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Austria24422 Posts
On January 16 2013 00:44 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 00:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 16 2013 00:13 Protosnake wrote:On January 16 2013 00:09 KOtical wrote:On January 16 2013 00:01 Protosnake wrote:
The only thing I see happening soon is protoss dominating Z even more now while terran are still helpless P dominating Z ??? ya maybe they got the very strong immortal push. but other than that prtotss got nothing on zerg... P cant take a third in most maps so they need to make a 2 base push... idk where u can see P dominating Z?! In tournament, P is already statistically favored. "Other than immortal/sentry" is the argument every protoss try to make, but we're not outside immortal/sentry, it's a part of the game. I dont see IT not getting uprade as a big deal in TvZ, however this could just kill Z in PvZ Every air transition is now stronger for terran. And protoss too of course. Protoss kills zerg with immortal/sentry or pre hive all ins. Guess zergs just gonna have to get better and learn to prepare for it. Can't tell you how many times I've seen a zerg throw up a million panic spines, building 5 corruptors when protoss is already halfway across the map with 4 colossi. Good zergs have no problem vs protoss at any stage of the game. Unless they get outplayed super incredibly hard like Leenock did in his GSL series vs HerO. Bottom line? Leenock still won. That's why this nerf is coming. Maybe it'll fuck things up, maybe it won't. Give it some time to test it. If it's good we can talk about ways to stop immortal all ins. Air transition is stronger assuming that Zerg went +1 range, and outside of Stephano's having fun it's only in the case of Mech. "Good zerg having no problem vs Protoss at any stage of the game and winning even though they are outplayed" is, to be polite, your opinion : http://i.imgur.com/h2Z27.pngI'm not saying things are fine right now, I'm saying they are addressing the wrong issues, or heading in the wrong direction (Or it's probably just a band-aid until Hots come out)
That's possible and I too think that fungal is actually the problem in both PvZ and TvZ (even ZvZ) but I'll take what I can get for now, test it and then see if it helps or if it's not the right way to approach it.
There's actually quite a few zergs who are getting +1 range as well, I saw Life do it vs Marine/Tank as soon as he knew the game would go to later stages. I think doing something like "have fungal only stun light units" would be way better but this nerf was definitely needed too. Protoss still couldn't combat BL/infestor without this nerf. I'm thinking free units in general should not receive upgrades.
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They should have lowered the base damage of IT instead of removing upgrade altogether. So that while ITs still benefit from upgrades but the level 3 upgrade is the same or barely above of the current stat of IT.
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I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too.
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On January 16 2013 00:13 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 00:09 KOtical wrote:On January 16 2013 00:01 Protosnake wrote:
The only thing I see happening soon is protoss dominating Z even more now while terran are still helpless P dominating Z ??? ya maybe they got the very strong immortal push. but other than that prtotss got nothing on zerg... P cant take a third in most maps so they need to make a 2 base push... idk where u can see P dominating Z?! In tournament, P is already statistically favored. "Other than immortal/sentry" is the argument every protoss try to make, but we're not outside immortal/sentry, it's a part of the game. I dont see IT not getting uprade as a big deal in TvZ, however this could just kill Z in PvZ
Which tournament? GSL, the top tournament in the world has 5Ps out of 32 ...
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now let's hope they make some useful change in TvZ cause IT is not gonna fix that matchup...
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On January 15 2013 20:07 Finnz wrote:
the game needed a pvz patch tbh. Protoss cannot expand safely in this matchup without getting bombarded by a bunch of infested terrans, fungals and roaches with corrupter support. It was too hard for them to deal with so im happy about that change.
What i am not happy about is the fact the change really does not answer tvz. Fungal quite clearly is the biggest issue we have in the games design and balance flaws right now. Maybe blizzard are a bit worried about the infestor becoming too underpowered if they nerfed fungal? i don't really know but i doubt this is going to change tvz hardly at all.
this actually helps mech tvz significantly, i've died to infested terran bombs many times that melt your army instantly- this will weaken that a lot when you have armor upgrades rolling
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Austria24422 Posts
On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too.
Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps.
Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades.
I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see.
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Please continue to nerf this isn't the problem. Would like to see brood lords have more supply or cost because once you have 200/200 brood infestor only its impossible to win as Protoss unless you get the most lucky vortex.
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As an exclusively meching terran in that matchup, the IT nerf will help a lot.
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On January 16 2013 02:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too. Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps. Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades. I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see.
