Edit: Videos will not be saved, so if you want to back up your content it needs to be done in the next day before the shutdown. There are extensions such as this that will help with the process. Following speculation over the past several weeks that the streaming platform was in trouble, today it was officially announced that Own3d.tv would stop all services effective tomorrow.
own3D and its management, having evaluated the future of own3D, have decided to cease operations on January 31st, 2013.
As the first livestreaming portal for gamers own3D had a turbulent start with unexpected growth. We have tried to drive the company into profitability but due to the capital intensive nature of our industry and increasing competition, we have not been able to reach it despite our best efforts.
This is a difficult decision for all of us at own3D. However, after much deliberation this seems to be the best course of action despite the impact it will have on all the employees, clients and partners who helped build this business.
We are grateful for your support as our pioneering ride comes to an end. The own3D team has always aspired to provide the gaming community with the best tools for sharing their gaming experiences and growing their projects. We therefore hope that you have enjoyed watching a few epics over the years.
The day has almost arrived when professional gamers are as recognized as other athletes. We hope to have shown what is possible for the future of eSport and competitive gaming.
The gaming revolution will not be televised - it will be streamed.
Your own3D team.
Note: Business partners will be contacted directly regarding proceedings
now it feels kinda wrong knowing that the only streaming platform is twich . however hope all the employees will get picked up by Azubu ( there are rumors saying azubu gonna open it's own streaming platform )
It's a shame they had to go down, but they weren't able to hold their end of agreements. Hopefully the departure of own3d.tv opens the door for other companies to fill the space and give twitch some good competition.
Its a shame but I never really liked the own3d stream platform to be honest, it was never as good quality or as smooth as twitch in my experience. Odd because I hated JustinTV at the beginning for being poor quality, but they seem to have turned it around with the introduction of twitch. With the bad press they have had recently about not paying their partners, I am not surprised at this announcement. I still remember the days when people had to stream from their own internet connection to loads of people
GG. I guess it was good while it lasted? I hardly used Own3d.tv the user interface was clunky and un-user-friendly (if that ever was a word). Twitch is better... however....it will become a monopoly
That's what happens when you lure streamers to your site with the promise of more money than twitch. Anyone can promise more money, but it looks like they promised money they never had and pulled the wool over a ton of streamers eyes.
I don't really blame the streamers because they don't really need to have stream platform loyalty since they need to earn as much as they can, but it is a shame they will never see that money now. Long live twitch though! I've always liked them more than own3d since they've always had a better service and never seemed like a shady company like own3d.
Really sad to see own3d go down.. I liked own3d before when twitch had problems with servers (lag) in Europe, and there was the competitiveness between the companys.
On January 31 2013 08:43 NuclearStar wrote: Its a shame but I never really liked the own3d stream platform to be honest, it was never as good quality or as smooth as twitch in my experience. Odd because I hated JustinTV at the beginning for being poor quality, but they seem to have turned it around with the introduction of twitch. With the bad press they have had recently about not paying their partners, I am not surprised at this announcement. I still remember the days when people had to stream from their own internet connection to loads of people
Ya if you go to the current twitch site its basically the same as it was 2 years ago- very crappy. I guess they are putting all theyre resources into Twitch to focus on gaming.
On January 31 2013 08:36 FLeK0 wrote: So many important VODs will go poof
So much history lost...
I bet many times in the future we will come upon some archive that links... VODs on own3D... and we will feel so bad. (that's not only about SC2, but many other impactful games of our time)
I like Twitch way better, but I can't say this is necessarily good for gamers. I know many top Koreans use Own3d over Twitch so their vods will probably disappear.
Sucks for the people that actually like the site, and for competition in the market for Twitch. I hope they don't get complacent. Can't say I'm surprised with the recent stories, though.
As the first livestreaming portal for gamers
Going off on a slight tangent here but this is a blatant lie. I've had a site for aggregating streams from other streaming services (Justin.tv and Ustream.tv initially) with a focus on gaming streams since well before own3d was around. One of the big things we did early on was having a much easier to manage chat, which has since been made redundant by Twitch's chat improvements. Our domain name was registered on 5 December 2007. own3d.tv was registered on 22 January 2009. Just because we never got hugely popular outside our initial target of Rock Band and Guitar Hero streams from ScoreHero doesn't mean we weren't there earlier. :| Our lack of activity has led the site to be pretty dead in recent years, but proof of earlier activity is readily available.
There is some lag on Twitch in France with some internet provider. I hope there will be some fix or another concurrent. There is still Dailymotion stream which is quite ok too and have a decent CPM for france stream I think.
I guess this is a good thing. We probably want a monopoly on streaming right now because so few industries sponsor us compared to real sports. They don't send us tons of money either, so instead of breaking up the already small amount of money, send it all to one place so we can get highest quality on a website that isn't going anywhere.
Now that this has happened part of me really wants to see how many viewers are gonna be on twitch now, the sad part is no real competition. I'm sure somebody will come up the next year though..
As much as i dislike own3d because of their shady bsns, the bad quality of the stream or how much bullshitting the press statement feels like, I couldnt help but love this part:
"The gaming revolution will not be televised - it will be streamed."
On January 31 2013 09:13 JustPassingBy wrote: So, does ceases operation mean "went bankcrupt"?
Why else would they cease operations if not money problems?
Well might be they understood that they will stop making profit soon due to some unresolvable problems so "Own3d.tv to cease operations" can be read as run with money "turn on ignore all mode"
On January 31 2013 08:45 Canucklehead wrote: That's what happens when you lure streamers to your site with the promise of more money than twitch. Anyone can promise more money, but it looks like they promised money they never had and pulled the wool over a ton of streamers eyes.
I don't really blame the streamers because they don't really need to have stream platform loyalty since they need to earn as much as they can, but it is a shame they will never see that money now. Long live twitch though! I've always liked them more than own3d since they've always had a better service and never seemed like a shady company like own3d.
