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Starcraft 2 Science: Skillcraft Results - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Inimic
Profile Joined March 2013
Canada153 Posts
April 01 2013 23:06 GMT
#101
Thanks for the link, submarine
o29
Profile Joined November 2010
United States220 Posts
April 03 2013 05:47 GMT
#102
Would it be possible to include EAPM as well to see whether it's a more accurate correlate to skill than traditional APM? Obviously using something similar to SC2Gears EAPM rather than the new unreliable ingame measurement. I would imagine it would be a more accurate measurement, but it'd be nice to see that backed up with data.
reo_b
Profile Joined April 2013
Canada1 Post
April 04 2013 03:35 GMT
#103
On March 07 2013 17:45 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
One thing I have always been thinking, is that people often talk about multitasking in starcraft. But actually there is no real multitasking in starcraft, it is not even possible. All actions are in sequences, they do not happen simultaneously. What people think is multitasking, is actually just switching fast between different actions.

In contrary, there is real multitasking in fighter pilot training and actually flying the jet plane, and it is far more difficult than starcrafts "multitasking" which is not even real multitasking. So if you wanna study multitasking, fighter pilots and their training programs are something that should be checked. Even the qualifiers for pilot training programs are very difficult. Flying jets also requires great deal of emergency management skills, which again is far more demanding than playing starcraft. Specially when considered that fighter pilots need to learn to deal with high G-forces and they have to study lots of theory of physics of flying and how the jet itself works, learning to fly jet planes is harder than starcraft.


Well, you've sucked me in, had to register an account.

You keep putting this study down in multiple posts with baseless and extraneous criticisms. Can I ask, what are your qualifications?

Humans are inherently incapable of "high level" multi-tasking. We're similar to a single core processor, rapidly switching between different tasks. Our "sensors" - feel, sight, hearing, etc. - provide "interrupts" (in the computer science sense) that signal our brains' higher-level areas to refocus on a new task. Much like a computer switching tasks, this mental task switching incurs overhead (thus it is more efficient for humans to finish single tasks to completion than it is to hop between several tasks).

Flying a jet is no more "multi-tasking" than Starcraft is. In fact, there is much less task-switching in flying a plane. When you're in an emergency situation piloting a plane, your entire attention is on the single situation at hand. You are flying the plane, based on input from a number of your senses. To add an extra layer of "multi-tasking" to flying a plane, you could add random math problems (on top of an emergency situation) that need to be solved on an interval to prevent the controls from locking out. This would be kind of like attending to worker macro during an intense battle.

Before you ask: Yes, I fly planes. Yes, I play Starcraft.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
April 04 2013 03:37 GMT
#104
lol I love how masters players dont follow the regression
swunder
Profile Joined June 2009
United States22 Posts
April 04 2013 04:22 GMT
#105
On April 04 2013 12:35 reo_b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2013 17:45 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
One thing I have always been thinking, is that people often talk about multitasking in starcraft. But actually there is no real multitasking in starcraft, it is not even possible. All actions are in sequences, they do not happen simultaneously. What people think is multitasking, is actually just switching fast between different actions.

In contrary, there is real multitasking in fighter pilot training and actually flying the jet plane, and it is far more difficult than starcrafts "multitasking" which is not even real multitasking. So if you wanna study multitasking, fighter pilots and their training programs are something that should be checked. Even the qualifiers for pilot training programs are very difficult. Flying jets also requires great deal of emergency management skills, which again is far more demanding than playing starcraft. Specially when considered that fighter pilots need to learn to deal with high G-forces and they have to study lots of theory of physics of flying and how the jet itself works, learning to fly jet planes is harder than starcraft.


Well, you've sucked me in, had to register an account.

You keep putting this study down in multiple posts with baseless and extraneous criticisms. Can I ask, what are your qualifications?

Humans are inherently incapable of "high level" multi-tasking. We're similar to a single core processor, rapidly switching between different tasks. Our "sensors" - feel, sight, hearing, etc. - provide "interrupts" (in the computer science sense) that signal our brains' higher-level areas to refocus on a new task. Much like a computer switching tasks, this mental task switching incurs overhead (thus it is more efficient for humans to finish single tasks to completion than it is to hop between several tasks).

Flying a jet is no more "multi-tasking" than Starcraft is. In fact, there is much less task-switching in flying a plane. When you're in an emergency situation piloting a plane, your entire attention is on the single situation at hand. You are flying the plane, based on input from a number of your senses. To add an extra layer of "multi-tasking" to flying a plane, you could add random math problems (on top of an emergency situation) that need to be solved on an interval to prevent the controls from locking out. This would be kind of like attending to worker macro during an intense battle.

Before you ask: Yes, I fly planes. Yes, I play Starcraft.


