EPTImportant Maps of WoL
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Enel
Sudan430 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
 ).The awful list of maps though was pretty spot on oh man looking at those maps almost reminded me of my nightmares :D | ||
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WhiteSatin
United States308 Posts
I strongly disagree with some of the choices for both best and worst maps, but hey, matter of personal taste  | ||
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DifuntO
Greece2376 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
People should try to understand what kind of approach the author did though. It is, as whitesatin said, a matter of personal taste. Terrible maps is a easy one to make Best maps is very debatable. | ||
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
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Kiyo.
United States2284 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
omg | ||
Poopi
France12797 Posts
. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
 I do hope they bring it back in HotS despite people being sick of it apparently | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9190 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
Overall I think its just wrong to compare maps that have a huge time difference between them, I would make a chart for best and worst maps per time, not one huge list. For example XN C was one of the best maps for its time, while today it would be a bad map, the same can be told on a few other maps. Its nice and all you want people to discuss maps, but for a discussion the OP is rather poor, you mostly gave us a list and explained why you chose the maps. I wouldn't mind this thread as a blog, but other than that this is just silly. EDIT: after reading the comments you can easily see why you can't define a good map, everyone has a different favorite and good / bad map list. | ||
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
In my opinion, your top 4 is the right without a doubt, but I'm quite surprised by you putting Crossfire in top 5. This map is just meh. Antiga does not deserved to be in a "worst map" list. | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:34 bGr.MetHiX wrote: shakuras,metalopolis,crossfire best wol maps... omg These were all maps that introduced brand new concepts when they first came out. They were all extremely important in terms of the history of SC2 map making. By today's standards it is easy to point out their flaws, but I do think its fair to say that without those maps the scene would look different than it does today. On March 09 2013 08:16 forsooth wrote: Putting Antiga on the worst list while putting Daybreak on the best is absurd. Antiga is definitely one of the worst maps, especially when you consider that the first version had gold bases and a warp-inable natural. That map should have been removed a long time ago. Daybreak is now a tournament staple. Nice writeup, Barrin. I'm interpreting the lists to have taken into account the time that they were released as part of the judgement criteria ? | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
Seriously one of the worst maps past 3.5 bases in a non mirror :d | ||
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Vertitto
Poland750 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
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n0ise
3452 Posts
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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
You even praise scrap station in the extreme list :s | ||
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BlueEagle
United Kingdom75 Posts
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
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Zinnwaldite
Norway1567 Posts
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roronoe
Canada1527 Posts
Theres a lot of good thoughts in there and the list is pretty good overall. Don't be too close-minded to what an ideal map is in your mind. Maps need to bring out interesting elements or different gameplay (think Triathalon in BW) | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Sadist
United States7225 Posts
IMO Jungle basin #1 worst all time. OMFG getting 4 gated when trying to FE as terran was fucking brutal. Proxy DT through backdoor . Then center being ROFL narrow that you cant even engage a toss. + back when it was played there was still amulet -_- | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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NotRandoMNamE
80 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
WTF!? The two of us have a VERY big difference of opinion OP. When you put Antiga Shipyard in the worst maps category and Crossfire in the top 5. | ||
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
Maps in WoL were pretty disappointing, overall though. I expect the worst maps being made (by not blizzard) in HotS pools will be better than the top WoL maps. | ||
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Atrox
United States30 Posts
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Jepsyn
Canada364 Posts
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jakethesnake
Canada4948 Posts
Two others that I thought of for the 'extreme' category would be Calm Before the Storm, and Testbug - both maps without a real comparison. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
- I don't think Antiga deserves to be on the worst, even though I dislike it. Desert Oasis, Steppes, or Kulas could all take its place imo. - I think Whirlwind should be on the extremes just for how open it is. - Why in the world is crossfire on the list of bests, lol? Ohana imo shouldn't be an honorable mention either, it's not the worst map ever, but I can recall very few good games I've played or watched. It's just plain dull aside from aesthetics. - What about the kespa maps? Imo, Arkanoid is the most extreme map by like a mile, lol. I've never seen anything like it. It's like Dustin Browser's wet dream. I think Bitfrost and Planet S should be on that list too. Also, where's Calm Before the Storm? My picks for best: 5) Entombed Valley (without horizontal spawns) 4) Tal'darim Altar 3) Whirlwind 2) Daybreak 1) Cloud Kingdom Honorable: Shakuras Plateau | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
I can't really comment because I didn't know too much about a lot of the maps until recently, but Incineration Zone was SO bad, yeah. Agreed so much, that map was just....what. Same with Nerazim Crypt | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:30 TheAmazombie wrote: I like the inclusion of Crossfire on the best. People gave it a lot of shit for being imba, but when it was in the GSL, it always produced some of the best games we had ever seen, with almost any matchup. Really? That's the main reason I dislike it. Aside from Nestea vs sC and and TvT games I don't really remember Crossfire much at all for quality games. | ||
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Riquiz
Netherlands402 Posts
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
The tank/ mass ghost turtle style in TvZ that ultimately got Snipe nerfed into oblivion would not work very well on maps like Whirlwind. 5 rax reaper would be kind of weak on a map like Tal'Darim Altar. The current meta of CC first vs 3 hatch before gas would be kind of hard to pull off on Testbug. EDIT: Am I the only one who liked Bel'Shir Beach? | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:44 TheFish7 wrote: Antiga is definitely one of the worst maps, especially when you consider that the first version had gold bases and a warp-inable natural. That map should have been removed a long time ago. Daybreak is now a tournament staple. Nice writeup, Barrin. I'm interpreting the lists to have taken into account the time that they were released as part of the judgement criteria ? Once the kinks were worked out, Antiga ended up being one of the more balanced maps we've had in WoL. It had a tendency to follow a particular formula in each matchup, but it also ended up being one of only a few maps that didn't put any race at a big disadvantage. Contrast that with Daybreak, which has been lucky to hit 40% TvZ ever since the queen patch last year. It's a pretty badly imbalanced map. | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:19 blade55555 wrote: Hm definitely disagree with some of yours (cloud kingdom being the best when imo that is an awful map ).The awful list of maps though was pretty spot on oh man looking at those maps almost reminded me of my nightmares :D Can't understand anyone who says Cloud Kingdom is an awful map. How would you even begin to justify that? | ||
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MountainGoat
United States507 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
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RegardlessAyo
Germany1 Post
Shakuras, Daybreak and Metalopolis Also surprised about putting Metalopolis in Best but not in WORST (ZvP imba, TvP imba, ZvT imba) and hey, where's best map Whirlwind ? Or we're talking about ladder? =( Best map of whole WoL is Whirlwind (with blocked ramp on 3rd version), also Terminus was not bad map (old times) | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
If you concider Shakuras Plateau as one of the best maps you could get, you know there's a problem somewhere. | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Yes the fourth is hard to take and often times it will not get to that point. But it's an interesting map with many possibilites from "taking the middle" to drops and expanding around the edges. Seriously, this map makes for very interesting games. Else I agree with the overall flow  | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
desert oasis..and why is steppes of war not in the worst map list...map was awful arkanoid should be the most extreme map | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:42 forsooth wrote: Once the kinks were worked out, Antiga ended up being one of the more balanced maps we've had in WoL. It had a tendency to follow a particular formula in each matchup, but it also ended up being one of only a few maps that didn't put any race at a big disadvantage. Contrast that with Daybreak, which has been lucky to hit 40% TvZ ever since the queen patch last year. It's a pretty badly imbalanced map. Daybreak came out before the queen buff, that's not really fair. Also Antiga Shipyard started out T favored vs Z, the queen buff brought it back to balanced. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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TheHansBecker
United States117 Posts
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FaZ-
United States187 Posts