Someone mentioned Twitch came about because of Own3d (which came first) bad chat. Most moved over to Justin.tv because it had better chat system then eventually twitch was made.
So while Twitch was better, Own3d did start things first. It's too bad that they weren't able to fix things and stay in business.
Damn, one streamer pops their balloon and they whizz away? I wish we could kill all shitty organizations this way. One confession showing their inability to follow-up and they close shop :B
Owned was already a good streaming platform back when justin.tv was nothing but justin 'any stream with more than 20 viewers has a paywall' .tv. Sad to see it go. Sadder to see a monopoly being created.
I figured something like this was happened. Clearly not enough cash flow/capital to pay their streamers (who are the real victims here -- that's a ton of lost income that they can no longer dispute T___T).
Cool. People were doing that on Mogulus/Livestream in 2008 though, and they still are.
I really don't understand this point of view that people have in small communities like this where being the first to do something within that community somehow makes you the first to ever do it. Nobody would make a point to say they designed the first airplane for professional wrestlers or the first hat for Mexicans. Artifically limiting your audience and your pool of talent isn't an innovation. All you have to do on a normal streaming site is search for "games".
Reminds me of an episode of Dragons Den. A guy wanted to start a perscription glasses store that catered only to women. They berated him pretty intensely for thinking that immediately cutting his potential clientele in half was a business plan.
On January 31 2013 08:37 Wasteweiser wrote: Sad for Europe, now you guys are stuck with the twitch monopoly.
I'm from EU (Germany) and i never had big issues with Twitch. Meanwhile own3d was laggy most of the times ...
I concur with this. Very few streams I watched used own3d but the ones that did were incredibly laggy and offered lackluster HD (1080p that clearly wasn't 1080p). People seem to be worried that Twitch now have the monopoly, these fears are valid (monopoly's are never good for consumers) but it really doesn't change anything in my opinion. Duopoly's are hardly any better and Twitch has been the leader for a long long time now.
Going off on a slight tangent here but this is a blatant lie. I've had a site for aggregating streams from other streaming services (Justin.tv and Ustream.tv initially) with a focus on gaming streams since well before own3d was around. One of the big things we did early on was having a much easier to manage chat, which has since been made redundant by Twitch's chat improvements. Our domain name was registered on 5 December 2007. own3d.tv was registered on 22 January 2009. Just because we never got hugely popular outside our initial target of Rock Band and Guitar Hero streams from ScoreHero doesn't mean we weren't there earlier. :| Our lack of activity has led the site to be pretty dead in recent years, but proof of earlier activity is readily available.
Aggregating streams is not the same as providing your own streaming platform with its own routing contracts and so on.
It's probably not a lie at all. Any other gaming streaming service we could think of has been based on a larger general-purpose streaming platform. (eg: twitch is based on justin.tv)
Sad, but Own3d was never as good as Twitch, and it was a bit inevitable once Twitch overtook it in almost every aspect. I love the quote though, ends Own3d with an epic ending.
so what im learning from the Lo3 with own3d's COO is that they were constantly losing money but kept accepting/signing more streamers to contracts that they knew they couldn't pay out unless some how they came into more money O_o
This is disgusting, it seems like a trend in esports is a bunch of people way too young to run companies and to be held accountable for so much responsibility. I don't know whether things will ever become legitimate. . . . .
On January 31 2013 10:40 KimJongChill wrote: This is disgusting, it seems like a trend in esports is a bunch of people way too young to run companies and to be held accountable for so much responsibility. I don't know whether things will ever become legitimate. . . . .
Like Google and Larry Page, Sergey Brin. Like Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg... ?
Won't pay destiny the 6months of streaming hes owed because he breached the contract because he hadnt been paid in 6 months? I think its a good thing this company's going under. The way he\s wording stuff sounds like the only people that will be getting money are employees and creditors, the streams are gunna get screwed completely.
On January 31 2013 10:57 SMD wrote: Won't pay destiny the 6months of streaming hes owed because he breached the contract because he hadnt been paid in 6 months? I think its a good thing this company's going under. The way he\s wording stuff sounds like the only people that will be getting money are employees and creditors, the streams are gunna get screwed completely.
Does it really surprise you that they are trying to avoid paying as much as possible? Whether it would be paying someone else or no one.
I can't say I didn't avoid using own3d... found it a pain to use and whatnot, but still, I hope this provides a solution to all the players wronged by this whole saga.
boo i wish they would like dump all the VODs into an online locker for a month or something... I mean the videos have got to be huge in size, but storage isn't that expensive and well, been running on debt for long enough... gonna lose a lot of fun and exciting VODs
On January 31 2013 10:40 KimJongChill wrote: This is disgusting, it seems like a trend in esports is a bunch of people way too young to run companies and to be held accountable for so much responsibility. I don't know whether things will ever become legitimate. . . . .
Doesn't it work like that everywhere? A bunch of young people might fail with esports, and the old friends of my parents might fail with a pub. The pub will also likely end up in debt and never pay people at the end of its run.
It's a shame, not because it was a particularly good product (IMO) but because only having one major streaming platform is bad long-term. I hope someone else gets into this game. TBH, I don't really care home many commercials I have to watch provided (1) if I mute the stream, the commercials will also be muted when they come on (you know, like when I watch TV), and (2) the timing of the commercials is controlled by the streamer.
This is all you've got to do, but even Twitch has trouble with it.
I keep hearing the "Twitch needs competition" argument. CLG and Azubu partnered together and have their own streaming platform on the way. Good news for healthy competition.
On January 31 2013 11:35 sirachman wrote: Start downloading your vods and for the love of all that is food start backing important shit up before moments like this.
