Confusion over the WCS region selection/locking policy system continues nearly a week after the official announcement of the tournament. At the time of the WCS announcement, the policy appeared to be that players selecting Korea as their region in season 1 would be allowed to change their region before the start of Season 2. However, several players and team affiliates soon began to state they had been told they could not change regions at all, or that they had trouble getting any clear information.
In Blizzard Community Manager Cloaken's Reddit Q&A,the only public statement regarding the matter, appeared to clear things up for for good.
We too agree that Korean players currently playing in GSL were put in a difficult situation regarding making a year-long commitment to a WCS league as GSL started right on the heels of our announcement. With this being the case, we will be making a one-time exception at the end of Season 1 to allow players to make a change in their regional commitments for the rest of 2013. If a player currently playing in GSL would like to make a change at that time then they will be able to do so. We will have more information on exactly how this process will work well in advance of the conclusion of Season 1.
However, information suggesting that the Q&A is incorrect is emerging. Following SK_MC's elimination from Code S, Gamespot journalist Slasher and Evil Geniuses' HuK had the following exchange on twitter.
@Slasher: Woke up just missing DRG eliminating MC from #WCS KR. Huge win for DRG. MC to USA/EU soon enough? @LorangerChris: He cant swap now, its to late @Slasher: I thought as clarified in the AMA, you are allowed one exception @LorangerChris i was told i cant play code a, and code s players in korea cant change even if they wanted to
Furthermore, a different account from other sources state that the a season 2 region change has been offered to KR region players on the condition that they make the decision immediately, and not at the end of season 1 as previously reported.
Originally, it appeared that the policy was that players choosing the Korean region in Season 1 (the current season lasting until June) would be allowed a one-time-only opportunity to change their region at the end of the season. This was told to Korean teams in materials sent out before the April 3rd WCS announcement, and was said by GSL director Mr. Chae during the first broadcast of WCS Korea GSL. However, multiple pro-gamers and esports related persons made statements suggesting that this was straight out incorrect, or that there was difficulty finding any clear information.
Acer's Scarlett made the following post in her fanclub.
On April 06 2013 06:56 Relentless` wrote: I know some of you guys were speculating / wondering what her direction might be with all the new WCS stuff as well as some of the foreign tournaments. I'm about to watch the new Khaldor interview, but you can read here and she addresses some of those questions down near the bottom of their GSTL match review:
P.S. Scarlett is a boss and I think i'll spend just a few more minutes relishing in the original AxiomAcer vs IM GSTl thread comments section where everything was initially "MVP ALLKILL INCOMING" and "SCARLETT WILL GET SMASHED". What up now blind ppl!
EDIT: Yep - check out that new awesome Khaldor interview too. They cover a good bit on it as well.
i talked in the IRC that since we were told today it was changed to not be able to switch region, i might end up not playing code a quals afterall
On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote: Just to go on record, a lot of us knew nothing about WCS until it was announced and for many teams there's still a lot of uncertainty.
It's been extremely hard to get any details about the structure, dates and regulations around WCS. The only ones that have been responsive to us are ESL (thanks) and even in that line of communication there's a lot of confusion.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
At first we were told that if you competed in code A qualifiers, you were instantly locked in for the year. Then came the exception that people in Korea would be allowed to switch after the first season. Then the EU side of things told us there was no such exception. Then we were told there was such an exception but it only applied to Koreans and not foreigners in Korea. Then we were told it applied to everyone in the first Korean season. Now we're not sure whether they're locked in or not...
...We have manager chats on skype and people are just scrambling to pick up scraps of new information
tl;dr: Many teams got no notice. It's been extremely hard to get the information we need. There's 0 clarity.
This whole thing is a goddamn mess. I have contacts at Blizzard yet I'm still not 100% sure about how this thing is working. The information we got came through Gamespot and appears to be incomplete. Pretty much all Korean players were confused as hell about it and most were under the impression that competing in WCS KR would ban you from playing MLG and IEM events (some even thought ALL foreign events).
The reality of the situation now seems to be, if you're in Code S right now you have an inherent advantage going into Season 1 of WCS KR and due to forced equivalency in WCS which now says "hey, GSL is now the same as WCS NA and EU", a lot of Korean players are very upset. They're saying "what's the point in trying to work hard to get into GSL now? WCS NA and EU have the same prizemoney and are much easier, plus we get to go to foreign events." Not only that but if WCS is held at IEM and MLG events in parallel with the main tournament (which we don't know yet), then competing in WCS NA or EU gives you double the chance of attending a foreign tournament, which is very desirable to Korean players since they like to travel to different countries and those tournaments are easier and shorter yet reward you more often than not with more prizemoney.
It's becoming abundantly clear that the difference between the way WCS KR and WCS NA/EU are operated is actually a problem for Korean players. It's meaning less events for them in terms of GSL and OSL tournaments (though hopefully GOM and OGN will put on side events to make up for this) and also devaluing the GSL in the eyes of many Korean players. Can you blame em? Why play KR when you can play NA and slap some foreigners around for the same amount of money? WCS KR is going to be ridiculously hard, NA and EU? Less so. This would have been perhaps less of an issue if participation in WCS NA/EU required physical residency, then you get a few players like Polt and ForGG playing in their respective regions of residency, rather than a flood of Code Bs coming in and taking over the regions. Plus hey, you gotta pick, so if you pick and then don't actually get into WCS KR, you can't suddenly switch around and change your mind. Other way around applies to, wanna play in GSL? Then you have to pick WCS KR and you're locked in there outside of this one-time change they're gonna give you at the end of Season 1.
Add to that the rumors of a significant, lengthy offline portion of the event rather than just a short weekend tournament and the whole thing is just one big mess right now, not to mention they sprung it on people with very short notice.
On April 07 2013 07:17 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you don't join Europe or North America now it means you can't be Premier League in season two either. Because if you join next season you will have to start at the bottom which means a season of Challenger league before you can get to up and downs. This is pretty brutal for players who are already part of WCS KR by being in GSL. It also means the decision for all the others is really hard, because previously everyone thought you could at least play one season of WCS KR and make up your mind after.
This whole thing is so complicated, and not having all the information makes it incredibly hard. The search for information has kept us busy the past couple days. Small bits are trickling in depending on who you ask at which organization, but other information simply isn't going to come at all. I want to make the best decisions for my team together with my players, but right now it seems I may as well be playing roulette.
Whatever the case is, it's imperative that the situation be clarified so that players and teams can make important decisions. Unfortunately, with the Code A qualifiers beginning tomorrow morning in Korea, it may already be too late.
New system with comes a lot of shoving to make it fit in everyone's schedule (MLG, EU and Korean tournament organizers + teams participating in foreign leagues [EGTL, WW, etc.) as well as players traveling (America, Korea, EU).
This is pretty much expected that a lot lose out to lay way for the new road of consistent scheduling and timeline.
It's sad to see and read this, but it was expected as well.
Blizzard will make an exception to allow all GSL Season 1 players to make a one-time switch if they want to after Season 1 in Korea.
Whatever misunderstanding or misinformation was done here - if Blizzard announces something the way they did with this, then it holds true.
European teams with players currently residing in Korea should be aware that EU WCS and NA WCS will be starting in only a couple of weeks though. Their players would have to play with bad ping from Korea if they decide to stay there and wish to qualify for WCS EU or NA.
On April 07 2013 02:24 Torte de Lini wrote: New system with comes a lot of shoving to make it fit in everyone's schedule (MLG, EU and Korean tournament organizers + teams participating in foreign leagues [EGTL, WW, etc.) as well as players traveling (America, Korea, EU).
This is pretty much expected that a lot lose out to lay way for the new road of consistent scheduling and timeline.
It's sad to see and read this, but it was expected as well.
While it is expected for people to, essentially, get screwed in a period of transition; the lack of cohesive organization and information is ridiculous. If there were so many things undecided about a tournament, which has already started, then why has it started so soon? We still know nothing about EU and NA, other than it's a GSL format with ESL and MLG running it, and the korean scene obviously has it's own problems.
This seems very rushed and half-hearted. We can only hope that information comes out sooner than later.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
Where are you, Blizzard, to make your system clear to everyone!?
Didn't they also want to do an AMA on reddit to answer all questions regarding WCS? Have not seen that yet. There are so many questions still, for instance, whether GSL and OSL are interconnected or not and what that special Ro32 Bo1 format exception for OSL really means.
I know you guys read TL, so let me tell you, I am disappointed, Blizzard! Get on it!
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
it's also largely unrelated to the OP? I don't know if either of you read it
I assume given the confusion and basically how terrible a decision it would be to have any other way, that this season of WCS in terms of GSL does not count towards the lock. All players will be able to choose after this season is over. Because this season was already in place before the big changes you just cannot do it any other way.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
You would only need to send him abroad for the playoffs, and I doubt those last very long. It's not ideal, but playing on the NA server from Korea and attending the WCS-NA is still an option.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
it's also largely unrelated to the OP? I don't know if either of you read it
Sorry for that.
I think my first posting in this thread was more on target though, right?
For Scarlett there might be a different case as there is probably a Code S (Premier Division) slot waiting in NA WCS while she has only a small chance of making Code A (Challenger Division) in Korea. From a financial standpoint, that's an easy call to make.
You would think the PLAYERS would be contacted FIRST about the new WCS before the public at large. It appears the koreans were in the know while some teams in the the west were left in the dark. How sad! T_T I hope that by season 2 all western teams will have a plan for each region going forward.
I was kinda confused why MC would consider switching when he already plays in GSL. If there is so much confusion among teams and pro-gamers how can Blizzard expect people to lock themselves down to a region for a considerable amount of time?
The reason for not releasing the full details on the first day of the reveal unfortunately seems to be that the rules are not set in stone yet, or at least that the rules have not been communicated effectively to participants. Who sets the rules? Where can I find clarification? Blizzard, you need to step up and be the authority that you're making yourself into. That includes transparency.
