You know we've had the same arguments going around these forums when it comes to the GSTL, PL, etc. There will always be room for winners league all-kills, but two rounds of it is more than enough. Here's an old saying, "Your team is only as good as your worst player."
Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Poll: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
Proleague (208)
71%
All-Kill (87)
29%
295 total votes
Your vote: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
All kill format is so much more tense because you dont know what player is going to come out. Plus its always awesome to see someone go on a hot streak and get all kill.
On April 12 2013 15:00 mrRoflpwn wrote: All kill format is so much more tense because you dont know what player is going to come out. Plus its always awesome to see someone go on a hot streak and get all kill.
I'm prob crazy for thinking this but unless it's like a reverse AK I don't like to see them. I like seeing a wider variety of players, and 4 straight wins makes me a little sad that I don't get to see them. After the first 1 or 2 games a player wins it's no longer about specialized builds or snipers, just throwing out someone in hopes of stopping the streak and the games turn more generic.
I definitely appreciate winner's league when it's more back and forth though.
Personally I prefer the Proleague format, it rewards having a deep line-up and allows for map specific strategies. It also allows for less orthodox maps in the map pool, which can create interesting games.
They tackled it pretty well... Winners league is more appealing but proleague format is eaier on the players.
Right now..as much as the players may hate it.. this isnt about the players. its about growing the culture of esports in korea, winning back all the fans that were in bw and attracting the new gens proleague format mirror matches arent helping.
On April 12 2013 14:16 StarStruck wrote: You know we've had the same arguments going around these forums when it comes to the GSTL, PL, etc. There will always be room for winners league all-kills, but two rounds of it is more than enough. Here's an old saying, "Your team is only as good as your worst player."
I massively prefer proleague format. You get to see a huge amount of players every time. Even a 4-0 lets you see 8 different players. It rewards the team with more depth instead of the team with a player who is having a really good day. All-kills are boring especially 4-0 all kills. It also makes it so map balance doesn't really matter while with the all kill format you can't try out really insane maps or it might just make it so one race never comes out. That is another thing I like about proleague format they make the teams play 1 of each race. With a lot of the Kespa teams fielding 4 Protoss every match with all-kill format it would have been very possible to just have straight PvPs in matches between certain teams.
I understand how PL format gives players more of an opportunity to play, but having a best of 7 AK format means that it's relatively the same thing is it not? Sure you don't have a dedicated ace match, but there's still the potential of a variety pf different players to play and 4-0's happen in both formats regardless.
Plus AK is far more exciting I would think in almost everyone's books
What Kim Chul Min says is correct but seriously, too much Winner's League drove me nuts back in the BW days. 2 rounds is more than enough for me, I guess the problem was more of Flash/Bisu/JD being hardcore carries (Stats AK WJ+SKT1 was pure beauty though) and it started getting stale.
IMO, the biggest problem at the moment is the presetting of matches. Maybe it's me not liking mirrors but when I glance at the lineups and see 3 or 4 mirrors, it just becomes a massive turn-off for me and I don't even bother watching it.
I think the regular season format is alright. The mix of PL and WL is already good.
But the playoff format during the last few seasons of BW was just dumb and i think was one of the reason ( not main reason but part of) that viewership of PL was down
Basically it made the more successful team( who is usually the more popular teams with the better players) wait in the final. So SKT1 was the regular season winner. They had the most fans. But that means they had to wait in the final and only play BO1 when every other round was Bo3.
That's so much viewership wasted.Imagine if the NBA makes Miami Heat wait in the final instead of them starting from the same round as everyone else and make the NBA Final Bo3
I actually don't know this season's playoff format but I hope they have changed it.
On April 12 2013 15:39 Sedzz wrote: I understand how PL format gives players more of an opportunity to play, but having a best of 7 AK format means that it's relatively the same thing is it not? Sure you don't have a dedicated ace match, but there's still the potential of a variety pf different players to play and 4-0's happen in both formats regardless.
Plus AK is far more exciting I would think in almost everyone's books
I used to think so, but not anymore. Massively prefer PL's format.
