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So, while I was at the HotS launch party I got a chance to do a long interview with Chris Sigaty, the Production Director of SC2, about a whole battery of topics ranging from the launch, to Brood War influence, Blizzard's interactions with the community, the WCS, Blizzard's eSports plans for next year, the Arcade, and Dustin's acknowledgement of failure with regards to the arcade in Heart of the Swarm. An excerpt's below, and you can read the full interview over at RTSGuru
RTS: So, when looking at some of the new units in Heart of the Swarm, it's pretty hard to not draw certain comparisons – like the Hellbat greatly resembles the Firebat, and the Viper looks a lot like the Defiler, the Widow Mine feels kind of like an evolved Spider Mine. Dustin and David have said in the past that this is sort of coincidence – but just in general, how often does the current StarCraft II team look at what was successful in Brood War when looking to iterate on the current design of StarCraft II?
Chris: I think those are very much coincidences. I think you can jump to Defiler comparisons, but the Viper is one of my favorite units because of Abduct, which is completely new. So, certainly not on purpose. If there is some of that, I think...one of the challenges, the areas that I certainly would sweat about, was here we are with Wings of Liberty, feeling pretty good about it getting better and better across time and really still in a discovery phase, even two years out, and now here we are with this Heart of the Swarm package, and we're going “What space are we going to fill here? Where are we going to put this new balance into the Terran, and what is the thing we're really trying to accomplish?”
So, a lot of it was finding the right niche, so the familiarity, if it is there, that certainly wasn't on purpose and I don't know if I agree that it's that way, but it was not because we looked to Brood War and said “What does Brood War have? Let's get that in there.” I think there are styles of things we're trying to get, addressing certain challenges, and things like AOE on a unit naturally played to a fire-based unit, so sure, you can draw a similarity, but it certainly wasn't because we wanted to. It does also play into the kits well – so there is some coincidence there but definitely not on purpose.
RTS: So...convergent design, I guess?
Chris: Yeah, I think to some degree. But it's certainly not us looking back to the “Brood War handbook” for advice or something, I think it was more “What is the whole? Let's try to work with this.” Ultimately, how did the Widow Mine evolve for example, and it changed and took on several different roles even during the beta. Where it ended up is what felt best for the game right there.
RTS: 2012 saw a major overhaul of the Arcade with the 1.5 patch, and Heart of the Swarm released and that overhauled quite a bit of the Battle.net UI with clans and groups, and all of that. In the FAQ for Heart of the Swarm, it also promised more upgrades to the Arcade – which Dustin commented on in the AMA last week and said that he feels that they “failed to deliver on that promise,” quoting him, so does Blizzard currently have plans to make further improvements to the Arcade and the custom map experience during Swarm?
Chris: Well, there were definitely things that did get added – as far as 1.5 and how big that patch was, I don't know that our intention was to do it again. I think we delivered the core essence of what we were after, but there were things even like how open games list that came online with 2.0 that feed better than what we did prior to this, and those sorts of changes are definitely still there and things that we'll still be continuing to look at. There are a number of different upgrades that came online with 2.0 which are really “part of Swarm” that make the life of a map developer, a game developer, the Arcade better, but I don't expect to see significance that way.
Where we continue to look are ways that we can better embrace Arcade and help this community out – these passionate creators make and be successful making games that way so yeah, I would expect to see some things come online over the next several months and certainly before Legacy of the Void that will continue to improve that landscape, but I guess to put it in perspective I wouldn't expect something at the level of what we saw with 1.5. That was significant, and that was really trying to get a more “App Store” like capability in the game, and we've done that now, we may tweak that but it won't be something as massive as that.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Looks like you got some decent answers and not vague non-answers like we generally get, nice job!
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I find it incredibly hard to believe that they're merry coincidences. Yes abduct is great with the new medivac boosters and the fact the viper can actually fly so there's a bit more to it. The good news is Blizzard got the memo about incorporating more defensive units and now we have several that have more versatility.
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Great interview good work!
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On March 19 2013 05:49 StarStruck wrote:
I find it incredibly hard to believe that they're merry coincidences. Yes abduct is great with the new medivac boosters and the fact the viper can actually fly so there's a bit more to it. The good news is Blizzard got the memo about incorporating more defensive units and now we have several that have more versatility.
Seriously, why not just admit they should have made a game that mirrored BW more from beginning?
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Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where.
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Wow Chris is a master of not really answering a question. I guess thats why he has that position, lol.
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Nice interview. Thanks for sharing.
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On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where?
I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games.
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On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games.
Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility.
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On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility.
David Kim
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On March 19 2013 06:14 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility. David Kim
Sure you can point out David Kim, but then I can point out the past couple years of SC2 balance. Maybe one guy isn't enough? Seems to me like things could have gone a lot smoother, and could go a lot better in the coming future.
Edit: Well who knows, maybe the people for the job are just really hard to find. It could also be an issue of lack of supply.
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On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility.