On April 07 2013 03:04 m0ck wrote: The reason for not releasing the full details on the first day of the reveal unfortunately seems to be that the rules are not set in stone yet, or at least that the rules have not been communicated effectively to participants. Who sets the rules? Where can I find clarification? Blizzard, you need to step up and be the authority that you're making yourself into. That includes transparency.
Too much too soon?
I think this post is very much spot on. Blizzard needs to step up and hash out their rules completely before forcing anyone to lock in without total clarity with respect to what kind of implications their actions will have for the rest of the year. At this point, with the hard deadline April 11th (that's when Code A qualifiers start, right?), Blizzard has to get the phones working the MLG, ESL etc. so they can figure out dates to get everything in order so everyone involved can make an informed decision. If they don't have everything ready by then, a one time switch after Season 1 would likely be the most fair solution.
On April 07 2013 03:04 m0ck wrote: The reason for not releasing the full details on the first day of the reveal unfortunately seems to be that the rules are not set in stone yet, or at least that the rules have not been communicated effectively to participants. Who sets the rules? Where can I find clarification? Blizzard, you need to step up and be the authority that you're making yourself into. That includes transparency.
Too much too soon?
I think this post is very much spot on. Blizzard needs to step up and hash out their rules completely before forcing anyone to lock in without total clarity with respect to what kind of implications their actions will have for the rest of the year. At this point, with the hard deadline April 11th (that's when Code A qualifiers start, right?), Blizzard has to get the phones working the MLG, ESL etc. so they can figure out dates to get everything in order so everyone involved can make an informed decision. If they don't have everything ready by then, a one time switch after Season 1 would likely be the most fair solution.
That is maybe Blizzard's way to prevent a massive korean immigration in WCS-NA/EU. I'm only half-joking :[
As long as enough people are outspoken in regards to Blizzard already having made it public that a one-time switch is to be allowed, I don't see how they can change their mind in any reasonable fashion. If they do screw these players over, we must make our displeasure known.
On April 07 2013 03:04 m0ck wrote: The reason for not releasing the full details on the first day of the reveal unfortunately seems to be that the rules are not set in stone yet, or at least that the rules have not been communicated effectively to participants. Who sets the rules? Where can I find clarification? Blizzard, you need to step up and be the authority that you're making yourself into. That includes transparency.
Too much too soon?
I think this post is very much spot on. Blizzard needs to step up and hash out their rules completely before forcing anyone to lock in without total clarity with respect to what kind of implications their actions will have for the rest of the year. At this point, with the hard deadline April 11th (that's when Code A qualifiers start, right?), Blizzard has to get the phones working the MLG, ESL etc. so they can figure out dates to get everything in order so everyone involved can make an informed decision. If they don't have everything ready by then, a one time switch after Season 1 would likely be the most fair solution.
That is maybe Blizzard's way to prevent a massive korean immigration in WCS-NA/EU. I'm only half-joking :[
Well, I think the region migration thing is a very serious question and somewhat applies to Waxangel's initial post: Koreans have to make the decision to play in Code A qualifiers just as foreigners do, except for the fact that they don't have to worry about moving out of Korea like Scarlett and SortOf. The Koreans can only benefit from playing in NA and EU via easier competition, lagless Korean ladder, and Korean team houses, but if they have to make the choice to not go for Code A to do it, I think it will likely deter some.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
You would only need to send him abroad for the playoffs, and I doubt those last very long. It's not ideal, but playing on the NA server from Korea and attending the WCS-NA is still an option.
Why do you assume that players are allowed to play from Korea in general? I am not saying I heard otherwise, but this is not a matter of fact. There are examples of other regulations like the EPS for instance (the German ESL League), where you can be of any citizenship (even play online from other regions occasionally) as long as your regular residence is in Germany.
I am not sure why Blizzard would let Koreans play qualifications from Korea if they are not willing to actually transfer to other regions. They could easily rule that out.
On April 07 2013 02:24 Torte de Lini wrote: New system with comes a lot of shoving to make it fit in everyone's schedule (MLG, EU and Korean tournament organizers + teams participating in foreign leagues [EGTL, WW, etc.) as well as players traveling (America, Korea, EU).
This is pretty much expected that a lot lose out to lay way for the new road of consistent scheduling and timeline.
It's sad to see and read this, but it was expected as well.
I can understand how the point and prize structures are still being defined while things are set in motion to fit in a schedule, but the region lock rules really shouldn't have to be that complex.
Just make a decision regarding exceptions and what-not, and announce it as soon as possible.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
You would only need to send him abroad for the playoffs, and I doubt those last very long. It's not ideal, but playing on the NA server from Korea and attending the WCS-NA is still an option.
Why do you assume that players are allowed to play from Korea in general? I am not saying I heard otherwise, but this is not a matter of fact. There are examples of other regulations like the EPS for instance (the German ESL League), where you can be of any citizenship (even play online from other regions occasionally) as long as your regular residence is in Germany.
I am not sure why Blizzard would let Koreans play qualifications from Korea if they are not willing to actually transfer to other regions. They could easily rule that out.
I was thinking about this last night and came up with the idea that you have to be in the region you want to play in. It makes sense for GSL because you have to be there anyway and disallows Koreans in Korea to play in NA and EU. It's not discriminatory in any way (although it has a clear purpose) and would solve the potential problem.
Im 90% sure the rule is something like: "If you participate in CodeA qualifiers - you wont be able to participate in WCS NA/EU Season 1, but can qualify for the next season".
This rule should actually be this way in general - locking for a year is kind of moronic. What if you have to move mid-year ( due to school, or various other reasons ), you just are screwed for 2 seasons - losing CodeA/CodeS placement and all your WCS points should be enough.
On April 07 2013 02:44 lord_nibbler wrote: Necessary growing pains IMHO.
Also, I do not 'fear a Code B migration' at all, because it does not make sense given the economic background of most Korean teams. A fact that is sadly overlooked by the majority of doomsayers here on TL. Why would Korean-only sponsors like KT, SK or Woongjin have any interests in sending players abroad? They do not sell their products there.
I can see MC and MMA transfer to Europe because that is where their sponsors are focused and maybe Red Bull might wish for Bomber and some other IM players to come to NA. But for most Korean players unaffiliated with foreign sponsorship playing outside of Korea is not an option financially.
This posting is right on the money. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much of an investment it is to send a player abroad.
You would only need to send him abroad for the playoffs, and I doubt those last very long. It's not ideal, but playing on the NA server from Korea and attending the WCS-NA is still an option.
Why do you assume that players are allowed to play from Korea in general? I am not saying I heard otherwise, but this is not a matter of fact. There are examples of other regulations like the EPS for instance (the German ESL League), where you can be of any citizenship (even play online from other regions occasionally) as long as your regular residence is in Germany.
I am not sure why Blizzard would let Koreans play qualifications from Korea if they are not willing to actually transfer to other regions. They could easily rule that out.
Yeah you're right, so far I'm just assuming because this WCS is a big mystery. All we know is that mike morhaime expects (does he really ?) some koreans to play in wcs-na or wcs-eu, and those two tournaments will have a strong online qualification processus at first. Of course the rule you mention could be applied and, in fact, make a lot of sense.
But if you have to leave korea and move to the US or Europe in order to compete, you would expect blizzard to warn teams and players weeks and months prior the wcs starts. I don't know if those were told, but players look kind of lost.
horrible system. we will never see foreigners in GSL ever again and european/ NA WCS will be joke tournaments without the big korean names. I can only hope that MLG and ESL will still have their regular tournaments alongside of WCS.
On April 07 2013 03:57 CupOfJoe wrote: Koreans will still go to MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on, they just won't get WCS points for korea otherwise everything will be the same as always.
I mean how is that even possible? If it was the case that you could play all the tourneys anyway, why not lock on NA and play the gsl nonetheless. I am pretty sure they can't just play MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on. That would not make sense.
On April 07 2013 03:57 CupOfJoe wrote: Koreans will still go to MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on, they just won't get WCS points for korea otherwise everything will be the same as always.
I mean how is that even possible? If it was the case that you could play all the tourneys anyway, why not lock on NA and play the gsl nonetheless. I am pretty sure they can't just play MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on. That would not make sense.
MLG and IEM events aren't WCS events, the WCS season is separate from the regular MLG/IEM seasons.
Here are questions I'd like to have answered yet regarding the WCS:
Does giving a qualifier a try lock you into that respective region already or will only a successful qualification for the challenger tier do that?
Why is the name "Code S" kept but not "Code A"? What about "Up and Downs"? What is the official terminology for all regions in the end?
Why does OSL get a format exception with the Ro32 Bo1 tournament added on?
Are GSL and OSL interconnected (i.e. top 8 + qualified from Code A and Up and Downs of a current GSL will be in the subsequent OSL and vice versa)? What about the seasons in other regions?
What is the ruling on the mentioned exception for players in the WCS Korea region to be able to choose a new region after the first season and how does that pertain to foreign players currently in South Korea?
Will the offline Ro16 playoffs for WCS Europe and WCS America be played on a single weekend or spread out over several days like in GSL Code S?
Where will the respective studios be in in the EU and NA regions for the offline events? Will it be New York and Cologne?
In what ways will WCS cooperate with DreamHack and NASL?
Will only the Code S tier award points toward WCS finals qualification?
What is the point reward structure in general, also in terms of non-WCS tournaments awarding points?
Which region will host which season finals? How is the order decided?
How is the sixteenth player of a host region for a season finals decided? Is it points as well?
What i have been confused about is the MLGs. Does this new system mean they will all be NA only or will there still be people from all over the world coming to play at an MLG?
On April 07 2013 04:20 BigNesticle wrote: What i have been confused about is the MLGs. Does this new system mean they will all be NA only or will there still be people from all over the world coming to play at an MLG?
On April 07 2013 03:57 CupOfJoe wrote: Koreans will still go to MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on, they just won't get WCS points for korea otherwise everything will be the same as always.
I mean how is that even possible? If it was the case that you could play all the tourneys anyway, why not lock on NA and play the gsl nonetheless. I am pretty sure they can't just play MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on. That would not make sense.