All the Dota2 fans shouldn't worried about JoinDota/The Defense vods either. Tobi just tweeted this few minutes ago:
For anyone worried about the jD VOD archive, it is all 100% backed up locally and on youtube. Defense prize pool is also 100% safe
All those regular and popular streamers (namely Dota2 streamers such as SingSing, the entire NaVi Dota line-up, the Defense with TobiWan...) are suddenly left without platform to stream with. The signs were pointing towards this shameful conclusion, and everyone was expecting it, but it's still sad to hear... I mean if they pulled their shit together (I think organizations like Own3d need purges to make sure their enterprise stays afloat, not just a bunch of friends who happen to know some programming stuff), they would have been, I believe, able to get through their financial/organizational crisis. I've said this again, and I'll say it again for the last time: what a shame.
Can anyone explain what happened to livestream and ustream? they're obviously still around, but it doesn't seem like anyone in any gaming community uses either platform anymore.
On January 31 2013 12:00 khy wrote: Can anyone explain what happened to livestream and ustream? they're obviously still around, but it doesn't seem like anyone in any gaming community uses either platform anymore.
On January 31 2013 08:33 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Edit: Videos will not be saved, so if you want to back up your content it needs to be done in the next day before the shutdown. There are extensions such as this that will help with the process. Following speculation over the past several weeks that the streaming platform was in trouble, today it was officially announced that Own3d.tv would stop all services effective tomorrow.
own3D and its management, having evaluated the future of own3D, have decided to cease operations on January 31st, 2013.
As the first livestreaming portal for gamers own3D had a turbulent start with unexpected growth. We have tried to drive the company into profitability but due to the capital intensive nature of our industry and increasing competition, we have not been able to reach it despite our best efforts.
This is a difficult decision for all of us at own3D. However, after much deliberation this seems to be the best course of action despite the impact it will have on all the employees, clients and partners who helped build this business.
We are grateful for your support as our pioneering ride comes to an end. The own3D team has always aspired to provide the gaming community with the best tools for sharing their gaming experiences and growing their projects. We therefore hope that you have enjoyed watching a few epics over the years.
The day has almost arrived when professional gamers are as recognized as other athletes. We hope to have shown what is possible for the future of eSport and competitive gaming.
The gaming revolution will not be televised - it will be streamed.
Your own3D team.
Note: Business partners will be contacted directly regarding proceedings
The gaming revolution will not be televised - it will be streamed.
And it wont be on Own3d hueheuheuheh
I do not feel sad for this but rather happy. enough with the bad business and scams.
Good riddance. Any company ripping contracts is doomed to fail eventually. Interesting to see which streaming/video site steps up and take up all the let-go streamers
On January 31 2013 13:06 KookyMonster wrote: Good riddance. Any company ripping contracts is doomed to fail eventually. Interesting to see which streaming/video site steps up and take up all the let-go streamers
Gotta look at causation the other way too. Any company that is doomed to fail will start ripping up contracts.
On January 31 2013 11:30 GeorgeForeman wrote: It's a shame, not because it was a particularly good product (IMO) but because only having one major streaming platform is bad long-term. I hope someone else gets into this game. TBH, I don't really care home many commercials I have to watch provided (1) if I mute the stream, the commercials will also be muted when they come on (you know, like when I watch TV), and (2) the timing of the commercials is controlled by the streamer.
This is all you've got to do, but even Twitch has trouble with it.
Youtube is in the game. It's ridiculously suprising to me not many people are using it yet for live streaming.
When Google starts caring more live stream gaming, Twitch is going to bite the dust.
I feel bad for all of the people who are going to lose their jobs but ultimately, good riddance. Own3d was a horrid platform with a serious dearth of content, a horrible user interface, and atrocious streaming issues. Not to mention the way they conduct business, as evidenced by Destiny's story of working with them for a year.
Good luck to all who will be in the job market, your skills are still highly valuable so please keep your chin up.
Good. Shit company that is way overdue to pay it's streamers. If they fail to pay I hope all involved in such abysmal dealings don't get another chance (meaning own3d employees, not the streamers themselves).
On January 31 2013 11:30 GeorgeForeman wrote: It's a shame, not because it was a particularly good product (IMO) but because only having one major streaming platform is bad long-term. I hope someone else gets into this game. TBH, I don't really care home many commercials I have to watch provided (1) if I mute the stream, the commercials will also be muted when they come on (you know, like when I watch TV), and (2) the timing of the commercials is controlled by the streamer.
This is all you've got to do, but even Twitch has trouble with it.
Youtube is in the game. It's ridiculously suprising to me not many people are using it yet for live streaming.
When Google starts caring more live stream gaming, Twitch is going to bite the dust.
Cause as fxo boss pointed out last year, Youtube live streams don't allow third party sponsorships, so all those fancy overlays with sponsors on them would be banned if streamed on youtube, which defeats the purpose of streaming for teams.
You should also note that Youtube streams have a STRICT policy of not showing third party sponsorships on stream. So our overlays on the video embed will NEVER have anything but FXOpen on them. This is a reason why no other team will want to use them as it doesn’t allow for sponsor exposure.
Glad to see own3d go. My biggest problem with Own3d .... When they had 3 consecutive ads that were the same gdawful ad over and over again, I never understood why they never changed that. -- Hope as many VoD's get saved as possible, it'd be a crime if all that content went to the void.
Sad, but I guess it's a tough market. Them and Twitch are competing for the same viewers and the same streamers and, in my mind, Twitch has always been the better choice, so I guess this is how it'll go.
GL to all involved and I hope this doesn't trouble you or your lives.
I am a bit surprised. It was expected, that owned will close its doors but that they will announce it ONE day before is very close. Its nearly not possible to save all those VODs, if you have more then just 3 or 4 of them.
