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On January 16 2013 22:22 bittman wrote:
1) Best of 1
2) Snipers
3) Maps
4) Proximity of the top level of competition
5) How well player does on the day
People always think 5 isn't a thing. Like a player's skill rises or falls as opposed to players just having a fantastic day vs a terrible day. I mean Yonghwa fails to get into Code A every day of his life and then proceeds to become WCG KR champion against far harder competition. Still a bracket tournament. Maps basically the same. He just did better on the given day.
Anyway, it's still notably early days of proleague. And the only Code S mainstay listed (Taeja) has been on a downturn. Injury related I believe. But still.
The sweet sound of a well thought out answer. Pretty much this. 4 and 5 being are points of great importance that sometimes people forget about.
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I'd definitly see an link to the maps that are used in Proleague.
Eventhough I like to see BW Maps in SCII tournaments the choices aren't quite....comprehensible.
Arkanoid was already quite imbalanced in BW, and had an even worse start in SCII in my opinion.
I like Neo Bifröst as far as conception goes, but it really doesn't fit the BO1 format, since it often times leads to chees fest and increases the variety to an insane amount.
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Proleague was bo1 where you only play one opponent for a long time. You do not need to be the better player mechanics wise. If you have a really smart strategy that can surprise your opponent tailored to the map you are playing on, you take the game.
In GSL, you have to play multiple games against multiple opponents (up and down and code s), there you cannot do that.
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On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying  Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
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The truly skilled players are able to adapt to playing one map vs each person, and getting sniped. Other specific korean players are skilled in preparing for one match. Two different skills, both important.
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It is also interesting that the KeSPA players were so much better in the OSL than in the GSL.
One important reason why I don't think they care very much for GSL is that it seems to have no exposure in Korea. Everytime I see a KeSPA player in the Gom studio he has more fans than the eSF players. Why? PL and OSL are on national television. This should mean a lot to the sponsors and thus to the teams.
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On January 17 2013 02:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges. Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about. I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player. I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them? Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub? Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament. Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL? Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time,
Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
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On January 17 2013 02:43 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges. Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about. Did I take things out of context? I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player. I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them? Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub? Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament. Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL? Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges. bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
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As basically every logical person has said, they're completely different. To compare the two with literally not even a glance at formatting is just hilariously shit of the OP.
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On January 17 2013 02:46 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:43 mongmong wrote:On January 17 2013 02:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges. Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about. Did I take things out of context? I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player. I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them? Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub? Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament. Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL? Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges. bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation. Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
Liquid Sea?
He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in
individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great
proleague player? I doubt it ^^
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Because proleague is tougher that's all.
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In sc2 the best player will not always win. a really good player will have a 60% chance to win vs a mediocre player. That meens the mediocre player can still 3-0 the really good player.
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ProLeague is always going to have more upsets than GSL. Simply because if you lose a BO1 in ProLeague you are out. It is obviously easier for a lesser player to beat a better player over a Bo1 than a Bo3 and so upsets happen more frequently in a Bo1.
Similarly a Bo5 will have less upsets than a Bo3.
For an analogy with another sport, I could probably win a point of Tennis against Federer but I would not win a Set.
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On January 17 2013 02:54 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:46 Elroi wrote:On January 17 2013 02:43 mongmong wrote:On January 17 2013 02:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges. Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about. Did I take things out of context? I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player. I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them? Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub? Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament. Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL? Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges. bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation. Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times. Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^
You are only pushing you agenda here. Sea was a very strong player. Some seasons he was exceptional in PL. But he never had any real success in individual leagues and he was most of the time only a strong player in PL, not unlike Light, Firebathero or Midas etc.
My point is that both count, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either way.
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Taeja would have a higher ELO if the crazy EGTL coach used him more often, especially over JYP for ace matches/last man for winners league.
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In my view the argument that different formats and maps are causing these diversing results is way overrated in this thread. The most important reason is the volatility and the 'relative' skill cap of the game which leads to an insanely tight level of competition between the top pro's. This way it is very very hard to set yourself far ahead of the others skillwise, especially in comparision to BW.
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I honestly think that the biggest factor is that code S players have vods out there which can be studied by kespa players. Especially in a BO1 format, they get sniped or hard countered a hell lot more.
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On January 17 2013 03:09 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:54 mongmong wrote:On January 17 2013 02:46 Elroi wrote:On January 17 2013 02:43 mongmong wrote:On January 17 2013 02:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 17 2013 00:28 starfinder wrote:On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges? Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse. Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match. They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges. Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about. Did I take things out of context? I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player. I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them? Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub? Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament. Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL? Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges. bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation. Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times. Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^ You are only pushing you agenda here. Sea was a very strong player. Some seasons he was exceptional in PL. But he never had any real success in individual leagues and he was most of the time only a strong player in PL, not unlike Light, Firebathero or Midas etc. My point is that both count, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either way.
You made a very good point there genius, Sea never had any real success in individual leagues hence he is not remembered as one of the best players. I'll give you the list of best progamers of all time: iloov, Savior, Flash, Reach
Jaedong, bisu, Stork, Nada, Boxer, July. Not single one of them would be remembered as one of the best if they hadnt had any success in individual leagues. Youre not gonna say Gumiho>>>>Mvp because Gumiho's team league results is better are you? lol
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Its a really dumb comparison to be honest.
bo1
preparation for gsl
Random team snipers
maps
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Their playstyles are being researched better than they can research the playstyles of their opponents.
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EPT