- 3 players - Close (by air) locations - Bases that do more than make a ring around the fucking map. | ||
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stew_
Canada239 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:46 Die4Ever wrote: great thread, I agree we need more maps like those extreme maps, and maybe even try to bring some of them back I really, really, reaally want Metropolis to get a second chance in HotS. There was a map that had the tragic fate of providing numerous great games, but having a huge balance issue in TvZ. There a few if any maps we've seen thus far that can consistently push a match into the extreme lategame as consistently as Metropolis. We're not really getting enough games on it at IEM either, which is a shame as it could be the last time we see it in a tournament for HotS. I think it at least deserves to come back to the ladder, considering Blizzard pulled it out mid-season before to fix it and never put it back in. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Mudkipnick
Korea (South)241 Posts
Nice list bro I enjoyed reading it, but I never appreciated the praise Cloud Kingdom got, just not my map. xD | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:42 forsooth wrote: Once the kinks were worked out, Antiga ended up being one of the more balanced maps we've had in WoL. It had a tendency to follow a particular formula in each matchup, but it also ended up being one of only a few maps that didn't put any race at a big disadvantage. Contrast that with Daybreak, which has been lucky to hit 40% TvZ ever since the queen patch last year. It's a pretty badly imbalanced map. I totally agree with you dude, a map with less than 40% winrate shouldn't be concidered as one of the best map of WoL... | ||
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-JoKeR-
Canada387 Posts
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zephiK
United States372 Posts
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
Or Kulas Ravine? Or Scrap Station? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Daybreak is like Matchpoint, but matchpoint if it was super narrow and all the bases were right on top of each other. Match Point was an amazing map to play on, air wasn't too good as there wasn't too much dead space and also all the highground made defending areas much easier. Due to the archetecture of the map it didn't really head towards base trades very often either. Now compare this to daybreak, where although there isn't too much deadspace, the way the middle is designed ground armies cannot get around the map quick enough to intercept/go do damage against a slow army and if you have a slow army you're basically forced into a base trade as you'll never get back in time. Due to the narrowness it's almost impossible (in WoL) to punish slow moving armies unless they try and attack you. Ohana also suffers from narrow syndrome and Cloud Kingdom is just terrible for having bases right next to each other.One of the best maps of WoL I'd actually say is Bifrost. Infact, if I were picking a best 5 maps of WoL (in no order), it'd be... Antiga Shipyard (no easy fourth, leads to a game having a midgame) Bifrost (great for army movement/positioning, quite nice for air play) Arkanoid (One of the most interesting maps on the pool and the Proleague games on it have all been really interesting, no super quick fourth bases) Scrap Station (Odd choice, but I always felt if it had a smaller main ramp it might even still be in the pool now, really nice design) Crossfire (Had the highground been a bit further back from the main, once again I think this'd still be in the pool. No super quick Third, but it was possible due to the distance of it and it led to some really interesting mech games ^^) | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2574 Posts
I hope to see Kespa lead the way in map making in HOTS. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
I think Dual sight was pretty good except vZ and that Abyssal city is really horrible though. | ||
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:19 Jepsyn wrote: Shakurus was an awful map... I thought everyone HATED it You have to remember when it was new everyone loved it (like daybreak). But both those maps were in the map pool for so long that people got sick of them . | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
steppes br0. #1 f0 sh0 | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:06 Kyhol wrote: Looking at his picks for the best maps is evidence how awful the WOL map pool is. I hope to see Kespa lead the way in map making in HOTS. The issue I have with the map pool is where Kespa jumped in so late (and although they started innovating, it was too late for Wol (please be good in HoTS! :D)) we've never really had any decent experimentation. Every map that's come out in the past year or two has pretty much followed the exact same design ethos and maps that actually changed that up never got picked up by tournaments in fear that pros wouldn't play on them. Icarus is a good example of this. It's a genuinly awesome map to play on, but rather than actually trying to explore the map, pros (especially zergs, when there's pretty much nothing wrong with that map for z) have a tendancy to just 1-2 base all in every game on it. BW (yes I realise it was around for a good 8-10 years in the competitive scene) had some really great maps which were diverse and offered various different ways to play. Outsider for example is probably one of the best maps I've ever had the experience of playing on. Even Heartbreak Ridge (although not changing much) was a lovely map to play on. Sure you had your Fighting Spirits and your Destinations which stayed around in the pool for ages, but even then they were both very different and required very different playstyles to play them (compare this to Ohana and Daybreak where most games in WoL play out the same on them). Maps in SC2 seemed to have been designed (tournament maps that is) to have a "one size fits all" kind of thing where one build will work on it, no matter what the map is. Where's all the three/4 player maps? It's been map pools full of 2 player maps for ages at this point. | ||
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
I would kick daybreak to kingdom come, however balanced and archtype-ish it has become: Games played on it involve no creative tactics, because the map allows for none. It has successfully done nothing "bad", but it hasn't added anything "good" to the game either... I feel the middle area should be reworked to allow for army positioning, that is not completely dictated. | ||
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bananaman533
86 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Bashion
Cook Islands2612 Posts
The only thing that map was good for was to deliver Sc vs Nestea epic game. besides that, it was a terrible, terrible map for Protoss. Mutas were too strong and was a 111 terran free win. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
It sucks that 3-player map played almost no role in WoL except for MMA's CC and a few GSL maps Oh and Bel'Shir Beach has no love? | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
Though this is a pretty nostalgic list for me, nice writeup. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I abhor maps with 3 easy bases by default, like fast 3 bases is the most natural thing to do, no pun intended. Surprised you placed Crossfire in the top maps. The map was very bad for Protoss, as Dual Sight was, but it did bring us dat sC vs Nestea series. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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Zektgn
United States71 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:29 Arceus wrote: Oh and Bel'Shir Beach has no love? Winter or Regular? I personally like both. | ||
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
and yes, CK is the best WoL map. Superouman is the man! | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:25 thezanursic wrote: Only one style of map works in WOL I'd say maps aren't nearly as important as they were in bw. There were so many crazy maps in bw that worked or at least kind of worked (Bio TvT on 815 hell yeah!). I really disagree with your point about only one style of map works in WoL. Arkanoid has shown near the end that a completely different style can actually work and be entertaining to play/watch, but until recently nobody has really bothered experementing too much (in the tournaments that is). | ||
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ColtraneL
France248 Posts
I mean, Belshir beach/winter, Testbug, Entombed Valley, Xel'Naga Fortress or Crevasse were all maps that we've seen a lot, all of those one with pretty unique features. The one I used to love that isn't mentioned at all is still Terminus. Maybe it wasn't perfectly balanced, and it had a thousand versions, but it was actually pretty great to watch (I remember particularly Mvp games on this map that were insane, and I will never forget Thorzain first three cc against Fruitdealer during TSL3). Anyway, I think that more than a subjective post about the map people loved, we should have made a description of all the maps that defined WOL, from Shattered Temple insanely favored terran map to Crossfire Zerg heaven. Despite everything we can criticize on Xel'Naga Caverns, Tal'Darim Altar, Metalopolis or Shakuras Plateau, a lot of my favorite games were played on those maps. | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
I like the thread. I think it's important as we move forward with SC2 (esp. with the stagnancy of the map pools) that people realize that maps affect the game so, so much, and need to be paid more attention. Even if they have a slightly smaller effect than they did in BW, I still think it's pretty huge. Play 10 games on Xel'Naga Caverns, then play 10 on something newer and turtley like Akilon Flats. You're not playing the same game anymore. @ the rest of the list, I think a few of the proleague maps should definitely be mentioned. You can't really use the argument that they came too late in the lifespan of WOL, since Icarus is included. Having a "most extreme" list without Arkanoid or Bifrost seems a little wrong to me. I would kind of like to see a "top 10 influential maps" list added to the OP. Influence on Starcraft 2's metagame, on how maps are made, etc. regardless of if the map is good or balanced. You sort of touched on that in Daybreak's description, but an actual full list of it would be cool. Just an example - some of the huge maps (you could say Atlantis Spaceship, or you could take your pick really) taught us that we do need a limit to how big the maps get, or Terran will just fall flat on its face. Crossfire taught us that how we think a map will play doesn't always translate to reality. Everyone thought it would be PvZ favored and it was the exact opposite. Etc. etc. etc. | ||