DK: 1. Proper Noun, an acronym refering to David Kim by shortening his name into the first letter of his first name and the first letter of his last name; see also Dakim and Dayvie.
DK: 2. Donkey-mother fucking-Kong.
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On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility.
I think it is a lot easier balance and design a game in hindsight sight. You should go back and read the reviews for WoL when they came out and how “basic” WoL was. Brad Shoemaker from Giant Bomb said it best “It was like Blizzard game in and said ‘Forget all that stupid shit you were doing with RTS games for 10 years. We did it right the first time and we did it best. Now you get more of that.” Compaired to other RTS games, who were all trying to "improve" RTS games, Blizzard took it back to what made BW great and this blew the mind of most of the “normal” gaming world. The part that really blew peoples minds was how much people loved it and wanted to watch people play it.
TL is kind of an insular community of very competitive game players. 95% of my friends in real life will never play SC2 multiplayer, ever, but they love the single player. Blizzard proved to the larger gaming world(reviewers, stock holders) that people like hard, competitive games. But to the people on TL, Blizzard only proved to them what they already knew.
So I can see why the idea “we should make it just like BW” did not take off in the meeting. Hell, I am sure they fought over if queen injects should be automatic. The idea that they aren’t still blows most of my friends minds.
Also, David Kim, head of balance.
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On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games.
Rob Pardo is a VP now but I don't know how knowledgeable he is about the scene that eventually developed.
Some of us aren't even looking at a player who played at a competitive level. Somebody who had some understanding of the scene and an eagerness to learn was enough. BW in Korea was big enough that it was watched by people who never played it. I stopped following BW from around 2003-2008, never played it after I started following it again, yet I felt that they didn't really understand the BW scene that developed. Their original design for WoL was wildly off the mark. HotS should have been what WoL was from release date if they just paid even the tiniest bit of attention.
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On March 19 2013 06:16 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:14 Grovbolle wrote:On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility. David Kim Sure you can point out David Kim, but then I can point out the past couple years of SC2 balance. Maybe one guy isn't enough? Seems to me like things could have gone a lot smoother, and could go a lot better in the coming future. Edit: Well who knows, maybe the people for the job are just really hard to find. It could also be an issue of lack of supply.
Lack of supply is the larger issue, I assume. Could you imagine trying to justify that persons salary without another skill set like programming? “So we would like to hire this guy for the balance team. He is really good at playing the previous game on a competitive level. No, no, he doesn’t program, but he has been a Korean B-teamer for Kespa team for 4 years. No, he doesn’t speak English. No, he has no computer skills beyond playing Brood War. Well, we do have another option for an English speaking player for the balance team. No, he doesn’t a degree in computer science, either.”
I am pretty sure that is how the discussion would go.
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On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome".
Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War.
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On March 19 2013 05:58 UndoneJin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 05:49 StarStruck wrote:
I find it incredibly hard to believe that they're merry coincidences. Yes abduct is great with the new medivac boosters and the fact the viper can actually fly so there's a bit more to it. The good news is Blizzard got the memo about incorporating more defensive units and now we have several that have more versatility. Seriously, why not just admit they should have made a game that mirrored BW more from beginning?
because it would mean admitting failure and ignorance on dustin browders part, something a man with his experience wouldn't be fond of doing
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On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where.
Blizzard still have many of people who worked on BW. People who worked on BW are mostly the core people of Blizzard Irvine actually such as Rob Pardo but the team can't remain the same. People moved in their positions. Oh and I think the mentality "trying to see what area SC2 lacks and focus on it" they have is better than "trying to look at BW and copy from it". I seriously wouldn't buy SC2 if it was released as BW in hd.
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after read it, I can't help but feel CS was the responsible of the bad side in WoL
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On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War.
Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then.
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On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then.
Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense.
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On March 19 2013 06:33 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where. Blizzard still have many of people who worked on BW. People who worked on BW are mostly the core people of Blizzard Irvine actually such as Rob Pardo but the team can't remain the same. People moved in their positions. Oh and I think the mentality "trying to see what area SC2 lacks and focus on it" they have is better than "trying to look at BW and copy from it". I seriously wouldn't buy SC2 if it was released as BW in hd.
The rest of the world would not have bought that either. If you told normal player"And you can select 12 units at a time, still" they would have thrown a fit. The more amazing part of SC2 was how little they changed from the basic gameplay, which blew everyone's mind when it was released. The fact that some of the units are kinda like BW units is not that shocking.
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It's funny because most mainstream media points out how there's basically nothing new in SCII but BW fans always want it to more closely mirror its predecessor. Lose-lose.
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On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense.
I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started.
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On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense.
That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed.
It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how.
It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents.
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Well, if all the plans get integrated in LotV, then sc2 might actually become a really brilliant game! :D
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God I want a tournament system like the one he's describing so bad.
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On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense. That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how. It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents.
Haha, I agree. I wonder how many people share my sentiments and would've been utterly content with a graphical overhaul of Starcraft Brood War and all excess funds that were invested into balancing flowing into improved UI and BattleNet and longer campaigns.