On April 12 2013 15:39 Sedzz wrote: I understand how PL format gives players more of an opportunity to play, but having a best of 7 AK format means that it's relatively the same thing is it not? Sure you don't have a dedicated ace match, but there's still the potential of a variety pf different players to play and 4-0's happen in both formats regardless.
Plus AK is far more exciting I would think in almost everyone's books
Allkill is 5-8 players. Proleague is 8-14.
I'm curious in the history of broodwar did anyone actually play 14 players? It would be both teams using aces that weren't in the original lineups.
PL needs to have a somewhat balanced map pool for all races though. Or at least rock-paper-scissors map. If it's too heavily favoured in one race, then it's just mirror fests which can be boring/annoying.
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Examples of all these b-teamers playing in Proleague?
On April 12 2013 15:39 Sedzz wrote: I understand how PL format gives players more of an opportunity to play, but having a best of 7 AK format means that it's relatively the same thing is it not? Sure you don't have a dedicated ace match, but there's still the potential of a variety pf different players to play and 4-0's happen in both formats regardless.
Plus AK is far more exciting I would think in almost everyone's books
Allkill is 5-8 players. Proleague is 8-14.
I'm curious in the history of broodwar did anyone actually play 14 players? It would be both teams using aces that weren't in the original lineups.
That's true. Personally I like the way it is now, good mix-up. If its currently 4 PL 2 WL maybe they could trial 3PL 3 WL?
On April 12 2013 15:07 Pursuit_ wrote: Personally I prefer the Proleague format, it rewards having a deep line-up and allows for map specific strategies. It also allows for less orthodox maps in the map pool, which can create interesting games.
## this.
I also think its necessary that a lot of players get exposure. Just remember when PL cut the format from 7 to 5 games? there were lots of ppl resigning cause they didnt see thenmself getting into the lineup consistently. Perfective : (((((((
In PL the better team with the better lineup and the better strategies is winning while in AK its more about having 1-2 very good players. I am a lot more excited for the PL format - I dont evven watch AK tournaments because it annoys the hell out of me to see teams with 1-2 good players dominating and winning the whole league. Just remember the days with Team MVP and DRG. They never got more than 1#-2 maps until DRG showed up as the ace and won the whole thing. It just didnt feel as if MVP deserved it. It was more about being a non-teamleague which was always won by DRG. (and he deserved it!).
I disagree with the all-kill format being better for the viewers. Because they WONT see the start player, since they get sent out as Ace(last).
And with a sucky format like a bo7 all-kill like the GSTL is using for the group play it favors the more top heavy teams. Bo9 is were it should be with an all-kill imo, then we get to see a much more strategic set of play.
But all in all, I would much prefer changing the format for each round for PL. Since I love both formats.
Edit: Pursuit_ wrote brings up a good point with the maps. The PL format favors putting in new maps and testing them out for balance. Since it's up for the teams to decide what player and race to put out on the map.
I like AK bo9 > PL format > AK bo7. I prefer the team strategy used in AK more than PL. PL is a lot of guess work and meta gaming and there is no decisive decisions needed to be made beyond who will play ace. Whereas AK you can use prepared snipers (if a certain player comes out or starter loses), map elimination and try to force out particular players to weaken a team. Though I say I like AK bo9 more, it's only by a little bit compared to PL format. I really dislike bo7 All-kill though.
If not for the constant mirrors, I'd actually be fine with mostly PL format. Winners league is fun to see though when it does come around...and you see some teams that do badly in PL format come out on top in winners.
