[SPL] Two men's argument - format of SPL - Page 4

Blargh

United States2103 Posts

April 12 2013 22:08 GMT

#61

Half and half is my personal preference. I definitely do like all-kill format more, but it can get tiring. The reason why I like all-kill more is because you do not see nearly as many mirror match-ups, which currently are pretty bad. Even TvT, which used to be pretty good in WoL is looking a bit "ehhhhhh" right now. PvP always sucks and always has.

But, PL format does at allow for a more "strategic" player system. It also allows the horribly balanced maps to be used, but that is partially why there are so many mirror match-ups to begin with.

Anyway, half-and-half is nice. And thank you for the videos!

bluQ

Germany1724 Posts

April 12 2013 22:10 GMT

#62

On April 13 2013 06:51 achan1058 wrote:

Show nested quote +

But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.

Or they meta it with a prepared sniper for race Y on map X. Thats why it's fun!

riyanme

Philippines940 Posts

April 12 2013 22:54 GMT

#63

preferred pl format. strongly disagrees its boring. what makes a game boring are players come unprepared.

as for the rants about mirror match ups, why not use other race if you think its boring? (for the team who "values" netizens call) as if that happens! mirror matches were there for a reason.

edit: all kill format doesnt really shows the team strength in general. 1 or 2 man "team" is isn't worth to be called a team. thats why its called proleague for that reason.

*though i admit sc2 is boring compared to bw. i cant find myself cheering/shouting as fight engages on.*

MateShade

Australia736 Posts

April 12 2013 23:25 GMT

#64

Much prefer proleague format. All-kill is... eh

vinsang1000

Belgium365 Posts

April 12 2013 23:31 GMT

#65

I really like the current format actually.

L3gendary

Canada1470 Posts

April 12 2013 23:44 GMT

#66

The pro-proleague guy didn't make very good arguments. Yes, it's better for the players but imo its more entertaining for the longer term fans. When I first started watching starcraft i prefered winner's league cause I only knew a couple of the best players but I gradually came to like proleague format more as I gained knowledge about the teams.

Proleague format allows the fans to get more of a connection to the team. They become fans of the team and not just the ace player. This makes watching non-ace players more interesting as you come to know them and you take an interest in their progress throughout the season. And the proleague format has more merit as a team competition. With winner's league you are basically just asking "Which team has the best player?" instead of "Which team has the deepest roster?".

TeslasPigeon

464 Posts

April 12 2013 23:45 GMT

#67

On April 13 2013 07:10 bluQ wrote:

Show nested quote +

Or they meta it with a prepared sniper for race Y on map X. Thats why it's fun!

But then the opposing team knows that you prepared a sniper with race Y, then the other team will prepare a counter sniper using race Z.

Now since X is a constant which is equal to the variables Y and Z, we must include the proleague factor PL. If we divide by R and subtract Z, X is now equal to Y times PL. But if PL is equal to or greater than 1, Y will approach Z.

Thus transforming the original equation X = (Y + Z) * PL into X = Y + Y, a mirror match.

It's basic math people.

Bobbias

Canada1373 Posts

April 12 2013 23:46 GMT

#68

I've always liked proleague. The idea that the league focuses heavily on the teams having a balanced roster of players appeals to me for a team league. It's in the name itself: Team League. All-kill format gives teams with a few top level players an advantage. Not necessarily an advantage that can't be overcome (just look at players like Tails who can seemingly snipe pretty much anyone), but it is still a distinct advantage. Not only does Proleague format downplay that advantage, but it gives us a chance see lesser known players in televised matches, which is good because it gives players a chance to gain more attention by having more chances to go out. You don't field players you are unsure of in an all-kill match unless you have no choice. In proleague you can afford to give your B teamers a chance to prove theselves once in a while without risking as much.

I'm by no means saying that all-kill is bad. It has it's good points. It is generally more exciting since there is more on the line, and you get a chance to see players possibly roll through an entire team's roster for the all-kill, or even better, the reverse all-kill, but I believe we need a balanced representation of team leagues. Proleague is one of the only leagues that has a format that really truly emphasizes the team aspect over the individual players. Anyone remember "Team Taeja"?

mechengineer123

Ukraine711 Posts

April 12 2013 23:49 GMT

#69

I used to think AK was the best, but after you've watched the same couple of players carry for a year or longer, it gets kind of boring.

GTR

51506 Posts

April 13 2013 00:12 GMT

#70

On April 12 2013 15:46 dtz wrote:
I think the regular season format is alright. The mix of PL and WL is already good.

But the playoff format during the last few seasons of BW was just dumb and i think was one of the reason ( not main reason but part of) that viewership of PL was down

Basically it made the more successful team( who is usually the more popular teams with the better players) wait in the final. So SKT1 was the regular season winner. They had the most fans. But that means they had to wait in the final and only play BO1 when every other round was Bo3.

That's so much viewership wasted.Imagine if the NBA makes Miami Heat wait in the final instead of them starting from the same round as everyone else and make the NBA Final Bo3

I actually don't know this season's playoff format but I hope they have changed it.