MLG and IEM events aren't WCS events, the WCS season is separate from the regular MLG/IEM seasons.
Another great question for EU and NA is why have these not already started?
If we are doing the same format all around, and GSL has already started with all players in each division, then how is NA/EU supposed to keep the same schedule when we don't even know who is in Challenger or Premier divisions yet???
I guess it is safe to assume that these tournaments (qualifiers into divisions) will be crammed into a very short period and likely not streamed or have much of any storyline until the very end....very disappointing if that is the case.
Why don't you just earn a certain amount of points within a given tournament, then pick a region you want to compete in. In fact, they should change the region names to something Starcrafty, and say "These are the leagues. Pick your tournaments that give WCS points and play in them."
The first season all tournaments earn the same amount of points, then start changing them between seasons to allow for people who invest more time and effort into a tourney due to the amount of skilled players. The first season will give us points to justify which tournaments give out which points based on where the champions of those tournaments are headed.
On April 07 2013 04:20 BigNesticle wrote: What i have been confused about is the MLGs. Does this new system mean they will all be NA only or will there still be people from all over the world coming to play at an MLG?
On April 07 2013 03:57 CupOfJoe wrote: Koreans will still go to MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on, they just won't get WCS points for korea otherwise everything will be the same as always.
I mean how is that even possible? If it was the case that you could play all the tourneys anyway, why not lock on NA and play the gsl nonetheless. I am pretty sure they can't just play MLG and IEM whenever GSL is not on. That would not make sense.
MLG and IEM events aren't WCS events, the WCS season is separate from the regular MLG/IEM seasons.
Kinda scary that the folks in charge of all this either haven't figured out all the details or are incapable of communicating them. Maybe a little bit of the effort put into getting so many VIP's to a fluffy announcement ceremony in Korea could have instead been used for thinking about everyone's situation and writing a document that addresses all of their concerns.
You know, if you are trying to organize the regions and various tournaments around a central theme (WCS), pretty much the first thing you need to do is hire a WCS director and a dedicated PR person (probably plus some additional support staff) to do nothing but sit around answering these kinds of questions from teams, players and fans.
It's unclear to me why there isn't such a person and if not, why not. Seems like a pretty poorly planned roll-out of this idea, sadly. Hopefully, Blizz (or whoever) will get their stuff together, put some people in charge of decision making and sort this out in a reasonable way.
This seems to be a recurring issue in esports -- a lot of careful thought goes into tournament, league, etc., design and way, way too little goes into actually keeping the players and fanbased informed. Esports is entertainment. Isn't it obvious that marketing needs to be a giant part of that if you really want to see growth?
On April 07 2013 02:34 Shawngood wrote: Blizzard will make an exception to allow all GSL Season 1 players to make a one-time switch if they want to after Season 1 in Korea.
Whatever misunderstanding or misinformation was done here - if Blizzard announces something the way they did with this, then it holds true.
European teams with players currently residing in Korea should be aware that EU WCS and NA WCS will be starting in only a couple of weeks though. Their players would have to play with bad ping from Korea if they decide to stay there and wish to qualify for WCS EU or NA.
This should help a lot of people, thanks a lot Shawn. I think this post should be added to the OP!
Reading the WW's guy message makes me really sad. This is so nasty, to have a bunch of arrangements and prepaid plans and have to throw them away and rearrange your team in like 10 days. That shit costs money.
Also, someone from WCS needs to come out and clarify the switch option asap. Even without confusion there's very little time to act, and now it's not even clear what's true.
Overall, I think such important announcements should not be made for "in 10 days" events. There should have been a 2-3 month buffer for everyone to relocate and prepare properly.
P.S. They should have also announced the points of all tournaments immediately, including such as Dreamhack and NASL. Because that's relevant to what region you'd prefer to be in and how much it costs to travel to those events from there.
On April 07 2013 04:32 NonY wrote: Kinda scary that the folks in charge of all this either haven't figured out all the details or are incapable of communicating them. Maybe a little bit of the effort put into getting so many VIP's to a fluffy announcement ceremony in Korea could have instead been used for thinking about everyone's situation and writing a document that addresses all of their concerns.
No man, it's Blizzard. Everything Blizzard does is the best decision! -cough-
This whole event has been rather stupid. While it's great that Blizzard is actually putting some amount of effort into tournaments, they are sort of failing to execute the thing. It's April, and there needs to be 9 tournaments (3 per region) before Blizzcon (WCS Grand Finals). For something as large as this is, everyone (especially players) should have been informed of EVERYTHING at least 2 months ago. As people have said, NA/EU have not even started and the GSL format isn't exactly quick. It seems like the head Blizz employees came up with this whole thing in less than a week.
Not exactly the best start for their "gigantic change in SC2 pro-scene", is it?
Quick! Everyone vote strongly disagree if you haven't yet on the poll on the front page. They can't even tell us the format so why should we agree with it?
On April 07 2013 04:32 NonY wrote: Kinda scary that the folks in charge of all this either haven't figured out all the details or are incapable of communicating them. Maybe a little bit of the effort put into getting so many VIP's to a fluffy announcement ceremony in Korea could have instead been used for thinking about everyone's situation and writing a document that addresses all of their concerns.
This is essentially my largest concern with WCS. The entire thing looks good but relies on this gigantic infrastructure that no one seems to know anything about yet except it's also starting in a few days? How does that happen?
By the way, lots of people comment that Koreans that stay in the KR WCS will be missed at MLGs, IEMs etc. Isn't it still possible for them to attend those foreign events, just for money, while not getting WCS points there and only at home?
On April 07 2013 06:43 figq wrote: By the way, lots of people comment that Koreans that stay in the KR WCS will be missed at MLGs, IEMs etc. Isn't it still possible for them to attend those foreign events, just for money, while not getting WCS points there and only at home?
mlg iem tours have nothing to do with wcs, they can attends mlg and iems
so is it confirmed that all the wcs regional events will have the same prizepool? i think artosis said that the gsl/osl will continue to pay out the 50k won or so for first place, i cant imagine mlg/iem to hand out the same prizepool but in a 3-4 day time frame.
It seems the money Blizzard provides will be split evenly among the regions, but GSL (and possibly the other partners) will add on top of that. So Korea will still have the largest prize pool.
On April 07 2013 02:24 Torte de Lini wrote: New system with comes a lot of shoving to make it fit in everyone's schedule (MLG, EU and Korean tournament organizers + teams participating in foreign leagues [EGTL, WW, etc.) as well as players traveling (America, Korea, EU).
This is pretty much expected that a lot lose out to lay way for the new road of consistent scheduling and timeline.
It's sad to see and read this, but it was expected as well.
actually nothing has even been defined. so for you to claim "consistent scheduling and timeline" in a vague way... pretty much says nothing.
does this mean WCS 2014 starts in April 2014? What is Code "S" is NA and how do u go through qualifiers ? etc etc
Furthermore, Morhaime et al have already said this thing can change from year to year with more regions etc etc. how is this "consistent timeline and scheduling".
TotalBiscuit and Martijn.. 2 guys .. "on the front lines" are left hung out to dry.. while you sit around saying.. "everything is as expected".
On April 07 2013 06:59 sashkata wrote: It seems the money Blizzard provides will be split evenly among the regions, but GSL (and possibly the other partners) will add on top of that. So Korea will still have the largest prize pool.
even the most basic facts are up for dispute.
Blizzard's announcement is a clear case of "Ready","Fire", "Aim".
I can only speak for EU: WCS EU should start very shortly (~2 weeks), qualification details, structure etc will be announced /very/ soon, as soon as it is ready to be - we want to get started as soon as everyone else - I expect MLG for WCS NA will be similar. The final details are still being decided and confirmed.
If you don't join Europe or North America now it means you can't be Premier League in season two either. Because if you join next season you will have to start at the bottom which means a season of Challenger league before you can get to up and downs. This is pretty brutal for players who are already part of WCS KR by being in GSL. It also means the decision for all the others is really hard, because previously everyone thought you could at least play one season of WCS KR and make up your mind after.
This whole thing is so complicated, and not having all the information makes it incredibly hard. The search for information has kept us busy the past couple days. Small bits are trickling in depending on who you ask at which organization, but other information simply isn't going to come at all. I want to make the best decisions for my team together with my players, but right now it seems I may as well be playing roulette.
Its for the greater good. We need to region lock a little bit just like every other sport. Its the best way to grow anything- people love cheering for hometown favorites for not other reason than the fact that they are from the same country. It doesnt make sense but thats how humans are. It sucks that there is confusion about the code A qualifers and stuff. Blizzard really should have told all the teams before hand. Most teams have things planned months in advance. Its hard to move players from country to country on a sudden notice.
On April 07 2013 07:17 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you don't join Europe or North America now it means you can't be Premier League in season two either. Because if you join next season you will have to start at the bottom which means a season of Challenger league before you can get to up and downs. This is pretty brutal for players who are already part of WCS KR by being in GSL. It also means the decision for all the others is really hard, because previously everyone thought you could at least play one season of WCS KR and make up your mind after.
This whole thing is so complicated, and not having all the information makes it incredibly hard. The search for information has kept us busy the past couple days. Small bits are trickling in depending on who you ask at which organization, but other information simply isn't going to come at all. I want to make the best decisions for my team together with my players, but right now it seems I may as well be playing roulette.
I think it's time for the red phone to call Blizzard HQ?
But seriously, there has got to be a way to talk to the big ol' company that devised this WCS. Maybe contacts of former employees such as Rob Simpson could help? They ought to know how to get to the right people on Blizzard's end?
My biggest hope is that koreans just can't come to EU or US and play for few days and win it but that they actually haft to stay minimun 8-10 weeks per season. It should be like the whole year but it's first year so don't think they can manage that so quickly.
Is there a single team owner/manager/staff member that has actually been emailed comprehensive information by Blizzard?
Because we haven't and you'd think that making sure that occurred would be Blizzards FIRST priority. How are we supposed to make informed decisions on short notice with incomplete information?