Also I have to say the following:
When I read things like "Twitch gettin to popular" or "we need a good competitor for twitch" and "Twitch is going to bite the dust" I have the feeling, that people look down to Twitch as a bad "thing" (now). Sure, competition is good and I also think there have to be more that one popular streaming company but I think you have to keep in mind, that Twitch once was the alternative for own3d and that it was/is good. (Problems will always be there, like Twitch had in several tournaments, as you maybe noticed).
In the end, e-sports really matters, not streaming software/ company.
On January 31 2013 17:55 Hanna wrote: I am a bit surprised. It was expected, that owned will close its doors but that they will announce it ONE day before is very close. Its nearly not possible to save all those VODs, if you have more then just 3 or 4 of them.
Well if a company goes bankrupt, operations usually stop very fast
Competition is good but can also be bad. Like how Own3d offered a worse service but was competetive by paying streamers more. It's like the exclusivity shit in consoles. Instead of just making a different product that is better they just restrict content so it doesn't have to be about the service and that just sucks for consumers.
On January 31 2013 18:00 Stitch wrote: Wow. What about the money they owed all the people they didn't pay? What the hell man.
It gets incredible complicated at this point since they might not be able to pay anyone even if they wanted to. When you go bankrupt you also lose power over your own company regarding what choices to be made so it could very well be that someone else is overseeing the bankruptcy process and actually is preventing the owner of giving money to the parties involved since that in itself could affect the bankrupt process in a negative way.
On January 31 2013 10:40 KimJongChill wrote: This is disgusting, it seems like a trend in esports is a bunch of people way too young to run companies and to be held accountable for so much responsibility. I don't know whether things will ever become legitimate. . . . .
Like Google and Larry Page, Sergey Brin. Like Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg... ?
the difference being that those guys can take responsibility.
No they had success while own3d didn't have success. This streaming platforms are all startups. Even twitch still needs venture capital. own3d could not find a partner in time or could not secure the solution by selling the company--> bankrupt. Happens often to startups
I'm personally curious how youtube becoming more capable with streaming will affect the market. Youtube won't have the same focus on gaming that twitch has unless they start a separate chain, much like twitch and justintv. When it comes to that, Youtube is still really far behind, on the other hand, they've surely got more advertisers readily available in all regions than anyone. They'll have to accept we have our own sponsors and parties of interest first and foremost.
I don't really see Youtube catering to us like Twitch does, but it'll be an option at least. I guess ustream is still around, but they've shown they aren't able to grow quick enough to keep up. I don't have much faith in their management changing their philosophies any time soon.
Always sad that a company has to shutdown, but as for own3d, I don't really care. Twitch/justin was always the better alternative IMO (especially now considering destiny's article).
terrible that they didn't pay the players, its a bit like not paying your staff... they are the real victims in all of this. I hate broken promises and unenforceable contracts. Own3d shall be another chapter in the eSport history of disappointment.
Awesome, frauds like these should go bankrupt. Also, twitch has been better than own3d.tv in europe for quite a while. I also can't really believe that they aren't making a profit considering they've stolen probably hundreds of thousands from their streamers.
Also judging by this it seems like Azubu might be a legit contender. Then again CLG did parter with own3d and we see how that went. Still, they have multiple streamers that get 10k+ viewers and that can't be bad for Azubu's growth. .
On February 01 2013 00:18 Hoon wrote: Wait.. so own3d will close and everyone will forget they owe money? Shouldn't the CEO and/or everyone responsible get arrested or something?
I guess that's the downside from internet content. It's very fragile since it costs time, manhours, money to keep it alive, while we still have papyrus documents from 1000s of years ago and stone tablets way older even.
Imagine google going bankrupt.... big part of this era's history would be gone.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
I can't say I'm sad that an inferior streaming site in so many ways has shut down, however I am really really sorry to those people who did stream there and did not or will not have time to get their videos downloaded and backed up. It is pretty tragic that the company was not more responsible to its users in letting them know this was coming and providing options for people to back up their content.
All I can say is, I welcome all of the former Own3D guys to Twitch, a much better platform, a great community, and hope that Twitch keeps charging ahead even with no one else challenging them.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
On January 31 2013 11:38 LoLAdriankat wrote: I keep hearing the "Twitch needs competition" argument. CLG and Azubu partnered together and have their own streaming platform on the way. Good news for healthy competition.
Seriously, people, I don't see how you can expect this "Azubu" stuff to be real.
own3d.tv just proved it to the world: a decent tech staff, decent funding, a more than decent product (even though Twitch is better, at the end of the day), business partners and pretty decent fill rate of qualified ads (Alienware, Intel, etc.), events and famous streamers on the website...
...and STILL they're shutting down because it's just too capital intensive an activity to maintain, when you're a start-up.
Live streaming is a business that requires a LOT of money. When it scales, broadband costs become INSANE, and to keep up with it, you need a sales force that ramps up faster.
The only actors that can now enter the market are large-to-huge tech companies that already own the infrastructure, or have enough money to keep up with CDN and human resources costs: YouTube, Dailymotion, and a few others. Why do you think Twitch had to raise so much money?
Certainly not a small organization, whose main focus is to manage a League of Legends team... -_-
Any half-skilled developer can build a live stream platform. Doesn't mean they can sustain it.
EDIT: unless of course Azubu has raised enough money to play in the game.
Wow... Just watched the interview on Live On Three, and it makes me happy that Own3d.tv is dead. Hope they don't get back into e-sports at all. That Oleg guy seemed so shady. The interview itself wasn't even satisfying, as there was not even info given. But, the comment about not paying streamers, because of breach of contract, is complete and utter BS! Destiny even has the contract up on his site. Makes Oleg look like a joke, and a corrupt jackass. The community should rip them a new one to show that we don't tolerate this from any business. Lying scumbags.
EDIT: Also, what was with all the fluff on the show? Seemed extra fluffy there at the end...