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
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darkrage14
Canada173 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:16 mynameisgreat11 wrote: When did OP start playing, 2011?!?!?! steppes br0. #1 f0 sh0 Earlier than you apparently, considering how he remembers how ridiculous Incineration Zone was. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
Also, Steppes of War, Desert Oasis and Scrap Station should be on worst maps list, instead of extreme ones. And Antiga Shipyard should not be on worst maps list. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On March 09 2013 11:00 garlicface wrote: What does it mean if I hate all the maps in SC2? I in fact hate every map that are clones of DualSite/Daybreak | ||
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
Also where is kulas ravine? | ||
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Bwaaaa
Australia969 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:16 blade55555 wrote: You have to remember when it was new everyone loved it (like daybreak). But both those maps were in the map pool for so long that people got sick of them .I loved shakuras. Easy FFE, third and only one army path means my Protoss mind could go on cruise control. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:53 Die4Ever wrote: Daybreak came out before the queen buff, that's not really fair. Also Antiga Shipyard started out T favored vs Z, the queen buff brought it back to balanced. And yet, cross only/no gold base version of Antiga that was played the longest was 50/50 TvZ up until the queen patch. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:53 Die4Ever wrote: Daybreak came out before the queen buff, that's not really fair. Um, not sure you thought that one all the way through. If Daybreak had come out after the queen buff instead of before, then the TvZ winrate on it would be even lower lol | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
However, half of the maps in the "Worst" 10 are actually ok (8,9 & 10) and you've for some unfathomable reason got Crossfire in the top 5 when it's one of the worst SC2 maps ever? You've also left out Dual Sight from the worst maps list and #1 isn't Delta Quadrant, the map WIDELY acknowledged as the worst map ever (only Steppes of Starting in the Same Main comes close and at least that map could be fun). So, overall a terrible post with some of the worst selections I could possible imagine (Antiga in the worst? WTF, that map has some amazing games on it and is fun to play, except PvT), but at least you got the top two correct (although 2 out of 25 is a pretty bad record). Well, at least I can see the argument for Metalopolis (an AWFUL map where the outcome of the game is dependent entirely on the spawns) which was used as a "Best of the Worst" selection for a while and Shakuras which was good for it's time (but still fairly bad overall). | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
they are probably one of the worse maps imo | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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sevia
United States954 Posts
Planet S deserves a mention. Even if its relative newness makes it hard to judge, so far it has proven to be a top-tier map. Ohana and Antiga, while frustrating to play on, produced consistently entertaining games at a high level. Not putting Arkanoid on the list of 'extreme' maps is a bit of an oversight. | ||
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PopcornColonel
United States769 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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Redrot
United States446 Posts
Also, I don't like Shakuras Plateau. However that's just my personal opinion, and it is mainly because of the center choke, although it was fun with the destructible rocks during cross-spawn games. I enjoyed metropolis too, and have seen so many great games come from it. I would have appreciated it as an honorable mention, at least. Oh well, all opinion. Edit: What about Entombed valley? I think it also deserves a mention. | ||
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EZSkull
United States230 Posts
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
I remember hearing someone say that on Cloud Kingdom the bases by the towers were meant to the "natural thirds" but everyone just always took the one closest to the main. ... it always made me like the map more for some reason and I dont even know if it is true O_o; | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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tjtombo
United States295 Posts
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On March 09 2013 12:28 tjtombo wrote: no ohana? Honorable mention for best maps | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
Now, I'm not saying that maps like Daybreak and Cloud are interesting...but they are considered the standard of present day WoL maps. I hope the trend of moving away from the stereotypical cloud clone continues. Maps like Icarus need to take precedence. A highly aggressive meta is the future. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Really? That's the main reason I dislike it. Aside from Nestea vs sC and and TvT games I don't really remember Crossfire much at all for quality games. I don't remember for certain all of the games, but I do recall a short, badass game with Zenio vs. a terran, where he snuck a hidden expo early, then was rammed down at his front, everything got destroyed, then was able to use what little left he had for a badass baneling bust at terran's front. I also remember a long ass game, can't remember who was playing, but it was a TvZ, force late late game, almost all minerals mined out, just exciting from start to finish. I think the reason that I like it so much was that it forced different play like that, not the same standard stuff every game. I liked the forced creativity that the map created. It created situations which we don't see too much where the decision on where and when to take your third was absolutely crucial. XC was another map in the early days where that decision is what made it so interesting. I will say that the weakest matchup to watch on it was PvZ, but even that yielded some results. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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wangstra
922 Posts
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
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Meadowlark
United States349 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On March 09 2013 12:48 wangstra wrote: Can a map that was terrible at the start of the WoL work at the end of WoL due to balance changes? In that sense are there really bad maps or bad design? Take old Antiga shipyard and its random starting positions. It would be overall suck regardless. The problem is that if you and your opponent spawned close position the path between your natural second and your opponent main base was actually shorter compared to yours, given that you you ignored the terrain. This lead to pretty funny shit like Terran deploying their tanks in their own main and still being able to hit your second natural or the facts that drop play from your opponent would reach your second natural faster than you if your units started out in your main. They changed it though so it's only cross positions now and is a pretty decent map thanks to that. It was utter garbage before. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
Metalopolis and Shakuras get a lot of hate now, but they were staples of the scene for a very long time, and provided some pretty interesting games. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
Antiga really shouldn't be on worst maps, there have been so many far worse maps. It stuck around as long as it did for a reason. | ||
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wangstra
922 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:00 Integra wrote: Take old Antiga shipyard and its random starting positions. It would be overall suck regardless. The problem is that if you and your opponent spawned close position the path between your natural second and your opponent main base was actually shorter compared to yours, given that you you ignored the terrain. This lead to pretty funny shit like Terran deploying their tanks in their own main and still being able to hit your second natural or the facts that drop play from your opponent would reach your second natural faster than you if your units started out in your main. They changed it though so it's only cross positions now and is a pretty decent map thanks to that. It was utter garbage before. Good point, I was just about to edit my OP. There are clearly bad maps period. I guess I'm wondering out loud if bad maps had been weeded out faster, I wonder which balance changes might not have come up? | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:09 Scribble wrote: How did Crossfire end up as one of the best while Kulas was not one of the worst. I also figured Delta Quadrant would be higher on the worst maps list. I am more amazed that the worst list did not include that really horrible Ice one that was played for awhile...Crevasse I think... | ||
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hootsushi
Germany3468 Posts
Daybreak and Metalopolis are definitely for me the Wings of Liberty defining maps. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:13 TheAmazombie wrote: I am more amazed that the worst list did not include that really horrible Ice one that was played for awhile...Crevasse I think... Crevasse was really boring, but not terrible in any outstanding fashion. | ||
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dinosrwar
1290 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
 overall not bad of a list though | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:05 Barrin wrote: With some consideration given to metagame @ map's release. Why does nobody seem to understand this bit? When crossfire was release it was pretty damn revolutionary. Although perhaps it is better placed on this list instead. On March 09 2013 11:04 Fatam wrote:I would kind of like to see a "top 10 influential maps" list added to the OP. | ||
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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incoherent
United States54 Posts
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