On April 07 2013 07:17 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you don't join Europe or North America now it means you can't be Premier League in season two either. Because if you join next season you will have to start at the bottom which means a season of Challenger league before you can get to up and downs. This is pretty brutal for players who are already part of WCS KR by being in GSL. It also means the decision for all the others is really hard, because previously everyone thought you could at least play one season of WCS KR and make up your mind after.
This whole thing is so complicated, and not having all the information makes it incredibly hard. The search for information has kept us busy the past couple days. Small bits are trickling in depending on who you ask at which organization, but other information simply isn't going to come at all. I want to make the best decisions for my team together with my players, but right now it seems I may as well be playing roulette.
I think it's time for the red phone to call Blizzard HQ?
But seriously, there has got to be a way to talk to the big ol' company that devised this WCS. Maybe contacts of former employees such as Rob Simpson could help? They ought to know how to get to the right people on Blizzard's end?
I don't think the issue here is that somehow Blizzard forgot to tell people about their plans. It is more that they aren't set in stone yet and they are still talking with ESL and MLG about it.
On April 07 2013 07:17 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you don't join Europe or North America now it means you can't be Premier League in season two either. Because if you join next season you will have to start at the bottom which means a season of Challenger league before you can get to up and downs. This is pretty brutal for players who are already part of WCS KR by being in GSL. It also means the decision for all the others is really hard, because previously everyone thought you could at least play one season of WCS KR and make up your mind after.
This whole thing is so complicated, and not having all the information makes it incredibly hard. The search for information has kept us busy the past couple days. Small bits are trickling in depending on who you ask at which organization, but other information simply isn't going to come at all. I want to make the best decisions for my team together with my players, but right now it seems I may as well be playing roulette.
I think it's time for the red phone to call Blizzard HQ?
But seriously, there has got to be a way to talk to the big ol' company that devised this WCS. Maybe contacts of former employees such as Rob Simpson could help? They ought to know how to get to the right people on Blizzard's end?
I don't think the issue here is that somehow Blizzard forgot to tell people about their plans. It is more that they aren't set in stone yet and they are still talking with ESL and MLG about it.
Then why announce it or implement it now? It's a total mess to leave teams scrambling with only a few short weeks to be able to set plans for the next months and years. It's almost scary to think some of these players and teams that devote their lives to the game are going to get completely fucked simply because they have zero chance to know what the Hell is going on. It's really sad and it worries me. Not for the scene necessarily, because I do think this has the potential to be great when it's all sorted out (potential, not certainty), but for individual players that in the next month might find out they made the COMPLETELY wrong decision.
The Code A qualifier for GSL is coming up in a couple of days and many Korean players are trying to figure out if they should sit this one out, because entering would mean they're locked to WCS Korea for the first season. Not knowing the WCS EU/NA schedule and if the offline portion would conflict with GSTL or Proleague is making it difficult for the players and their teams to decide what they want to do.
So... what you're telling me is that Blizzard is killing #esports?! Honestly, though, Riot has a similar system with the LCS NA/EU and KR, too? Has Riot faced similar challenges as this? I'm wondering if they've figured out a way to handle it that may be in some way applicable to our scene (although team vs individual players already makes it quite different).
On April 07 2013 07:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: Is there a single team owner/manager/staff member that has actually been emailed comprehensive information by Blizzard?
Because we haven't and you'd think that making sure that occurred would be Blizzards FIRST priority. How are we supposed to make informed decisions on short notice with incomplete information?
I say we spread our players evenly throughout all regions and just play the odds. If you'll let Arthur stay in your living room, I'll let Crank stay in mine.
The lack of information about WCS from Blizzard shows that they aren't ready for this. Shame, Blizzard used to be "it is done when it's done". Seems like LoL success with LCS and DoTA2 emerging has force them to quickly announce WCS without properly think it through.
On April 07 2013 02:24 Torte de Lini wrote: New system with comes a lot of shoving to make it fit in everyone's schedule (MLG, EU and Korean tournament organizers + teams participating in foreign leagues [EGTL, WW, etc.) as well as players traveling (America, Korea, EU).
This is pretty much expected that a lot lose out to lay way for the new road of consistent scheduling and timeline.
It's sad to see and read this, but it was expected as well.
actually nothing has even been defined. expected".
Looks like everything up to CodeS/CodeA will be on Tuesdays/Wednesdays/Thursdays - CodeS is on website, and partial CodeA schedule was shown during the first broadcast - so at least that much seems to be defined.
It's likely WCS NA/EU will start following the same route so it will be much easier to accommodate for weekend tourneys.
edit: reread Torte's post, got the point now, but i think if the Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday plan sticks then i really dont see anybody losing anything from this schedule-wise.
On April 07 2013 06:59 sashkata wrote: It seems the money Blizzard provides will be split evenly among the regions, but GSL (and possibly the other partners) will add on top of that. So Korea will still have the largest prize pool.
even the most basic facts are up for dispute.
The what blizzard has said here are the following: "1.6mil", "3 times more compared to last year" and "equal distribution between regions" ( last one is from an interview so might be misinterpretation) Rumours are very bottom-heavy distribution Fact is that 1.6mil is not enough to provide GSL-like prize pool to every region + 4 extra tourneys including blizzcon finals.
It's reasonable to assume they wont actually make GSL prize pool smaller, and since WCS prize pool last year was around 3x less than 3x so it should be rather ok to assume neither the "3x times more" and "1.6mil" quotes did not include whatever Blizzard has been secretly giving to GSL. So yeah, it seems quite likely that GomTV and OGN might make the prize-money worthy of the competition compared to other regions.
On April 07 2013 07:58 Jacmert wrote: So... what you're telling me is that Blizzard is killing #esports?! Honestly, though, Riot has a similar system with the LCS NA/EU and KR, too? Has Riot faced similar challenges as this? I'm wondering if they've figured out a way to handle it that may be in some way applicable to our scene (although team vs individual players already makes it quite different).
It was a lot easier for Riot since they only had to deal with 8 teams in NA/EU for the highest division (LCS). They also made the announcement much earlier (everyone knew LCS was happening last summer). Their biggest issue right now is dealing with the amateur teams. The teams in the LCS get salaried so it's easy for them to poach good players from challenger teams who are playing for a chance to get into the LCS. So even though Riot set up a system where LCS teams can get knocked down, it's very hard to do so with no roster security for the new teams.
Here are my assumptions, which I personally think would be the best idea, but impossible to know for sure until formal announcements.
I think is incorrect is the theory of all WCS Prize money being the same between regions. The amount Blizzard is giving as a prize pool for WCS is likely the same throughout, but then you have the GSL/OSL and they are already tournaments that give out large prize pools, therefore since they are just being turned into WCS Korea it would make the most sense that you add WCS (Blizzard prize money) on top of GSL and OSL prize money. Making WCS Korea still well worth it for your better players.
Also ESL is doing WCS EU not IEM, Intel Extreme Masters is probably going to be the same tournament and ESL will do the WCS EU as a side project therefore I'm sure anyone can still enter IEM tournaments. As for WCS NA I have no idea one would assume MLG would still want big name Koreans coming to their events therefore making WCS NA completely separate from its normal stops but would need to hear from Sundance or Bliz for any real idea on that.
Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
yeah, there are a crap load of us that would love to practice like koreans and get sick good, but it's super hard when..
1. all of your practice partners are in school/work full time because unless you're on EG good luck being able to play full time in NA
2. even if you ARE good, GL getting noticed when the few online tournaments that are left are swarmed with code S level koreans (No, seriously.. zotac NA finals were polt vs jjakji ffs.)
3. lol everyone in NA hates each other so what the fuck who cares
Having a legit way for NA players to compete against each other and maybe cultivate a true north american scene would be awesome. Being able to watch all the people from your region compete must be a sick feeling, too bad it's impossible for NA players.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
On April 07 2013 07:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: How are we supposed to make informed decisions on short notice with incomplete information?
Blizzard heard about "alternate reality games" and decided to make one to announce their new league. It's an RTS! Unfortunately, no one managed to scout Blizzard's build order in time to counter it.
My perception about this whole WCS is that it's rushed more than what was needed. If the teams didn't even get a notice nor that the points for the non WCS tournaments are set...
Also announcing such a big change right before a new season of GSL instead of saying next season we will do this and that here are the points; this info for managers and teams and feel free to contact this person for questions.
Everything should have been up on the table and not managers and teams rushing, scavenging for information without real answers.
Hopefully first thing on Monday we will see some more info from Blizzard everyone can settle down.
Edit: Going into the Korean vs foreigner scene is out own fault, can't blame it on others. If teams, sponsors and leagues actually did what their counterparts have done you wouldn't have to QQ about it.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
1. all of your practice partners are in school/work full time because unless you're on EG good luck being able to play full time in NA
Isnt this the biggest problem? The reason why it cannot be all offline? That half of our players are not actually full-time? If it would be offline, and for example Suppy qualified, he would probably have to quit school. Same goes for Nerchio in EU and a lot of others. And thats just the biggest problem - if it was completely offline, somebody would have to arrange an accommodation for all the players near the venue. For LCS Riot is paying that. Is Blizzard willing to pay for it also? And of course, teams would have to pay much more money for full out progamers, then for guys who play in their spare time.
I hoped, that the 'Ro16 onwards is gonna be offline' would mean, that at least 2 weeks of offline play is gonna be done. But the more I think about it, the more problems come out and I am starting to lose hope. If it will be 'play online and then 1 weekend-long tournament for Ro16+' it is indeed gonna suck and turn into another NASL full of Korean B-teamers.
Basically, the whole 'all the Koreans are gonna play in NA/EU WCS' theory stands and falls on one variable - the length of offline play. The longer the offline part, the less Koreans are gonna turn up. Unfortunately, it seems same goes also for Americans/Europeans.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
It's not completely risk free... there might very little time between your ro32 win and your ro16 lan match. If you were not already prepared to go to US ( visa, travel etc ) it might be too late to start preparing. if you prepare "just in case" you might lose money you spent preparing. If you forfeit - you will lose your earnings.
