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On January 09 2013 06:06 GregMandel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:50 lolmlg wrote:
I'm going to bypass all the really obvious reasons why e-sports aren't sports and hit on the one that nobody seems to want to admit.
Sports are not subject to cheese. In a sport there are only strategies. If a strategy could be thought of as unsportsmanlike, it is simply forbidden by the rules. All you have left at that point is a competition based on skill. But in a game like SC2, there are many scenarios where one player can be thought of as immediately at a disadvantage for reasons ultimately unrelated to their skill or preparation. "Juking your opponent with slick meta-mindgames" might be an impressive sounding euphemism for claiming a cheap win at any cost, but it doesn't change the essential nature of the act.
Not that the offending player is to blame for that act. He's just playing the game. But it precludes the game from being a sport. No longer a raw contest of skill, the exercise becomes a guessing game, regardless of how educated those guesses might be.
Think of it this way. In American Football, there is an emphasis on strategy, of trying to predict the moves of the opposite team and acting accordingly. That's fine. But have you seen the video of the team that suddenly stopped playing right after kickoff, walked around slowly acting confused, and then suddenly ran past their opponents into the end zone for some cheap and undeserved points? That's a cheese. And it simply doesn't have a place in any sport where something is on the line. You start by thinking cheesy play isn't fair, but cheesy play is an actual strategy. I don't like being cheesed but if someone 6 pools another person then why would you not give him the win ? There's just no reason for that and your point just isn't valid at all to me. I mean, you play by the rules, when I watch european football ( like, the real foot getting in contact with a real ball ya know :-p ) there's always players faking injuries, that would be cheesy play, and every spectator just disregards the guy because everyone knows it's made up, but you rarely ever see someone getting punished for that, because just like in starcraft, they're abusing the limits of the game, but they're still in their right
I think that's a really bad example. Faking an injury is in no way within the rules of the game. If after the game ended a footballer came out and said "Yeah I faked that." There would be an outrage and they would be severely punished.
But in Starcraft a player won't even lose respect after cheesing an opponent in an important match. Players who know their opponents strategies on a specific map can predict what is going to happen and set a "cheesy" play that they know will work. It's a risky strategy sure but by and large no one looks down on MVP when he does a proxy 2rax in the GSL finals.
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Of course esports isn't a sport. Sitting down playing a video game with no athleticism at all, with a talent pool that is microscopic, compared to real sports.
User was warned for this post
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On January 09 2013 06:00 Tuer wrote:
I have to disagree with this argument because traditional sports do in fact change. When you look at minor changes in recent years such as the addition of replay reviews to football or more major changes like with hockey changing rules to increase scoring and speed up the pace of the game, it's clear that even athletic sports evolve and change over time.
Wow, that's interesting, because you sound like you're agreeing with what I'm saying about traditional sports. I didn't say they don't change; what I said was that they don't get replaced multiple times in a generation by different games of the same genre. Hockey's rules are never changed to the extent of becoming figure-skating with toothpicks, or you wouldn't watch it, but we have to watch our eSports get dumbed down or reinvented every generation (some generations being shorter than others - ie: CoD vs SC). Trying to validate what you do as an athletic activity because of its similarities to actual athletic activities while ignoring the VAST differences is part of the problem with the argument that eSports are truly parallel to Sports.
Blizzard chose to wait over 10 years to make Starcraft 2. How long were we actually wanting it to happen? Why do we get a new NHL game every year for the same console as the one before it when depth chart updates would solve most of the obsolescence issues with the one before it? Why can I walk outside and play soccer with friends for cheaper (the cost of a ball) than I can play Starcraft 2 (the cost of clients + computers + internet connection(s)) with the same friends? How can you ignore the arguments which invalidate eSports as real Sports and simply identify them as money-making mechanisms with short-term appeal?
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On January 09 2013 06:16 decado90 wrote:
Of course esports isn't a sport. Sitting down playing a video game with no athleticism at all, with a talent pool that is microscopic, compared to real sports.
Please read the article.