On February 01 2013 00:18 Hoon wrote: Wait.. so own3d will close and everyone will forget they owe money? Shouldn't the CEO and/or everyone responsible get arrested or something?
They definitely will not be arrested because breach of contract is a civil dispute.
As for "forgetting", it depends on how aggressively creditors chase them down. People like Destiny and ProTech are probably not inclined to go after them legally, just because it's so much heartache and they'd probably only get a pittance months from now. But if worse comes to worst, Own3d would declare bankruptcy and ask the court for mercy. If they have any assets, the court will liquidate and pay off creditors in a legally defined order (typically: taxes, payroll, debt holders, vendors, clients, equity holders).
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
Chances are the company isn't really completely bankrupt like people think. The only bills any streaming company should pay is for hosting on their sites and additional assets. After thinking carefully on it, i almost feel like its a kind of fraud.
I'll explain why:
1. When I became a partner, I attended a super fancy dinner in Anehaim, CA. I've never seen twitch do something like this with their partners. I found it a bit odd and thought highly of own3d.tv; that financially they were doing well.
2. Why would it take this long to announce a shutdown?
3. Also this is a partnership, meaning the company gets 50% or more of what the streamers are actually making through broadcasting commercials.
4. If no one has gotten paid the past 6 months, than obviously there is money saved up somewhere. (Shouldn't it be distributed evenly to partners the remaining amount?)
5. They told me financially they are fine through e-mails and skype. (I have evidance)
6. Lastly, how come they couldn't just tell me they were having problems through e-mails.
So my thing is, why blow the money on special events and stuff. Then out of no where stop paying for half a year and then shut everything down. I'm sorry, but my mind can't logically comprehend that this shutdown isn't shady. If own3d.tv can provide proof, then i'd be fine with it. Chances are they can't/won't.
On February 01 2013 03:52 vVvRuFF wrote: Chances are the company isn't really completely bankrupt like people think. The only bills any streaming company should pay is for hosting on their sites and additional assets. After thinking carefully on it, i almost feel like its a kind of fraud.
I'll explain why:
1. When I became a partner, I attended a super fancy dinner in Anehaim, CA. I've never seen twitch do something like this with their partners. I found it a bit odd and thought highly of own3d.tv; that financially they were doing well.
2. Why would it take this long to announce a shutdown?
3. Also this is a partnership, meaning the company gets 50% or more of what the streamers are actually making threw broadcasting commercials.
4. If no one has gotten paid the past 6 months, than obviously there is money saved up somewhere. (Shouldn't it be distributed evenly to partners the remaining amount?)
5. They told me financially they are fine through e-mails and skype. (I have evidance)
6. Lastly, how come they couldn't just tell me they were having problems through e-mails.
So my thing is, why blow the money on special events and stuff. Then out of no where stop paying for half a year and then shut everything down. I'm sorry, but my mind can't logically comprehend that this shutdown isn't shady. If own3d.tv can provide proof, then i'd be fine with it. Chances are they can't/won't.
My 2 Cents, RuFF
I think it's fairly simple :
1- You probably attended a dinner when things were going smoothly for the company. They had cash, they could afford a little marketing event to make sure you and your fellow partners were on board.
2- Probably looking for ways to keep the service up, until the last moment?
3- Most probably, yes.
4- No. Running a streaming company costs a LOT of money. How do you think they pay for bandwidth, servers and employees? Their share of the ad revenues went there. And well, your share probably did as well.
5- If they tell you: "we are going bankrupt, we might not be able to pay you", you leave. If you leave, they can't sell ads on your stream, because, well, there's no stream anymore. So they shut the company down. So they lied to you, hoping the situation would get better. Maybe at the time, the situation could have gone better - they were, after all, discussing a buyout by Machinima.com.
6- See point above. Also, my guess is they're a small company, and probably a bit swamped, right at the moment. Probably a dozen hot topics to work on, trying not to die (as a company). Communication probably went last.
This is just my (educated) guess
EDIT - Also, I feel there's a need to clarify what these "bills" you refer to really are:
On February 01 2013 03:52 vVvRuFF wrote: Chances are the company isn't really completely bankrupt like people think. The only bills any streaming company should pay is for hosting on their sites and additional assets. After thinking carefully on it, i almost feel like its a kind of fraud.
This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 0,133 GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 0,133 GB x 10800 seconds = 1 444,5 GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 28 890 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (28,8 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 28 890 x 0,07 = $2 022,3 every month.
And because you're a partner, they have to give you a decent chunk of any revenue they make with your stream (in reality, probably ~30%).
Last but not least, own3d has to transcode your live stream in different resolutions, so it can be watched by viewers with a slow internet connection (2mb/s is pretty high quality). It's a very CPU-intensive activity, so they'll either need need to buy a lot of machines, or rent cloud-based processing power (amazon? etc.) and this can quickly amount to a lot of money.
See the issue here? And you're just one fairly popular stream amongst hundreds.
Just imagine how much Tobiwan's Dota 2 stream, with its 10K concurrent viewers costs...
Add to that, employee salaries, server acquisitions and housing, office space, marketing expenses.
And well, you can see how this business needs SERIOUS MONEY to run! ;-)
On February 01 2013 03:52 vVvRuFF wrote: Chances are the company isn't really completely bankrupt like people think. The only bills any streaming company should pay is for hosting on their sites and additional assets. After thinking carefully on it, i almost feel like its a kind of fraud.
I'll explain why:
1. When I became a partner, I attended a super fancy dinner in Anehaim, CA. I've never seen twitch do something like this with their partners. I found it a bit odd and thought highly of own3d.tv; that financially they were doing well.
2. Why would it take this long to announce a shutdown?
3. Also this is a partnership, meaning the company gets 50% or more of what the streamers are actually making through broadcasting commercials.