It might be very likely that you will actually have to move to US to play in WCS NA.
Probably already stated, but the one time exception for KR players doesn't help them. Season 2 of WCS will already have a Premier league set in NA and EU. Any Korean that switches via an exception will have to go through prelims to try to get into Challenger league. Most probably will make it through, but it means they would not be able to get into Premier league until Season 3 at the earliest. They simply won't have enough points by the end of the year to do much of anything in this years overall WCS.
Maybe it's just me but this sure feels like Blizzard felt pressured by how well the LCS is going for Riot and decided they needed to do something. So they reached out to MLG. GSL. and ESL and said "This is what we want, here is how much we are willing to give.. we'll be in Korea at the begining of April to make an announcement, figure the rest out for yourselves"
Everyone on twitter talking about prize pools being the same at 100k, isn't that quite a bit less than what the current code S is.
Seem's very hard on the Koreans with less tournaments and less money especially when they can go to NA/EU (but probably won't with so little time to decide)
On April 07 2013 10:20 Laryleprakon wrote: Everyone on twitter talking about prize pools being the same at 100k, isn't that quite a bit less than what the current code S is.
Seem's very hard on the Koreans with less tournaments and less money especially when they can go to NA/EU (but probably won't with so little time to decide)
Hopefully more information is released ASAP
I assume those 100k are what Blizzard is paying. Since GSL has now basically merged with WCS, I think GOM will add some prize money on top of that, don't think they'll just run on Blizzard prize pools from now on and save their own money. I mean, Mangosix is sponsoring this GSL season for a reason, right?
This whole system with "you can choose any region you want" didn't make any sense from the start. I'd be more surprised if there was no confusion among the players/teams, since obviously blizz is also confused.
On April 07 2013 10:20 Laryleprakon wrote: Everyone on twitter talking about prize pools being the same at 100k, isn't that quite a bit less than what the current code S is.
Seem's very hard on the Koreans with less tournaments and less money especially when they can go to NA/EU (but probably won't with so little time to decide)
Hopefully more information is released ASAP
I assume those 100k are what Blizzard is paying. Since GSL has now basically merged with WCS, I think GOM will add some prize money on top of that, don't think they'll just run on Blizzard prize pools from now on and save their own money. I mean, Mangosix is sponsoring this GSL season for a reason, right?
I hope so!
It really just seemed super rushed in there announcement, I guess they wanted to make it before GSL started but still not the best publicity for it when no one really can explain it all easily.
They created a regional system that's PERFECT for locking to occur, with separate tournaments for NA and EU for WCS so that Koreans can still go to foreign non-WCS tournaments but NA players can shine in their qualifier tournaments. Then, for some unknown reason, they didn't lock the regions. Completely counter intuitive.
Kind of scary seeing how unprepared teams and players were for the WCS system despite being apparently informed of this weeks or months ago. It seems they haven't consulted professionals enough to get a good reading of the issues, and simply assumed everyone would comprehend and be fine with it.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
Problem is if it was only NA vs NA, I don't think it would raise the skill gap much at all and the skill cap will stagnate. Someone will only work as hard as to beat other NA players. If someone can only practice say 8 hours or less and still remain competitive and make decent money, then he really has no incentive to work harder. He'll find the perfect balance of saying I can party more, goof off, etc and how much he needs to practice to beat NA players. That person won't care if he can't beat koreans because he'll earn enough money beating NA players.
I think it's a fallacy to say a regional lock will raise the skill level of foreigners. I think they will work just hard enough to be good enough to beat other NA players and no harder. If they can earn enough while never needing to ever beat a single korean, then that will be good enough for them. I think you need to play better players to raise your skill level otherwise your skill level will just plateau to what is good enough to beat current competition.
A lot will come down to the prize pool breakdown. If a person doesn't even need to win wcs or even be top 10, then that will lead to even more complacency if they can earn good money just by being top 32, etc. Of course this will lead to a more healthy foreign scene with more pros able to sustain themselves full time. I just don't believe it will lead to any skill increase or increased motivation to be the best. The motivation will be to be just good enough to earn enough money to keep being a pro gamer.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
Problem is if it was only NA vs NA, I don't think it would raise the skill gap much at all and the skill cap will stagnate. Someone will only work as hard as to beat other NA players. If someone can only practice say 8 hours or less and still remain competitive and make decent money, then he really has no incentive to work harder. He'll find the perfect balance of saying I can party more, goof off, etc and how much he needs to practice to beat NA players. That person won't care if he can't beat koreans because he'll earn enough money beating NA players.
I think it's a fallacy to say a regional lock will raise the skill level of foreigners. I think they will work just hard enough to be good enough to beat other NA players and no harder. If they can earn enough while never needing to ever beat a single korean, then that will be good enough for them. I think you need to play better players to raise your skill level otherwise your skill level will just plateau to what is good enough to beat current competition.
A lot will come down to the prize pool breakdown. If a person doesn't even need to win wcs or even be top 10, then that will lead to even more complacency if they can earn good money just by being top 32, etc. Of course this will lead to a more healthy foreign scene with more pros able to sustain themselves full time. I just don't believe it will lead to any skill increase or increased motivation to be the best. The motivation will be to be just good enough to earn enough money to keep being a pro gamer.
I have no idea how this works. But if it's possible, I couldn't imagine teams not having practice accounts on Korea. Unless no one is practicing against Koreans, you have no choice but to practice there if you're serious about trying to be one of the best in your region (citizenship). Even if no one is, it's too advantageous not to. So it all comes down to unless there is no way to practice against Koreans, they will. It would be like only playing on WGT in BW and never putting in games on Brian or any other Korean server. No one that serious would ever do that.
On April 07 2013 02:57 onedayclose wrote: You would think the PLAYERS would be contacted FIRST about the new WCS before the public at large. It appears the koreans were in the know while some teams in the the west were left in the dark. How sad! T_T I hope that by season 2 all western teams will have a plan for each region going forward.
telling every player might have also spoiled the announcement for everyone and they didn't want to risk that.
This really sucks for the players, I really hope that they are able to get enough information. Would hate it if any of them (especially the foreigners thinking about committing to Korea) make a decision they come to regret based off of in-complet or in-correct information.
While a lot of SEA players are already playing on NA and KR. I want to know what this region lock will mean for some of the up and coming SEA region players who may hit the international stage during HotS. There seems to have been little discussion by Blizzard, or any of the other parties concerned about the state of SEA and how players from this region will interact.
For many it seems that the NA region is their only choice, but given the expense to travel from the SEA region to North America, especially for MLG, will Blizzard or any other parties be helping these players out? Sure mOOnGLaDe and Sen will be able to get funding from their teams, but SEA is bigger then just those two players.
On April 07 2013 08:14 ATiBright wrote: Here are my assumptions, which I personally think would be the best idea, but impossible to know for sure until formal announcements.
I think is incorrect is the theory of all WCS Prize money being the same between regions. The amount Blizzard is giving as a prize pool for WCS is likely the same throughout, but then you have the GSL/OSL and they are already tournaments that give out large prize pools, therefore since they are just being turned into WCS Korea it would make the most sense that you add WCS (Blizzard prize money) on top of GSL and OSL prize money. Making WCS Korea still well worth it for your better players.
Also ESL is doing WCS EU not IEM, Intel Extreme Masters is probably going to be the same tournament and ESL will do the WCS EU as a side project therefore I'm sure anyone can still enter IEM tournaments. As for WCS NA I have no idea one would assume MLG would still want big name Koreans coming to their events therefore making WCS NA completely separate from its normal stops but would need to hear from Sundance or Bliz for any real idea on that.
I was really excited by Blizzard getting more involved in the E-sports aspect of the game, like Riot. Unfortunately, it looks an unholy mess where the intent was awesome, but the execution was terrible.
WCS Season 1: participating in Korea: locked to Korea only for the first season (this is the big exception Blizzard made because GSL was more or less ready to start) participating in Europe/America: locked to that region for the whole three seasons
WCS Season 2: participating in Korea/Europe/America: locked to that region for the remaining two seasons
So in case of Scarlett that means that if she tries to qualify for KR Challenger Division (Code A) this season and fails to do so she would not be able to play in the first American season. As she is most likely offered a slot in the American Premier Division (Code S) it would be in her best interest to not play the Korean qualifier next week.
On April 07 2013 17:23 Rainman5419 wrote: I was really excited by Blizzard getting more involved in the E-sports aspect of the game, like Riot. Unfortunately, it looks an unholy mess where the intent was awesome, but the execution was terrible.
This is a transition into a new system, that could not even start at the beginning of the year (because of the HotS launch). Ofcourse there will be things that don't work out that well. Also, just because the information is not out yet, does not mean the information does not exist. This might hurt people like TB who think of themselve to be the center of the industry, but the primary concern for starting such a league is with the organisators. I would imagine it took ages to come to an agreement with MLG,ESL,GSL,OGN and Kespa, not to mention the tournaments that would have maybe started during the week (not possible anymore if you want those players or WCS points). I don't know if Riot had to deal with this, they seem to have a much tighter grip on their esport aspect from the start, particulary because they pushed LoL in this direction with lots of money.
Once the american or european WCS starts we (and the managers / players) will have more information I guess, thats also the only important dates. It does not matter if some korean can not directly plan to live in america / europe because he wants to "farm some foreigners".
This might hurt people like TB who think of themselve to be the center of the industry, but the primary concern for starting such a league is with the organisators.
LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?
It has nothing to do with inflated ego (Although you seem to have one) and everything to do with "I am more or less the owner of this team and I cannot make the best decision for my players because I don't have sufficient information on this pressing matter". You can see Nazgul's post, which says pretty much the same thing.