Explain the PvZ 53% match ratio (set ratio is a bit higher) of 2012 then, if its so easy for the Z.
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On January 16 2013 02:19 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too. Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps. Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades. I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see. Explain the PvZ 53% match ratio (set ratio is a bit higher) of 2012 then, if its so easy for the Z.
Explain why there's a million zergs and five Protoss in code s
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On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
i wouldnt worry too much, the option of broodlord infestor is still on the table. i think it will just move away from having 10 max broodlord and then 20-30 infestor to instead getting more broodlords and slightly less infestors
the main concept of broodlord infestor is still that fungal is damage output and locks the enemy in place while broodlords shield everything and deals damage from a far. infested terrans are not really a part of this concept except for adding in extra damage output that is theoretically not needed.
also one could argue infested terrans are great underneath the broodlords to prevent blinking in under broodlords being in-efficient but that shouldnt really happen in the first place if your careful in the beginning on the engagement making sure you get fungal off before the toss blinks in. the way toss counters it is by blinking in, blizzard probably felt like infested terrans punished that move too hard.
this nerf is pretty smart in my opinion, a straight damage nerf to IT would make them less useful even when your not massing infestors and just using some of them in midgame for timing attacks where as now that is still intact and still good. its just addressing the massive amounts of infested terrans to a point where its just ridiculous.
seeing 20-30 infestors late game has always been a silly thing and i think this patch is going to help that
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Austria24422 Posts
On January 16 2013 02:19 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too. Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps. Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades. I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see. Explain the PvZ 53% match ratio (set ratio is a bit higher) of 2012 then, if its so easy for the Z.
All ins pretty good! Show me a lategame stat, that's the relevant part here. I'm talking about the lategame specifically. There might be things to fix in the early/midgame but the lategame is the big concern in PvZ.
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On January 16 2013 02:19 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too. Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps. Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades. I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see. Explain the PvZ 53% match ratio (set ratio is a bit higher) of 2012 then, if its so easy for the Z.
If you are interested in the actual numbers (instead of some random number that you pulled out of your ass), the ratio is 51.89% for September through December , and for an assymetrical game like Starcraft 2, lies well within the acceptable balance, especially when you factor in player skill. On the other hand if I were a zerg, I would be more worried about incoming Infestor nerfs, considering the 59.7% imbalance in the ZvT matchup, which actually seems to be quite significant from a statistical viewpoint.
Edit: I just went back and checked the stats and ZvP is actually zerg favored for January to August and is just 1.9% Toss favored in September through December, so it seems that overall it was a Z favored matchup (8 month Zerg favored vs 4 month Toss favored). So you're very obviously lying in the hope that people wont call you out for posting wrong stats that suit your narrative.
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still need to limit the amount of ITs that 1 infestor can cast.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:30 Butterednuts wrote:
Ugh, I hate this nerf. As a Zerg player I would have liked them to nerf fungal growth before they removed the upgrades for infested terrans. Zerg anti-air is so weak already. Now our only real anti-air option (until HotS) is the corruptor and it takes so long to get that far into tech. I guess I'll just be making like 8 queens now.
Like you aren't going broods anyway :p
On January 16 2013 04:01 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:19 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On January 16 2013 02:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 16 2013 00:59 Innovation wrote:
I have two problems with the way Blizzard has been nerfing Infestor.
1) They say "we want to get away from zerg relying on mass infestor late game"
The reason we all rely on mass infestor is because with out it against toss we would simply destroyed by a death ball every game. Yes I agree infestor is too good but it's only because it's so good that we have a decent chance in the zvp matchup. Nerf infestor without giving us other options just seems really short sighted.
2) Using HOTS to test out changes to infestors (yes I know there was a very shortly used test map on WOL) is IMO a terrible idea. HOTS gives zerg more options in order to move away from infestors so of course it won't break the game to nerf infestor there but WOL gives zerg none of those options. Also HOTS infestor has longer range than WOL infestor if I'm not mistaken so using a different game to evaluate balance patches in another again seems like a bad idea.
