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On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote:
Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG.
It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
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On April 05 2013 06:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:29 Cyrak wrote:On April 05 2013 05:44 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On April 05 2013 05:16 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:40 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL. amen. And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa. Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb  I'd actually be curious to see a poll of MLG ticket buyers that asked whether they would prefer all foreigners or having a Korean presence because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this. Ditto. I wouldn't watch a single game if it were full foreigner.
I'd watch some of it like I watched some WCS Europe but I wouldn't make sure I had the weekend off work and stay in all weekend to see it all, neither would I be disappointed if I was busy that weekend.
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On April 05 2013 08:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote:
Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG. It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
MLG gets much bigger viewers than Dreamhack does for Sc2 though. I don't think that's entirely due to Koreans but it's part of the reason.
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On April 05 2013 08:52 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 08:36 playa wrote:On April 05 2013 06:54 seoul_kiM wrote:On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote:
I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person. There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder. The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day. Yeah, because there's definitely enough money in the scene to make working 14 plus hours a day worth it, on the off chance you can place high enough to win money in a top heavy event. Yeah. I mean only ONE team can win the Superbowl, so why bother trying right? May as well just go ahead and stop training and playing NFL games on the OFF chance you make it there. Ridiculous. This is their life, and its something they chose to pursue. No one forced anyone to be a pro gamer, and no one said it was going to be a charity all the way, much like it was at the beginning of WoL. Show nested quote +The guy doesn't believe a word he says. He just had to do it to appease all of the tournament organizers, that's it. If you're expecting foreigners to put in BW Korean hours, say goodbye to foreigner gaming for good. I'd rather be "lazy" than forced to play a minimum of 14 hours a day. It's a game. It's not life. All of your waking hours spent working is stupid. There should be laws against that if there's not, already. You'd rather be lazy that put in Korean hours. Thats probably why you're not a pro gamer. If you want to be the best in ANY field, you have to put a shitload of time into it. I mean you might want to consider that besides winning all that money, the game might be an end unto itself, and they might actually enjoy playing starcraft that much. As in, their leisure time is filled with starcraft anyways, because they're passionate about it. But sure, lets take your advice and limit Starcraft practice across the globe to 3 hours a day, just so you feel better about human rights. Ridiculous. Show nested quote +
All Blizzard is doing is promoting "entertainers," a euphemism for people that talk a lot. The only pro gamers should be personalities in such a format, because what difference does it make whether a "good" foreigner finishes after all the Koreans or a personality does? Losing is losing.
Yeah this paragraph makes no sense, skipped it. Show nested quote +I'm sure Mike Morhaime makes a lot of f'ing money, but if he started working 14 hours a day every day, even he would probably say f it. SC 2 isn't that great and the money isn't there. I'd just like to see him give it a go. See how great his wisdom is. Mike Morhaime has nothing to do with it. Stop using him as a scapegoat to protect foreigners who can't/won't play at the level of Koreans.
You sound like Mike Morhaime. That has got to be the worst f'ing analogy ever. Another Blizzard employee that has no idea about sports but wants to make this game an e-sport. The minimum for a NFL player is 400k. A freaking rookie punter is going to be making 400k. Even if he wins the super bowl, he gets like 78k extra. For anyone making a comparatively decent salary in the NFL, it makes no difference to them financially whether they win or not.
Super bowls and etc. This is added stuff to give the illusion of meaning to things. But financially, the only people benefiting are the owners. So, if I lost the super bowl, if I cared, it would most certainly not be because of money.
Until a lot of teams are paying good salaries, obviously you have to be one of the best. If you're putting in 14 plus hours just for a chance to compete with the most talented people, you're taking stupid odds.
The paragraph you skipped isn't because it doesn't make sense. If I attempted to read French, I could say, hey that doesn't make sense. But guess what, that's not the problem.
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Its sad to see how some of these arguments go. Its like some people really think foreigners are physically incapable of competing with Koreans 
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This is ridiculous. I can understand the argument for protecting foreigners and giving them opportunities to win their own tournaments because they don't have the same environment, culture, and opportunities as Koreans. I get that.
But why in the blazes are we worried that the Code B, low-level Koreans aren't going to be protected by the WCS system??? Is there a reason I read some comments that the guy with the SAME training environment as the Code S guys should have a chance without having to move to NA. I'm looking at you Thrill. That makes ZERO sense. The guys in Korea, with the best training environment should not get our pity because they have the opportunity, and still can't compete with their countrymates. They don't need help. They couldn't compete in the past, at least now they can go to NA and beat up on American players.