But as of now, I am content with HotS, let's see what the imminent future brings.
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Reading the part about battle.net tournaments, i had completely forgot about that. Warcraft III had battle.net tournaments. You could play a max of 8 games, and the top 16-32 got to play off. If you won 1-0, you'd play someone with 1-0. If u had 7-0, same thing. It was a fun and easy way to compete on something else than ladder. It also had icons based off how many tournament wins u had, which was enough of a reward.
Something similar should definately be added to sc2! They could even have their own pair of casters for say, a monthly online finals, which would accumulate alot of views im sure. If they had that technology in 2003, i kinda question why they haven't implemented it in sc2..
Hoping for it!
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On March 19 2013 06:42 CecilSunkure wrote:
I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started.
I don't think BW was ignored at all in the design of SC2, but I think that SC2, being built on a modern 3D game engine, is so architecturally different that the really subtle, specific lessons (like details of how carrier micro worked affecting its usability at the pro level, or how newer, smarter unit pathing resulted directly in unit clumping and the tendency toward a "deathball") aren't necessarily fully obvious even to the developers until the game is put out there in the hands of the pros.
Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process.
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On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:
That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed.
I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result.
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On March 19 2013 07:02 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:
That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result.
So they could've opted for a straight damage reduction that would effectively mimic the overall effect of random miss chance. 30% damage reduction is roughly equal to 30% evasion statistically over time.
Instead, they made a conscious design choice to eliminate high ground advantage.
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On March 19 2013 07:02 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:
That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result.
Yeah, and they actually thought that SC2 high ground created more terrain-based play than in BW since you couldn't shoot up at all without vision. It just didn't really work out that way.
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On March 19 2013 07:00 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:42 CecilSunkure wrote:
I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started. Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process.
Thats not true actually, broodwar wasnt a true expansion because the units were already made before they released starcraft
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On March 19 2013 07:00 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:42 CecilSunkure wrote:
I don't advocate making BW in HD. I just advocate making the best attempt at taking what was great from BW and learn from it. Nobody can deny BW was immensely successful. Perhaps there was never a proper appreciation for what BW became, and so it was ignored when SC2 was started. I don't think BW was ignored at all in the design of SC2, but I think that SC2, being built on a modern 3D game engine, is so architecturally different that the really subtle, specific lessons (like details of how carrier micro worked affecting its usability at the pro level, or how newer, smarter unit pathing resulted directly in unit clumping and the tendency toward a "deathball") aren't necessarily fully obvious even to the developers until the game is put out there in the hands of the pros. Remember that Brood War was an expansion that was built on specific, fresh knowledge of the issues that the original release of Starcraft had. It was built on the same engine and was designed to fix problems and plug holes in the original. Where Heart of the Swarm and LOTV end up in comparison to Brood War will be a better test of their design process.
Also remember that a lot of the things that increased the skill required in BW were unintentional, not the result of great game design. Mutalisk stacking, for instance.
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On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where.
Sigaty personally worked on BW.
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BW was a fluke, I'm not sure you could actually design for something like that.
Rob Pardo was also part of the BW QA team, and he was one of the guys who helped developed the lurker. Guess what? The guy lives the idea of small maps alongside big maps - he's a fan of Steps of War. It's not a matter of just getting the people on BW to SC2, that cheapens how much the community did the develop the game.
Also, consider that SC2 was already a 'risk' in the eyes of some game designers. They were essentially remaking a game very similar to a 10 year old game, with a lot of the same units and gameplay. I'm pretty sure some mainstream reviewers and critics of SC2 pointed out how the game 'failed to innovate' while a lot of other RTS games are trying new things. I'm not saying that SC2 should have gone in that direction, but I think if you consider what a modern game designer has to do in the current ecosystem, it gives a more broad perspective than just "why isn't SC2 the same as BW"
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On March 19 2013 07:07 ShiroKaisen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 07:02 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:
That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. I don't think they changed high-ground mechanics for the sake of being different -- I think they did it because they felt that a system based on random chance could undermine the impact of skill upon a game result. So they could've opted for a straight damage reduction that would effectively mimic the overall effect of random miss chance. 30% damage reduction is roughly equal to 30% evasion statistically over time. Instead, they made a conscious design choice to eliminate high ground advantage.
The main reason is to make the game play the way it looks. You can't look at the game and tell that high ground takes 30% less damage, but you can look to see that you can't attack high ground because you can't see it.
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On March 19 2013 06:49 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense. That's not really the issue. Neither is UI stuff auto-mining or unlimited unit selection or what not. The issue is changing stuff like high ground mechanics just for the sake of being different. Or removing key units and abilities that they now realize is needed. It feels like Blizzard took a list of all the units and spells in BW, drew an arbitrary line in the middle, then said we're keeping the ones in the left side in SC2 and removing the ones in the right side. And no matter how the metagame in SC2 develops, if that BW unit/spell that people are requesting falls on the right side of their line, it's not coming back. No way. No how. It reminds me too much of the teenager who tries too hard to be different to his parents.
