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Fatam
1986 Posts
Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Barrin is more qualified than most here to make such a list. And his list is at least partially based on facts, rather than garbage like "Well I always hated playing TvP on Cloud Kingdom, therefore it's an average map and shouldn't be #1". | ||
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spalding
95 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:19 Fatam wrote: List is pretty solid to be honest. Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. you mean using facts like TvZ: 388-592 (39.6%) on daybreak? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 09 2013 20:55 gylka wrote: If he "knows his shit" then why he has Shakuras (btw, there's many Shakurases, early Shakuras was even worse) and Crossfire at "best maps" with absolutely trash PvZ there. Btw, you can add Calm before the Storm to extreme, so as many Kespa maps. Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Actualy winrate is somewhat anecdotal evidence too if you think a bit. For example there's maps where toss NO WAY cant take a 3rd vs zerg and does 2base immo all-in every single game and has like a bit below 50% winrate cause this all-in still strong but still that map is terrible because it gives only 1 strategy for toss. (Abyssal City is an example) Btw, on winrates Antiga Shipyard is one of the best maps (if not the best) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/500 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/500 In both korean and international all matchups are 50%. But it's still terrible map. Crossfire has ZvP >60% winrate and its a terrible map. Where's Daybreak is 50% in all matchups except TvZ <40%. And Daybreak is realy good map (it's just zerg is imba, lol). Actualy its a bad game design that any matchup vs a Zerg is so map dependant (especialy PvZ), where's TvP is not that hugely map dependant. On March 09 2013 21:25 Plexa wrote: Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. Oh I didnt saw that was written below @The "BEST" WoL Maps@ with small letters  "With some consideration given to metagame @ map's release." Well, that could be about last version of Shakuras but Crossfire was always terrible, many players said that even early when started playing that map and even Tastosis somewhat hinted at it in their casts. | ||
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Graphix
United States208 Posts
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
And the map should be called good because it gives each race ability to play different strategy. On Daybreak you can play 2-base allin, you can 3 base, you can 4 base, different openings, etc. Where's some maps are bad because they force player to play only 1-2 strategies. | ||
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Utopi
Denmark176 Posts
some fun games on it | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
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Poopi
France13023 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:25 Plexa wrote: Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. Yeah but I still don't see how in the world crossfire is a good map. I have watched a lot of games on it, played on it against high caliber players, and even antiga with his gold expansions and imbalanced TvT (when it had 4 spots) is still a better map. Shakuras was cool for its time though. | ||
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Spoink
Austria150 Posts
I would like to have Xel Naga slightly changed back even thoug it isnt really balanced. | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
Unique maps take a unique playstyle or at the very least altered style. People often complained of ZvT on the map, but when i saw july play on it, it looked incredibly zerg favoured. Positioning is an under appreciated and under utilized skill set within the game, and naturally a map that is so positionally based will favor only a handful of players, but the games they played on this map or could have played on this map are glorious. Theres a reason only innovation and Ryung seem to be able to play whirlwind TvZ. some slight tweeking for PvZ is all this map needed. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:19 Fatam wrote: List is pretty solid to be honest. Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Barrin is more qualified than most here to make such a list. And his list is at least partially based on facts, rather than garbage like "Well I always hated playing TvP on Cloud Kingdom, therefore it's an average map and shouldn't be #1". Yeah because this is TL, and the longer someones avrage post length is, the more qualified he is. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Poopi
France13023 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:40 Bodzilla wrote: if you guys didnt like crossfire it's because you didn't see it played right. Unique maps take a unique playstyle or at the very least altered style. People often complained of ZvT on the map, but when i saw july play on it, it looked incredibly zerg favoured. Positioning is an under appreciated and under utilized skill set within the game, and naturally a map that is so positionally based will favor only a handful of players, but the games they played on this map or could have played on this map are glorious. Theres a reason only innovation and Ryung seem to be able to play whirlwind TvZ. some slight tweeking for PvZ is all this map needed. You do know that crossfire WAS zerg favoured? Tastosis said at first that it was terran favored because of the small chokes and stuff but it was actually the other way around, balance wise. It's one of the worst GSL maps :s. | ||
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SigmaFiE
United States333 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:42 Sea_Food wrote: Yeah because this is TL, and the longer someones avrage post length is, the more qualified he is. Actually, we give high regard to Barrin's posts because they are well thought out and continue to push the map making area. You really want a lesson in maps and what's good and/or bad? Step into our subforum and/or skype channel and watch us rip each other apart. It's a lesson in the wild kingdom of eat or be eaten. On Point: I can respect this list. I think we moved to quickly away from some things Blizzard was trying (and still is) that are worth more inspection. Now if only we can get some games.... cough cough | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:43 Poopi wrote: You do know that crossfire WAS zerg favoured? Tastosis said at first that it was terran favored because of the small chokes and stuff but it was actually the other way around, balance wise. It's one of the worst GSL maps :s. towards the end, but it took leenock and and nestea laying baneling mines EVERYWHERE (at the time a VERY under utilized ability) before we got to a ZvT favoured match-up. Take into account the meta-game problems at the time and the shift that occurred and it's not unreasonable. At the time it was 3 seige tank push's to the zergs nat all day erry day, and zergs started to learn that counter attacks, creep spread and mines where pretty good. When they buffed the min patches for tvz and pvz it was only a matter of time before it would have stabilized again. At the time i dont think any of the truly good positional players such as Ryung ever played TvZ. I think he was still only in GSTL and Byun was banned unless i'm mistaken. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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frozzz
Croatia118 Posts
while antiga was nowhere the best top5 maps or so because it clearly suited agressive terran play (eventho in tvz this wasnt that relevant after all the buffs that were made to zerg and when they started playing greedy style) you definitely cant put it to worst maps ever (especially considering how long it is in ladder & gsl mappool(ok it got removed from gsl last season)) | ||
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Gemini_sc2
Norway69 Posts
I miss some of these old maps | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I won't criticize the actual list, its just one guys opinion. Cut down the "terrible terrible damage" jokes though, its not funny. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12067 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:33 Bagi wrote: I find Cloud Kingdom to be extremely overrated, and medivac boosters are already making it extremely imbalanced for HOTS. Good riddance to that map. I won't criticize the actual list, its just one guys opinion. Cut down the "terrible terrible damage" jokes though, its not funny. Not only just medivac drops, but blink all ins on that map as a meching terran are just ridiculous to try and deal with. | ||
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