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On January 30 2013 15:56 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 22:05 RodrigoX wrote:
Their departing statement seemed really disrespectful and it's even worse that it's being shown that not only are they lying about the reasons for closing the sc2 division but also mis=-treated players and then on top of all that their manager is a dirtbag. Well time to boycott vvv gaming in the continued fight against asshole business men. I just hope no one good gets caught in the cross fire or get's anything unjust ala destiny. I hate to be the disrespective, capitalist "dickhole" around here guys...but that is life. As a 30 year old in the finance world, this is reality. Is it fair? Can it be disrepectful? Hell yes. But it comes down to money and I honestly think anyone who thinks they have a career long term (meaning 5-10+) years in the gaming world should have a plan. Look at InControl. He is obviously not the best gamer in EG but he markets himself, has a English degree, and can easily transition out of being a player into casting (EG or no EG). There are too many people bashing vVv when it is a business decision; weather or not you think it was tactful is a different conversation - talk to their PR/Intercompany relations manager. But playing video games for a living is high level risk; many should learn to acknowledge that fact.
Whilst I agree that it is a business decision that vVv has done this, but I think a lot of people (including the players of vVv) are criticising the actual business decisions. It doesn't even matter that it's "life" as you say. Contradicting business decisions and orphaned areas of business are always a heated topic for the people who are directly affected by them.
Why would they go ahead and get a player on their so called "sponsored" team, and then drop the entire SC2 division no longer than a month later? That's not "life". That's ridiculous and idiotic business management.
For once, the TL and reddit community are complaining at the RIGHT thing, and that is that stupid business decisions that only fuck over the players is BAD and should be heavily criticised. Not only that, but then the vVv manager comes out and burns even more bridges by saying (to paraphrase) "sc2 is no good. we should have closed our division earlier".
That's not what good management looks like. That's not even "life". I don't even know ANY business that would close a division of their business and then tell their soon to be redundant employees that they should have been out of a job sooner.
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On January 30 2013 16:20 Mirosuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 15:56 SirPinky wrote:On January 29 2013 22:05 RodrigoX wrote:
Their departing statement seemed really disrespectful and it's even worse that it's being shown that not only are they lying about the reasons for closing the sc2 division but also mis=-treated players and then on top of all that their manager is a dirtbag. Well time to boycott vvv gaming in the continued fight against asshole business men. I just hope no one good gets caught in the cross fire or get's anything unjust ala destiny. I hate to be the disrespective, capitalist "dickhole" around here guys...but that is life. As a 30 year old in the finance world, this is reality. Is it fair? Can it be disrepectful? Hell yes. But it comes down to money and I honestly think anyone who thinks they have a career long term (meaning 5-10+) years in the gaming world should have a plan. Look at InControl. He is obviously not the best gamer in EG but he markets himself, has a English degree, and can easily transition out of being a player into casting (EG or no EG). There are too many people bashing vVv when it is a business decision; weather or not you think it was tactful is a different conversation - talk to their PR/Intercompany relations manager. But playing video games for a living is high level risk; many should learn to acknowledge that fact. Whilst I agree that it is a business decision that vVv has done this, but I think a lot of people (including the players of vVv) are criticising the actual business decisions. It doesn't even matter that it's "life" as you say. Contradicting business decisions and orphaned areas of business are always a heated topic for the people who are directly affected by them. Why would they go ahead and get a player on their so called "sponsored" team, and then drop the entire SC2 division no longer than a month later? That's not "life". That's ridiculous and idiotic business management. For once, the TL and reddit community are complaining at the RIGHT thing, and that is that stupid business decisions that only fuck over the players is BAD and should be heavily criticised. Not only that, but then the vVv manager comes out and burns even more bridges by saying (to paraphrase) "sc2 is no good. we should have closed our division earlier". That's not what good management looks like. That's not even "life". I don't even know ANY business that would close a division of their business and then tell their soon to be redundant employees that they should have been out of a job sooner.
I think that's an issue of communication though. Unless I'm mistaken the person running the sc2 team and then the guy overseeing everything are two separate people. You can have your sc2 manager pick a player up while being left in the dark about the soon-to-be dismantled team. I'm not saying this is what happened but nobody has really come forward and explained it very well. Either way goodbye vVv I knew Treva and several of the people he went to high school with. Awesome group of guys.