Your argument kinda proves that in the end you want BW units then eventually BW 2.0. This is what they will never do. There can be a unit with similar concept to BW units but work differently like widow mine and spider mine but they will never bring back BW units anymore. There are general concepts like space control unit,harass unit,multi purpose unit and more. They can make unit base around those concepts.
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i'd like to know why they turned the game into spellcraft...
is it merely for "cool graphics" effect or do they really think spells are good for balance, fun and skill?
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On March 19 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:
i'd like to know why they turned the game into spellcraft...
is it merely for "cool graphics" effect or do they really think spells are good for balance, fun and skill?
It's because without patrol micro, muta micro, single building selection, 12 unit selection, and BW pathing there isn't as much for players to do. Spells and abilities give good players more shit to do with their APM.
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On March 19 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:
i'd like to know why they turned the game into spellcraft...
is it merely for "cool graphics" effect or do they really think spells are good for balance, fun and skill?
Would you prefer a move craft? Lol
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Hong Kong9158 Posts
good interview man, you asked a lot of good questions and got some interesting answers as a result
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On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where.
Unless you are suggesting that they should have worked on BW to know how NOT to balance a game, then you are flat out bonkers. If HotS was made the same was BW was the warhound would still be in it as would the mothership with vortex
BW was balanced by maps, usually Kespa maps. BW was no where near balanced, every race had at least one thing that was massively OP and there was a definite pecking order to the races. WoL is a far more balanced game, or at least it was until the end of WoL and the infestor abuse.
BW managed to do something no game has done before or ever will again, be considered the best game in its genre ever despite the fact that it was glaringly not balanced well. Blizzard had very little to do with making BW balanced, they stopped patching it long before they got even close. BW was in some ways balanced by the lack of balance and I'm fine with SC2 going down that route.
I would love to see everything that is OP (unless its completely broken like the old fungal) left in and in turn you give slight buffs to its counters so that its not broken but is still OP. Things being OP allows for the best of the other races to show superior skill to beat it, makes for epic games etc. Atm in HotS we are seeing amazing stuff both from people defending Medivacs (Rain) and using them (Last,Inno,Flash), dont nerf it at all.... let the best be able to stop it and the rest be forced to work harder or lose. Give a slight buff to stalkers so toss have options other than phoenix to stop it. Give a slight buff to a couple zerg units to help stop it, but dont nerf the medivac.
Something like Stalkers get blink for free once you build Twilight but the cooldown is twice as long, upgrade at twilight to halve the cooldown, that sounds pretty fair to me. Would help in defence but on offense would often leave you stuck somewhere you dont want to be for 5 extra seconds
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On March 19 2013 08:11 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 07:24 jinorazi wrote:
i'd like to know why they turned the game into spellcraft...
is it merely for "cool graphics" effect or do they really think spells are good for balance, fun and skill? Would you prefer a move craft? Lol
i personally would prefer abilities in small increments where a better player can perform slightly better through micro rather than spells/having the right unit. small increments as in range upgrade, speed upgrade, abilities instead of jumping almost straight to spells and becoming spell dependent.
some prefer colossus "micro" and some prefer reaver/shuttle micro...i guess thats the difference?
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Personally I really miss things like moving shot, patrol micro, and muta micro more than anything else from BW.
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On March 19 2013 08:57 ShiroKaisen wrote:
Personally I really miss things like moving shot, patrol micro, and muta micro more than anything else from BW.
as do many but we're just talking nostalgic nonsense to many people.
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On March 19 2013 06:16 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:14 Grovbolle wrote:On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility. David Kim Sure you can point out David Kim, but then I can point out the past couple years of SC2 balance. Maybe one guy isn't enough? Seems to me like things could have gone a lot smoother, and could go a lot better in the coming future. Edit: Well who knows, maybe the people for the job are just really hard to find. It could also be an issue of lack of supply.
What are you talking about? You said you don't know who DK is and I answered.
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France1436 Posts
Widow Mine feels kind of like an evolved Spider Mine
To me it feels more like lesser version of the spider mine
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On March 19 2013 18:04 algue wrote:To me it feels more like lesser version of the spider mine
Well, it's "evolved," that doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
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On March 19 2013 18:19 ShiroKaisen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 18:04 algue wrote:Widow Mine feels kind of like an evolved Spider Mine To me it feels more like lesser version of the spider mine Well, it's "evolved," that doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
usually things evolved in to much superior forms but whatever....