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Nice post. although i'd disagree that e-sport is not a sport. we see now, more often than ever, perfect physiques in sports. perfect bodies, muscles, made and trained especially for sport X. when we look at, say basketball, every NBA players has the right physique for basketball, they all have passed trough playing non-stop as kids, and playing in college leagues etc. they all almost have the same sport backgrounds. then what makes the difference between regular NBA player and Kobe Bryant? physique( which is the main difference between, e-sport and sports) or mental strengh(consistancy, positive thinking), intelligence, talent (im not even discussing what talent really is). when we reach a state where, physique doesnt count anymore to break records, its all about intelligence. the MAIN human muscle is the BRAIN. sports and e-sport are the same. the best trained brain wins it.
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On January 09 2013 05:50 lolmlg wrote:
I'm going to bypass all the really obvious reasons why e-sports aren't sports and hit on the one that nobody seems to want to admit.
Sports are not subject to cheese. In a sport there are only strategies. If a strategy could be thought of as unsportsmanlike, it is simply forbidden by the rules. All you have left at that point is a competition based on skill. But in a game like SC2, there are many scenarios where one player can be thought of as immediately at a disadvantage for reasons ultimately unrelated to their skill or preparation. "Juking your opponent with slick meta-mindgames" might be an impressive sounding euphemism for claiming a cheap win at any cost, but it doesn't change the essential nature of the act.
Not that the offending player is to blame for that act. He's just playing the game. But it precludes the game from being a sport. No longer a raw contest of skill, the exercise becomes a guessing game, regardless of how educated those guesses might be.
Think of it this way. In American Football, there is an emphasis on strategy, of trying to predict the moves of the opposite team and acting accordingly. That's fine. But have you seen the video of the team that suddenly stopped playing right after kickoff, walked around slowly acting confused, and then suddenly ran past their opponents into the end zone for some cheap and undeserved points? That's a cheese. And it simply doesn't have a place in any sport where something is on the line.
I think you don't know enough about the sports you're talking about. There's some pretty greasy plays in american football, same as hockey, same as SC2.
Hell, there's more cheese in hockey than LoL when I think about it.
I can write more about that later, for now, lets call "cheese" a high risk high reward non-standard play.
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On January 09 2013 06:13 Dujek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 06:06 GregMandel wrote:On January 09 2013 05:50 lolmlg wrote:
I'm going to bypass all the really obvious reasons why e-sports aren't sports and hit on the one that nobody seems to want to admit.
Sports are not subject to cheese. In a sport there are only strategies. If a strategy could be thought of as unsportsmanlike, it is simply forbidden by the rules. All you have left at that point is a competition based on skill. But in a game like SC2, there are many scenarios where one player can be thought of as immediately at a disadvantage for reasons ultimately unrelated to their skill or preparation. "Juking your opponent with slick meta-mindgames" might be an impressive sounding euphemism for claiming a cheap win at any cost, but it doesn't change the essential nature of the act.
Not that the offending player is to blame for that act. He's just playing the game. But it precludes the game from being a sport. No longer a raw contest of skill, the exercise becomes a guessing game, regardless of how educated those guesses might be.
Think of it this way. In American Football, there is an emphasis on strategy, of trying to predict the moves of the opposite team and acting accordingly. That's fine. But have you seen the video of the team that suddenly stopped playing right after kickoff, walked around slowly acting confused, and then suddenly ran past their opponents into the end zone for some cheap and undeserved points? That's a cheese. And it simply doesn't have a place in any sport where something is on the line. You start by thinking cheesy play isn't fair, but cheesy play is an actual strategy. I don't like being cheesed but if someone 6 pools another person then why would you not give him the win ? There's just no reason for that and your point just isn't valid at all to me. I mean, you play by the rules, when I watch european football ( like, the real foot getting in contact with a real ball ya know :-p ) there's always players faking injuries, that would be cheesy play, and every spectator just disregards the guy because everyone knows it's made up, but you rarely ever see someone getting punished for that, because just like in starcraft, they're abusing the limits of the game, but they're still in their right I think that's a really bad example. Faking an injury is in no way within the rules of the game. If after the game ended a footballer came out and said "Yeah I faked that." There would be an outrage and they would be severely punished. But in Starcraft a player won't even lose respect after cheesing an opponent in an important match. Players who know their opponents strategies on a specific map can predict what is going to happen and set a "cheesy" play that they know will work. It's a risky strategy sure but by and large no one looks down on MVP when he does a proxy 2rax in the GSL finals.