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On April 05 2013 08:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote:
Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG. It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
You targeted Koreans with your wording and it came off bad when MLG was helping accommodate all teams.
With regards to the viewership for majors. It's been pretty consistent and DH had coverage from more outlets including Swedish National television. They have pretty good coverage. I'm still waiting to see the results of certain trade-offs. For example, the MLG partnership with the WWE from last year.
On April 05 2013 09:07 Wingblade wrote:
This is ridiculous. I can understand the argument for protecting foreigners and giving them opportunities to win their own tournaments because they don't have the same environment, culture, and opportunities as Koreans. I get that.
But why in the blazes are we worried that the Code B, low-level Koreans aren't going to be protected by the WCS system??? Is there a reason I read some comments that the guy with the SAME training environment as the Code S guys should have a chance without having to move to NA. I'm looking at you Thrill. That makes ZERO sense. The guys in Korea, with the best training environment should not get our pity because they have the opportunity, and still can't compete with their countrymates. They don't need help. They couldn't compete in the past, at least now they can go to NA and beat up on American players.
You might want to read my filter in this thread. I mean I just answered that bloody question on the last page again. Getting tired of sounding like a broken record.
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Big talk from Nani as always 
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All non-kespa player running away from kespa players yarrrrr elephant!
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All the Kespa players will naturally stay in Korea for Proleague. But the Code A/Code B eSF players got fuuuuucked.
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Pro-gamers being emo.
@ST_Golden: Lot to think about...
How's that emo?
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This Code S converted to WCS idea sounds pretty bad.. we have this season running, the best case scenario for a player in code b is to get to code s for the next season, which happens after the OSL season about half a year from now. So after next weeks qualifiers, the next time someone can qualify for GSL will only get you serious points for next year. There will be a couple more slots in the OSL as well, I'm not familiar with how many players they keep from the last season. But this pretty much means that every korean player who did not qualify for these 2 events by summer will have nothing impactful to play and practice for in the rest of the year. This creates a HUGE downtime for everyone who don't have the support to go to international events. To me this system looks like it will restrict the rise of new talented players almost completely, 2 GSL qualifiers instead of the 5 they had in 2012 gives a much slimmer chance for that pretty large group of players who'd like to make it.
And we have this new game out now, the hots metagame is not really settled and who knows how will someone perform so many months later.
In my opinion it would have been a better option to just drop the current rankings, thank everyone for playing in the pervious seasons in the GSL and OSL and do 3 completely separate tournaments with qualifiers for each, at least those would have the best players of those 2-3 months playing, now basically people will be riding the success of their 3 months old form all the way to Blizzcon. This was OK when we had a new GSL season every other month, but now we'll only have two for the year. From a spectator point of view, it feels like Korean SC2 has been scaled back immensely.
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Has anything progressed? Are (korean) pro-gamers still/more upset now? Or have they gotten over it?
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i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear that allowing the players to migrate and compete in another region would destroy the korean sc2 scene. not so much the kespa side of things as they are self-sustaining, but the esf one. i think that there are a lot of details we don't know about yet though so i'll just wait for more information. one thing i'm sure won't happen is esf agreeing to screw their players, so i'll hold my judgement until more info is released.
as for the na and eu regions having their own equivalent of gsl/wcs qualifier type of event with their own allocated prize pools, i think it's a good thing for sc2 as a whole, even though i'm not really gonna watch those
oh and props to sase and naniwa for their bold decision. they are true warriors, just like the race they play. i wish them both the best in korea *thumbs up*
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To a degree, people are being upset over nothing. Ultimately, the WCS will bring more money and publicity to SC2 as a whole, and it simply makes sense to have a centralized tourney structure -- which is something that seemed impossible, with GSL and OSL competing with each other.
Could this have happened another way? The answer is, no, none of us have any reason to think this could have happened any other way. Have any of you negotiated with the all the various different pro-league ownerships? Do you not realize what a task it must have been to get them all to sign off on this? The fact that this is happening at all is an accomplishment in itself -- and the only way that GSL and all the other leagues would risk their entire existence on this is if there was good incentive ($$$). And the result, while complicated, is ultimately more money to the players, to the leagues, and a more comprehensive structure to the SC2 scene.
