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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote: Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote: Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:33 Wildmoon wrote: Blizzard still have many of people who worked on BW. People who worked on BW are mostly the core people of Blizzard Irvine actually such as Rob Pardo but the team can't remain the same. People moved in their positions. Oh and I think the mentality "trying to see what area SC2 lacks and focus on it" they have is better than "trying to look at BW and copy from it". I seriously wouldn't buy SC2 if it was released as BW in hd. The rest of the world would not have bought that either. If you told normal player"And you can select 12 units at a time, still" they would have thrown a fit. The more amazing part of SC2 was how little they changed from the basic gameplay, which blew everyone's mind when it was released. The fact that some of the units are kinda like BW units is not that shocking. | ||
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Shai
Canada806 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote: Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense. I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote: Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense. That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how. It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote: That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how. It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents. Haha, I agree. I wonder how many people share my sentiments and would've been utterly content with a graphical overhaul of Starcraft Brood War and all excess funds that were invested into balancing flowing into improved UI and BattleNet and longer campaigns. But as of now, I am content with HotS, let's see what the imminent future brings. | ||
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Mellon
Sweden917 Posts
Something similar should definately be added to sc2! They could even have their own pair of casters for say, a monthly online finals, which would accumulate alot of views im sure. If they had that technology in 2003, i kinda question why they haven't implemented it in sc2.. Hoping for it! | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:42 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started. I don't think BW was ignored at all in the design of SC2, but I think that SC2, being built on a modern 3D game engine, is so architecturally different that the really subtle, specific lessons (like details of how carrier micro worked affecting its usability at the pro level, or how newer, smarter unit pathing resulted directly in unit clumping and the tendency toward a "deathball") aren't necessarily fully obvious even to the developers until the game is put out there in the hands of the pros. Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote: That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result. | ||
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ShiroKaisen
United States1082 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:02 Lysenko wrote: I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result. So they could've opted for a straight damage reduction that would effectively mimic the overall effect of random miss chance. 30% damage reduction is roughly equal to 30% evasion statistically over time. Instead, they made a conscious design choice to eliminate high ground advantage. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:02 Lysenko wrote: I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result. Yeah, and they actually thought that SC2 high ground created more terrain-based play than in BW since you couldn't shoot up at all without vision. It just didn't really work out that way. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:00 Lysenko wrote: Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process. Thats not true actually, broodwar wasnt a true expansion because the units were already made before they released starcraft | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:00 Lysenko wrote: I don't think BW was ignored at all in the design of SC2, but I think that SC2, being built on a modern 3D game engine, is so architecturally different that the really subtle, specific lessons (like details of how carrier micro worked affecting its usability at the pro level, or how newer, smarter unit pathing resulted directly in unit clumping and the tendency toward a "deathball") aren't necessarily fully obvious even to the developers until the game is put out there in the hands of the pros. Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process. Also remember that a lot of the things that increased the skill required in BW were unintentional, not the result of great game design. Mutalisk stacking, for instance. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote: Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way. Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where. Sigaty personally worked on BW. | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
Rob Pardo was also part of the BW QA team, and he was one of the guys who helped developed the lurker. Guess what? The guy lives the idea of small maps alongside big maps - he's a fan of Steps of War. It's not a matter of just getting the people on BW to SC2, that cheapens how much the community did the develop the game. Also, consider that SC2 was already a 'risk' in the eyes of some game designers. They were essentially remaking a game very similar to a 10 year old game, with a lot of the same units and gameplay. I'm pretty sure some mainstream reviewers and critics of SC2 pointed out how the game 'failed to innovate' while a lot of other RTS games are trying new things. I'm not saying that SC2 should have gone in that direction, but I think if you consider what a modern game designer has to do in the current ecosystem, it gives a more broad perspective than just "why isn't SC2 the same as BW" | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:07 ShiroKaisen wrote: So they could've opted for a straight damage reduction that would effectively mimic the overall effect of random miss chance. 30% damage reduction is roughly equal to 30% evasion statistically over time. Instead, they made a conscious design choice to eliminate high ground advantage. The main reason is to make the game play the way it looks. You can't look at the game and tell that high ground takes 30% less damage, but you can look to see that you can't attack high ground because you can't see it. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote: That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how. It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents. Your argument kinda proves that in the end you want BW units then eventually BW 2.0. This is what they will never do. There can be a unit with similar concept to BW units but work differently like widow mine and spider mine but they will never bring back BW units anymore. There are general concepts like space control unit,harass unit,multi purpose unit and more. They can make unit base around those concepts. | ||
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