On March 09 2013 12:40 Azelja wrote: A zerg icon... hmm... That certainly explains some of the picks. Yup, I was going to comment to the same effect. As a protoss player... and I don't speak for everyone.. I hated more than half of the OP's top picks. I could not stand Ohana, Shakuras, Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom. I actually have the last three veto'd, Ohana would have been if I had a 4th veto. It stayed on my pool because I hated it the least, not because I liked it. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Honestly it's a fairly standard map, other than the fact that it's 3p. | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On March 09 2013 14:11 Fatam wrote: How is Testbug "extreme"? Several people have suggested this. Honestly it's a fairly standard map, other than the fact that it's 3p. It's pretty standard in shape, but I guess the rocks at the towers in addition to it being a 3p map makes it pretty unique. Fun to play on though | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:53 incoherent wrote: Testbug should be on the "most extreme" list somewhere, even if most people only remember it for That Game between Idra and MMA. bahahaha it's insanely funny to me that despite the thousands of games i've watched i instantly knew what you were talking about. the maps have come a looong way from beta and launch but i definitely don't think it's perfect. closest to perfect as was listed in the OP seem to me to be cloud kingdom and daybreak, but i don't think this game can continue to go forward on the backs of two solid maps. the mapmakers really need to continue to stay involved, and the community and tournaments in particular really need to continue to support them. i don't think we can count on the ladder map pool to do this for us. i mean props to blizzard for recognizing the cream of the crop and putting them in the ladder pool but blizzard's maps themselves have generally been at best the 'least worst'. part of that is hindsight of course, metalopolis and xel'naga caverns seemed good at the time. one thing i'm really keen on is for tournament map-makers to start experimenting with watchtower-less maps. there's a whole unexplored dimension of the game there when the races have to depend entirely on their respective scouting/map awareness tools. something that comes to mind is the oracle's 'parasite' ability (i forget what it's called, not the detection but the other thing that gives vision of a clump of units). i'm not saying watchtowers are all bad, but up till now we've been just taking them for granted as a constant factor in the game, it's like building workers or something, you just do it as much as you can get away with in every single game. there's room for maps that have watchtowers of course, but i want to see them become more of a specialized terrain feature i guess. it seems like not having that insane vision coverage would force more movement on the map, and the way HotS has changed the game i think we're poised to take advantage of something like that better than before. also, is anyone else bummed the iccup brood war ports didn't catch on? i remember some pretty crazy games in the beta, on sc2 destination in particular. props for including crossfire in the list, that map generated some insane games. it fell out of favor for a reason but someone should really expand on the concept. | ||
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I would personally give Taldarim a special spot above Incineration Zone. Not because it was a bad map, but what horrors it caused to sc2 balance wise. I think maps are really important for a rts game, to keep it fresh when everything was found it. Maps throw this off and create new mysteries to solve. And from WoL I learned that it is a pretty bad idea to try to balance the game with maps, while developers are still working on it. It creates overreactions and mistakes if both sides aren't careful. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On March 09 2013 10:51 Qikz wrote: I really disagree with your point about only one style of map works in WoL. Arkanoid has shown near the end that a completely different style can actually work and be entertaining to play/watch, but until recently nobody has really bothered experementing too much (in the tournaments that is). WOL= It's a different map. How can I play the same style slightly differently on this map? BW= It's a different map. What kind of style should I tailor for this map? That's the feeling I got after I played/watched several hundred games of both games. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On March 09 2013 12:40 Azelja wrote: A zerg icon... hmm... That certainly explains some of the picks. Yup, I was thinking that as well. Personally, I find Cloud Kingdom to be a very average map, it's ok i guess, but certainly no way #1. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 09 2013 16:57 AxionSteel wrote: Yup, I was thinking that as well. Personally, I find Cloud Kingdom to be a very average map, it's ok i guess, but certainly no way #1. Barrin is a highly respected mapper and has a vast amount of experience when it comes to creating and analyzing maps. tldr; he knows his shit! While you may not agree with his list, I can understand why he has ranked things the way he has purely from a mapping point of view. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On March 09 2013 13:45 lichter wrote: Crossfire is an interesting case, because it made some of the best games and some of the worst games. Yea i feel like it should've gone in the extreme category. It was definitely an entertaining map when you didn't care for either player. ps. Nice thread, was definitely fun reading. Not sure I agree with some of the choices but to be honest I probably wouldn't have much of an opinion until I read this. There should be a category for best maps in terms of looks/feel ^_^ belshir beach would top the list for me, I don't care if it's balanced or not it looks cool and that's what made it fun to play on. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 09 2013 12:05 EZSkull wrote: I saw the Top 10 Worst... didn't see Steppes.... and questioned immediately, that map as Zerg was stupid It wasn't half as bad as people say it was. Sure the rush distance was stupid but that's nothing other maps (close position 4player maps, incineration zone...) didn't have at that time. If it hadn't been for the rush distance it would have been a really good map for it's time. (good base layout, interesting terrain features) | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
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incoherent
United States54 Posts
On March 09 2013 14:11 Fatam wrote: How is Testbug "extreme"? Several people have suggested this. Honestly it's a fairly standard map, other than the fact that it's 3p. Testbug did a bunch of interesting things: rocks on top of the towers, the first appearance I know of of the rocks between the minerals and the expansion spot, and simply being a 3 player map (one of only two to see competitive play, and no one liked Xel'Naga Fortress). The bottom 5 on the OP's list are all reasonably standard-looking maps; they're just on there for other reasons. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
I had some awesome games there.Antiga deserves its place as a worst map, it's like the creator didn't know about the existence of a >3 base game. Daybreak could be a little lower on the top 5, definitely deserves its place though. Also Abyssal Caverns, lol at that third. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On March 09 2013 17:21 Big J wrote: It wasn't half as bad as people say it was. Sure the rush distance was stupid but that's nothing other maps (close position 4player maps, incineration zone...) didn't have at that time. If it hadn't been for the rush distance it would have been a really good map for it's time. (good base layout, interesting terrain features) Close position nezarim crypt, and close position abyssal carvens are extreamly playable. Because of the terrible base layout in steppes of war, the map is unplayable even if the rush distance was 50% higher. Natural siegable from low ground and enemy has to go huge detour of possible constant fire to get to the siege tanks. I know Barrin has made many nonesensical post before, but every other time there has been atleast some point in them he was trying to get across. But this is just sad. 3 of the top 5 best maps are bad? Xel naga cavers in extreme maps? Kohral being in extreme is stupid aswell, but because of the history of the map, i guess biased barrin had to put it in there. | ||
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PandaTank
South Africa255 Posts
Worst maps: Blizzard Best maps: Everything else | ||
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Dragule
France17 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
On March 09 2013 17:53 Dragule wrote: What about Kulas Ravine or Steppes of War, being ones of the worst maps ever ? Everybody is secretly missing those maps. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
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Yosi
Poland49 Posts
btw. i think Delta Quadrant was also great map :D | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On March 09 2013 17:51 PandaTank wrote: I'm pretty sure I could have done a more accurate writeup in 30 seconds... Worst maps: Blizzard Best maps: Everything else That's really an unfair jab at Blizzard considering that they do consistently put out good maps every now and then. Antiga, Shakuras, Metalopolis, Entombed and now Akilon, while they might be flawed in one way or another, they have produced many, many fantastic games over time. The best game of 2012 was played on Antiga for crying out loud, yes it might be old and out dated but give credit where credit is due. I kind of agree with most of the list, I feel however that what Barrin failed to do is give context. Its quite clear that the maps are very good or very bad given the time of their release. Tal'Darim Altar for example, while still the biggest map to have ever graced professional play, wouldn't look too out of place in any of today's map pools, back then it was a freak of nature, it was bigger than any other map by orders of magnitude. Antiga, while it did turn out great in the end, at the time of release it had gold minerals int he center, a horrible feature as well as having all spawns enabled, also not that at the time of release you could still warp in units on ramps. Shakuras, after the kinks where taken out, became one of the most loved and enjoyed maps because it was one of the few where you could macro reasonably well on, and also one of the few maps where it was possible to actually take all the bases and mine them out. Daybreak, at the time of its release was a masterpiece, the architecture allows a toss to take and hold a 3rd reasonably well without making it completely free, it allows harass to take place without making it too easy or hard and, despite being small, it has a relatively long rush distance. Also at the time TvZ on it was still quite balanced. Use your heads people, the list actually does make perfect sense, especially once you remove all the stupid personal bias that most of you hold in regards to some maps. And while the list does seem to mostly include ladder maps, I wish Whirlwind and Akilon would at least get a special mention. Whirlwind has a very interesting architecture, its the only 4 spawn map where all spawns are enabled, and this is possible because the 3rd/4th bases are made in such a way that you can take any of them as your 3rd, thus you can expand away from your opponent if you wish to play safely, or expand towards them if you want to play more aggressive. Ironically the size of the map also helps it a lot because it minimizes one of the main things that makes SC2 boring, games ending too quickly because of one bad engagement. The map is open enough in places to allow several kinds of maneuvers to occur, pinches, flanks, surrounds, but also has enough interesting features to facilitate positional and defensive play. Lastly the map is also very nice for harass oriented play, drops and air play work well enough on the map giving it a very action packed feel. Overall Whirlwind seems to have all the right features to reward the players with the better multi-tasking, tenacity and positional play, a map where the best player wins most often, and after it has given us so many good games I feel it is a real shame it didn't even receive a slight mention. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
Also shakuras is also a bit mehehehehe | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
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Happystreet
550 Posts
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On March 09 2013 18:43 Big-t wrote: I have really no idea how "Crossfire" and "Metalopolis" made it into your top 5 :////////// Also shakuras is also a bit mehehehehe Agreed. Also how the hell is Antiga in the worst list but Steps isn't? Or Crap station or Kulas Ravine for that matter. Who give's a crap about "flow" you're honestly going to tell me that Steps, Kulas, or Scrap don't have worse "flow" than Antiga..wtf Sometimes it honestly feels like you've genuinely forgotten that this isn't BW. Sc2 DOES NOT have to conform to the same rules that BW had to because of the shit AI/path finding. | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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itsjuspeter
United States668 Posts
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
On March 09 2013 17:00 Plexa wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 09 2013 16:57 AxionSteel wrote: Yup, I was thinking that as well. Personally, I find Cloud Kingdom to be a very average map, it's ok i guess, but certainly no way #1. Barrin is a highly respected mapper and has a vast amount of experience when it comes to creating and analyzing maps. tldr; he knows his shit! While you may not agree with his list, I can understand why he has ranked things the way he has purely from a mapping point of view. If he "knows his shit" then why he has Shakuras (btw, there's many Shakurases, early Shakuras was even worse) and Crossfire at "best maps" with absolutely trash PvZ there. Btw, you can add Calm before the Storm to extreme, so as many Kespa maps. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Barrin is more qualified than most here to make such a list. And his list is at least partially based on facts, rather than garbage like "Well I always hated playing TvP on Cloud Kingdom, therefore it's an average map and shouldn't be #1". | ||
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spalding
95 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:19 Fatam wrote: List is pretty solid to be honest. Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. you mean using facts like TvZ: 388-592 (39.6%) on daybreak? | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 09 2013 20:55 gylka wrote: If he "knows his shit" then why he has Shakuras (btw, there's many Shakurases, early Shakuras was even worse) and Crossfire at "best maps" with absolutely trash PvZ there. Btw, you can add Calm before the Storm to extreme, so as many Kespa maps. Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Actualy winrate is somewhat anecdotal evidence too if you think a bit. For example there's maps where toss NO WAY cant take a 3rd vs zerg and does 2base immo all-in every single game and has like a bit below 50% winrate cause this all-in still strong but still that map is terrible because it gives only 1 strategy for toss. (Abyssal City is an example) Btw, on winrates Antiga Shipyard is one of the best maps (if not the best) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/500 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/500 In both korean and international all matchups are 50%. But it's still terrible map. Crossfire has ZvP >60% winrate and its a terrible map. Where's Daybreak is 50% in all matchups except TvZ <40%. And Daybreak is realy good map (it's just zerg is imba, lol). Actualy its a bad game design that any matchup vs a Zerg is so map dependant (especialy PvZ), where's TvP is not that hugely map dependant. On March 09 2013 21:25 Plexa wrote: Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. Oh I didnt saw that was written below @The "BEST" WoL Maps@ with small letters "With some consideration given to metagame @ map's release." Well, that could be about last version of Shakuras but Crossfire was always terrible, many players said that even early when started playing that map and even Tastosis somewhat hinted at it in their casts. | ||
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Graphix
United States208 Posts
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
And the map should be called good because it gives each race ability to play different strategy. On Daybreak you can play 2-base allin, you can 3 base, you can 4 base, different openings, etc. Where's some maps are bad because they force player to play only 1-2 strategies. | ||
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Utopi
Denmark176 Posts
some fun games on it | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
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Poopi
France12797 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:25 Plexa wrote: Because Shakuras, in its time, was an amazing map which laid the foundations for a ton of great maps that followed. Yes the map stayed in the map pool way longer than it should have, but in it's prime it was a top 2 map along with Metal. It's important to keep the maps in their proper contexts. Yeah but I still don't see how in the world crossfire is a good map. I have watched a lot of games on it, played on it against high caliber players, and even antiga with his gold expansions and imbalanced TvT (when it had 4 spots) is still a better map. Shakuras was cool for its time though. | ||
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Spoink
Austria150 Posts
I would like to have Xel Naga slightly changed back even thoug it isnt really balanced. | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
Unique maps take a unique playstyle or at the very least altered style. People often complained of ZvT on the map, but when i saw july play on it, it looked incredibly zerg favoured. Positioning is an under appreciated and under utilized skill set within the game, and naturally a map that is so positionally based will favor only a handful of players, but the games they played on this map or could have played on this map are glorious. Theres a reason only innovation and Ryung seem to be able to play whirlwind TvZ. some slight tweeking for PvZ is all this map needed. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On March 09 2013 21:19 Fatam wrote: List is pretty solid to be honest. Most people here criticizing are going off of personal bias/anecdotal evidence .. rather than using facts like winrate #s, etc. Barrin is more qualified than most here to make such a list. And his list is at least partially based on facts, rather than garbage like "Well I always hated playing TvP on Cloud Kingdom, therefore it's an average map and shouldn't be #1". Yeah because this is TL, and the longer someones avrage post length is, the more qualified he is. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Poopi
France12797 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:40 Bodzilla wrote: if you guys didnt like crossfire it's because you didn't see it played right. Unique maps take a unique playstyle or at the very least altered style. People often complained of ZvT on the map, but when i saw july play on it, it looked incredibly zerg favoured. Positioning is an under appreciated and under utilized skill set within the game, and naturally a map that is so positionally based will favor only a handful of players, but the games they played on this map or could have played on this map are glorious. Theres a reason only innovation and Ryung seem to be able to play whirlwind TvZ. some slight tweeking for PvZ is all this map needed. You do know that crossfire WAS zerg favoured? Tastosis said at first that it was terran favored because of the small chokes and stuff but it was actually the other way around, balance wise. It's one of the worst GSL maps :s. | ||
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SigmaFiE
United States333 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:42 Sea_Food wrote: Yeah because this is TL, and the longer someones avrage post length is, the more qualified he is. Actually, we give high regard to Barrin's posts because they are well thought out and continue to push the map making area. You really want a lesson in maps and what's good and/or bad? Step into our subforum and/or skype channel and watch us rip each other apart. It's a lesson in the wild kingdom of eat or be eaten. On Point: I can respect this list. I think we moved to quickly away from some things Blizzard was trying (and still is) that are worth more inspection. Now if only we can get some games.... cough cough | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:43 Poopi wrote: You do know that crossfire WAS zerg favoured? Tastosis said at first that it was terran favored because of the small chokes and stuff but it was actually the other way around, balance wise. It's one of the worst GSL maps :s. towards the end, but it took leenock and and nestea laying baneling mines EVERYWHERE (at the time a VERY under utilized ability) before we got to a ZvT favoured match-up. Take into account the meta-game problems at the time and the shift that occurred and it's not unreasonable. At the time it was 3 seige tank push's to the zergs nat all day erry day, and zergs started to learn that counter attacks, creep spread and mines where pretty good. When they buffed the min patches for tvz and pvz it was only a matter of time before it would have stabilized again. At the time i dont think any of the truly good positional players such as Ryung ever played TvZ. I think he was still only in GSTL and Byun was banned unless i'm mistaken. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