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Used to be on the academy team. never did like the management... Peace out.
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Who is VVV? Never heard about them...
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On January 30 2013 16:29 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 16:20 Mirosuu wrote:On January 30 2013 15:56 SirPinky wrote:On January 29 2013 22:05 RodrigoX wrote:
Their departing statement seemed really disrespectful and it's even worse that it's being shown that not only are they lying about the reasons for closing the sc2 division but also mis=-treated players and then on top of all that their manager is a dirtbag. Well time to boycott vvv gaming in the continued fight against asshole business men. I just hope no one good gets caught in the cross fire or get's anything unjust ala destiny. I hate to be the disrespective, capitalist "dickhole" around here guys...but that is life. As a 30 year old in the finance world, this is reality. Is it fair? Can it be disrepectful? Hell yes. But it comes down to money and I honestly think anyone who thinks they have a career long term (meaning 5-10+) years in the gaming world should have a plan. Look at InControl. He is obviously not the best gamer in EG but he markets himself, has a English degree, and can easily transition out of being a player into casting (EG or no EG). There are too many people bashing vVv when it is a business decision; weather or not you think it was tactful is a different conversation - talk to their PR/Intercompany relations manager. But playing video games for a living is high level risk; many should learn to acknowledge that fact. Whilst I agree that it is a business decision that vVv has done this, but I think a lot of people (including the players of vVv) are criticising the actual business decisions. It doesn't even matter that it's "life" as you say. Contradicting business decisions and orphaned areas of business are always a heated topic for the people who are directly affected by them. Why would they go ahead and get a player on their so called "sponsored" team, and then drop the entire SC2 division no longer than a month later? That's not "life". That's ridiculous and idiotic business management. For once, the TL and reddit community are complaining at the RIGHT thing, and that is that stupid business decisions that only fuck over the players is BAD and should be heavily criticised. Not only that, but then the vVv manager comes out and burns even more bridges by saying (to paraphrase) "sc2 is no good. we should have closed our division earlier". That's not what good management looks like. That's not even "life". I don't even know ANY business that would close a division of their business and then tell their soon to be redundant employees that they should have been out of a job sooner. I think that's an issue of communication though. Unless I'm mistaken the person running the sc2 team and then the guy overseeing everything are two separate people. You can have your sc2 manager pick a player up while being left in the dark about the soon-to-be dismantled team. I'm not saying this is what happened but nobody has really come forward and explained it very well. Either way goodbye vVv I knew Treva and several of the people he went to high school with. Awesome group of guys.
Even if you were to say that all these promises are just rumors and aren't actually true. Why would they not make a statement like every well run team and simply leave it at "vVv and Sc2 division mutually part ways"? The team members seemed to be willing to not complain publicly about their issues with the management but then vVv apparently decided that they didn't care if they pissed the players off or not. If the case was that vVv was totally in the right , they never lied about anything, why would they make statements that seem to intentionally burn bridges? We've seen teams in the past have players that clearly deserved to be kicked for their actions still make statements that completely ignore any drama to avoid looking like the bad guy.The statements in themselves regardless of whether allegations are true or not suggest that the management of the team has no idea what they are doing. The worst part of this is really that now they can continue pulling this shit in a bunch of other games.
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It is really eye-opening when someone whose interests are not invested in just the company speaks out with, what often can be, the truth. Thanks for the post! Great read!
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On January 30 2013 02:22 Zennith wrote:Post from LordJerith: Show nested quote +Watching this saddens me. A decision has been made. One that I whole-heartedly support. Any organization has to set priorities. Doom and Rob made an unpopular decision. Good. I applaud their courage in looking long-term and being smart enough to focus on what they feel most passionate about. My view on this:
-vVv should have dropped sc2 sooner
-focus on your passions. Rob and Doom are clearly passionate about LoL, shootmania and CoD
-the negativity and response from the sc2 community is no suprise
- the outright lies from some people who were in vVv, although sad to see, is not worth a response
So, the sc2 community now hates vVv. This is expected. Some people don't like how they handled it. This is also expected. This is the kind of call that always upsets people. Aspire left, they close.d the division. If it's important to stress that Aspire left, ok, consider it so stressed, lol.