Now THAT is a first post!
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
April 04 2013 04:37 GMT
#106
I love that Masters players don't gg, fits what I've seen!
baba44713
Profile Joined October 2011
83 Posts
April 04 2013 10:17 GMT
#107
Is the last graph "probability of qq" or "probability of gg"?
Newbdizzle
Profile Joined March 2013
United States18 Posts
April 12 2013 16:55 GMT
#108
On April 04 2013 12:35 reo_b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2013 17:45 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
One thing I have always been thinking, is that people often talk about multitasking in starcraft. But actually there is no real multitasking in starcraft, it is not even possible. All actions are in sequences, they do not happen simultaneously. What people think is multitasking, is actually just switching fast between different actions.

In contrary, there is real multitasking in fighter pilot training and actually flying the jet plane, and it is far more difficult than starcrafts "multitasking" which is not even real multitasking. So if you wanna study multitasking, fighter pilots and their training programs are something that should be checked. Even the qualifiers for pilot training programs are very difficult. Flying jets also requires great deal of emergency management skills, which again is far more demanding than playing starcraft. Specially when considered that fighter pilots need to learn to deal with high G-forces and they have to study lots of theory of physics of flying and how the jet itself works, learning to fly jet planes is harder than starcraft.


Well, you've sucked me in, had to register an account.

You keep putting this study down in multiple posts with baseless and extraneous criticisms. Can I ask, what are your qualifications?

Humans are inherently incapable of "high level" multi-tasking. We're similar to a single core processor, rapidly switching between different tasks. Our "sensors" - feel, sight, hearing, etc. - provide "interrupts" (in the computer science sense) that signal our brains' higher-level areas to refocus on a new task. Much like a computer switching tasks, this mental task switching incurs overhead (thus it is more efficient for humans to finish single tasks to completion than it is to hop between several tasks).

Flying a jet is no more "multi-tasking" than Starcraft is. In fact, there is much less task-switching in flying a plane. When you're in an emergency situation piloting a plane, your entire attention is on the single situation at hand. You are flying the plane, based on input from a number of your senses. To add an extra layer of "multi-tasking" to flying a plane, you could add random math problems (on top of an emergency situation) that need to be solved on an interval to prevent the controls from locking out. This would be kind of like attending to worker macro during an intense battle.

Before you ask: Yes, I fly planes. Yes, I play Starcraft.


I salute you sir. Your first post is far more memorable than mine. Welcome to the realm of those who used to lurk and were yanked into posted because something demanded responding. I greet you as a fellow member ^_^
m0ck
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
4194 Posts
April 12 2013 18:07 GMT
#109
Just noticed this post, what an interesting topic. Computer games really have an exceptional potential for providing data on learning - and perhaps on motivation further ahead. SC2 provides a mix between the strategic, decision-making skills of a game like chess, and the physical, "mechanical" skills of traditional sports, and it ties them up in knot of perceptual learning. Trying to tease apart the variables of importance must be fascinating work.

For a practical issue, a few of the graphs in your post comes of as somewhat confusing on a first reading. I don't quite understand the use of the three bars to indicate percentages in the first two graphs in the settings data section. Would it not be more intuitive/better for comparison to use a single bar divided into three areas for every league (stacked bar graph)?

I wonder if you'll be doing more research with a focus on the highest echelon of players in the future? From my perspective, the differences between players from the masters level and up are very interesting. Have you considered attempting to compare the interactive data from the replays with more direct perceptual data? I'm thinking something akin to eye-tracking. As far as I can tell, the data from a replay will not easily allow you to measure a players awareness of the mini-map, for instance.

Another area of inquiry could be the success of players at different periods of time in the game. At later stages (say +10 minutes) there are generally more things in the game to keep track of and more things to do. Just from watching different SC2 players, there are big differences in how well otherwise seemingly equally "skilled" players manage that increased demand on attention and action.

Well, best of luck with your work. Please keep updating us.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 17 2013 17:44 GMT
#110
Has the paper been accepted / published yet? Inquiring minds must know!
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
May 18 2013 19:22 GMT
#111
What's interesting about Starcraft 2 is that it is one of the few real time played games which has its statistical record keeping hard coded/built into the game rules rather than externally recorded. This makes it a prime candidate for an analysis of stress. As an example, the predisposition to certain personality types to "panic" in game through rapid action movement, a suddenly drop in useful APM upon an engagement and so on.

I look forward to seeing the results of this.
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
May 21 2013 19:24 GMT
#112
On May 18 2013 02:44 dsjoerg wrote:
Has the paper been accepted / published yet? Inquiring minds must know!


We were asked to do some revisions to the manuscript, which we did, and just sent it in today.

We're hoping the editor just accepts it as is without sending it back out to reviewers. If that happens, it will be maybe 3 weeks till it's available online. We submitted to an open access journal, so everyone can just download the paper without needing to be affiliated to a university or pay anything.

If they send it out to reviewers again add 3 weeks.

If the editor goes insane and rejects this revision add 6 months. I don't think that will happen though.
SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
May 21 2013 19:25 GMT
#113
On May 19 2013 04:22 Evangelist wrote:
What's interesting about Starcraft 2 is that it is one of the few real time played games which has its statistical record keeping hard coded/built into the game rules rather than externally recorded. This makes it a prime candidate for an analysis of stress. As an example, the predisposition to certain personality types to "panic" in game through rapid action movement, a suddenly drop in useful APM upon an engagement and so on.