I prefer the standard Proleague format by far but it's probably good to have a little bit of the Winner's Format. If you only have Winner's Format in place, It's a lot harder for those "hard working" up and coming players to get the TV exposure they need to get used to the whole deal and also to make any fans and I don't think that helps player versatility or the scene in general. It's nice to see fresh blood now and then. I think the mirror match-ups are improving in HotS and plenty of great games involve at least one non-star player who is still likely part of the A-team but would only be used as something like a fourth choice in a Winner's Format. I think it's more exciting to see the "big" players play sometimes and even more often but not so, so much more often, otherwise it just becomes --- Person A: "Oh hey, did you see the game between Flash and Jaedong last week?" Person B: "Hmm? You mean on Saturday or on Monday's Proleague? Which?" Person A: "No, it was in one of their two show-matches that week" Person B: "Ohh, the IPL one?" Person A: "Well, it's Blizzard's now after all, so whatever they're calling it. Still IPL? I've forgotten. AGAIN."
Oh dear. --- Besides which, it's good for the star players to get a rest more often. It's good if they don't ALWAYS have the responsibility of going first in the format, it is nice for them to be able to rest more and nice to give them more time to prepare for specific matches, even if only by practising on the map. Do people really want what happened to Jaedong at Hwaseung Oz to happen to more players more often? KT FlashIsTired incoming.
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Examples of all these b-teamers playing in Proleague?
I could name names but honestly it would just lead to an off-topic debate. The point is there are obviously b-teamers playing in proleague just like every other league b/c most players can't be Flash or Rain.
I like the Proleague format because it's very different from every other team league and I get to see a wider variety of players.
I guess every sport goes through this as a growing pain of whether it's better for the fans to have a few big stars or a lot of good players. You can name examples where it's better to have a few big stars (i.e. golf, most Olympic events) and examples where it has made things stagnant (i.e. men's tennis, basketball). You can name examples where it's better to have a wide variety of pretty good players (i.e. American football) and examples where it's destabilizing to have few distinct stars (i.e. women's tennis, baseball).
I like the variety but I prefer more proleague format than winner's league.
I watched a lot of GSTL, and AKs usually aren't that exciting (unless NS Hoseo is doing it with <insert unknown player that came out of no where and starts to own> of course (which happened a lot when NS Hoseo first came into GSTL, a lot of players like Seal and Sage performed well there)). (Somehow NS Hoseo was almost unstoppable when they first debuted, and that was definitely one of the most fun I had watching GSTL.)
Besides the possibility of an unknown player coming out of no where and destroying an entire team that was "favorite" to win (and "only" if they do it consistently like with NS Hoseo in the first season which was the underdog but dominated the group stages, but sadly lost in the play offs), I prefer Proleague format because you depend on more players and it's more exciting to see how certain players progress or get better.
With EGTL for example, if one player carried the team, that wouldn't be as fun as everyone putting their weight into it right?
Yes, Winner's format also has the "potential" for all players to contribute to the team but Proleague's format guarantees it.
Though, the appeal of Winner's format is to see how much a player can completely own everything up. That is the one advantage over Proleague format (but it can get old and sometimes it feels too random, especially when one player manages to completely 4-0 a team one day, but then lose on the first game another day).
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Examples of all these b-teamers playing in Proleague?
I think Proleague is better. It favors an overall stable team with good depth, preparation, and coaching staff. It's also more fun as a fan of a team to watch at least 4 players from your roster every gameday.
With that said, I like they way Proleague is doing it with having 2 rounds with all-kill format to change it up a little. But a teamleague shouldn't be decided by AK format like GSTL. Like look when MVP won GSTL and came like second or something too in 2011, it was pretty much all cuz of DongRaeGu. Their depth sucked, preperation was super bad from players and the coach because their tactic was to sacrifice every player they had in hope to get a win before DongRaeGu had to save the day. So awful.
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Poll: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
Proleague (208)
71%
All-Kill (87)
29%
295 total votes
Your vote: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
All-kill format is subpar to me. The games simply will not be as good. If players prepare a specific map for a specific opponent, the chances of a quality game ARE higher. There's no way around it.
Cool video. I've always particularly enjoyed how the PL format allows for more up-and-coming players to train and get the opportunity to prepare for a specific match, it allows for the creation of a certain class of players that otherwise would never get the spotlight. All-Kill is awesome but it's far too top heavy to be a constant format, and I feel somewhat tired watching GSTL because of it.