The good news is vVv will benefit from Rob and Doom making tough calls, focusing the organization and supporting team titles like LoL, Shootmania and CoD. MICHS and FIFA also. I know they have great plans for 2013. This all will pass. The world moves on. Be kind to one another. Think before you post. Onward! He's just so full of himself, I've hated this guy since I first heard him talk, and he just can't admit or even believe that he or vVv could do anything wrong. Kinda hilarious and also sad for those who work under him. Also, I want to note - he notes that Aspire left, but praises his staff for making the tough call? Was it a tough call really to close a division that no longer had any players?
LOL. So... The SC2 community produces mindless hate without a reason, just what he would expect. The whole SC2 division comes up with a very deliberate lie to blame vVv for some reason, again, just what he would expect. Wait... What LOL?? Since when does that happen? Every time I see someone leaving a team, it's either "leaving on good terms, best of luck", "no comment" or timid comments about things that everybody would be upset about. The fact that he comes up with shitty obvious lies to obfuscate the truth is so pathetic that I'm puzzled by the fact that it doesn't really surprise me.
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On January 30 2013 02:04 pb.fcnz wrote:
MLG was nothing until SC2...
While MLG was squandering venture capital giving emotional payouts (ie Sundance <3's Halo and ran MLG at a loss for years paying for players in a game that brought in no money), CS 1.6 and Q3 were featured in 95% of FPS tournaments and handing out 20000000000x more cash than MLG could dream of at the time.
While people like Jerith might not like history lessons, because they might contradict their "facts" and his twisted vision of "esports", back when MLG focused on consoles, CPL, WCG, ESWC, WEG, were the only names that mattered in FPS.
And then for a good laugh you'd youtube a clip of some 14 year old trying pathetically to aim with a joystick taking like 3 seconds to get his xhair on someone in halo or some shitty rainbow six XBOX title on MLG.
Sure, more people game on consoles than on pc's at the moment, but more people also believe in the bible than there are atheists. Does that excuse them for being dumb? Not in my opinion.
You are wrong on this on so many levels. MLG has "squandered" a ton of money on SC2 in the past year. A prime example are the 3(the first one was small in scale) arena events. Right now RT airfare(for korea) booking a month in advance is going for 1039$. Round that down and say they flew in 25 players from overseas plus the 7 others you are looking at 30-32k on flights. Add on room and food for at the very least 32 players in NYC another 10k. Add on the prize pool of 27k. So right here you are at 67-69k and then you also have personalities such as Tastosis, Wheat, Simpson casting the event. Lets pretend they each get paid 5k for their services. 87-89k on this event alone. And this is a very very low estimate.
Their only source of revenue on this event was advertisement money and the money from PPV. Which if you recall had massive pitchforks raised as there was no "free stream" option.
At the end of the day there are really great gaming teams/organizations out there who have niche areas of expertise. Some like EG and Complexity can do well in various markets of esports simultaneously and others such as vVv can not. Yea you might not like the management of some of the teams but at least they are attempting to branch out and try something new.
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seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two)
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I honestly didnt even know vVv was a serious pro team with sponsors and stuff. I thought it was like a amateur clan filled with some good NA players. Sad to hear the management quit on them.
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On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two)
Lol the only two I knew of were Time and Murder. Yep, old school.
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On January 30 2013 15:56 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 22:05 RodrigoX wrote:
Their departing statement seemed really disrespectful and it's even worse that it's being shown that not only are they lying about the reasons for closing the sc2 division but also mis=-treated players and then on top of all that their manager is a dirtbag. Well time to boycott vvv gaming in the continued fight against asshole business men. I just hope no one good gets caught in the cross fire or get's anything unjust ala destiny. I hate to be the disrespective, capitalist "dickhole" around here guys...but that is life. As a 30 year old in the finance world, this is reality. Is it unfair? Can it be disrepectful? Hell yes. But it comes down to money and I honestly think anyone who thinks they have a career long term (meaning 5-10+) years in the gaming world should have a plan. Look at InControl. He is obviously not the best gamer in EG but he markets himself, has a English degree, and can easily transition out of being a player into casting (EG or no EG). There are too many people bashing vVv when it is a business decision; weather or not you think it was tactful is a different conversation - talk to their PR/Intercompany relations manager. But playing video games for a living is high level risk; many should learn to acknowledge that fact.
OK time to dispel things once and for all. NO ONE is disputing that vVv dropped their SC2 division - TBH, they aren't important in SC2 in terms of investment. At all.