Yeah my example was probably terrible, I wanted to talk about handball or rugby but no-one on TL probably know about those sports ( I mean rugby is ok in europe and handball pretty much also except in UK I do believe ), so yeah that's more because I got carried away because of how shocked I was by his argument, maaaaaah bad :D
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what happens if somebody clicks reply as soon as this goes up and posts something as fast as they can and they get a post in between the OP and the credits?
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On January 09 2013 06:52 snively wrote:
what happens if somebody clicks reply as soon as this goes up and posts something as fast as they can and they get a post in between the OP and the credits?
umm the make a post that's irrelevant b/c they didn't read the OP?
But it shouldn't matter b/c that didn't happen anyways
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Not quite convinced by the athletes argument.
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On January 09 2013 05:50 lolmlg wrote:
I'm going to bypass all the really obvious reasons why e-sports aren't sports and hit on the one that nobody seems to want to admit.
Sports are not subject to cheese. In a sport there are only strategies. If a strategy could be thought of as unsportsmanlike, it is simply forbidden by the rules. All you have left at that point is a competition based on skill. But in a game like SC2, there are many scenarios where one player can be thought of as immediately at a disadvantage for reasons ultimately unrelated to their skill or preparation. "Juking your opponent with slick meta-mindgames" might be an impressive sounding euphemism for claiming a cheap win at any cost, but it doesn't change the essential nature of the act.
Not that the offending player is to blame for that act. He's just playing the game. But it precludes the game from being a sport. No longer a raw contest of skill, the exercise becomes a guessing game, regardless of how educated those guesses might be.
Think of it this way. In American Football, there is an emphasis on strategy, of trying to predict the moves of the opposite team and acting accordingly. That's fine. But have you seen the video of the team that suddenly stopped playing right after kickoff, walked around slowly acting confused, and then suddenly ran past their opponents into the end zone for some cheap and undeserved points? That's a cheese. And it simply doesn't have a place in any sport where something is on the line.
uh... this exists in sports, try basketball for example where if its a close game the team that is behind will continually foul the worst free throw shooter to try and get possession and make up the couple of lost points. If there is cheese in sc2 ... certainly exists in sports too.
what i mean is if there is only strategies in sports its the same with video games as e-sports..
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Disagree, anything with a timer and winner & loser outcome is a sport, I personally know people who can't handle sc2 just because its too competitive and they never competed in anything in their life so why start now?
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Pretty good article, but it's sometimes difficult to follow your train of thought. You start off by saying comparing Esports to traditional sports is a bad model but then directly compare E-Athletes to traditional athletes as a means of justifying Esports? Based on your replies it seems you feel that Esports is a legitimate sport? While I agree to an extent, there are several large factors that I believe separate Esports from mainstream sports.
Mainly, the "spectacle" of Esports is severely lackluster in the context of our society. An average person watching SC2 for the first time will most likely be more confused that awed. With any given traditional sport the physical strain, ability and effort of the athletes is immediately apparent. You don't have to have attempted a dunk to know that it is an incredible feat of athleticism. Even if you've never played football in your life, a bicycle kick goal is going to get you out of your chair. Watching the combination of insane speed, power and strength in the NHL can be appreciated even by those who have never stepped in a rink.
SC2 is not like this at all. To a bystander there is nothing inherently impressive about watching someone move their fingers really fast. People are more likely to discount it as button mashing until they are more familiar with the sport. This is one of the chief reasons why SC2 will most likely never progress from being a niche Esport.
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On January 09 2013 05:45 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +So why isn’t E-Sports a sport? You have the athletes, you have the mimicked atmosphere (just on a smaller scale), what prevents it from being that of sports? Because the game changes. The core game mechanics improve, change, and are bias towards one side or another. In StarCraft, you have three asymmetrical races that have their pros and cons, in ARTS games such as Dota, you have a multitude of heros that interact with one another differently. For FPS games, a variety of guns also means countless approaches towards taking down your opponent. These varied factors help keep the game fresh, new and entertaining. It displays unlimited possibilities that surpass that of sports on a basic ruled level. Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that the variety of the game and the flexible nature of the software (updates) leads to variations that are not present in traditional sports? TBH I think the argument is not even worth having, since we can have the exact same discussion about traditional sports. The discussion is interesting though since it makes people think more about the game and competitive scene.
Yes, I am saying that E-Sports can be built and branched to accomodate all forms of audiences (so long as it follows the three rules listed in my previous article[s]).