The mix SPL has is great, with WL coming in sometimes but not being the constant format. There is a lot of variety in games and prepared strategies that can only happen in a set-match format like that. Also it's way more cool for FPL.
TBH I enjoy proleague format way way more than winners league. But I do understand the excitement people may get from winners league. I honestly think that they should not favor one over the others. As both casters explained (though the guy on the left makes it sound like regular format is boring for fans, which it is definitely not) both have their pros and cons, and I really like that kespa uses both this season. Maybe splitting it 3/3 instead of 4/2 next season may be a good idea. Maybe even 2/4 towards winners league since playoffs are regular format.
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Examples of all these b-teamers playing in Proleague?
I could name names but honestly it would just lead to an off-topic debate. The point is there are obviously b-teamers playing in proleague just like every other league b/c most players can't be Flash or Rain.
Just because somebody isn't a top code S player doesn't mean that they're a b-teamer. It's not like we have ACE anymore; all teams are fielding players capable of taking down most other players on other teams on a good day.
proleague format. Allows of more interesting games with special strats prepared against your opponent. AK format leads to boring games as the winner of the first game will get sniped by opposing team, leading him to play standard most of the time. Which in turn leads to, who plays standard the best. ZvTs are Muta/ling/bling vs MMMM all day.
I want clan war format. 4 bo3 1v1 and 1 bo3 2v2. Mostly because I am not a fan of bo1. Aside from that I prefer the All kill format as it needs a really good preparation and prediction of what the other side will do. While PL preparations are really easy compared to that. Of course the advantage/disadvantage will be highly prepared games.
I can watch both though, but prefer Allkill, because it is more of a challenge for the team itself and involves the whole team preparing for it. While the other is just a bo9 where every set player just has to prepare a map.
I used to love allkill format, but now I actually hate it. It's just incredibly uninteresting to me. Allkills are cool for the player performing it, but as a spectator it's a bit dull to me. I used to really dislike proleague format, but it has grown a substantial amount, and I really approve of it now.
Some people like one, some like the other - there should be a balance, and I really like what this season of Proleague has brought (4 rounds of proleague format, 2 rounds of allkill). I hope they keep this hybrid version
The Team wins in Proleague (all team need to work hard to win and 6 players have an opportunity) The Player wins in Winnersleague (ace player need to work hard to win and only there is no guruntee that other players will play and as we saw when FXO won GSTL Lucky and Leenock practiced really hard and were a bit upset not to play)
I feel SPL can be improved by: - decreasing # of mirror matches - increasing the map pool so you have a mix of maps to play each week instead of the same old 7
And can be further popularized by: - having fans vote on which match up they would most like to see a week ahead of time for Set 1 - more interaction with the crowd
ESports at the moment shouldnt be catering to the players but to the sport because it's not as well built up in Korea as BW was.
On April 12 2013 14:47 Evil_Sheep wrote: Proleague format is boring: endless mirror matches and a lot of subpar matches. With the current format, teams have to field 6 players each match which means teams need at least 8-9 players for sufficient depth, if not more. The result is a lot of low quality matches between b-teamers, or mismatches between aces and b-teamers.
All-kill format is better, but I think what might be even better is a hybrid format: first 3 matches in proleague format with loser's map pick to pre-empt all the mirror matching, the next 3 in all-kill format, and the last being an ace match. This means we'd get to watch more ace-quality games without completely giving up the unique proleague format which does enable the players to get guaranteed games.
Poll: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
Proleague (208)
71%
All-Kill (87)
29%
295 total votes
Your vote: Do you prefer Proleague format or All-Kill?
I argue that more AK makes it more boring because you'll have to do a ton of improv which means that being prepared is less important, and I find that it's always cool to read interviews about how players prepared specific builds or gamestyles tailored to their opponent.
On April 13 2013 06:23 LighT. wrote: I feel SPL can be improved by: - decreasing # of mirror matches - increasing the map pool so you have a mix of maps to play each week instead of the same old 7
And can be further popularized by: - having fans vote on which match up they would most like to see a week ahead of time for Set 1 - more interaction with the crowd
ESports at the moment shouldnt be catering to the players but to the sport because it's not as well built up in Korea as BW was.