4. If no one has gotten paid the past 6 months, than obviously there is money saved up somewhere. (Shouldn't it be distributed evenly to partners the remaining amount?)
5. They told me financially they are fine through e-mails and skype. (I have evidance)
6. Lastly, how come they couldn't just tell me they were having problems through e-mails.
So my thing is, why blow the money on special events and stuff. Then out of no where stop paying for half a year and then shut everything down. I'm sorry, but my mind can't logically comprehend that this shutdown isn't shady. If own3d.tv can provide proof, then i'd be fine with it. Chances are they can't/won't.
My 2 Cents, RuFF
I'll also take a stab at some of this:
1. Like any start-up, it seems in retrospect that they ran ahead of themselves financially. Can't read too much into it one way or the other.
2. Like the other poster said, they tried to salvage the situation until the very last moment and they probably thought they would close with Machinima. Usually companies don't announce that they're in distress until all hope is really and truly lost.
3. True, but you don't know when or what Own3d was getting paid by advertisers. I would guess that their revenue growth was far lower than they expected/needed.
4. Not true. They probably used the money to pay more urgent expenses, like making payroll. If you don't pay streamers, they bitch and moan on Skype. If you don't pay employees, someone pours water onto the server.
5. This is unfortunate, but they mislead you.
6. They probably mislead you because nobody wants to leak financial problems because they tend to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once a company lets it slip that they have financial problems, vendors start demanding payment asap and customers go somewhere else, which makes the problems worse.
That they tried to hide their problems by making special events isn't bad, distressed companies usually try "door-busters" and crap to boost sales. What makes it shady is that you apparently asked them about their financial situation and they lied to you. That and the fact that they're giving very little time to wind down and didn't form an exit strategy to close out everyone's account. That is amateurish and frankly just bad business.
Here is some small piece of advices. If you follow them you will cut the financial risks for you and your family.
You can use these simple rules to know what to do;
* If your salary is late more than a week, start apply for a new work. DO NOT WAIT. Because it means that the company you work for lacks money to pay the peoples salary in time. That is very serious situation and you should act accordingly to protect yourself. Then a new work is found, quit your old job.
* Don't listen to the management that things will be alright, it won't. The CEO/management will often lie to make you stay a while longer. Because without the staff, the company will die so they will say anything to make you stay. They are not trying to be evil; they just want the company to survive. But if it has gone this far; it is too late. You can't save the company, neither can the management!
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11,281GB = 225,70 GB /month of bandwidth consumption.
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225,70 / 0,07 = $3224,33 every month.
I think you might wanna run those numbers through your calc again
Assuming your values are corrent (which I have no idea if they are or aren't) that would mean that the stream costs roughly $15/month and not over 3k...
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
Uhm yeah you could, actually.. if you can get the loan. You'll also lose everything you bought with it.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
There is a difference between a person "going bankrupt" and a business. If you take out a loan then it's your responsibility to pay it back. If you can't then your creditors will take everything you own and sell it to make up for the money you loaned.
If a business goes bankrupt, then the creditors will take over any assets the business had to pay off the oustanding debts. In this case that includes any streamers who haven't recieved the money they were entitled to (though they are probably way down the list) It won't destroy the lifes of the people owning that business. Otherwise no one would ever start one.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
A corporation acts as a separate entity (at least in US law, where I am most familiar and is similar in Europe). Therefore, assuming the guys at Own3d did all the proper paperwork to create a company, their own private assets are protected. Only the assets of the company will be sold off to pay creditors, not the CEO's private home/car/etc. So that essentially leaves any servers or office space that Own3d actually owns to sell off. Unfortunately, they probably rent most of that stuff and so they don't even have those assets to sell to pay off their streamers (who are near the bottom of the list when it comes to getting paid during liquidation).
That's just the way business works. It's not easy to start a corporation and then find someone to give you a $50k loan without a sound business plan or product. I don't believe that's what the guys at Own3d ever intended. Most likely, they spent much of their own money and effort (without pay) to get it off the ground and into a company that other people would lend money to. Unfortunately, business is difficult and businesses often fail.
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11,281GB = 225,70 GB /month of bandwidth consumption.
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225,70 / 0,07 = $3224,33 every month.
I think you might wanna run those numbers through your calc again
Assuming your values are corrent (which I have no idea if they are or aren't) that would mean that the stream costs roughly $15/month and not over 3k...
woops my bad! Let me fix that! I got confused and mistook GB for...TB - and messed up with bit/byte calc.
This 1K viewers stream costs : $2 022,3 /month in Bandwidth
Figures are accurate. $0,07/GB is a pretty good deal but I'm sure own3d had an even better one (maybe down to $0,05/GB).
Still, to run this, you need an insane amount of money. OR custom peering agreements, and dedicated wires.
If wheat and slasher would just prepare a bit for their interview ... they could just read the Austrian law...google the point that matters took me less then 120 seconds... and then really ask questions and not take bullshit statements like "i am not allowed to say". How is he not allowed to talk about things that are now free to public?
Here You both had a job to do buy helping the gamers and ask oleg about for example the "Ediktsdatei". I dont think gamers will know about this. And because basically every person can take a look into this we know how much money they got / earned / lost / how they spend it and and and and.
And most important:
Name / Contact Data of the insolvency administrator - who is the only person who can tell you if you get something and the only person that matters if you want something. Or at least the court this will happen to get this data.
I am really disappointed buy eSport journalism! This was just another no brainer and not more.
ps: yes i am really emotional and I hope slasher/wheat will read this. And yes I study law so I have ofc better knowledge, but just take 5 min cross googling would bring you results even with zero basic law skills.
Ofc you can google with bings or any other service you want to google informations. (i love this joke)
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
On February 01 2013 10:01 tadL wrote: If wheat and slasher would just prepare a bit for their interview ... they could just read the Austrian law...google the point that matters took me less then 120 seconds... and then really ask questions and not take bullshit statements like "i am not allowed to say". How is he not allowed to talk about things that are now free to public?