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The tournament system is the biggest feature I miss in Starcraft 2. So much fun was had in the Warcraft 3 tournaments (with their separate rewards, like portraits, also). I guess most guys on Teamliquid still were SC1 players so they don't know this feature at all, but if they did, the outcry for it would probably have been a lot bigger :D
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On March 19 2013 08:25 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the balance/design skill seems to be who knows where. Unless you are suggesting that they should have worked on BW to know how NOT to balance a game, then you are flat out bonkers. If HotS was made the same was BW was the warhound would still be in it as would the mothership with vortex BW was balanced by maps, usually Kespa maps. BW was no where near balanced, every race had at least one thing that was massively OP and there was a definite pecking order to the races. WoL is a far more balanced game, or at least it was until the end of WoL and the infestor abuse. BW managed to do something no game has done before or ever will again, be considered the best game in its genre ever despite the fact that it was glaringly not balanced well. Blizzard had very little to do with making BW balanced, they stopped patching it long before they got even close. BW was in some ways balanced by the lack of balance and I'm fine with SC2 going down that route. I would love to see everything that is OP (unless its completely broken like the old fungal) left in and in turn you give slight buffs to its counters so that its not broken but is still OP. Things being OP allows for the best of the other races to show superior skill to beat it, makes for epic games etc. Atm in HotS we are seeing amazing stuff both from people defending Medivacs (Rain) and using them (Last,Inno,Flash), dont nerf it at all.... let the best be able to stop it and the rest be forced to work harder or lose. Give a slight buff to stalkers so toss have options other than phoenix to stop it. Give a slight buff to a couple zerg units to help stop it, but dont nerf the medivac. Something like Stalkers get blink for free once you build Twilight but the cooldown is twice as long, upgrade at twilight to halve the cooldown, that sounds pretty fair to me. Would help in defence but on offense would often leave you stuck somewhere you dont want to be for 5 extra seconds
cool idea with the blink 
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On March 19 2013 18:34 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 18:19 ShiroKaisen wrote:On March 19 2013 18:04 algue wrote:Widow Mine feels kind of like an evolved Spider Mine To me it feels more like lesser version of the spider mine Well, it's "evolved," that doesn't necessarily mean it's better. usually things evolved in to much superior forms but whatever....
I dunno what part of not self destructing to attack and being able to hit air is not superior to you, but whatever >_>
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I don't understand why people want a replica of BW still. They don't want it to be exactly the same. That'd be a waste of time to Blizzard.
I feel like SC2 is much larger of a game than BW was ever. Perhaps it was huge in Korea but not so much on a global level. Anyone outside of Korea couldn't make a living off of playing it and now look what has become to all those pros who were "trying to make it" I guess you could say.
Anyways, Kudos to Chris and his team. I think they're doing a fantastic job as they are trying to please everyone who all want different things(casual, hardcore and everyone in between).
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On March 19 2013 18:34 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 18:19 ShiroKaisen wrote:On March 19 2013 18:04 algue wrote:Widow Mine feels kind of like an evolved Spider Mine To me it feels more like lesser version of the spider mine Well, it's "evolved," that doesn't necessarily mean it's better. usually things evolved in to much superior forms but whatever....
Nope, that's not what evolution means. It's just change over time in response to your environment. Birds are way less cool than dinosaurs, but birds evolved from them. Checkmate.
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What's up with that WoL alpha screenshot? It's even got the little gummy bear infestors. Those things were so cute.
So from my perspective, it is the right thing – there are some other major changes that aren't even new units that were added, like siege tank research and the fact that it's automatic now is a massive change, and I love it as a Terran player myself, and so things like that felt even better than just having a unit because we had a unit in the beta. So I think, for the most part, and I don't want to speak on behalf of Dustin or David Kim, but I think it makes sense and the sense was there that these other changes were the right answers rather than that being the one and that we were “beholden” to have to have the unit because we tried it in the beta.
Yes, these changes were some of my favorite additions (+ the Widow Mine). I'm not nearly as excited about Hellbats as I am medivac speed, for example. I feel like for LOTV Blizzard should go through and improve all the lame stuff (Corruptors, good lord Corruptors), and add only a single unit for each race. One that's really awesome and matchup changing, like Widow Mines are.
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Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release.
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On March 19 2013 19:35 golgo_13 wrote:
Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release.
how is this in any way relevant to the interview? Just go with that conspiracy idealistic nonsense to some other forum.
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On March 19 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:16 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:14 Grovbolle wrote:On March 19 2013 06:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:08 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Can't we just admit that the guys that made Brood War made some golden decisions and then learn from them? I feel like some humility could go a long way.
Feels to me like an issue of "we have better tech and artists now, therefor we have better design too", when really the design skill seems to who knows where? I think the number of people who played broodwar on some sort of competitive level(that would be accepted by TL as competitive) that also have the programming/artistic/writing skills to work at Blizzard might be a very small group of people(ie, zero). Even DK has a degree in computer science along with being pretty good at games. Don't know who DK is, but I've done some professional design and balance work on a AAA RTS. Really it doesn't take a genius to come up with good decisions so much as someone that listens and has a proper sense of humility. David Kim Sure you can point out David Kim, but then I can point out the past couple years of SC2 balance. Maybe one guy isn't enough? Seems to me like things could have gone a lot smoother, and could go a lot better in the coming future. Edit: Well who knows, maybe the people for the job are just really hard to find. It could also be an issue of lack of supply. Lack of supply is the larger issue, I assume. Could you imagine trying to justify that persons salary without another skill set like programming? “So we would like to hire this guy for the balance team. He is really good at playing the previous game on a competitive level. No, no, he doesn’t program, but he has been a Korean B-teamer for Kespa team for 4 years. No, he doesn’t speak English. No, he has no computer skills beyond playing Brood War. Well, we do have another option for an English speaking player for the balance team. No, he doesn’t a degree in computer science, either.” I am pretty sure that is how the discussion would go.