. | ||
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frozzz
Croatia118 Posts
while antiga was nowhere the best top5 maps or so because it clearly suited agressive terran play (eventho in tvz this wasnt that relevant after all the buffs that were made to zerg and when they started playing greedy style) you definitely cant put it to worst maps ever (especially considering how long it is in ladder & gsl mappool(ok it got removed from gsl last season)) | ||
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Gemini_sc2
Norway69 Posts
I miss some of these old maps | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I won't criticize the actual list, its just one guys opinion. Cut down the "terrible terrible damage" jokes though, its not funny. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:33 Bagi wrote: I find Cloud Kingdom to be extremely overrated, and medivac boosters are already making it extremely imbalanced for HOTS. Good riddance to that map. I won't criticize the actual list, its just one guys opinion. Cut down the "terrible terrible damage" jokes though, its not funny. Not only just medivac drops, but blink all ins on that map as a meching terran are just ridiculous to try and deal with. | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:33 Bagi wrote: I find Cloud Kingdom to be extremely overrated, and medivac boosters are already making it extremely imbalanced for HOTS. Good riddance to that map. I won't criticize the actual list, its just one guys opinion. Cut down the "terrible terrible damage" jokes though, its not funny. Oh, don't bring HotS here, thats a new game and obvoiusly have balance issues on any map at this time. And topic is about WoL maps. Cloud Kingdom is realy a very very good map (still I dont like it as zerg but many zergs like but I like it a lot as terran and toss). In most times it's a macro games in all matchups. And it's an old map. To have this map by that time when it was created - its a blessing. And even now its a good map to play on. I'd very much agree with topic starter that Cloud Kingdom (as an older map) and Daybreak are best maps in WoL. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On March 09 2013 22:42 Sea_Food wrote: Yeah because this is TL, and the longer someones avrage post length is, the more qualified he is. He's qualified because he's a very experienced map maker and analyst, not because he has 4000 posts and just made a really long one. Also your 1600 post count doesn't qualify you to criticize anyone. Get on my level. | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
Overall quite a good read though | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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m0ck
4194 Posts
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NonameAI
127 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:14 Enel wrote: Surprising to see Crossfire in top 5 best maps. I saw one good game on it, out of like 20 games. ZvP was also imbalanced as fuck on it. And with the top 2 maps, i love cloud kingdom, but it was a bit choked up, and a protoss/roach ball would camp the high ground and force a game into the lategame. And zerg kinda had to go infestor/BL since a well positioned toss army would just sit there and shit on the zerg the entire game. That being said, I love the map, but daybreak would be first in my book. Its not really a special map, but not every map has to be innovative. It is a super-solid, standard-gameplay map with lots of possibilities. Daybreak is perfect in that aspect, even if its a bit boring. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:51 gylka wrote: Oh, don't bring HotS here, thats a new game and obvoiusly have balance issues on any map at this time. And topic is about WoL maps. That was just addressing the OPs comment about CK potentially being a good map well into LotV. Its not, its in fact already quite broken. Also, balance issues and maps go hand in hand. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
You put positioning over every other strategic decision in the game and I cannot agree with that. And games on Shakuras and Metalopolis where much more often than on other maps boring up to being unwatchable. EDIT1: Cloud Kingdom though is a pretty good choice for being the best map. It's very fair for all races, allows multiple playstyles and makes for action packed games. EDIT2: I miss Calm before the Storm in your extreme hitlist. Maybe you just forgot it? ^^ | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
-Metalopolis -Crossfire -Shakuras Plateau -Xel'naga Caverns These maps provided constant action and left me with the most SC2 memories. I can't even look at the current map pool in WoL because it just brings back terrible memories of deathballs, infestors, and a single battle deciding the game. | ||
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
- maps became ridiculously oversized - easy to defend thirds - zerg friendly If you take a genuinely analytical view of the situation (you realise that the bulk of aggressive play should be centred around either denying or securing a third) then Metalopolis and Shakuras should really be the model to follow. Both maps had plenty of room for both attacking and defending a third. When forced to cross positions, the attack routes made it hard to stop harassment but easy to defend if you were aware. There were very few obvious choke points but there were positions which if taken allowed for very strategic play. A lot of the balance issues for the past nine months have been sourced from the fact that it was absurdly easy for zerg in particular to take a third. Making a third more difficult to defend would have solved a lot of problems. Instead we got a map that made a taken third base almost completely impregnable to harass with any preparation at all. | ||
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Loooui
Sweden348 Posts
As a protoss and terran player, whenever i get a zerg here i cry, or so it was in WoL atleast. Maybe Daybreak is slightly better for HotS when infestor+broodlord isn´t as deadly. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
), though I don't agree with all your assessments (for example, I'd place Crossfire in worst maps for example, all it did is encourage base trading) and you seem to sport a slight anti-SC2 bias, you give some very nice insights. Thank you very much for the excellent post! | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On March 10 2013 01:58 Evangelist wrote: Most community map makers just go off the desires of the community meaning: - maps became ridiculously oversized - easy to defend thirds - zerg friendly If you take a genuinely analytical view of the situation (you realise that the bulk of aggressive play should be centred around either denying or securing a third) then Metalopolis and Shakuras should really be the model to follow. Both maps had plenty of room for both attacking and defending a third. When forced to cross positions, the attack routes made it hard to stop harassment but easy to defend if you were aware. There were very few obvious choke points but there were positions which if taken allowed for very strategic play. A lot of the balance issues for the past nine months have been sourced from the fact that it was absurdly easy for zerg in particular to take a third. Making a third more difficult to defend would have solved a lot of problems. Instead we got a map that made a taken third base almost completely impregnable to harass with any preparation at all. I agree with your general points about map design, but Shakuras and Meta had glaring problems in various matchups which not only made it difficult to take a third but also pretty much forced some particular races into 2 base all-inning. How many Blink all-ins did we see on Shakuras? How many all-ins did we see on close air Meta? | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:39 Shiori wrote: I agree with your general points about map design, but Shakuras and Meta had glaring problems in various matchups which not only made it difficult to take a third but also pretty much forced some particular races into 2 base all-inning. How many Blink all-ins did we see on Shakuras? How many all-ins did we see on close air Meta? What's your point? At least we saw games other than free 3 base play | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
Races dont have the utility to do early action and transition into mid- and then late-game, it's usualy semi- or full all-ins. That's how the game is designed. It's not the map's fault. Good map gives the ability to go on macro game and bad map forces early all-in with 1-2 strategies.. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
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Shron
United States162 Posts
As much as it's not a highly regarded opinion, maps like Scrap Station, Xel'naga Caverns, Tal'darim Altar, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis bring interesting variety to the game. Like thezanursic put it: On March 09 2013 16:26 thezanursic wrote: WOL= It's a different map. How can I play the same style slightly differently on this map? In order to bring life to the game, we can add new unit and abilities, etch out new strategies and lines of thought for each race, or add new maps which add real decisions to be made. It seems like what the community wants is a map which offers no resistance, and makes their choices easy. Oh, there's my third. Here's the way I'm going to attack his natural. My old strategies work on this new map; good. What I'm not saying is that any of the maps I mentioned are better than a map like Cloud Kingdom. Desert Oasis, for example, is a prototype of its genre. It has imbalances (many), but it marks the foundation of a number of maps which could be influenced by it. Cloud Kingdom is an excellently designed map and has its own flavor. But if I can make an analogy to flavors: Cloud Kingdom and other maps like it are vanilla-flavored, and a map like Desert Oasis would be strawberry flavored. Both can be good! I'd even be willing to say I like vanilla more than strawberry! But variety is important. Building and executing new and intricate strategies is the most fun part of Starcraft. I'd like to hear what others think about this! | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