You seem to be pretty mad about a side remark. If you don't like that I mentioned TB name, put some other team manager in there. Its not Blizzards responsibility to talk months (years?) in advance with every teammanager. They have to provide the rules to the organisators, then the team either chooses to play with them, or does not start in WCS. The european or american events are not even announced yet, there is no need to go all "omg they did not tell me yet, this is soooooo bad". Their first goal was to get this thing running, maybe give it more than a few days to sort out all edges. Its the biggest SC tournament so far afterall.
Ruuuuuush. Chief himself has to intervene and bother with PR.
Sounds like he doesn't even know himself. awesome!
The whole region choice thing is just stupid because they treat every region the same. If there were 9 places for SKorea, 4 for Europe and 2 for the US per season with an active region lock in place it would be just much more balanced in the main tournament. Koreans are just better. Of course these numbers could be changed if the other regions catch up in skill or maybe make it through the main tournament in big numbers (a system that would lead to good players from a region dragging more players from that redion to the next WCs etc.)
The current system will work but it's a mess for teams, players and of course Koreans in particular
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
Because the leagues exist to entertain viewers and not to provide welfare to "pro gamers"? Morhaime himself said that having Koreans involved increases the entertainment level.
Oh okay welfare...
Koreans playing for WCS NA will do nothing for the US scene in terms of skills growth. We have Polt right now and all he does is play on KR, it's gonna be even worse if they can play the season online.
If they can play online, each team should have a lot of B teammers(3-5 players per team) playing for WCS NA and it's gonna turn into another NASL.
Sure they're better but it's because we have no infrastructure or incentives to play full time so stop acting like an elitist douchebag.
Problem is if it was only NA vs NA, I don't think it would raise the skill gap much at all and the skill cap will stagnate. Someone will only work as hard as to beat other NA players. If someone can only practice say 8 hours or less and still remain competitive and make decent money, then he really has no incentive to work harder. He'll find the perfect balance of saying I can party more, goof off, etc and how much he needs to practice to beat NA players. That person won't care if he can't beat koreans because he'll earn enough money beating NA players.
I think it's a fallacy to say a regional lock will raise the skill level of foreigners. I think they will work just hard enough to be good enough to beat other NA players and no harder. If they can earn enough while never needing to ever beat a single korean, then that will be good enough for them. I think you need to play better players to raise your skill level otherwise your skill level will just plateau to what is good enough to beat current competition.
A lot will come down to the prize pool breakdown. If a person doesn't even need to win wcs or even be top 10, then that will lead to even more complacency if they can earn good money just by being top 32, etc. Of course this will lead to a more healthy foreign scene with more pros able to sustain themselves full time. I just don't believe it will lead to any skill increase or increased motivation to be the best. The motivation will be to be just good enough to earn enough money to keep being a pro gamer.
I so disagree with this. At the moment the main reason there is so little incentive for foreigners to treat the game as a full time job is because there is so little chance at it being sustainable. At the moment there really isn't much money going around, most of the prize money goes to the top players at big tournaments. If you aren't capable of beating the top Koreans the chances of making any sort of decent money is incredibly small. Being a full time pro right now as a foreigner is a pretty big risk that is unlikely to pay off.
I disagree with your assessment of how things will play out if there was a region lock. If the current top players in NA become complacent and didn't bother trying to get better others would step in. Right now a lot of players aren't willing to take that step because it is such a huge mountain to climb (you have to be able to come close to winning tournaments full of Koreans).
The other thing your ignoring is that the players in NA would still be playing against Koreans (for example they can still play ladder against Koreans). The end of year tournament which would have the real big prizes would be against Koreans so there is still incentive to beat them.
I think your argument that you have to play better players to get better is a logical fallacy. How did the Koreans reach this level in the first place?
On April 07 2013 20:09 Gr33d wrote: You seem to be pretty mad about a side remark. If you don't like that I mentioned TB name, put some other team manager in there. Its not Blizzards responsibility to talk months (years?) in advance with every teammanager. They have to provide the rules to the organisators, then the team either chooses to play with them, or does not start in WCS. The european or american events are not even announced yet, there is no need to go all "omg they did not tell me yet, this is soooooo bad". Their first goal was to get this thing running, maybe give it more than a few days to sort out all edges. Its the biggest SC tournament so far afterall.
It IS their responsibility, with WCS they effectively took the role of the scene regulator, for better and worse. It is not "months in advance", remember that Blizzard said that EU and NA events are scheduled to start in April and that nobody knows anything about them yet. It's just sloppy and I understand why people are complaining. They need to release some kind of rulebook and make it clear for everyone.
There are still 23 days left for those tournaments to start in april, but anyway: The first (formerly GSL) WCS korea started already. If you take a look at the timetable that was posted here, you will see that all three regional events run from april up to the final event in june. (GSL ends 1st of june iirc). They could even just make a two weekend event (one online, Ro16 offline) and be done with it. Sure, they will not do it this way, but without the need to play in a studio, a bit more than one month is plenty of time for ONLINE play. You can be sure that they will release some kind of rulebook (or MLG / ESL will distribute it), but why send out things for events that are not even announced (with date or time)?
My point is, that this announcement for such a big league is like 4 days old. Maybe give it a few days more time so that, for example, MLG can put up a news on their website like "WCS america will start X.X.2013, if you want to participate sumbit your application. Notice that when you decide to play here you will only be able to further earn WCS points in american events, if you not already have earned WCS points in another region before" or something. They probably had the choice to start it NOW or wait for another year. The price to leave some players / teammanagers in the dark for a few days is acceptable, its not like years of planning someones life are depending on this.
On April 07 2013 21:18 Gr33d wrote: There are still 23 days left for those tournaments to start in april, but anyway: The first (formerly GSL) WCS korea started already. If you take a look at the timetable that was posted here, you will see that all three regional events run from april up to the final event in june. (GSL ends 1st of june iirc). They could even just make a two weekend event (one online, Ro16 offline) and be done with it. Sure, they will not do it this way, but without the need to play in a studio, a bit more than one month is plenty of time for ONLINE play. You can be sure that they will release some kind of rulebook (or MLG / ESL will distribute it), but why send out things for events that are not even announced (with date or time)?
My point is, that this announcement for such a big league is like 4 days old. Maybe give it a few days more time so that, for example, MLG can put up a news on their website like "WCS america will start X.X.2013, if you want to participate sumbit your application. Notice that when you decide to play here you will only be able to further earn WCS points in american events, if you not already have earned WCS points in another region before" or something. They probably had the choice to start it NOW or wait for another year. The price to leave some players / teammanagers in the dark for a few days is acceptable, its not like years of planning someones life are depending on this.
23 days means plane tickets etc might start getting expensive... especially since no one is exactly sure what will be required to participate.
23 days may seem like a lot of time, unless you are a smaller team with fewer dedicated staff, or a team with a limited budget. The other issue is that as Huk's tweet pointed out, Code A starts a lot sooner than that...
You need people to announce dates and times so teams and players can get organised, it's common sense and common courtesy, but Blizzard don't seem to have actually planned all of this properly with the wider world. They had their idea and ran with it, forgetting that there's a lot more work to do, and it creates a lot of work for other people to do.
I told people from the start that Blizzard is by and large an incompetent company, and that they will screw this up. Blizzard is really, really lucky that they don't have competition, and that people still trust them because they were competent in the past. Their recent actions speak for themselves, from Diablo 3 release, to unit ideas like the Warhound and Replicant, to this. These actions have been half hearted and rushed, and enough thought wasn't put into them.
And here we are. The fact that they've made a total mess of WCS is not surprising. We have to demand better, the players deserve it, Starcraft deserves it, and we deserve it.
What is so unbelievable about the dilemma is that it was not hard to foresee how it would turn out if you announce something in such short notice. What did they expect really?
Why don't they just make it you can play where you live or where you have citizenship/were born.
They also should have a tournament eligible for any region that feeds into the season finals. Imagine if the top 4 from each wcs went to the finals and another 4 from a large offline/online tournament.
This large tournament could have people ranked 5-8 from WCS NA/EU, top 8 from a large Korean tournament which code a and b players were eligible for and the winners of a few other regional tournaments ie SEA, china. That way other regions have a chance to join and all the code b/a players (like mvp) still have a shot at joining the first hots season finals.
The big announcement in Korea was very anticlimactic as all information was leaked. The important details was however left out which was something that should have been included in the BIG announcement. So it's now somewhat ironic that they have announced a new announcement for the very important WCS details.
Im suspecting that this whole mess is caused because one or two of the organizers are unhappy about some terms which delays finalizing the details. Coming up with a format is not exactly a rocket science, but getting competing organizations to work together is actually brain surgery times rocket science.
My bet is on MLG being the problem. Tweets from MLGSundance seem to suggest that he is under the impression that every region will have same prize pool, period - i.e. blizzard gives every region like 100k and thats it - GSL cant add its own money on top of it. It's pretty obvious that this cant be the case - lowering prize pool of GSL just... it would be just really really bad PR. 10x worse than the mess this thread is about - so its suggested that GSL can add bit of his own money on top of blizzard bucks.
MLG also seems to be bit delusional about the quality of their product ( remember when they made the PPV arena thing cost as much as GSL ) and think WCS NA deserves to be equal in both points and prize pool - so they might try to convince blizzard to enforce a prize pool cap on GSL so they can go around saying "we are as good as GSL" .
On April 07 2013 23:34 rename wrote: Im suspecting that this whole mess is caused because one or two of the organizers are unhappy about some terms which delays finalizing the details. Coming up with a format is not exactly a rocket science, but getting competing organizations to work together is actually brain surgery times rocket science.
My bet is on MLG being the problem. Tweets from MLGSundance seem to suggest that he is under the impression that every region will have same prize pool, period - i.e. blizzard gives every region like 100k and thats it - GSL cant add its own money on top of it. It's pretty obvious that this cant be the case - lowering prize pool of GSL just... it would be just really really bad PR. 10x worse than the mess this thread is about - so its suggested that GSL can add bit of his own money on top of blizzard bucks.