Here You both had a job to do buy helping the gamers and ask oleg about for example the "Ediktsdatei". I dont think gamers will know about this. And because basically every person can take a look into this we know how much money they got / earned / lost / how they spend it and and and and.
And most important:
Name / Contact Data of the insolvency administrator - who is the only person who can tell you if you get something and the only person that matters if you want something. Or at least the court this will happen to get this data.
I am really disappointed buy eSport journalism! This was just another no brainer and not more.
ps: yes i am really emotional and I hope slasher/wheat will read this. And yes I study law so I have ofc better knowledge, but just take 5 min cross googling would bring you results even with zero basic law skills.
Ofc you can google with bings or any other service you want to google informations. (i love this joke)
Wait a minute, it's not the job of reporters to help people with finding the information of the creditors. Have you EVER seen information like that listed in an interview? That information should be on a statement from own3d somewhere, or made available by emailing Oleg. It surely shouldn't be on live on 3.......
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money).
Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users.
This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream.
Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick.
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
Wow, I really am tired... thanks for pointing it out - fixing this.
It doesn't really change my point though: running this business still costs a lot of money.
On February 01 2013 00:24 phil.ipp wrote: lol arrested ? for what? going bankrupt? thats not a felony.
other than that, what is owed here are peanuts. 100 dollar here, maybe 500 dollar there. its not like they made millions of debt.
go search the financial crisis threads and get some perspective.
Isn't it all the subscription money from every streamer? Some more money they promised on the contract etc etc. I'd imagine about 500$ for each player. Having 100 streamers, would result in 50k$. Also, it's not like they never made that money. Someone took that money and didn't give it to the streamers, so own3d will shut down with their pockets full.
LOL? They are bankrupt man. They don't have the pockets full. It isn't like that u get bandwidth, transcoding servers etc for free. But everybody could watch and stream for free. Ads just didn't make enough money IMO Even Twitch still needs venture capital. They acquired 15 million $ in September. This businesses are startups, they are not well established companies which are making tons of money
Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
HOW DO YOU PAY PEOPLE IF YOU ARE BANKRUPT?? Money does not appear out of thin air. the streamers on Own3d will never get fully paid because there is nothing to be paid with. Its a standard case of bankruptcy. Happens all the time, every single year, with dozens of companies.
So i can just loan 50k$, spend everything, say that I'm bankrupt and never pay it back? Money appears out of hard work. It should be expected that own3d's CEO pay everyone back, even if he has to sell his belongings, like his car, house, etc etc.
Not exactly because it depends on what type of company own3d was. If the company was a sole proprietorship then yes he will have to pay back the debts personally. Also same thing goes if the company is a partnership as well but if it was a Corporation that is a whole different ball game. At least I know here in the states, and I have studied a bit of business, you can declare bankruptcy as long as your business is a Corporation and get away with zero cost to you personally.
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money).
Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users.
This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream.
Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick.
As I said, I'm just focusing on the basic maths aspect of it. That's roughly what it would cost you without any peering agreement.
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
These pricing are not inaccurate - these, for instance, came from quotes we got from Level3, Akamaï and other CDNs - for a monthly commit of ~250 TB. They might have decreased during the past year. And at the end of the day, it depends on our monthly commit... for a PB or more, it's true you would probably get far better deals than that.
I have no idea what kind of data transfer deal you got for $0,003/GB, but it probably doesn't involve the guarantees/services CDNs provide (else, I'm interested in your provider details! ).
True, the word 'bandwidth' is used in different ways - every single CDN we've dealt with uses it for data transfer amounts though.
On February 01 2013 19:57 Cel.erity wrote: Why would own3d pay anything for data transfer? They have their own servers in place.
Yes, and the data those servers send has to go through some ones cable/wire/fibre, and you have to pay them for sending it, just like you pay your ISP. They just use low-level services that the ISPs use as well.
And on the matter of bandwidth, it does mean the amount of data a media can carry (Hz), but the mighty MURICAA has seen fit to use it for the amount of data transferred. One can only speculate what kind of treachery this tradition has born from. Just think about it.
EDIT: Yes I know, level3 etc. are also ISPs, but they provide their services to companies, smaller ISPs etc, not individual persons per say.
On February 01 2013 00:41 Hoon wrote: Well, ok. Even if they are bankrupt, they still owe money. It's not like you can go bankrupt and say "well, i don't have money, so I'll never pay you back". In my country, bankrupt or not, owing people money is a legal crime.
Sorry to be blunt but you have no idea what you are talking about.
In the civilized world there are two (very general) types of companies:
* companies where the business owner(s) are fully liable for any debts incurred by their business with their personal funds. these companies are hardly regulated and the owners can mix personal and company funds freely as there is no legal distinction between the owner and the company.
* companies where liability is limited to the company' assets. this type of company protects its owner from having to pay any debts incurred by his company but is regulated much more tightly (to protect creditors) and draws a clear line between the business and its owners' personal funds/debts/... .
Own3d.tv is an Austrian GmbH ("Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung" - "company with limited liability") which is a limited liability corporation, i.e. the company is a legal person that stands apart from its owner. Any debts incurred by the company are limited to the company's own assets and do not have to be serviced from its owners personal assets.
To provide some safety to creditors an Austrian GmbH is required to keep at least 35,000 € nominal capital (of which 17,500 € have to be actual cash/bank deposits, the other half can be in guarantees from the owners).