On March 09 2013 17:00 Plexa wrote: Barrin is a highly respected mapper and has a vast amount of experience when it comes to creating and analyzing maps. tldr; he knows his shit! While you may not agree with his list, I can understand why he has ranked things the way he has purely from a mapping point of view. Sorry Plexa.. but..... just because someone is "respected" and has experience, does not mean they cannot be biased. By his map choices, it is CLEAR that his choices are biased somewhat. He's got decent choices, but the choices are not reflective of all races. I would have loved to have seen map veto's from tournaments, race matching, etc. That data we will never be able to get our hands on. That would speak volumes. | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On March 10 2013 05:26 Grimmyman123 wrote: Sorry Plexa.. but..... just because someone is "respected" and has experience, does not mean they cannot be biased. By his map choices, it is CLEAR that his choices are biased somewhat. He's got decent choices, but the choices are not reflective of all races. I would have loved to have seen map veto's from tournaments, race matching, etc. That data we will never be able to get our hands on. That would speak volumes. His choices don't seem biased to me at all... If you see it as zerg-favored somehow I think you're the biased one. I guess metal and Crossfire ended up kinda Z favored but not at all times. Metal was at one point the most solid map in the pool, and for Crossfire the racial balance changed a lot through the life of the map as the metagame shifted. And the reason it was hard PvZ was because the map makers fixed the PvZ imbalance by making maps with easy thirds, instead of waiting for Blizzard to fix it, so the map became imbalanced. The other ones in the top five weren't really Z favored at all aside from the general Z favor in recent time in WoL. He didn't even but Steppes in the worst maps list. | ||
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pookums
151 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
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Isualin
Germany1903 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:12 Crushgroove wrote: Where is steppes of war? Really? How is that not on this list? It's 2nd in the extreme category. | ||
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SNSDBWooger
France16 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8502 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
I have seen shit played on that map that doesn't exist anywhere else. Maps can also be very powerful tools for balancing. I have no idea why blizz still uses WoL maps for HOTS when things have changed | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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smogg
Bulgaria167 Posts
1. DayBreak 2. Akilon Flats 3. Tal'Darim Altar 4. Metropolis Worst: 0. Scrap Station - ultimate fail 1. KeSPA Neo Arkanoid 2. Dual Sight 3. Bel'shir Beach 4. Cloud Kingdom - not bad, just boring | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
and no it wasn't fun | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8502 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:44 Falling wrote: Be funny to have an amateur retro tournament. Desert Oasis and the old reapers. Ugh. Or Kulas Ravine with T floating his OC to be basically unscoutable and do crazy shit... | ||
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Akio00
United States98 Posts
I'm sure it wasn't easy for Barrin to take the time to do this. Thank you! | ||
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Tuthur
France985 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:47 TheKefka wrote: I'm willing to argue that kulas ravine was a far worse map than steppes of war. and no it wasn't fun Oh yes, reapers on that map was tons of fun. At least when you were Terran. Oh the rage... | ||
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Glueburn
United States496 Posts
Can't just throw away a map that was highly regarded to be a favorite for a years time. | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On March 10 2013 08:49 CampinSam wrote: Where is xelnaga caverns? Can't just throw away a map that was highly regarded to be a favorite for a years time. It's in the "extreme" list, I believe. | ||
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Glueburn
United States496 Posts
Oh you're right... but there's nothing extreme about it >.< | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:31 CampinSam wrote: Oh you're right... but there's nothing extreme about it >.< Compared to the current metagame of super close, super easy to defend maps it's pretty extreme :p | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:34 Qikz wrote: Compared to the current metagame of super close, super easy to defend maps it's pretty extreme :p Keeping lings and hellions out of my natural was such a pain in the ass, but in general I had a lot of fun on that map. | ||
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Foudzing
France181 Posts
As a viewer I like the maps where you can actually have early or late game action such as Tal d'Arim, Metalopolis, Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom. I think maps should not be more macro than Daybreak (Whirlwind, Metropolis and stuff are really too much macro). Akilon Flats could have a great run, wait and see. I don't know why there is not a specific map pool for each machup, because their is a lot of maps that are awful only in a specific machup (and most of the time only because of a specific strategy). And I don't know why anyone speaks of abyssal city, but it's by far the most beautifull map of sc2. | ||
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k3n705
Canada134 Posts
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
An otherwise droll and tasteless analysis of mapmaking. 6 out of 10 User was warned for this post | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
I think Cloud Kingdom as rank1 is not so great, it's gameplay turns into a turtle fest a bit too quickly, extra air space behind naturals could fix that though (so you could sneak drops into the main on that side). The distance between the ramp to the third and the ramp to the nat is too small from an attacker's perspective, encourages lots of 3 base turtling. Daybreak definitely has more dynamic gameplay, I don't mind playing a dozen games in a row on that map, whereas I get frustrated playing more than a few in a row on cloud kingdom. Ohana probably deserves a higher spot, it's the best small map out there, by miles, and the lategame allows you to box your opponent in pretty nicely, with enough paths for counter attacks to keep things interesting. As far as worst maps goes, Antiga definitely does not belong on that list, scrap station definitely does. | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
I don't know what they were thinking putting out a map as crazy as Kulas Ravine at release. But it was fun! OP is a terran. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:44 Falling wrote: Be funny to have an amateur retro tournament. Desert Oasis and the old reapers. Ugh. IPL did a Ye Old Maps tournament a while back. I think it would be fun to have another tournament in HotS, and later in LotV. It should be interesting to see WoL beta maps being played in the distant future with LotV balance. | ||
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
On March 10 2013 03:28 Shron wrote: Sometimes I feel like Starcraft II has lost its luster for me, and this thread has led me to believe maps may be the root. As much as it's not a highly regarded opinion, maps like Scrap Station, Xel'naga Caverns, Tal'darim Altar, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis bring interesting variety to the game. Like thezanursic put it: In order to bring life to the game, we can add new unit and abilities, etch out new strategies and lines of thought for each race, or add new maps which add real decisions to be made. It seems like what the community wants is a map which offers no resistance, and makes their choices easy. Oh, there's my third. Here's the way I'm going to attack his natural. My old strategies work on this new map; good. What I'm not saying is that any of the maps I mentioned are better than a map like Cloud Kingdom. Desert Oasis, for example, is a prototype of its genre. It has imbalances (many), but it marks the foundation of a number of maps which could be influenced by it. Cloud Kingdom is an excellently designed map and has its own flavor. But if I can make an analogy to flavors: Cloud Kingdom and other maps like it are vanilla-flavored, and a map like Desert Oasis would be strawberry flavored. Both can be good! I'd even be willing to say I like vanilla more than strawberry! But variety is important. Building and executing new and intricate strategies is the most fun part of Starcraft. I'd like to hear what others think about this! I agree 100% with you. By far the most fun and exciting games I played were on the maps that are listed here in the extreme section, except maybe metropolis which always created super long boring games. I think sc2 players bitch so much about balance that mapmakers are scared to create anything creative. Most new maps play absolutely the same with different looks. Even if you listen to casters the only mapfeatures that ever get mentioned are rushdistance, distance to 3rd, watchtowers and arcs in army engangements due to chokepoints. The early crazy maps felt like rally tracks. A Citroen would always have an advantage on a tarmac track, a Ford on a gravel rally, maybe sometimes you get unlucky and hit a random rock and get a puncture. However a good driver could always overcome those hindrances. Drivers had to struggle with the tracks and with the other drivers. Modern maps feel more like Nascar tracks. They are fairer for the drivers and drivers only have to fight against other drivers not the tracks but they also feel a lot more dull to watch and drive on | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
The best list is alright, the extreme isn't all that extreme, but the worst is 10/10. I remember when Blizz went full crazy and replaced half the ladder maps with the likes of Nerazim Crypt, Slag Pits, Searing Crater, etc. A very good read, thanks OP. | ||
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Tayar
United States1439 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