But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.
Half and half is my personal preference. I definitely do like all-kill format more, but it can get tiring. The reason why I like all-kill more is because you do not see nearly as many mirror match-ups, which currently are pretty bad. Even TvT, which used to be pretty good in WoL is looking a bit "ehhhhhh" right now. PvP always sucks and always has.
But, PL format does at allow for a more "strategic" player system. It also allows the horribly balanced maps to be used, but that is partially why there are so many mirror match-ups to begin with.
Anyway, half-and-half is nice. And thank you for the videos!
On April 13 2013 06:23 LighT. wrote: I feel SPL can be improved by: - decreasing # of mirror matches - increasing the map pool so you have a mix of maps to play each week instead of the same old 7
And can be further popularized by: - having fans vote on which match up they would most like to see a week ahead of time for Set 1 - more interaction with the crowd
ESports at the moment shouldnt be catering to the players but to the sport because it's not as well built up in Korea as BW was.
But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.
Or they meta it with a prepared sniper for race Y on map X. Thats why it's fun!
preferred pl format. strongly disagrees its boring. what makes a game boring are players come unprepared.
as for the rants about mirror match ups, why not use other race if you think its boring? (for the team who "values" netizens call) as if that happens! mirror matches were there for a reason.
edit: all kill format doesnt really shows the team strength in general. 1 or 2 man "team" is isn't worth to be called a team. thats why its called proleague for that reason.
*though i admit sc2 is boring compared to bw. i cant find myself cheering/shouting as fight engages on.*
The pro-proleague guy didn't make very good arguments. Yes, it's better for the players but imo its more entertaining for the longer term fans. When I first started watching starcraft i prefered winner's league cause I only knew a couple of the best players but I gradually came to like proleague format more as I gained knowledge about the teams.
Proleague format allows the fans to get more of a connection to the team. They become fans of the team and not just the ace player. This makes watching non-ace players more interesting as you come to know them and you take an interest in their progress throughout the season. And the proleague format has more merit as a team competition. With winner's league you are basically just asking "Which team has the best player?" instead of "Which team has the deepest roster?".
On April 13 2013 06:23 LighT. wrote: I feel SPL can be improved by: - decreasing # of mirror matches - increasing the map pool so you have a mix of maps to play each week instead of the same old 7
And can be further popularized by: - having fans vote on which match up they would most like to see a week ahead of time for Set 1 - more interaction with the crowd
ESports at the moment shouldnt be catering to the players but to the sport because it's not as well built up in Korea as BW was.
But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.
Or they meta it with a prepared sniper for race Y on map X. Thats why it's fun!
But then the opposing team knows that you prepared a sniper with race Y, then the other team will prepare a counter sniper using race Z.
Now since X is a constant which is equal to the variables Y and Z, we must include the proleague factor PL. If we divide by R and subtract Z, X is now equal to Y times PL. But if PL is equal to or greater than 1, Y will approach Z.
Thus transforming the original equation X = (Y + Z) * PL into X = Y + Y, a mirror match.
I've always liked proleague. The idea that the league focuses heavily on the teams having a balanced roster of players appeals to me for a team league. It's in the name itself: Team League. All-kill format gives teams with a few top level players an advantage. Not necessarily an advantage that can't be overcome (just look at players like Tails who can seemingly snipe pretty much anyone), but it is still a distinct advantage. Not only does Proleague format downplay that advantage, but it gives us a chance see lesser known players in televised matches, which is good because it gives players a chance to gain more attention by having more chances to go out. You don't field players you are unsure of in an all-kill match unless you have no choice. In proleague you can afford to give your B teamers a chance to prove theselves once in a while without risking as much.
I'm by no means saying that all-kill is bad. It has it's good points. It is generally more exciting since there is more on the line, and you get a chance to see players possibly roll through an entire team's roster for the all-kill, or even better, the reverse all-kill, but I believe we need a balanced representation of team leagues. Proleague is one of the only leagues that has a format that really truly emphasizes the team aspect over the individual players. Anyone remember "Team Taeja"?