What IS being bashed is the following:
-Mistreatment of players
-Lying to sponsored players, then covering up
-Lying to Aspire people about coordinating a thread about leaving. Aspire (vVv's old academy) LEFT, they did NOT get "released." (A similar thing happened to me. I LEFT vVv gaming, I did not "graduate.")
-Threatening players that may potentially speak out against all of this
Perhaps ^ should be edited into the OP.
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On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two)
Why do you feel the need to post this here? I'm no fan of vVv and yea, most people probably can't name anyone on their team... but this just makes you look petty...
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I've got to agree with CatZ. This doesn't deserve to be featured next to other articles that a lot of people actually care about. This thread would barely get noticed if not for the drama surrounding it.
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Yeah I agree why would a starcraft news site post the announcement of the closing of a team that has been around for a while as " community news".
IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE.
On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two)
Its under "community news" not "featured news".
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On January 29 2013 22:01 derpface wrote:
vVv and VT, I dont even know what those teams are. Think we are better without them.
Its sad for the players. There exist a whole tier of gaming clubs that aren't mainstream.
You should look at GM's from time to time.
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On January 31 2013 10:50 PassiveAce wrote:Yeah I agree why would a starcraft news site post the announcement of the closing of a team that has been around for a while as " community news". IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two) Its under "community news" not "featured news".
that's what I ment, TL written/edited articles get featured news, rest can only get community news. and thereason it shouldn't be under community news is because there are plenty of more important and relevant news that aren't.
This isn't to say that the bar should be set super high or anything, don't get me wrong, but vVv didn't have A SINGLE pro player, i'd dare say not a single GrandMaster player... so this is unprecedented. When Minigun, a Popular streamer with a large following, #1 GM on NA switched from coL to ROOT, two of the largest teams in terms of following and fanbase, it was NOT on commmunity news. I didn't care too much because its not gigantic news, to a certain degree it was expected and Minigun's kind of always probably been percieved like more ROOT than coL. But regardless, that is a streamer that peaks at 1500 viewers, and is arguably the best protoss in NA, hitting #1 multiple times a season. Which brings me back to my question, name one vVv player, let alone progamer or even high masters/competitive.
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On January 31 2013 20:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 10:50 PassiveAce wrote:Yeah I agree why would a starcraft news site post the announcement of the closing of a team that has been around for a while as " community news". IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE. On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two) Its under "community news" not "featured news". that's what I ment, TL written/edited articles get featured news, rest can only get community news. and thereason it shouldn't be under community news is because there are plenty of more important and relevant news that aren't. This isn't to say that the bar should be set super high or anything, don't get me wrong, but vVv didn't have A SINGLE pro player, i'd dare say not a single GrandMaster player... so this is unprecedented. When Minigun, a Popular streamer with a large following, #1 GM on NA switched from coL to ROOT, two of the largest teams in terms of following and fanbase, it was NOT on commmunity news. I didn't care too much because its not gigantic news, to a certain degree it was expected and Minigun's kind of always probably been percieved like more ROOT than coL. But regardless, that is a streamer that peaks at 1500 viewers, and is arguably the best protoss in NA, hitting #1 multiple times a season. Which brings me back to my question, name one vVv player, let alone progamer or even high masters/competitive.
Shouldn't we be happy that the bar was lowered then? When we signed Sting, even though he was a TSL4 semifinalist, it didn't make the cut either. Personally I think Minigun's news should've made the cut. I'd rather see a few items I'm not that interested about than see important ones like mini/sting get missed. I was really thankful for their recent choices and would hate for them to get scolded for being more proactive and accepting. But this isn't really the place to discuss policy I imagine.
If you see this as a developing story, first vVv drops their pro roster recently and now their academy team chooses to leave, it's still meaningful.
Ah, I should mention, I orchestrated the morrow announcement the other week and that was picked up, so that's one of the recent choices I'm hinting at and blatantly biased about.
