in master league, I clearly was not up to the level of others. What points do you need to restrict it to to be fair? A lot of my issues involved came because the players that I was supposed to play in the loser's bracket left and it took 2 hours to get a walkover. I'm not the only one that experienced this. A pay wall would do a lot more to discourage these players from joining the tournament than requiring 1300 points in master league(my opponent was ranked higher than me in the ladder).
The problem is primarily that you have people who don't respect the competition or their fellow players. It's a lot easier to justify disrespect to yourself when you're not dropping money to do it.
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On April 21 2013 10:56 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:
The saddest part in this entire ordeal is how there are such terrible players, and a possible account sharer/hacker, so deep in the tournament. People were saying how stacked this tournament was gonna be, but it turned out so that most legitimate regional pros were screwed out by these low master/diamond players. Your wording implies that it was the low masters/diamond players fault, which would be extremely unfair. Having gone through the ordeal I can say honestly I'd probably have been less pissed if I didn't get in, it was run terribly on the inside as well. I blame the lack of a pay wall completely. point restrictions are ok, but where do you draw the line? I lost pretty quickly, I have over 1000 points in master league, I clearly was not up to the level of others. What points do you need to restrict it to to be fair? A lot of my issues involved came because the players that I was supposed to play in the loser's bracket left and it took 2 hours to get a walkover. I'm not the only one that experienced this. A pay wall would do a lot more to discourage these players from joining the tournament than requiring 1300 points in master league(my opponent was ranked higher than me in the ladder). The problem is primarily that you have people who don't respect the competition or their fellow players. It's a lot easier to justify disrespect to yourself when you're not dropping money to do it.
You're right, but I'm not implying that at all, the blame lies squarely at MLG for arranging it the way they did. What I meant was because of how it turned out we have the low tier players in the "Code S" qualifier in the NA region. Because the barrier of entry was non existent and the places so few the first come first serve basically shut out a lot of legitimate pros from even qualifying.
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On April 21 2013 10:56 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:32 Goldfish wrote:On April 21 2013 04:38 iaguz wrote:
Details is that 512 turned out to be far too small a limit for WCS NA's qualifier. It functions on a first come first serve basis, it accepted more then 512 people registering and upon check in gives priority to those who registered earlier despite skill level. There are loads of diamond and below flotsam clogging up the registration that legitimately amazing players like jim (as well as loads of scrubby white folk like meself with decent *snort* NA GM ladder status) are not able to compete. MLG/blizzard fucked up majorly with this, extremely disappointing, especially for those coming from nations who got nothing from WCS this year.
One imagines that for Season 2 they fix this. On SotG, they said that maybe having entry fee was a good idea after all ($20 was high but $10 seemed good, maybe even just $5). Alternatively they could do what GOMTV does and give priority to pro gamers (or anyone) with an established and team first before randoms. Edit - I say it's not really MLG's fault directly. It's the fact that WCS in general seems a bit disorganized so far. Edit 2 - What I mean is, Blizzard didn't give MLG any directions or what they should do or "had to do". I mean, technically it is Blizzard's thing after all. They can't just give it to tournaments and tell them, they'll probably know how to handle it. Obviously if you give a tournament organizer a tournament to run and don't tell them how to do it, then there is potential for problems. While 512 1 bracket tournament over 1 day is silly, it's not really MLG's fault because Blizzard didn't exactly tell them how they should handle it (and again, since Blizzard did come up with WCS in the first place, they should direct it more). It's more of a hindsight thing potentially (MLG probably didn't expect these many problems in advance). Well I guess Blizzard thought that MLG was capable to run a simple qualifying tournament!? It's hindsight to say that 1 tournament with 512 players isn't enough? Come on... It just looks like MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible to run this and quite frankly they failed.
Yes, I agree that MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible but the fault still lies with Blizzard.
It's still their big WCS thing and if they don't give tournament organizers directions they need to follow or how to do anything exactly, then the potential for problems will exist.
Also when I say hindsight, MLG probably didn't know how many would try to qualify or whatever. They didn't even set or use a "only masters or higher" can participate restriction.