Traditional sports can't, but reinvent themselves in other forms and ways.
On January 09 2013 05:50 myBattleship wrote:
"Because video-game(s) can change so much, be improved and become visually stunning, the possibilities to innovate it makes it better than mainstream sports."
is more of an opinion than fact. maybe you think it makes it better than mainstream sports. But that's not by definition so. Besides, there are arguments to be made that the mainstream sports are made better because you see the athlete performing certain task or showcasing certain skill himself, without any kind of peripheral (keyboard/mouse). When you see someone do a 100m sprint, you can appreciate the winner's effort. Where's starcraft is still somewhat of a faceless sport. Yeah you see guys in booths playing the game, but you aren't watching them play (as in looking at their fingers on the mouse/keyboard), you're watching the in-game screen which is not as appealing as watching the actual physical performance of an athlete.
Either way, I still like starcraft and all other competitive games. But I don't think one form of "sport" is better than the other.
As stated before, both have their flaws and advantages
On January 09 2013 05:50 Zealos wrote:
Nothing much to add to this discussion, but I would just like to say that this is awesome stuff you're doing, and I enjoy reading each one. Keep it up !
Thanks!
On January 09 2013 06:00 Tuer wrote:
I have to disagree with this argument because traditional sports do in fact change. When you look at minor changes in recent years such as the addition of replay reviews to football or more major changes like with hockey changing rules to increase scoring and speed up the pace of the game, it's clear that even athletic sports evolve and change over time.
These are not equals. I don't disagree that both games evolve, but I would say more that the ability to select more than 7-8 units to almost an unlimited amount is equal to a change of the rules or new technology to facilitate certain strategies (or issues).
Adding an additional unique unit/player into the game that has a new role and ability is definitely changing the game more than new rules. I feel rules are more preventive than beneficial for a game's evolution. It just pushes the game to see new strategies within the confines of what's legal. For video-games, throw a new unit into the mix changes everything (or so it is intended).
On January 09 2013 06:08 Dujek wrote:
Starcraft, LoL and DotA are constantly changing. But will that always be the case? SC:BW didn't have many changes, but the maps did have to change to keep the game fresh. Would SC:BW with no map changes be similar to a sport? Could SC2 be considered a sport once Blizzard is done balancing? Will our reliance on map changes to keep the game fresh stop us from reaching the same level as football or basketball?
In today's market, I will say yes. In 90s? Perhaps not, but definitely so with the way the video-game industry functions and markets.
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On January 09 2013 05:35 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:35 GregMandel wrote:Great post as always Torte, even though the title is actually provocative it's again really well constructed and argumented, love your articles 10/10 would read again  hehehe Yes, I intentionally made it provocative to attract new readers and invoke good discussions :B I also wanted to push DustinBrowder's button :B Haha, i like that.
Good post, definitely worth reading.
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On January 09 2013 06:08 Ryuhou)aS( wrote:
A Very interesting read. I liked a lot of the points you made.
One thing I would argue against you is you make it seem that mainstream sports don't ever change, and e-sports is constantly changing. While this feels like it could be true, it's really not.
My example is the offense in the NFL (or just professional AMERICAN[for you foreigners ;p] football), and how it's changed over the years. Starting with the fact that there used to be no passing plays in football, it literally was all rushing...then it changed into a little bit of passing with the emphasis on running, then it changed into a good medium where you use running to open up passing game, then it changed into teams using passing more and more, and now you have teams with spread offenses, only running 1 out of every 4 plays (just to keep defenses honest).
The truth is, every now and then a new player (or more often a coach) comes along who has a different scheme, that completely changes the way American Football is played. This I feel is very comparable to how a different player in e-sports (particularly sc:bw and sc2) comes along and makes new plays that were previously unheard of, and completely changes the game (such as MC and his all-ins, Jaedong with his muta's in sc:bw, or even Taeja with his massive orbital builds)
That being said, i truly enjoyed your article. I'd give it 9/10 (taking a point of for 1 or 2 slight grammatical errors, i know it's stupid but, if you're going to be writing an article grammar should be 100% spot on perfect. This is why there's editors)
I like your post, very insightful!
I think the change I'm aiming more for is more towards really changing the game. We can see that in StarCraft & the expansions at how each new unit is meant to both fill the flaws of an asymmetrical race as well as give it new options and abilities.