On April 12 2013 15:46 dtz wrote: I think the regular season format is alright. The mix of PL and WL is already good.
But the playoff format during the last few seasons of BW was just dumb and i think was one of the reason ( not main reason but part of) that viewership of PL was down
Basically it made the more successful team( who is usually the more popular teams with the better players) wait in the final. So SKT1 was the regular season winner. They had the most fans. But that means they had to wait in the final and only play BO1 when every other round was Bo3.
That's so much viewership wasted.Imagine if the NBA makes Miami Heat wait in the final instead of them starting from the same round as everyone else and make the NBA Final Bo3
I actually don't know this season's playoff format but I hope they have changed it.
It's a logistics issue more than anything that the final has to be a Bo1. Unfortunate, but no real way around it. As for seeding the #1 team directly into the final, it's a common occurrence in all Korean sports leagues, whether it would be football, baseball or basketball. It's designed to make the regular season worth playing for.
I prefer Proleague format nowadays, one of the reasons why I usually watched EG Masters Cup over IPTL. It rewards depth more and you get to see more players instead of mostly the aces.
All-kill format is REALLY EXCITING... when there's one round of it per season. I haven't been able to pay attention to a single full season of GSTL since its inception.
On April 13 2013 06:23 LighT. wrote: I feel SPL can be improved by: - decreasing # of mirror matches - increasing the map pool so you have a mix of maps to play each week instead of the same old 7
And can be further popularized by: - having fans vote on which match up they would most like to see a week ahead of time for Set 1 - more interaction with the crowd
ESports at the moment shouldnt be catering to the players but to the sport because it's not as well built up in Korea as BW was.
But how do you decrease the number of mirrors? If a given map X favours a given race Y, then it is likely that both sides knows this, and send race Y to play it.
Simple. Have the coaches meet up at the KeSPA office once every week when the line ups are made. Coaches take turns placing the players on the maps using a (122112211221 formula) with the rule of 1 mirror match maximum per choosing per match So for example...Samsung vs KT 1st pick Jangbi <Neo Planet S> 2nd Pick: Flash 4th Pick: Reality <Akion Wastes) 3rd Pick: Zest 5th pick: Stork <Fighting Spirit> 6th: Stork
So every per match..you are guaranteed for 4 Non-mirror match ups per week. Pros: - ZvZ/PvP specialists are still kept with use - less mirror
Cons: - less TvT - less ZvZ/PvP to people who enjoy watching those.
I like proleague format a lot more because it rewards depth, it allows more players to play (8 to 14 as opposed to 5 to 8 or 6 to 10), it allows me to see players I don't typically see in individual leagues (which is frankly the main reason I watch team leagues) and it prevents a single player from being able to win the game for his team. That's actually my main pet peeve with the AK system - all kills are dumb and boring, IMO. Except reverse all kills - those are still dumb but at least they are exiting.
I would actually be interested in seeing a form of hybrid format tested out where the first match is set in advance (like in AK). After the first match, the losing team chose a map, the wining team chose a player that hasn't played yet and the losing team then picks an opponent for that player (who also hasn't played yet). This would give the trailing team an advantage, allow more snipers and team strategies while still preventing a player from AKing.
I prefer all-kill by far, feels more exciting and creates storylines by itself. Quality of matches do seem to be higher in that kind too. Seeing more or less players is a non-issue to me.
1. Whether you enjoy AK more or not, All Kill format is simply unsustainable
Team Flash and Team Jaedong took great tolls on their respective ace players.
Not only did bad players feel bad about not having televised matches, Ace players would have to deal with a huge amount of depression and anxiety due to the responsibility they had for their teams. The Aces would play for 2 and a half hours at a physical disadvantage against a barrage of snipe builds designed by multiple special coaches.