I highly doubt MLG would have done all this had they know what the reaction would be. They haven't really had any experience running anything like this (their open brackets are usually LAN or if they're online, they were usually done in a small scale and usually with an entrance fee). That's what I meant by its hindsight problem by MLG (of course it is still their fault for not taking it too seriously).
However, the main fault still lies with Blizzard because WCS is such a "supposedly" huge deal but yet Blizzard just left it to tournament organizers to do whatever they want with WCS.
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On April 21 2013 10:56 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:32 Goldfish wrote:On April 21 2013 04:38 iaguz wrote:
Details is that 512 turned out to be far too small a limit for WCS NA's qualifier. It functions on a first come first serve basis, it accepted more then 512 people registering and upon check in gives priority to those who registered earlier despite skill level. There are loads of diamond and below flotsam clogging up the registration that legitimately amazing players like jim (as well as loads of scrubby white folk like meself with decent *snort* NA GM ladder status) are not able to compete. MLG/blizzard fucked up majorly with this, extremely disappointing, especially for those coming from nations who got nothing from WCS this year.
One imagines that for Season 2 they fix this. On SotG, they said that maybe having entry fee was a good idea after all ($20 was high but $10 seemed good, maybe even just $5). Alternatively they could do what GOMTV does and give priority to pro gamers (or anyone) with an established and team first before randoms. Edit - I say it's not really MLG's fault directly. It's the fact that WCS in general seems a bit disorganized so far. Edit 2 - What I mean is, Blizzard didn't give MLG any directions or what they should do or "had to do". I mean, technically it is Blizzard's thing after all. They can't just give it to tournaments and tell them, they'll probably know how to handle it. Obviously if you give a tournament organizer a tournament to run and don't tell them how to do it, then there is potential for problems. While 512 1 bracket tournament over 1 day is silly, it's not really MLG's fault because Blizzard didn't exactly tell them how they should handle it (and again, since Blizzard did come up with WCS in the first place, they should direct it more). It's more of a hindsight thing potentially (MLG probably didn't expect these many problems in advance). Well I guess Blizzard thought that MLG was capable to run a simple qualifying tournament!? It's hindsight to say that 1 tournament with 512 players isn't enough? Come on... It just looks like MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible to run this and quite frankly they failed.
Not like they didn't outsource their other tournament and yes it's poorly organized because they rushed it. They wanted to get the season going right away because Korea and the international tournaments were about to pick-up again and they want it to coincide.
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All of this could have been taken care of if planned ahead properly. Everyone knows that one qualifier for 16 spots for all of NA (and other parts of the world) is obviously not enough if you're only going to allow 512 or whatever people participate and it's first come first serve priority in registration. Obviously that's a mistake.
Ways this qualifier process for NA could have been done better:
1. Hold more than 1 qualifier. - I would have loved to see a more grassroots approach to this similar to what WCG used to do back in BW for WCG USA. Have some online tournaments for people in their own regions and some local tournaments that people can travel to (4 per part of NA). Take 8 from online qualifiers and 8 from local qualifiers (2 from each one) and have 1 final qualifying tournament where the top 8 go to the premier division and the bottom 8 get seeds into the challenger qualifier or division.
2. Have some sort of minimum qualification requirement. - Players should at least be in the Master division when signing up to qualify to even take part in the qualifiers. This will eliminate a lot of problems with player space in the tournaments.
3. Have more admins online - There are/were only 2 that were online during this whole thing and that's not enough. With how massive this thing is, they're probably getting sunk with messages from players and randoms. If there were more admins and more communication with the public, there wouldn't be mass confusion about when people are supposed to play matches and other important things.
4. Send a message to both MLG and Blizzard with your thoughts on how this was run and let them know what you think needs changed/fixed. Us ranting and raving on here is one thing, but going directly to the source and letting them know how the masses feel is another. If they get enough feedback about things, steps will more than likely be taken to fix the mistakes made and improve the process in the future.
5. Be constructive, not cynical - I know that this was done very poorly. But, just bashing MLG and/or Blizzard will get us all no where. It might feel great to do, but it won't help the cause at all. I don't like this qualification process or how things were handled any more than anyone else, but we need to stay constructive.
We should have made our voices/opinions known ahead of time when we knew there was only going to be one qualifier for the premier division instead of when that qualifier took place. We took too long to voice our opinions about it and there's probably nothing we can do now to change it this time, however we can let them know how we feel about it and maybe it'll be different next time.