You're really far off here...
Design and Product work is so far removed from programming that I've never seen that as a pre-requisite when hiring someone for that role. He works at a video game company sure, but everything he does is so abstracted from the actual code that him knowing how to program is completely meaningless.
This could be a coincidence or not, but in my career the worst PMs have always been those that thought they knew everything about programming, but usually they just illustrated the Dunning-Kruger effect. I've had good PMs who had a programming background of course, but by and large it's pretty irrelevant (except for those that throw it around like it gives their ideas more credibility).
But to your point, I would assume the biggest barrier to hiring someone for the job is how exactly you quantify what would make someone a good balance designer. I mean seriously, how could you prove it?
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Bisutopia19298 Posts
It seems like he was ashamed to get ideas from Brood War. I am tired of them saying that this is a new game when it is indeed a sequel to an amazing game. There is nothing wrong with drawing ideas from the something that is your own! They should embrace anything related to Brood War rather then side step it.
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On March 19 2013 18:45 heishe wrote:
The tournament system is the biggest feature I miss in Starcraft 2. So much fun was had in the Warcraft 3 tournaments (with their separate rewards, like portraits, also). I guess most guys on Teamliquid still were SC1 players so they don't know this feature at all, but if they did, the outcry for it would probably have been a lot bigger :D
This would've been such an awesome feature. Instead of needing third-parties like Playhem you could just join automated Battlenet tournaments with special rewards. Would also make Battlenet even more social and such.
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I can totally believe that there was a sort of convergent evolution from WoL to HotS to a more BWesque state.
For what I understand, when they made WoL they tried to avoid as much BW influence as they could, because they wanted the game to stand on its own as a "new" Starcraft, not SC2: BW 3D version. However, as they progressed it was obvious that BW did such a great job. The old game had interesting, compelling gameplay, and dynamic units. It's hard to avoid using ideas from BW, as much as they wanted to.
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On March 19 2013 19:45 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 19:35 golgo_13 wrote:
Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release. how is this in any way relevant to the interview? Just go with that conspiracy idealistic nonsense to some other forum.
Isn't it obvious? If you believe anything these guys say, including any interviews they do, and expect them to not put a positive spin on every failure, every shortcoming, every underhanded money grabbing tactic, and instead fawn on every word that comes out of their mouths, you deserve to be fleeced.
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Saying that it's mostly a coincidence is a joke. Half the units in Starcraft 2 are HEAVILY influenced from Brood War.
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On March 19 2013 19:35 golgo_13 wrote:
Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release.
Chris Sigaty is actually the most alright dude you're going to find when searching for interviews with Blizzard. He's actually the one that first admitted that no-lan was partially because of piracy. I've never seen him bullshit in interviews, really.
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On March 19 2013 20:10 golgo_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 19:45 vojnik wrote:On March 19 2013 19:35 golgo_13 wrote:
Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release. how is this in any way relevant to the interview? Just go with that conspiracy idealistic nonsense to some other forum. Isn't it obvious? If you believe anything these guys say, including any interviews they do, and expect them to not put a positive spin on every failure, every shortcoming, every underhanded money grabbing tactic, and instead fawn on every word that comes out of their mouths, you deserve to be fleeced.
so far people are quite positive with HOTS and the direction is taking, so if you have any related comment to the actual topics discussed in the interview just stop with that kind of nonsence please. I am pretty much happily scammed by blizzard at the moment, i am enjoying every aspect of hots.
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On March 19 2013 20:20 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 19:35 golgo_13 wrote:
Hard to believe people still take corporate BS at face value. These are the same managers and higher ups that gave you the Diablo3 farce, with all the lies and hype leading up to its release. Chris Sigaty is actually the most alright dude you're going to find when searching for interviews with Blizzard. He's actually the one that first admitted that no-lan was partially because of piracy. I've never seen him bullshit in interviews, really.
No, "no-lan as a countermeasure to piracy" was the positive spin.
The real reason was and continues to be control. Control to prevent anything like KeSPA ever springing up again. Control so every tournament be vetted and blessed by Blizzard. Control such that Blizzard would have its grubby fingers in every pie. I'm sure if SC2 took off like they thought it would, they'd have charged customers for every last bit of trivial and taken-for-granted feature. It was only after they realized how fast WOL was sinking they allowed users the most basic features like single name-changes, better ways to distribute custom maps, etc.
Then they tried to pull the same shit again with another one of their popular franchises, Diablo3, building the whole game around the online store, sacrificing gameplay and user experience in the process. Who could forget the fiasco when that was released.