To delay filing for insolvency ("Krida" in Austria) and take on additional debts even when the company is already bankrupt (or bankruptcy is imminent) is a criminal offense in Austria (up to 2 years of prison, up to 3 years prison if the economic impact was significant) if it can be shown that the management has acted wantonly/grossly negligent which is a very high burden of proof. However, even (simple) negligence in this matter is a civil offense and can lead to the company management being made (personally) financially liable for additional losses incurred by the companies' creditors due to the management's negligent actions. The idea here is to prevent an already bankrupt company from burning even more of its assets (which could be liquidated to service at least part of its debts) by continuing to operate at a loss.
=> own3d.tv's liabilities are capped at its companies assets (which are guaranteed to be at least 35k €) unless it can be shown that the company management delayed filing for insolvency even after the company was already in a state of insolvency (inability to service its debts/pay its bills for several months would be a strong sign of insolvency). In that case you might sue own3d.tv's management in a civil court and try to get them to pay from their personal coffers.
According to this forum you are from Brazil - in Brazil the rough equivalent to an Austrian GmbH would be the Sociedade Limitada (Ltda). Just as with a GmbH a Ltda's liability is limited to the company's assets, the company is required to hold a nominal capital (62,200 reais which is apporx. 23,000 €) and the company owner's personal assets do not get touched in case of bankruptcy.
On February 01 2013 04:07 Titio wrote: This is very generic/high level explanation, for the sake of simplification
So you're a streamer. - you send a 1080p live stream, 2mb/s quality - you stream an average of 3h per day, 5 days a week. - say you're pretty popular, and you manage to get on average 1,000 viewers
Of course, you stream for free - and you get rev share. But, what does this cost own3d?
2- Because all of your viewers won't watch the HD stream, let's make the consider an arbitrary - yet conservative - breakdown:
- 500 viewers watch a medium quality stream at a 800kb/s bitrate - 300 viewers watch the HD stream at a full 2mb/s bitrate - 200 viewers watch the low quality stream at a 350kb/s bitrate
1000 viewers/second watching you mean a : 500 x 0,8 + 300 x 2 + 200 x 0,35 = 1,07Gb/s = 1,04GB/s bandwidth consumption. Because you're streaming 3h per session, your stream amounts for 1,04Gb x 10800 seconds = 11 285GB / day
That's 5 days x 4 weeks x 11 285GB = 225 703 GB /month of bandwidth consumption (225,7 TB).
Let's assume own3d has a very deal with a bandwidth provider/CDN (Level3? Akamai? TATA? etc.), and only pays $0,07 / GB (this usually comes after harsh negotiations).
Your stream costs own3d 225 703 x 0,07 = $15.799,22 every month
How do you go from 1.07Gb/s to 1.04GB/s? That makes no sense at all. 1.07Gb/s is ~0.13GB/s(8 bits = 1 byte) of bandwidth. So we're looking at 1404GB/day, 20 days a month, and 28080GB/month. So we're talking nearly 28TB, assuming $0.07/GB, that means we're looking at almost $1966 per month. Not even as much as you are talking about.
Please don't try to do bit to byte math again, as you're doing it wrong.
He also does not seem to know about peering. Generally speaking bandwidth is not something that costs money if you are using a lot of it (at least not a lot of money).
Also, you do not stream like that. You have semi-local mirrors, and send one stream to those. Those mirrors are located in places where you can peer a lot, and from them you send the data on to the end users.
This makes the cost of a 2-viewer stream rather similar to that of a 100000 viewer stream.
Also, consider how they would handle a 100k viewer 5Mbps stream without such a trick.
As I said, I'm just focusing on the basic maths aspect of it. That's roughly what it would cost you without any peering agreement.
Another issue is that the prices he quotes are highly inaccurate. Even we pay less than $1 per Mbit and month in the US (interrestingly, it is _way_ cheaper in europe and especially iceland), which comes out to $0.003 per Gbyte. And we are not big bandwidth users (less than 100Gbit total, unless I misremember).
I must also complain about how people use the word 'bandwidth' in the US. Bandwidth is how fast your channel is (or how many Hz it covers if it is not a digital one). What you are referring to is the amount of data transfer.
These pricing are not inaccurate - these, for instance, came from quotes we got from Level3, Akamaï and other CDNs - for a monthly commit of ~250 TB. They might have decreased during the past year. And at the end of the day, it depends on our monthly commit... for a PB or more, it's true you would probably get far better deals than that.
I have no idea what kind of data transfer deal you got for $0,003/GB, but it probably doesn't involve the guarantees/services CDNs provide (else, I'm interested in your provider details! ).
True, the word 'bandwidth' is used in different ways - every single CDN we've dealt with uses it for data transfer amounts though.
Yes, well, my figures are for raw bandwidth to our datacenters. It is not even redundant, it is up to us loadbalance and do failower/shaping etc. As an example, look into placing a container or even a rack in the Thor iceland datacenter, you will find that bandwidth then is even cheaper than my quote above.
I highly doubt that a streaming service would use a CDN, mainly because at those volumes it is so much cheaper to just buy raw internet connectivity and do your own peering deals.
As I mentioned, we are rather modest in a bandwidth usage perspective, but we can still do deals with a lot of providers (and "providers" like facebook and google etc) for peering.
On February 01 2013 22:39 phil.ipp wrote: @cost2010: very good said. i feel there are a lot of really young people on this board. so knowlegde like that can not be assumed.
Then why are they pretending to have knowledge on the subject?
On February 01 2013 22:39 phil.ipp wrote: @cost2010: very good said. i feel there are a lot of really young people on this board. so knowlegde like that can not be assumed.
Then why are they pretending to have knowledge on the subject?
Nice of them to stick around for as long as possible without paying the streamers to see how much cash they could milk before running off.
I bet if the unpaid streamer thing didn't come up yet, they would have waited longer before closing. Hate the fact that the scumbag manager prolly managed to make decent money before running off. Still hoping someone would've sued his ass into the ground. All those goddamn lies to the streamers and players.
So glad they are gone. I'm excited for a new company to take up the challenge instead
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