I look forward to seeing the results of this.


We have a dataset of 26 games with corresponding heartrate data. We'll be working on this over the summer.
SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
May 21 2013 19:30 GMT
#114
On April 13 2013 03:07 m0ck wrote:
I wonder if you'll be doing more research with a focus on the highest echelon of players in the future? From my perspective, the differences between players from the masters level and up are very interesting. Have you considered attempting to compare the interactive data from the replays with more direct perceptual data? I'm thinking something akin to eye-tracking. As far as I can tell, the data from a replay will not easily allow you to measure a players awareness of the mini-map, for instance.



Using the minimap to A-move is predictive in some leagues. So that tells us something. We'll do eye-tracking work eventually, we were an eye-tracking lab before we starting doing SC2 research. With eye-tracking samples are small though, because you have to run people individually.
SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 22 2013 00:54 GMT
#115
On May 19 2013 04:22 Evangelist wrote:
What's interesting about Starcraft 2 is that it is one of the few real time played games which has its statistical record keeping hard coded/built into the game rules rather than externally recorded. This makes it a prime candidate for an analysis of stress. As an example, the predisposition to certain personality types to "panic" in game through rapid action movement, a suddenly drop in useful APM upon an engagement and so on.

I look forward to seeing the results of this.


I must see my personal panic meter! :D
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
Gene(S)is
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden419 Posts
May 23 2013 23:03 GMT
#116
Cool study! Would be intresting to see how people manage their Orbital Command and Nexus energy too
For the swarm
Jezebeth
Profile Joined May 2013
United States23 Posts
May 29 2013 04:04 GMT
#117
On April 04 2013 12:35 reo_b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2013 17:45 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
One thing I have always been thinking, is that people often talk about multitasking in starcraft. But actually there is no real multitasking in starcraft, it is not even possible. All actions are in sequences, they do not happen simultaneously. What people think is multitasking, is actually just switching fast between different actions.

In contrary, there is real multitasking in fighter pilot training and actually flying the jet plane, and it is far more difficult than starcrafts "multitasking" which is not even real multitasking. So if you wanna study multitasking, fighter pilots and their training programs are something that should be checked. Even the qualifiers for pilot training programs are very difficult. Flying jets also requires great deal of emergency management skills, which again is far more demanding than playing starcraft. Specially when considered that fighter pilots need to learn to deal with high G-forces and they have to study lots of theory of physics of flying and how the jet itself works, learning to fly jet planes is harder than starcraft.


Well, you've sucked me in, had to register an account.

You keep putting this study down in multiple posts with baseless and extraneous criticisms. Can I ask, what are your qualifications?

Humans are inherently incapable of "high level" multi-tasking. We're similar to a single core processor, rapidly switching between different tasks. Our "sensors" - feel, sight, hearing, etc. - provide "interrupts" (in the computer science sense) that signal our brains' higher-level areas to refocus on a new task. Much like a computer switching tasks, this mental task switching incurs overhead (thus it is more efficient for humans to finish single tasks to completion than it is to hop between several tasks).

Flying a jet is no more "multi-tasking" than Starcraft is. In fact, there is much less task-switching in flying a plane. When you're in an emergency situation piloting a plane, your entire attention is on the single situation at hand. You are flying the plane, based on input from a number of your senses. To add an extra layer of "multi-tasking" to flying a plane, you could add random math problems (on top of an emergency situation) that need to be solved on an interval to prevent the controls from locking out. This would be kind of like attending to worker macro during an intense battle.

Before you ask: Yes, I fly planes. Yes, I play Starcraft.



Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.

As for the material presented in the thread. This was utterly intriguing. Thank you for this- this is one of the most interesting things I've seen in days.
Success is not never falling. In fact, success is falling- and getting up one time more.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
June 25 2013 16:20 GMT
#118
On May 22 2013 04:24 CrushDog5 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2013 02:44 dsjoerg wrote:
Has the paper been accepted / published yet? Inquiring minds must know!


We were asked to do some revisions to the manuscript, which we did, and just sent it in today.

We're hoping the editor just accepts it as is without sending it back out to reviewers. If that happens, it will be maybe 3 weeks till it's available online. We submitted to an open access journal, so everyone can just download the paper without needing to be affiliated to a university or pay anything.

If they send it out to reviewers again add 3 weeks.

If the editor goes insane and rejects this revision add 6 months. I don't think that will happen though.


What's the latest?
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
June 25 2013 16:50 GMT
#119
The editor decided to send it back to reviewers. That means it will add some time to the process (unfortunately).
It really does take forever to get this stuff published!!

In the meantime we are writing up a study of how age influences performance, a paper on performance and heart rate, and a paper on performance variability in pro practice games. Hopefully, having the first paper published already will make subsequent papers go more smoothly.

SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
Dreamer.T
Profile Joined December 2009
United States3584 Posts
June 25 2013 16:59 GMT
#120
Anyone else laugh at that sudden dip of gg's going from diamond to masters?
Forever the best, IMMvp <3
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