MLG also seems to be bit delusional about the quality of their product ( remember when they made the PPV arena thing cost as much as GSL ) and think WCS NA deserves to be equal in both points and prize pool - so they might try to convince blizzard to enforce a prize pool cap on GSL so they can go around saying "we are as good as GSL" .
that's very speculative, but i kinda could see it happen. MLG have made a lot of terrible business decisions in the past, including the one you mentioned.
imo Blizzard should've included NASL and Dreamhack as well in the WCS thing. sure, it would've made it more difficult to coordinate everything, but it would be more fair and Korea also has both of its big organizations partaking together. plus they could've used NASL production for the online part of WCS NA and MLG production (perhaps with some NASL help - especially casters) for the offline part, and the same thing in EU with IEM taking care of the online part and Dreamhack doing the big LAN event.
ah well, i'm still positive that this is gonna turn out great, but the planning could've been a little bit better by Blizzard the announcement less rushed. they were like "sup guys we got a new tournament that's gonna run a year and be the most important thing on the scene. oh, by the way, it starts tomorrow. can't give you any details on how exactly it'll work yet though"
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
On April 07 2013 23:34 rename wrote: Im suspecting that this whole mess is caused because one or two of the organizers are unhappy about some terms which delays finalizing the details. Coming up with a format is not exactly a rocket science, but getting competing organizations to work together is actually brain surgery times rocket science.
My bet is on MLG being the problem. Tweets from MLGSundance seem to suggest that he is under the impression that every region will have same prize pool, period - i.e. blizzard gives every region like 100k and thats it - GSL cant add its own money on top of it. It's pretty obvious that this cant be the case - lowering prize pool of GSL just... it would be just really really bad PR. 10x worse than the mess this thread is about - so its suggested that GSL can add bit of his own money on top of blizzard bucks.
MLG also seems to be bit delusional about the quality of their product ( remember when they made the PPV arena thing cost as much as GSL ) and think WCS NA deserves to be equal in both points and prize pool - so they might try to convince blizzard to enforce a prize pool cap on GSL so they can go around saying "we are as good as GSL" .
Each region does have the same number of points and prize pool, it has nothing to do with MLG.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
And this is so ignorant it amazes me. Read some previous posts, there are plenty of good reasons.
On April 07 2013 23:34 rename wrote: Im suspecting that this whole mess is caused because one or two of the organizers are unhappy about some terms which delays finalizing the details. Coming up with a format is not exactly a rocket science, but getting competing organizations to work together is actually brain surgery times rocket science.
My bet is on MLG being the problem. Tweets from MLGSundance seem to suggest that he is under the impression that every region will have same prize pool, period - i.e. blizzard gives every region like 100k and thats it - GSL cant add its own money on top of it. It's pretty obvious that this cant be the case - lowering prize pool of GSL just... it would be just really really bad PR. 10x worse than the mess this thread is about - so its suggested that GSL can add bit of his own money on top of blizzard bucks.
MLG also seems to be bit delusional about the quality of their product ( remember when they made the PPV arena thing cost as much as GSL ) and think WCS NA deserves to be equal in both points and prize pool - so they might try to convince blizzard to enforce a prize pool cap on GSL so they can go around saying "we are as good as GSL" .
Each region does have the same number of points and prize pool, it has nothing to do with MLG.
I think they were drunk during that interview, due to the "StarCraft is bigger than the NHL" thing - so i think there is still hope that they wont do something as stupid as removing all codeA prizemoney, and lowering CodeS to 100k ( like the EU rumour states).
1. My fear of Devs getting into the business of running events will actually stifle growth.
2. Most dev companies do not have the right people working there to 'structure' large scale compeition models.
Had to be said. I have said this on Climbing The Ladder several times.. and when you look at the stagnet growth in competitiion in the League of Legends Community and you follow that up with the mess thats been created already with WCS.. I think the point has been validated.
Message to Dev Companies: Stop hiring people without proper 'sports' knowledge. Stop hiring only those that understand your specific game. Start hiring people that fully understand how different sports structures work, how each can build or stifle growth and finally.. have those individuals draw up the infographic that explains it all.
If anything Blizzard should had released the details along with support regarding this new system much earlier. This very thread proves how crucial it is to get out critical information right away or people will start making up their own stuff and actually believe in it, no matter how fucked up that made up information might be.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
If you want to watch koreans watch "WCS Korea", by splitting them up between all 3 regions you actually make GSL weaker because less people compete there. Explain to me why I should be watching people who neither live nor are American (mostly Koreans) in WCS America, the American league.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
If you want to watch koreans watch "WCS Korea", by splitting them up between all 3 regions you actually make GSL weaker because less people compete there. Explain to me why I should be watching people who neither live nor are American (mostly Koreans) in WCS America, the American league.
I completely agree. People should have to live in the region in order to participate in the league.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
If you want to watch koreans watch "WCS Korea", by splitting them up between all 3 regions you actually make GSL weaker because less people compete there. Explain to me why I should be watching people who neither live nor are American (mostly Koreans) in WCS America, the American league.
This is my biggest fear in all of this: that GSL gets weakened by losing up&coming players or old veterans who are in Code B right now to other regions, therebey damaging its reputation A drawn out offline event or the requirement of residency on the continent should alleviate this problem.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
sometimes SC community can be so toxic. Somehow LoL players manage to enjoy watching Voyboy despite him not being a korean. Somehow in BW, before all the "elephant" hipsters we managed to enjoy watching foreign events, and TSL even barred koreans from participating.
Does NA scene have players whose skill is way beyond that of the viewers and is worth of admiration? Yea. So why cant you enjoy it? Riot realized that making the events regional will allow the countries where esports in its infancy(or everywhere outside of korea/china/taiwan) to grow. It's good that Blizzard are finally realizing the obvious too.
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
sometimes SC community can be so toxic. Somehow LoL players manage to enjoy watching Voyboy despite him not being a korean. Somehow in BW, before all the "elephant" hipsters we managed to enjoy watching foreign events, and TSL even barred koreans from participating.
Does NA scene have players whose skill is way beyond that of the viewers and is worth of admiration? Yea. So why cant you enjoy it? Riot realized that making the events regional will allow the countries where esports in its infancy(or everywhere outside of korea/china/taiwan) to grow. It's good that Blizzard are finally realizing the obvious too.
have you seen LoL reddit lately? They have been waiting for OGN The Champions to start, because they couldn't stand to watch the passive and boring foreigner games in LCS. Sounds familiar? The HC community (most of the people on TL, on /r/starcraft are like that) they want to watch the best matches. I am not sure who WCS is aimed at, but LCS is aimed at causals who are satisfied watching Voyboy...
EDIT: Not saying watching Voyboy is bad, I was watching his stream just yesterday. Same for Grubby stream, SaSe, Naniwa... it's just, they don't tend to create games as good as koreans, that's all.
I would actually be OK with complete lock, I don't care too much, really - I will be watching SPL and GSL anyways..
My main concern still is why the hell did they choose ESL over Dreamhack ?? WCS EU final was awesome, while ESL production is bad (beside IEM Katowice, Poland is great). German crowd always look so sleepy and annoyed :-/
On April 07 2013 08:26 FXOdesRow wrote: Make players have to relocate and go live in NA/EU to compete and that solves the problem . Why should they have the opportunity to compete risk free ?
EDIT: Grammar wtf
LOL lets just say i'd rather watch to good koreans duke it out than you vs some random NA player so that you can feel good about yourself.
Koreans bring competition...if you don't think you will ever beat koreans stop trying to play SC2 competitively. Put in as many hours as they do, then maybe when you're at their level you can complain that koreans make this game terrible coming to NA.
I say bring all the koreans over to show the foreigners how to play and actually work hard to achieve a tourney win instead of working off high salary workout sessions.
So please stop complaining CatZ...i mean Desrow
sometimes SC community can be so toxic. Somehow LoL players manage to enjoy watching Voyboy despite him not being a korean. Somehow in BW, before all the "elephant" hipsters we managed to enjoy watching foreign events, and TSL even barred koreans from participating.
Does NA scene have players whose skill is way beyond that of the viewers and is worth of admiration? Yea. So why cant you enjoy it? Riot realized that making the events regional will allow the countries where esports in its infancy(or everywhere outside of korea/china/taiwan) to grow. It's good that Blizzard are finally realizing the obvious too.
have you seen LoL reddit lately? They have been waiting for OGN The Champions to start, because they couldn't stand to watch the passive and boring foreigner games in LCS. Sounds familiar? The HC community (most of the people on TL, on /r/starcraft are like that) they want to watch the best matches. I am not sure who WCS is aimed at, but LCS is aimed at causals who are satisfied watching Voyboy...
A few and far between of true hardcores(those who actually understand why the games are good and not just say so to be cool) can watch the korean leg. But those won't claim they want koreans outside of koreans, because that would just dilute the player pool and give us shit one sided games.
Now if you want to dispute fairness, that's a different discussion alltogether that has some merit. however i am willing to ignore taht aspect alltogether in favor of boosting esports growth outside of asia.
On April 08 2013 02:37 Gevna wrote: My main concern still is why the hell did they choose ESL over Dreamhack ?? WCS EU final was awesome, while ESL production is bad (beside IEM Katowice, Poland is great). German crowd always look so sleepy and annoyed :-/
What they should do is rank every tournament there is by region and give points to players that participate in whatever tournament there is. Imagine if a foreign plays code A, wins a few rounds even if he doesn't make it to code S, he gets X points, plus a few GSTL games etc. and rank him in the korean region. In this time he also went to a MLG and NASL and got some NA points and since he was european he alsowent to a ESL and DH. 3 months latter it's time for WCS finals and he is ranked in 3 regions but he can only participate in the one that is he ranked with more points, this system would rank every major tournament and would be valid for everyone including Koreans.
It would be almost like a Tennis system, it could be a good thing. Players could compete in every tournament he and his team chooses and have a shot at every WCS. It would be hard to earn a spot in every region finals. By ranking smaller tournaments you would benefit the local NA and EU players that compete more in those regions and that would make sure it wasn't just Koreans and we could get the Korean vs the World feeling.
Bleh I'm starting to think more and more not requiring residency makes this a total mess.