As of the lists themselves, they are pretty spot on. Cloud Kingdom is the best map out there by far I think. As a terran I'd maybe see Daybreak gone, despite it being awesome in TvP (I really, really like it, the possibilities for multipronged are so great) and Ohana being higher up in the ranks. Some comments here have mentioned the issue of default free three bases maps that lead into games that go straight into lategame without much of midgame in between. The extreme list had maps that answered this issue well, for various reasons. In general I feel like we should have less "standard maps" in order to shake up the gameplay. Too easily split maps like Daybreak and Metropolis should not be too dominant, we need maps that force variance. Now every single game begins with FE into fast 3rd (TvP maybe not quite so much) and there is little to no action for the first ten minutes. This is incredibly boring both as a viewer and as a player. Maps that enable really easy to hold three bases, especially for Zergs are the reason why there was no midgame in several matchups for the end of 2012. When 3rd base actually becomes something that is not given as default, or it has some strategic and/or positional map specific implications the map makers have succeeded. For me at least it feels like currently mapmakers and playerbase tend to be very conservative, anything that is sligtly off the standards of Daybreak gets shut down before it is even actually tried properly. I would love to see the community (both players and mapmakers, especially players!) be more open and adaptive towards new ideas and concepts. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
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Eggi
478 Posts
I didnt see that so I didnt read rest of the thread. Antiga is a a god map compared to steppes :edit: looked at best maps, obviously there are tons of disagreements there. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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CuSToM
United States1478 Posts
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
That was truly a zerg's nightmare. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 11 2013 08:36 Holytornados wrote: I still think Desert Oasis would be awesome in today's ladder pool... Yep, me too. I said that same thing to someone like a week ago... Your natural is miiiiiiiiles from your main, but it seemed to hurt all 3 races... I wonder what it would look like on the ladder these days. I mean, as I'm thinking through it, I think it'd be terrible. But, then again, I enjoyed Steppes of War, so why not. | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
On March 11 2013 07:58 vojnik wrote: why don't you make a poll and see what is the general opinion here? Because democracy only works if people know are knowledgeable on the content of whatever they're voting on! | ||
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
Anyways fun list =) | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
because i hope so ^^ steppes of war was the worst map ever made i mean ... god damn it was freelose vs every terran ^^ and kulas xDD ps: also crossfire was pretty bad, saying even i agree with alot bad maps, your best maps are totaly crazy, metalopolis was shit from the 1. to the way to late last second and shakuras even i liked it as my favorite map was, when we want to be fair. also totaly broken in alot mu's what i rly think is that in the late days of WOL, desert oasis would be pretty funny ^^ | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Sherlock-Canada
Canada269 Posts
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Shron
United States162 Posts
On March 11 2013 05:07 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: I agree 100% with you. By far the most fun and exciting games I played were on the maps that are listed here in the extreme section, except maybe metropolis which always created super long boring games. I think sc2 players bitch so much about balance that mapmakers are scared to create anything creative. Most new maps play absolutely the same with different looks. Even if you listen to casters the only mapfeatures that ever get mentioned are rushdistance, distance to 3rd, watchtowers and arcs in army engangements due to chokepoints. The early crazy maps felt like rally tracks. A Citroen would always have an advantage on a tarmac track, a Ford on a gravel rally, maybe sometimes you get unlucky and hit a random rock and get a puncture. However a good driver could always overcome those hindrances. Drivers had to struggle with the tracks and with the other drivers. Modern maps feel more like Nascar tracks. They are fairer for the drivers and drivers only have to fight against other drivers not the tracks but they also feel a lot more dull to watch and drive on Right. I think the racing analogy is a good one. But I'm not even saying the maps now are bad, or too dull. They have their own strategic flavor. It's as if we are only driving rally on tarmac, when we should throw dirt, gravel, hell -- even snow, into the mix. Of course, not at the cost of balance. We don't want Terran to dominate on maps like Kulas Ravine just like we don't want Subaru to dominate snow rallies. A problem that arises is that Terran fundamentally seems to have more options to abuse interesting maps features than the other races -- at least at face value. But is it really the case? Cliffs, for example, directly favor Terran. Reapers, tanks, and medivacs can all use cliffs advantageously in obvious ways. Protoss has blink stalkers, and Zerg have mutalisks and overlords which both benefit from cliffs, but neither can match Terran's gains. Zerg has the advantage in the open, and benefits the most from an open natural, like on Xel'naga. Terran has non-committal options of taking advantage of that as well, with hellions, as does Protoss early game with stalkers. But is an open natural balanced, or does one side have too much of an advantage and ability to abuse? Chokes can be used defensively by all races, but Protoss seems to have the most direct benefit due to forcefields, AOE, and (if the choke is by the natural) the ability to forge fast expand. Burrowed banelings, and now swarm hosts can take advantage of chokes. Terran has hellions, and now widow mines which can be used effectively in chokes due to their AOE, and also has the ability to block chokes with supply depots. Not to mentions line of sight blockers, empty air space, the obvious rush distances, air distances, ease of getting a third base, etc. I think if we take everything into consideration it's completely in the realm of possibility to make aggressive, fun, and yet balanced maps. Let me know if you disagree! I might be too hopeful -- but I suspect not. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On March 09 2013 08:14 Enel wrote: Surprising to see Crossfire in top 5 best maps. I saw one good game on it, out of like 20 games. ZvP was also imbalanced as fuck on it. this. PvZ is fucking bullshit on that map and TvZ? beside Nestea vs sC, there wasn't any good game imo. Only TvT was ok due to the ability to maneuver around 2 main path. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On March 11 2013 06:58 Tayar wrote: you lost me a bit both when you got into the anti-sc2/bw elitism douchebaggery and when you named shakuras platateu as one of the best maps - that map was terrible and boring and completely bland. otherwise a good article. TvZ was pretty good on that map though, just pretty painful for Terran mech to play. Other than that it's a normal map. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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OxyGenesis
United Kingdom281 Posts
On March 11 2013 09:29 Lobotomist wrote: I think Crossfire wasn't necessarily a good map, but rather there were really good and interesting games that were played on it (mostly TvZs that I can recall) like Nestea vs sC here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zGvYYm4g A perfect example of how a good map can create great positional battles and shows why Crossfire was in the top maps list, thanks for posting. As others have said, these are ranked from a map design perspective by a veteran map maker who really knows his stuff, to those talking about specific balance problems like ohana immortal sentry and crossfire PvZ, these maps were often created long before anyone had any idea about those specific meta game issues and doesn't detract from the design of the map. | ||
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Warpish
834 Posts
- Daybreak - Shakuras Plateau - Antiga Shipyard - Entombed Valley - Crevasse As many others in these thread, I also think that Desert Oasis was a very special map and I wish there was a way to bring back a renewed version of the map pool. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 11 2013 07:58 vojnik wrote: why don't you make a poll and see what is the general opinion here? A poll would be terrible. Skimming through the thread, the vast majority of disagreements are heavily biased in favor of the race they play. Too many people judge best maps based on how overpowered their race and play style is on that map. | ||
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SigmaFiE
United States333 Posts
o Do you think maps (should) "play a role in developing the game which cannot be overestimated"? What have you contributed? Absolutely! Maps can help lead the design process and to balance some (not all) issues. I have contributed to making maps and organizing some of the map makers. o Have you learned anything about SC2 / RTS games (etc) from what mapmakers ended up creating in WoL? Are you inspired? Yes, I have learned quite a bit I think. I faltered towards the end of WoL in my inspiration. I am still looking to re-capture that. o What makes a map bad/good? Can certain feature(s) be guaranteed to make a map bad/good, or should you take an artistic approach by having a cool idea or two and then balancing general (interconnected) principles in the execution said ideas? Maps can be both good and bad. I think the best maps will tend to try and emphasize 1 or 2 specific aspects instead of being a mishmash. It is perfectly acceptable for maps to be favorable to one race in my opinion. Artistic expression is best left through the aesthetics design rather than the layout design. o Are these the worst/most extreme/best WoL maps made so far? If not, which are? What if you could edit any just a little? Subjective is subjective, will not answer right now. o Are the current maps perfect? Are we satisfied with this? How much better can they get? What should mapmakers do next? Hell no, of course not, they can get a LOT better I think, and mapmakers have several options lying before them but most importantly is creating connections with tournament organizers and educating the community w/o all of the racial bias that frequently dilutes the opinion of maps. | ||
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Drium
United States888 Posts
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