At the very highest level of play yeah...maybe the top pro zergs can find a way to do well despite infestor nerfs but I think 99% of zergs out there are going to feel pretty helpless in some situations. I think it's similar to why Terran at the top levels of play (because of the high ceiling cap) is still very good but why it's been abandoned by just about every casual or semi-serious player out there. Unless you're ungodly skilled it's tough to keep up. They're just doing this to zerg now too. Engaging BL/infestor with protoss is incredibly difficult and requires near perfect micro. You need to move stalkers constantly while retargetting brood lords everytime so they don't target free units, feedback infestors, have enough energy to storm the ridiculous amounts of ITs that get thrown out, move archons under BLs while they're attacking other things, prevent infestors from catching them with fungal by feedbacking/storming clumped infestors. And that just describes a battle in an open field. Can't even do that properly on half the maps. Now what does zerg need to do? Target with brood lords, press F a few times and mass spam whatever key it is that spews out ITs. And protoss usually gets CRUSHED in head to head engagements with that unit composition unless you somehow survived long enough to get a carrier/HT army out with good upgrades. I don't think engagements will be too hard to handle for zerg but we'll see. Explain the PvZ 53% match ratio (set ratio is a bit higher) of 2012 then, if its so easy for the Z. If you are interested in the actual numbers (instead of some random number that you pulled out of your ass), the ratio is 51.89% for September through December , and for an assymetrical game like Starcraft 2, lies well within the acceptable balance, especially when you factor in player skill. On the other hand if I were a zerg, I would be more worried about incoming Infestor nerfs, considering the 59.7% imbalance in the ZvT matchup, which actually seems to be quite significant from a statistical viewpoint. Edit: I just went back and checked the stats and ZvP is actually zerg favored for January to August and is just 1.9% Toss favored in September through December, so it seems that overall it was a Z favored matchup (8 month Zerg favored vs 4 month Toss favored). So you're very obviously lying in the hope that people wont call you out for posting wrong stats that suit your narrative.
Regardless of the PvZ win ratio I would argue a lot of protoss wins are due to wonwonwon, if you were to take that out and look at the ratio you would understand the Z nerfs. The perfect game is not one which has a perfect win ratio, but one where it is equally viable for all races in all stages of the game, so what is affecting the win ratios is the skill of the players in each race.
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On January 16 2013 04:03 tuho12345 wrote:
still need to limit the amount of ITs that 1 infestor can cast.
That would be 8 maximum at any given time.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:20 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:03 tuho12345 wrote:
still need to limit the amount of ITs that 1 infestor can cast. That would be 8 maximum at any given time.
He means in their lifetime, similar to how Vultures worked.
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On January 16 2013 04:21 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:20 InfCereal wrote:On January 16 2013 04:03 tuho12345 wrote:
still need to limit the amount of ITs that 1 infestor can cast. That would be 8 maximum at any given time. He means in their lifetime, similar to how Vultures worked.
It's completely fine the way it is, now that IT will be very weak late game. There is no reason to limit the number per lifetime. Why can ravens shoot out infinite PD then? Anyway, based on the HOTS beta, infestors are no longer massable because of this nerf they just did. It is an excellent nerf which prevents infestors from not being massable. Un-massable infestors means that fungal is no longer as ridiculous (before you had 30 fungals at your disposal, you use one on a single marine and it doesn't matter. Compare that to HT, where you have 6 storms at your disposal, losing a single storm hurts so much).
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:26 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:21 Targe wrote:On January 16 2013 04:20 InfCereal wrote:On January 16 2013 04:03 tuho12345 wrote:
still need to limit the amount of ITs that 1 infestor can cast. That would be 8 maximum at any given time. He means in their lifetime, similar to how Vultures worked. It's completely fine the way it is, now that IT will be very weak late game. There is no reason to limit the number per lifetime. Why can ravens shoot out infinite PD then? Anyway, based on the HOTS beta, infestors are no longer massable because of this nerf they just did. It is an excellent nerf which prevents infestors from not being massable. Un-massable infestors means that fungal is no longer as ridiculous (before you had 30 fungals at your disposal, you use one on a single marine and it doesn't matter. Compare that to HT, where you have 6 storms at your disposal, losing a single storm hurts so much).
1. Infestors will still be massed.
2. Infestors without a cap on ITs can fungal, spew ITs to escape a situation then recharge energy. The whole idea of capping the number of ITs means that infestors cannot just stay alive and remain totally useful.
3. Don't compare a unit to a completely different unit, Infestors are not ravens, that mentality brings forth the same argument as this: brood lords and swarm hosts should have a cap on the number of broodthingies they can make.
4. ITs still do more damage than unstimmed +2 marines without their upgrades, why are ITs very weak?
<EDIT> forgot +2
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EPT