Face it, there isn't enough money generated by E-sports for it be spread around to everyone who feels they put in the work. Korea is unique in that it is able to support their wide player-base through team sponsors -- and the WCS doesn't change that. If we do want more money in E-sports, and more support for the players, then things like this need to happen. This is the kind of all-encompassing tournament that will bring in major advertisers. This is the kind of tourney that could find its way onto television. That's a great thing, that would never happen with the status-quo of the best players being fragmented between different leagues, OSL and GSL.
Yes, I do imagine that some Korean pro-gamers will have to debate whether to represent a different region, or risk not being able to participate in the WCS. And, as it is a more inclusive and competitive tourney -- the most competitive tourney yet -- some of the lower rung GSL players will simply not have a spot in the WCS. But it ultimately isn't going to impact them financially. They're still part of their team. They don't practice like they do because they want to be a Code A player, but because they want to eventually be Code S, where they really get paid. Code A has never been profitable simply for its winnings.
And no one should be coddled for their nationality -- because they're not Korean. Koreans have ten fingers just like the rest of us. Get results, get sponsors, or find a job. Practicing ten hours a day, or fourteen hours a day, it makes no difference if you don't win. You're either extraordinary, or you're not. A world tourney should make no exceptions.
It'd be great if foreigners could get the sponsor-support that Koreans do -- but how is that supposed to happen? Why would a company support a team of players just so they can partake in local tourneys with small viewerships? Companies want large viewership for their sponsor dollars. If a foreigner can actually make some results on the world stage, then maybe they could be a trend starter -- and this is an opportunity the WCS provides, quite wonderfully. What we see now is Koreans coming to MLG and stomping over everybody. I certainly wouldn't be the one to want to sponsor a foreign SC2 player. In this chicken-or-the-egg scenario, the results have to come first, not the sponsors.
If we have foreigners showing positive results in the WCS, that could really get people excited and pique a lot more interest in the SC2 scene as a whole.
The WCS is a great opportunity for SC2 to grow into something more. But it's up to the players, especially the foreigners, to make something of it.
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On April 05 2013 13:49 theMagus wrote:
i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear this would destroy the korean sc2 scene.
I disagree, I think people should only be able to play in countries where they reside. Otherwise you have people like Demuslim and Forgg who commit to SC2 in a different environment and get punished for it. Living in the actual region during the duration of WCS is a commitment that should be allowed.
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On April 05 2013 14:13 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 13:49 theMagus wrote:
i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear this would destroy the korean sc2 scene. I disagree, I think people should only be able to play in countries where they reside. Otherwise you have people like Demuslim and Forgg who commit to SC2 in a different environment and get punished for it. Living in the actual region during the duration of WCS is a commitment that should be allowed.
read my post again please, because i don't disagree with your first statement. (maybe i should edit it to be clearer) i do, however, disagree that players should be allowed to migrate and compete in a different region, solely because of what this can do to the korean sc2 scene. you can glean from the koreans' convo how this is impacting them already. no need to explain.
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On April 05 2013 08:11 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 07:57 Daogin wrote:
I don't really understand why people are being so judgemental about something that hasn't even gone on for more then a week, and is pretty much in a beta phase that is opted to change if needed. I guess you are another one of those people who didn't really read Wax's post. Anyway, I've already reiterated the main points several times like several others. The fact it's only the first week is irrelevant. Part of the uproar has to do with the fact the Koreans aren't playing on equal footing based on the format where you have to be in Code S. A lot of players aren't in Code S and this season (cannot even really call it the GSL anymore because the WCS pretty much replaced it with the same format) thus they aren't eligible if they're code A/B. Furthermore they would have to forfeit their positioning in the Code B/A to lock in a different region. Not only that, but code S is based on what they did in WoL.
So basically the only beef is that people in code S didnt lose their seeds?
On April 05 2013 08:11 StarStruck wrote:
Yes, it's only beta. Yes, we don't have all the information on qualifier points. What did we get from this? Free Twitch stream with OGN English casts (sorry to those subscribers who feel cheated). GSL/OSL got replaced with WCS. The money in Korea got worse because as it stands there are less opportunities there now with only 3 seasons. Blizzard gave EU and NA a stimulus package by putting more money in those scenes.
4 seasons/year. The total prize money distribution is not known yet. We dont know if there will be less prizemoney in korea yet. We dont know if there will be more non-WCS tourneys in korea.
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EPT