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On January 31 2013 20:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 10:50 PassiveAce wrote:Yeah I agree why would a starcraft news site post the announcement of the closing of a team that has been around for a while as " community news". IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE. On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two) Its under "community news" not "featured news". that's what I ment, TL written/edited articles get featured news, rest can only get community news. and thereason it shouldn't be under community news is because there are plenty of more important and relevant news that aren't. This isn't to say that the bar should be set super high or anything, don't get me wrong, but vVv didn't have A SINGLE pro player, i'd dare say not a single GrandMaster player... so this is unprecedented. When Minigun, a Popular streamer with a large following, #1 GM on NA switched from coL to ROOT, two of the largest teams in terms of following and fanbase, it was NOT on commmunity news. I didn't care too much because its not gigantic news, to a certain degree it was expected and Minigun's kind of always probably been percieved like more ROOT than coL. But regardless, that is a streamer that peaks at 1500 viewers, and is arguably the best protoss in NA, hitting #1 multiple times a season. Which brings me back to my question, name one vVv player, let alone progamer or even high masters/competitive.
So because there was only 1 real competitive player on the roster at the time, this news should just be forgotten and teams can continue to screw over players while most people don't even know that it's going on? Now I know most people here know about vVv and their history so maybe this particular news is not that important but in general I think news like this should be featured. vVv is one of the more known brands in the NA scene and it's best for the SC2 scene as a whole for people to know about problems such as this so upcoming players don't make the same mistake and waste their time with them. Granted I was also apart of this Aspire team that decided to leave so maybe I'm slightly biased here but IMO news of any team that's some what of a known brand screwing over players needs to be featured. Think about all upcoming players, maybe 1-2 years down the line they could be at a #1 GM level and placing well in tournaments but maybe they never got there because smaller teams they joined while they were still upcoming kept screwing them over and over again, they didn't provide the resources they promised and wasted their time while passing up on other team offers that may have been more helpful. That's why news like this should be featured.
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On January 31 2013 21:16 LuNa. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 20:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:On January 31 2013 10:50 PassiveAce wrote:Yeah I agree why would a starcraft news site post the announcement of the closing of a team that has been around for a while as " community news". IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE. On January 31 2013 03:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:
seriously why is this under featured news? No offense to the squad's dedication but vVv doesn't deserve any spotlight and this is hardly relevant to most people, I'd be surprised if half the people who have to read this can name one vVv player. (RuFF and Glon left a while ago in case you were thinking one of those two) Its under "community news" not "featured news". that's what I ment, TL written/edited articles get featured news, rest can only get community news. and thereason it shouldn't be under community news is because there are plenty of more important and relevant news that aren't. This isn't to say that the bar should be set super high or anything, don't get me wrong, but vVv didn't have A SINGLE pro player, i'd dare say not a single GrandMaster player... so this is unprecedented. When Minigun, a Popular streamer with a large following, #1 GM on NA switched from coL to ROOT, two of the largest teams in terms of following and fanbase, it was NOT on commmunity news. I didn't care too much because its not gigantic news, to a certain degree it was expected and Minigun's kind of always probably been percieved like more ROOT than coL. But regardless, that is a streamer that peaks at 1500 viewers, and is arguably the best protoss in NA, hitting #1 multiple times a season. Which brings me back to my question, name one vVv player, let alone progamer or even high masters/competitive. So because there was only 1 real competitive player on the roster at the time, this news should just be forgotten and teams can continue to screw over players while most people don't even know that it's going on? Now I know most people here know about vVv and their history so maybe this particular news is not that important but in general I think news like this should be featured. vVv is one of the more known brands in the NA scene and it's best for the SC2 scene as a whole for people to know about problems such as this so upcoming players don't make the same mistake and waste their time with them. Granted I was also apart of this Aspire team that decided to leave so maybe I'm slightly biased here but IMO news of any team that's some what of a known brand screwing over players needs to be featured. Think about all upcoming players, maybe 1-2 years down the line they could be at a #1 GM level and placing well in tournaments but maybe they never got there because smaller teams they joined while they were still upcoming kept screwing them over and over again, they didn't provide the resources they promised and wasted their time while passing up on other team offers that may have been more helpful. That's why news like this should be featured.
I'd say he hardly means it should be forgotten. If I noticed it under starcraft 2 general I'd still have read it and I'm sure others with me. We're still developing esports and cautionary tales are important, we need to cut down incompetence without mercy. On the other hand, traditionally TL is very conservative about what they consider community news, so looking back there's probably several stories that are even more worthwhile. That's all, I wouldn't read too much into it. Everyone got the message about vVv I'm sure.
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EPT