If they had just required you to be a resident of the area for the majority of the time while playing in the season this whole thing would have been much neater. I missed the argument before that koreans trying abroad greatly diminishes the allure of GSL/OSL in the first place which is kind of sad. I still guess most koreans will play in korea for sponsor / ping reasons but it would just be a bit sad to see the korean EG-TL players for example play in other leagues because it's such an easier qualification. Ironically the creation of this one super tournament may actually be a bit unfair and greatly diminish the value of the true champion that was GSL before.
On April 08 2013 02:37 Gevna wrote: My main concern still is why the hell did they choose ESL over Dreamhack ?? WCS EU final was awesome, while ESL production is bad (beside IEM Katowice, Poland is great). German crowd always look so sleepy and annoyed :-/
ESL have better connections.
Or maybe they are better at handling online tournaments. WCS won't be all about the LANs.
On April 08 2013 02:37 Gevna wrote: My main concern still is why the hell did they choose ESL over Dreamhack ?? WCS EU final was awesome, while ESL production is bad (beside IEM Katowice, Poland is great). German crowd always look so sleepy and annoyed :-/
ESL have better connections.
ESL might also have been more open to it, due to the fact they run a league type format anyway, whereas DH is based on events now and then.
Just because A might be better than B doesn't mean A will necessarily want to do it. DH is a "computer festival" first, tournament/competition second. ESL is an e-sports league first.
On April 08 2013 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mike Morhaime tweeted to Huk and Idra that he will get them answers regarding this issue "ASAP". Code "A" starts in less than 5 days.
This kind of issue should not be handled by the Blizzard CEO. He needs an eSports manager guy to handle this for him.
The fact that Morhaime has settle this so close to the start of Code "A" is a failure on the part of Blizzard employees.
It'll be interesting to see how they alter their "esports division" management structure after this debacle is resolved.
If there are going to be 3 WCS NA events does this mean we'll have 3 MLGs before the 2013 BlizzCon?
Of course this isn't "handled" by Morhaime, HuK tweeted him and he's doing damage control via twitter, he's not literally messaging people and compiling info...
This is so half-hearted and amateurishly done it hurts my brain. Not only having current code S (from WoL) gain an advantage out of the blue, but the lack of information surrounding everything. When you suddenly change the format of some of the biggest tournaments in SC2 I don't understand how there isn't a PDF file or something containing all dates, rules etc released simultaneously. Not to mention it should be done further in advance than 10 days or whatever, when they are fully aware that teams and players operate on more than one continent. It is down right unprofessional and not fair to the players and the teams that basically make SC2 eSports what it is.
jesus.. i keep talking about releasing my GPS ranking system to the public.. if i was not so busy with other eSports stuff.. I would have time for it.. hmm.. may just have to pay someone to put together a nice info graphic with full details.
the GPS ranking system uses a relative points system based on your finish at an event. Points should always be awarded for players no matter their finish at an event and a raw total of points should never determine the 'best' players. Points should be based on how many events you attend and your finish at each. Years ago I created this ranking system to address the issues of rewarding points that were really based on how many events you could attend.. not how well you did at each of the events you attended.
On April 08 2013 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Mike Morhaime tweeted to Huk and Idra that he will get them answers regarding this issue "ASAP". Code "A" starts in less than 5 days.
This kind of issue should not be handled by the Blizzard CEO. He needs an eSports manager guy to handle this for him.
The fact that Morhaime has settle this so close to the start of Code "A" is a failure on the part of Blizzard employees.
It'll be interesting to see how they alter their "esports division" management structure after this debacle is resolved.
If there are going to be 3 WCS NA events does this mean we'll have 3 MLGs before the 2013 BlizzCon?
Of course this isn't "handled" by Morhaime, HuK tweeted him and he's doing damage control via twitter, he's not literally messaging people and compiling info...
just being interviewed by GameSpot and PCGamer and then flying korea and making ambiguous announcements. and then stating on twitter he is "working to get you more details"
there are plenty of "spokespersons" for every division of Blizzard constantly doing "damage control". where is the eSports guy? ya you're right , Mike has nothing to do with this.
On April 08 2013 02:37 Gevna wrote: My main concern still is why the hell did they choose ESL over Dreamhack ?? WCS EU final was awesome, while ESL production is bad (beside IEM Katowice, Poland is great). German crowd always look so sleepy and annoyed :-/
ESL have better connections.
ESL might also have been more open to it, due to the fact they run a league type format anyway, whereas DH is based on events now and then.
Just because A might be better than B doesn't mean A will necessarily want to do it. DH is a "computer festival" first, tournament/competition second. ESL is an e-sports league first.
I know close to nothing about LoL, but isn't the LCS handled by ESL ? If that's the case, it could be an opportunity for Blizzard to get their game more exposed to the huge LoL community.
It's not very hard to figure out why Blizzard chose ESL.
ESL has studios. ESL has a bigger staff. Dreamhack is organized by 9 people and some volunteers afaik. ESL is used to the bureaucratic work. ESL has a larger outreach and people all around Europe. ESL has a complete rulebook. ESL is used to getting shat on. ESL knows how to run online leagues. ESL has worked with Blizzard for years. ESL has specialized itself to run events on behalf of others. ESL has shown that it can deal with events of this magnitude with LCS.
Yeah, IEMs are a little bit stale compared to Dreamhacks but considering the facts above, I would've been surprised if Blizzard chose DH over ESL. ESL is basically the safe choice. Blizzard has enough to do with managing KR and NA. Best option might have been DH+ESL and MLG+NASL, but Blizzard should know best what they are doing from an operational standpoint. Dreamhack will be fine, they might even benefit from it. Can't say that about NASL... until more is revealed.
On April 08 2013 07:54 SinCitta wrote: It's not very hard to figure out why Blizzard chose ESL.
ESL has studios. ESL has a bigger staff. Dreamhack is organized by 9 people and some volunteers afaik. ESL is used to the bureaucratic work. ESL has a larger outreach and people all around Europe. ESL has a complete rulebook. ESL is used to getting shat on. ESL knows how to run online leagues. ESL has worked with Blizzard for years. ESL has specialized itself to run events on behalf of others. ESL has shown that it can deal with events of this magnitude with LCS.
Yeah, IEMs are a little bit stale compared to Dreamhacks but considering the facts above, I would've been surprised if Blizzard chose DH over ESL. ESL is basically the safe choice. Blizzard has enough to do with managing KR and NA. Best option might have been DH+ESL and MLG+NASL, but Blizzard should know best what they are doing from an operational standpoint. Dreamhack will be fine, they might even benefit from it. Can't say that about NASL... until more is revealed.
The ESL vs. DH is mostly about emotional attachment, as I see it. ESL has steadily improved throughout the last year, they'll make good stuff happen.
The issue with NASL is much larger. If Blizzard institutes a ban on competing SC2 content in the timeframe of WCS (which is, it would seem, pretty much around the clock (Korea->Europe->America->Korea)), there will be no room for NASL in it's current form.
Well, it is to me obvious why a player can't participate in both Korean WCS season 1 and in season 1 of another region. That they get an one time deal to repick region must be for season 2 otherwise it would be really weird IMO.
@Slasher: Woke up just missing DRG eliminating MC from #WCS KR. Huge win for DRG. MC to USA/EU soon enough? @LorangerChris: He cant swap now, its to late @Slasher: I thought as clarified in the AMA, you are allowed one exception @LorangerChris i was told i cant play code a, and code s players in korea cant change even if they wanted to
That actually makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Huk cannot play Code A if he wants to play WCS S1 NA. Code S players cannot change the location for S1, but they will be able for S2.
I think the only reason there is so much confusion, is because the GSL/OSL = WCS Korea. If they just had created a whole new tournament instead of replacing a current one, none of this would've happened
On April 10 2013 00:30 Negius wrote: I think the only reason there is so much confusion, is because the GSL/OSL = WCS Korea. If they just had created a whole new tournament instead of replacing a current one, none of this would've happened
I am sure the GSL and OSL would have gone for that(this is my sarcastic face). Having their tournaments eliminated or unable to air during WSC hours, which is during week when they show their matches. This was the only way it was going to get down and stop both sides from fighting.
On April 10 2013 00:30 Negius wrote: I think the only reason there is so much confusion, is because the GSL/OSL = WCS Korea. If they just had created a whole new tournament instead of replacing a current one, none of this would've happened
I am sure the GSL and OSL would have gone for that(this is my sarcastic face). Having their tournaments eliminated or unable to air during WSC hours, which is during week when they show their matches. This was the only way it was going to get down and stop both sides from fighting.
Also to add to that I think it was the only way to make OGN broadcast more Starcraft other than pro league. OSL was pretty much in limbo.
On April 10 2013 00:30 Negius wrote: I think the only reason there is so much confusion, is because the GSL/OSL = WCS Korea. If they just had created a whole new tournament instead of replacing a current one, none of this would've happened
I am sure the GSL and OSL would have gone for that(this is my sarcastic face). Having their tournaments eliminated or unable to air during WSC hours, which is during week when they show their matches. This was the only way it was going to get down and stop both sides from fighting.
Also to add to that I think it was the only way to make OGN broadcast more Starcraft other than pro league. OSL was pretty much in limbo.
I mean, just think about that. Blizzard has to get the GSL, and one of the larger networks in Korea, OGN, to play together. They also have to keep Kespa and ESF happy. They also need to keep MLG, IEM and DH in the loop and try to keep them viable at well.
Personally, I am in awe that this is working as well as it has been. There is some confusion, but nothing that is crazy or bad. Mostly players finding out that they can't switch regions if they attempt to qualify for GSL and fail. Which is pretty minor in my book, since NA/EU players can't shoot over to the other region if they don't qualify either.
EPT
and I think i'll spend just a few more minutes relishing in the original AxiomAcer vs IM GSTl thread comments section where everything was initially "MVP ALLKILL INCOMING" and "SCARLETT WILL GET SMASHED". What up now blind ppl! 