Yet people still think Blizzard makes truthfull statements in interviews? Blizzard may take pains to outwardly portray itself as a friendly, fun company that still has customer satisfaction as their number one priority, like they did in the old days, but their internal culture can be described by one simple statement. "FUCK THAT LOSER."
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On March 19 2013 20:09 Gravesong wrote:
For what I understand, when they made WoL they tried to avoid as much BW influence as they could, because they wanted the game to stand on its own as a "new" Starcraft, not SC2: BW 3D version. However, as they progressed it was obvious that BW did such a great job. The old game had interesting, compelling gameplay, and dynamic units. It's hard to avoid using ideas from BW, as much as they wanted to.
Really, because it seems like the opposite happened. Blizzard started development by recreating BW in the SC2 engine. They then added units on top of the existing BW favorites. For example, the Colossus wasn't intended to replace the Reaver, but as development went on they found that things like Dark Swarm, scarabs, Spider Mines etc. were incompatible with SC2's pathing AI.
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On March 19 2013 06:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 19 2013 06:32 Lysenko wrote:On March 19 2013 06:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sadly doesn't sound like they have any employees that worked on or played Brood War. Explains all the headaches we've had on balance since SC2's release. I get a feeling of ego from his words "No we wouldn't dare go look at that old dusty tome". Funny you'd say that, because Chris Sigaty was head of quality assurance on Starcraft: Brood War. Well I suppose I just don't understand what's going on in there then. Like the guy a couple posts up said, it's just that their philosophy with HOTS was to look at the game in front of them and figure out how to make it better, rather than say "how can we make this more like Brood War." I agree with that earlier poster that they're taking the right approach in that sense.
The thing is that they have NOT made the game "better" ... they made the game "easier to macro" and "lazy to manage units", but those things have a consequence and too many units in a tight formation are a pain to balance against each other compared to "just a handful" as it was in BW.
More flashy skills and so on is not the same as better.
On March 19 2013 20:44 golgo_13 wrote:
Yet people still think Blizzard makes truthfull statements in interviews? Blizzard may take pains to outwardly portray itself as a friendly, fun company that still has customer satisfaction as their number one priority, like they did in the old days, but their internal culture can be described by one simple statement. "FUCK THAT LOSER."
Their "not so truthful statements" should have been made abundantly clear when Dustin Browder stated (in one of the interviews from their tournament in China) that they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP ... and then did nothing to make it actually viable except to fiddle around with the units which didnt need to be fiddled with and added units in HotS which make bio better.
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What a load of bullshit..
I would of respected him a great deal more if he just admitted they took pages from the BW handbook. The Viper isn't the defiler redesigned? Bullshit. They realized that Zerg needed something like the defiler, took its core ability, added the new ability and made it a flying unit. That doesn't make it not darn near a copy paste. Now I am not complaining mind you. I think many of the "obvious BW units" were needed and add a great deal to the game. I am just calling bullshit on the statement "Oh it is just coincidence". SC2 players aren't stupid.
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On March 19 2013 21:41 Dekoth wrote:
What a load of bullshit..
I would of respected him a great deal more if he just admitted they took pages from the BW handbook. The Viper isn't the defiler redesigned? Bullshit. They realized that Zerg needed something like the defiler, took its core ability, added the new ability and made it a flying unit. That doesn't make it not darn near a copy paste. Now I am not complaining mind you. I think many of the "obvious BW units" were needed and add a great deal to the game. I am just calling bullshit on the statement "Oh it is just coincidence". SC2 players aren't stupid.
now suppose for a minute he speaks the truth. How can he possibly defend himself?
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On March 19 2013 21:41 Dekoth wrote:
What a load of bullshit..
I would of respected him a great deal more if he just admitted they took pages from the BW handbook. The Viper isn't the defiler redesigned? Bullshit. They realized that Zerg needed something like the defiler, took its core ability, added the new ability and made it a flying unit. That doesn't make it not darn near a copy paste. Now I am not complaining mind you. I think many of the "obvious BW units" were needed and add a great deal to the game. I am just calling bullshit on the statement "Oh it is just coincidence". SC2 players aren't stupid.
Dark Swarm and Blinding Cloud are very different, nearly inverses. One protects, one debuffs. The end result is superficially similar sometimes but Dark Swarm in SC2 would be completely insane. Also that the Viper flies isn't just a small thing. The Defiler is unique in BW Zerg army for how slow it is whereas the Viper is very mobile. Not close to a copy paste.
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What I would like them to admit openly (but I understand that they wouldn't, ever) is that with both WoL and HotS they began from a polished, well working current game (BW, then WoL, to some extent at least) and they *had to* just change it... for the sake of changing it. Not for the sake of "improving" it, necessarily. They just had to... pretend... they are producing something "new", so that they can put that on the market.
So they ended up destroying units and mechanics that were working great, just for the sake of change, and to be able to say: "Hey, here's a completely new product, we can claim a substantial price for it (and it will work, because it's a legendary franchise that people will buy no matter what)."
Anyway. CS is a cool guy in general, but the way he talks (he doesn't even remember the number of missions in WoL and HotS) nowadays he is more detached from these games and more of a manager guy. Which is a bit sad, even if expected.