I'm not saying we should have no winners league, but the seasons should be kept short and far apart to allow aces to recouperate. The only good thing about winners league is showing how truly remarkable the top players are, out thinking multiple players and coaches with no preparation while playing for hours against fresh opponents.
2. The ACE match hype myth
Ace matches still happen in SPL because often Ace confidence mattered much more than what you put down on paper, and also its much harder to predict who you will face, so preparation is not as easy. Nothing worse than sending out a PvT sniper against a Zerg and losing a whole bunch of fans in the process.
It was Winners League where all the sniping happened, get all your 5 players to prepare builds against Flash and one is bound to win, often times due to this, you would miss Ace vs Ace matches. It doesn't get better, there's nothing worse than seeing Jaedong fight against 4 snipers and then just lose in 7 mins to Flash because his brain is fried.
PL is much better because you still get to see the Aces fight against each other, and they are feeling fresh and confident. On top of that you had the hype of "is the coach really going to send out Flash/Bisu/JD/Stork?" then when they do get selected everyone goes nuts, its awesome.
When Bisu was losing matches, he still got sent out for the Ace match because of his ability to play under pressure and often win against all odds. In Winners League you didn't get this same sensation.
the only real issue you guys are having with PL format is mirror match. That really has something to do with the state of the game rather than the format itself. Remember when the early hybrid league was full of protosses all day everyday? Wasnt that time the height of WoL protoss? It's exactly the same now imo. Dont blame the format, blame the game
On April 19 2013 21:05 Arceus wrote: the only real issue you guys are having with PL format is mirror match. That really has something to do with the state of the game rather than the format itself. Remember when the early hybrid league was full of protosses all day everyday? Wasnt that time the height of WoL protoss? It's exactly the same now imo. Dont blame the format, blame the game
it's due to the wacky maps that PL uses which don't care about balance i.e. have one race that is favoured and thus sent out more
On April 19 2013 21:05 Arceus wrote: the only real issue you guys are having with PL format is mirror match. That really has something to do with the state of the game rather than the format itself. Remember when the early hybrid league was full of protosses all day everyday? Wasnt that time the height of WoL protoss? It's exactly the same now imo. Dont blame the format, blame the game
it's due to the wacky maps that PL uses which don't care about balance i.e. have one race that is favoured and thus sent out more
my point is that the number of protosses in SPL lineups every week is kinda absurd it cant be unseen. At this stage, it's easier for maps to be advantageous for them. See Flying's recent match on Naro Station to see how abusive toss could look like, or Stork massing VoidRay on Belshir and some other maps.
And somehow you guys automatically label KeSPA maps wacky without even watching the game. Meanwhile Planet S made both GSL & ladder. Oh and I heard every zerg picks Whirlwind in the GSL right, everyone allin on Icarus right? (dont get me wrong, I enjoy every games on those maps, only hate stereotypical shit like Belshir Vestige)
On April 19 2013 21:05 Arceus wrote: the only real issue you guys are having with PL format is mirror match. That really has something to do with the state of the game rather than the format itself. Remember when the early hybrid league was full of protosses all day everyday? Wasnt that time the height of WoL protoss? It's exactly the same now imo. Dont blame the format, blame the game
it's due to the wacky maps that PL uses which don't care about balance i.e. have one race that is favoured and thus sent out more
my point is that the number of protosses in SPL lineups every week is kinda absurd it cant be unseen. At this stage, it's easier for maps to be advantageous for them. See Flying's recent match on Naro Station to see how abusive toss could look like, or Stork massing VoidRay on Belshir and some other maps.
And somehow you guys automatically label KeSPA maps wacky without even watching the game. Meanwhile Planet S made both GSL & ladder. Oh and I heard every zerg picks Whirlwind in the GSL right?
lol i watch plenty of games dude. kespa maps are definitely wacky, it's been confirmed before by official sources i.e. mapmakers and kespa interviews etc that they don't care so much about map balance but rather concepts, which will lead to wacky maps.
neo planet S is actually not well balanced when looking at TLPD stats on it, but it's one of the better ones. you can't deny things like arkanoid and fighting spirit aren't strange
EPT