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On April 21 2013 11:00 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:56 Noobity wrote:On April 21 2013 10:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:
The saddest part in this entire ordeal is how there are such terrible players, and a possible account sharer/hacker, so deep in the tournament. People were saying how stacked this tournament was gonna be, but it turned out so that most legitimate regional pros were screwed out by these low master/diamond players. Your wording implies that it was the low masters/diamond players fault, which would be extremely unfair. Having gone through the ordeal I can say honestly I'd probably have been less pissed if I didn't get in, it was run terribly on the inside as well. I blame the lack of a pay wall completely. point restrictions are ok, but where do you draw the line? I lost pretty quickly, I have over 1000 points in master league, I clearly was not up to the level of others. What points do you need to restrict it to to be fair? A lot of my issues involved came because the players that I was supposed to play in the loser's bracket left and it took 2 hours to get a walkover. I'm not the only one that experienced this. A pay wall would do a lot more to discourage these players from joining the tournament than requiring 1300 points in master league(my opponent was ranked higher than me in the ladder). The problem is primarily that you have people who don't respect the competition or their fellow players. It's a lot easier to justify disrespect to yourself when you're not dropping money to do it. You're right, but I'm not implying that at all, the blame lies squarely at MLG for arranging it the way they did. What I meant was because of how it turned out we have the low tier players in the "Code S" qualifier in the NA region. Because the barrier of entry was non existent and the places so few the first come first serve basically shut out a lot of legitimate pros from even qualifying.
Fair enough, I got you now. Don't disagree.
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Sad news for chinese players 
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After the mess ups with ESL in the EU qualifiers with starting times and auto checking in "top" players arbitrarily, you would hope American qualifier goes more smoothly? Nah, actually its way worse than the EU qualifier.
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Wow the one SC2 tournament I was excited to see take off and hoped would turn into THE must watch tournaments, and it turns out to be a disaster from the start... sigh.
I guess at the end of the day the Koreans will dominate everything either way, but this is still very disappointing.
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This seems like a really tragic situation. I hope MLG still has time to intervene somehow.
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On April 21 2013 10:32 Zath.erin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:02 Mauldo wrote:
So. MLG fucks Demuslim out of an invite, lets Catz lose to a known hacker, and "makes up for" inviting Koreans for the WCS NA tournament by only allowing one 512 man tournament and turning away legit players from pro-teams for the diamond noobs because, you know, they checked in first.
I'm usually the first to take to their defense, and the last person to drop the flag in defeat, but goddammit MLG. Seriously? In what world is a 512 man tourney enough? Even if it isn't all NA players, you had to have assumed that there'd be an exodus of players wanting the easy mode qualification for a WCS event.
I'm a staunch defender of the region lock, and have a serious problem with players from half-way across the world playing in a region they don't even live in, let alone visit for any solid amount of time. But if you're going to allow them in, at least have enough spots to put them all in. What in the fuck would have been the problem with a 1024 or even 2048 man bracket? You have the men to run it. Would it have really hurt you to give a couple hundred people byes into the round of 1024/512? That one, simple move would have saved this entire thread from having to be created. The trade off would have been one less screw up in exchange for your tournament admins running an admittedly larger tournament. But if you told Blizzard you would singlehandedly take care of WCS NA, guess what? You should handle WCS NA. Not half ass it like you have been.
I was already on the fence about catching the rest of the qualifiers (just got back from a prior engagement), but now I'm just going to fire up some Game of Thrones or something. I was willing to live with WCS NA actually meaning WCS Wherever, but you shot yourself in the foot after those jokes you called invites, and this just made my decision for me.
Worst part is, Blizzard is going to get flack for WCS NA being a joke, when it was MLG that screwed the dog on this one. I wouldn't have wanted to see them run a 1024 man tourny, it was headache inducing enough with only 512. They had a list of 16 or so admins but only 5 or so where ever on. Seemed like a lack of manpower.
Then they should not have accepted the job in the first place. You don't accept something and THEN say "well we lack mainpower so we will try to fit it all into something smaller then other ones".