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Canada11369 Posts
I kinda wonder the same thing as Cecil- although there is a fair number of people that worked onboth. But it is not about BW HD
Even if you look at the struggles that the community has had making Blizzard understand even what is meant by 'moving shot' and 'carrier micro' has seemed such an uphill battle.
As a D level Protoss on iccup, I don't actually understand how you can be familiar with competitive BW and NOT know the importance of moving shot in being the primary mover in making air harass interesting. And the fact that this sort of micro was only tried on one unit (the Phoenix) and even the implementation was not at all what was being described. (The difference in feeling is that of a whip crack vs a car constantly drifting around every corner it makes.)
And this is a micro mechanic (amongst others) that can be applied to absolutely any NEW SC2 unit and make it awesome. Applied learning, not copy/paste.
Or how Carrier micro had to be spelled out by Tyler (and in the end it was only half-implemented.) But it wasn't even the case of getting rid of carrier micro and adding something new and cool because this is SC2 and we're out to improve. It was just straight up gone. They were even going to ditch the Carrier because surprise, surprise it was a boring A-move unit. But it shouldn't have been a surprise because again as a D level Protoss player, even I knew about this micro. I couldn't have described it as succintly- these things usually take me 3000 words and lots of pictures. But I certainly knew about it and had practiced it from time to time.
Nor was it a case of getting rid of 'fighting the game' mechanics. Both carriers can be A-moved, no problem. But the part that made it interesting was completely gone and with no replacement. How was this stuff missed? I dunno, but it is curious nonetheless.
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On March 20 2013 07:21 figq wrote:
What I would like them to admit openly (but I understand that they wouldn't, ever) is that with both WoL and HotS they began from a polished, well working current game (BW, then WoL, to some extent at least) and they *had to* just change it... for the sake of changing it. Not for the sake of "improving" it, necessarily. They just had to... pretend... they are producing something "new", so that they can put that on the market.
I don't know, I keep hearing the pros talking about how HOTS is a much better game than WoL. That tells me that, while the desire to release an expansion surely was driving the need to make changes, the changes they made in multiplayer were probably with intent to improve the game.
As for Chris Sigaty, he's a producer, which means that a lot of the details are not his job. He's the guy responsible for making sure the right team is in place to handle the details.
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On March 20 2013 08:20 Falling wrote:
I kinda wonder the same thing as Cecil- although there is a fair number of people that worked onboth. But it is not about BW HD
Even if you look at the struggles that the community has had making Blizzard understand even what is meant by 'moving shot' and 'carrier micro' has seemed such an uphill battle.
As a D level Protoss on iccup, I don't actually understand how you can be familiar with competitive BW and NOT know the importance of moving shot in being the primary mover in making air harass interesting. And the fact that this sort of micro was only tried on one unit (the Phoenix) and even the implementation was not at all what was being described. (The difference in feeling is that of a whip crack vs a car constantly drifting around every corner it makes.)
And this is a micro mechanic (amongst others) that can be applied to absolutely any NEW SC2 unit and make it awesome. Applied learning, not copy/paste.
Or how Carrier micro had to be spelled out by Tyler (and in the end it was only half-implemented.) But it wasn't even the case of getting rid of carrier micro and adding something new and cool because this is SC2 and we're out to improve. It was just straight up gone. They were even going to ditch the Carrier because surprise, surprise it was a boring A-move unit. But it shouldn't have been a surprise because again as a D level Protoss player, even I knew about this micro. I couldn't have described it as succintly- these things usually take me 3000 words and lots of pictures. But I certainly knew about it and had practiced it from time to time.
Nor was it a case of getting rid of 'fighting the game' mechanics. Both carriers can be A-moved, no problem. But the part that made it interesting was completely gone and with no replacement. How was this stuff missed? I dunno, but it is curious nonetheless.
This is one of the biggest things that I dislike about Starcraft 2. The fact that not a single unit in the game other than the phoenix can attack while moving just makes the units so uninteresting to use. Not one unit in the game comes CLOSE to being as much fun to micro as the vulture. Muta micro on its own made me play some zerg in Brood War. There's nothing even resembling that sort of thing in Starcraft 2.
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That tournament system he was describing sounds really brilliant, hope to see it in LotV.
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Utterly ridiculous that he is trying to defend himself with "it is a coincidence",
The convergent design statement is very appropriate, and blizzard should realize that there is no way to create units without making them similar to units that we have seen before.
Instead of trying to defend themselves for something they dont have to, they should copy the shit out of everything that works and stand behind that decision.
They are trying too hard to come up with unique design (for no other reason than "just because") and end up creating the same stuff anyways (but then they try to cover it up because of their "pride").
Ridiculous.
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Gh0un I think you're taking this too personally. The "coincidence" statement only means it wasn't a goal on their list of goals, not that any alignment between BW & HOTS is entirely meaningless.
Edit: yeah that would be the literal meaning, but in context I'm pretty sure that wasn't his point.
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EPT