It's a logistics issue more than anything that the final has to be a Bo1. Unfortunate, but no real way around it.
As for seeding the #1 team directly into the final, it's a common occurrence in all Korean sports leagues, whether it would be football, baseball or basketball. It's designed to make the regular season worth playing for.

StarVe

Germany13591 Posts

April 13 2013 00:17 GMT

#71

I prefer Proleague format nowadays, one of the reasons why I usually watched EG Masters Cup over IPTL.
It rewards depth more and you get to see more players instead of mostly the aces.

Bo1 isn't ideal, but you've got to deal with it.

SkimGuy

Canada709 Posts

April 13 2013 00:27 GMT

#72

Needs to be Proleague so you can have players like Brave WhO play non stop on 1 map and get sent out on it every time, makes for lulzy strats lol

I was talking about BW Brave: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=549&part=games&league=standard

Warpath

Canada1242 Posts

April 13 2013 00:47 GMT

#73

I love All Kill, but it definitely isn't something for 100% of the season

lolmlg

619 Posts

April 13 2013 00:48 GMT

#74

All-kill format is REALLY EXCITING... when there's one round of it per season. I haven't been able to pay attention to a single full season of GSTL since its inception.

LighT.

Canada4501 Posts

April 13 2013 00:55 GMT

#75

On April 13 2013 06:51 achan1058 wrote:

Show nested quote +

But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.

Simple.
Have the coaches meet up at the KeSPA office once every week when the line ups are made.
Coaches take turns placing the players on the maps using a (122112211221 formula) with the rule of 1 mirror match maximum per choosing per match
So for example...Samsung vs KT
1st pick Jangbi <Neo Planet S> 2nd Pick: Flash
4th Pick: Reality <Akion Wastes) 3rd Pick: Zest
5th pick: Stork <Fighting Spirit> 6th: Stork

So every per match..you are guaranteed for 4 Non-mirror match ups per week.
Pros:
- ZvZ/PvP specialists are still kept with use
- less mirror

Cons:
- less TvT
- less ZvZ/PvP to people who enjoy watching those.

LighT.

Canada4501 Posts

April 13 2013 00:56 GMT

#76

Double post.

Fischbacher

Canada666 Posts

April 13 2013 01:05 GMT

#77

I like proleague format a lot more because it rewards depth, it allows more players to play (8 to 14 as opposed to 5 to 8 or 6 to 10), it allows me to see players I don't typically see in individual leagues (which is frankly the main reason I watch team leagues) and it prevents a single player from being able to win the game for his team. That's actually my main pet peeve with the AK system - all kills are dumb and boring, IMO. Except reverse all kills - those are still dumb but at least they are exiting.

I would actually be interested in seeing a form of hybrid format tested out where the first match is set in advance (like in AK). After the first match, the losing team chose a map, the wining team chose a player that hasn't played yet and the losing team then picks an opponent for that player (who also hasn't played yet). This would give the trailing team an advantage, allow more snipers and team strategies while still preventing a player from AKing.

MetalPanda

Canada1152 Posts

April 13 2013 01:53 GMT

#78

I prefer all-kill by far, feels more exciting and creates storylines by itself. Quality of matches do seem to be higher in that kind too. Seeing more or less players is a non-issue to me.

sluggaslamoo

Australia4494 Posts

April 19 2013 08:23 GMT

#79

They completely missed some points.

1. Whether you enjoy AK more or not, All Kill format is simply unsustainable

Team Flash and Team Jaedong took great tolls on their respective ace players.

Not only did bad players feel bad about not having televised matches, Ace players would have to deal with a huge amount of depression and anxiety due to the responsibility they had for their teams. The Aces would play for 2 and a half hours at a physical disadvantage against a barrage of snipe builds designed by multiple special coaches.

I'm not saying we should have no winners league, but the seasons should be kept short and far apart to allow aces to recouperate. The only good thing about winners league is showing how truly remarkable the top players are, out thinking multiple players and coaches with no preparation while playing for hours against fresh opponents.

2. The ACE match hype myth

Ace matches still happen in SPL because often Ace confidence mattered much more than what you put down on paper, and also its much harder to predict who you will face, so preparation is not as easy. Nothing worse than sending out a PvT sniper against a Zerg and losing a whole bunch of fans in the process.

It was Winners League where all the sniping happened, get all your 5 players to prepare builds against Flash and one is bound to win, often times due to this, you would miss Ace vs Ace matches. It doesn't get better, there's nothing worse than seeing Jaedong fight against 4 snipers and then just lose in 7 mins to Flash because his brain is fried.

PL is much better because you still get to see the Aces fight against each other, and they are feeling fresh and confident. On top of that you had the hype of "is the coach really going to send out Flash/Bisu/JD/Stork?" then when they do get selected everyone goes nuts, its awesome.

When Bisu was losing matches, he still got sent out for the Ace match because of his ability to play under pressure and often win against all odds. In Winners League you didn't get this same sensation.