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On April 21 2013 08:19 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Looking at the brackets I see two Chinese players, one Protoss called FruitsBasket and another called ZooTop... who are these players. I don't want to assume, but could it be?
FruitBasket is a unnotable amateur in our chinese forum.
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On April 21 2013 08:19 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Looking at the brackets I see two Chinese players, one Protoss called FruitsBasket and another called ZooTop... who are these players. I don't want to assume, but could it be?
what do you wan to say? ZOO is an chinese pro gaming team. and for FruitsBasket we are still not sure who he is. But what we do know is IG.JIM, IG.XY are not even listed in bracket!
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United States97276 Posts
Top got 3rd at WCS China last year as well so he seems to be pretty good
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On April 21 2013 11:02 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 10:56 Awesomeness wrote:On April 21 2013 10:32 Goldfish wrote:On April 21 2013 04:38 iaguz wrote:
Details is that 512 turned out to be far too small a limit for WCS NA's qualifier. It functions on a first come first serve basis, it accepted more then 512 people registering and upon check in gives priority to those who registered earlier despite skill level. There are loads of diamond and below flotsam clogging up the registration that legitimately amazing players like jim (as well as loads of scrubby white folk like meself with decent *snort* NA GM ladder status) are not able to compete. MLG/blizzard fucked up majorly with this, extremely disappointing, especially for those coming from nations who got nothing from WCS this year.
One imagines that for Season 2 they fix this. On SotG, they said that maybe having entry fee was a good idea after all ($20 was high but $10 seemed good, maybe even just $5). Alternatively they could do what GOMTV does and give priority to pro gamers (or anyone) with an established and team first before randoms. Edit - I say it's not really MLG's fault directly. It's the fact that WCS in general seems a bit disorganized so far. Edit 2 - What I mean is, Blizzard didn't give MLG any directions or what they should do or "had to do". I mean, technically it is Blizzard's thing after all. They can't just give it to tournaments and tell them, they'll probably know how to handle it. Obviously if you give a tournament organizer a tournament to run and don't tell them how to do it, then there is potential for problems. While 512 1 bracket tournament over 1 day is silly, it's not really MLG's fault because Blizzard didn't exactly tell them how they should handle it (and again, since Blizzard did come up with WCS in the first place, they should direct it more). It's more of a hindsight thing potentially (MLG probably didn't expect these many problems in advance). Well I guess Blizzard thought that MLG was capable to run a simple qualifying tournament!? It's hindsight to say that 1 tournament with 512 players isn't enough? Come on... It just looks like MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible to run this and quite frankly they failed. Yes, I agree that MLG wanted to use as few resources as possible but the fault still lies with Blizzard. It's still their big WCS thing and if they don't give tournament organizers directions they need to follow or how to do anything exactly, then the potential for problems will exist. Also when I say hindsight, MLG probably didn't know how many would try to qualify or whatever. They didn't even set or use a "only masters or higher" can participate restriction. I highly doubt MLG would have done all this had they know what the reaction would be. They haven't really had any experience running anything like this (their open brackets are usually LAN or if they're online, they were usually done in a small scale and usually with an entrance fee). That's what I meant by its hindsight problem by MLG (of course it is still their fault for not taking it too seriously). However, the main fault still lies with Blizzard because WCS is such a "supposedly" huge deal but yet Blizzard just left it to tournament organizers to do whatever they want with WCS.
Don't see how you can blame Blizzard for this tbh. They made this whole tournament system and were hoping at least the qualifiers could be arranged by the tournament organizers they put in charge for it.
Guess they were wrong and next time they have to make everything and people will boo once more when a certain issue arrived cause of their then locked qualification system.
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On April 21 2013 11:27 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Zoo got 3rd at WCS China last year as well so he seems to be pretty good
Zoo is the clan name.
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United States97276 Posts
On April 21 2013 11:28 swordboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 11:27 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Zoo got 3rd at WCS China last year as well so he seems to be pretty good Zoo is the clan name.
Sorry I meant Top
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ok this is stupid.
What were they thinking?
Tournaments should be about competition and skill level. I already had issue with they showing more games of foreigners on the main stage when some koreans are having some serious actions that we don't get to see.
now this?
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mlg bad they hv black hands
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EPT