For your Football example, this is more like everyone doing one-timing attack (4-gate) and then the new "metagame" evolved into passing, this happens in StarCraft, but patches also fast-forward this progress (this is an area I didn't delve into further, that is my fault).
I'm not denying sports don't change, there's just a vast difference between the two and the approach helps emphasize that.
Thank you <3
Please show me all grammatical errors. I do not have an editor, it's just me reading and re-writng!
On January 09 2013 06:52 snively wrote:
what happens if somebody clicks reply as soon as this goes up and posts something as fast as they can and they get a post in between the OP and the credits?
Good luck, I'm very fast because I can format the posts in my own sub-forum.
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On January 09 2013 07:38 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 05:45 shindigs wrote:So why isn’t E-Sports a sport? You have the athletes, you have the mimicked atmosphere (just on a smaller scale), what prevents it from being that of sports? Because the game changes. The core game mechanics improve, change, and are bias towards one side or another. In StarCraft, you have three asymmetrical races that have their pros and cons, in ARTS games such as Dota, you have a multitude of heros that interact with one another differently. For FPS games, a variety of guns also means countless approaches towards taking down your opponent. These varied factors help keep the game fresh, new and entertaining. It displays unlimited possibilities that surpass that of sports on a basic ruled level. Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that the variety of the game and the flexible nature of the software (updates) leads to variations that are not present in traditional sports? TBH I think the argument is not even worth having, since we can have the exact same discussion about traditional sports. The discussion is interesting though since it makes people think more about the game and competitive scene. Yes, I am saying that E-Sports can be built and branched to accomodate all forms of audiences (so long as it follows the three rules listed in my previous article[s]). Traditional sports can't, but reinvent themselves in other forms and ways.
At the same time, can't the nature of Esports and their dependency on the coding of the games be a massively limiting factor? In SC2 we see Blizzard actively dictating the metagame and driving competitive play in a direction of their choice. There are preconceived notions of how each race is supposed to play which Blizzard seems intent on maintaining. Most innovations in the gameplay have been curtailed or stopped all together. We don't get the amazement of seeing someone like Usain Bolt smashing the world record or Michael Jordan taking off from the free throw line. There's a saying "rules are meant to be broken" but in SC2 the rules just get adjusted.
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On January 09 2013 07:49 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 07:38 Torte de Lini wrote:On January 09 2013 05:45 shindigs wrote:So why isn’t E-Sports a sport? You have the athletes, you have the mimicked atmosphere (just on a smaller scale), what prevents it from being that of sports? Because the game changes. The core game mechanics improve, change, and are bias towards one side or another. In StarCraft, you have three asymmetrical races that have their pros and cons, in ARTS games such as Dota, you have a multitude of heros that interact with one another differently. For FPS games, a variety of guns also means countless approaches towards taking down your opponent. These varied factors help keep the game fresh, new and entertaining. It displays unlimited possibilities that surpass that of sports on a basic ruled level. Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that the variety of the game and the flexible nature of the software (updates) leads to variations that are not present in traditional sports? TBH I think the argument is not even worth having, since we can have the exact same discussion about traditional sports. The discussion is interesting though since it makes people think more about the game and competitive scene. Yes, I am saying that E-Sports can be built and branched to accomodate all forms of audiences (so long as it follows the three rules listed in my previous article[s]). Traditional sports can't, but reinvent themselves in other forms and ways. At the same time, can't the nature of Esports and their dependency on the coding of the games be a massively limiting factor? In SC2 we see Blizzard actively dictating the metagame and driving competitive play in a direction of their choice. There are preconceived notions of how each race is supposed to play which Blizzard seems intent on maintaining. Most innovations in the gameplay have been curtailed or stopped all together. We don't get the amazement of seeing someone like Usain Bolt smashing the world record or Michael Jordan taking off from the free throw line. There's a saying "rules are meant to be broken" but in SC2 the rules just get adjusted.
At the same time, can't the nature of Esports and their dependency on the coding of the games be a massively limiting factor?
I would figure it to be the other way. Your justification seems to be pointing more towards the lack of a developer's connection and direction with the community & E-Sports as a whole, to which many would agree. I wouldn't necessarily associate that with the coding because the possibilities are near endless!
Strategy is a whole 'nother area to delve into, not my forte either ):
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Esport is not a sport. We should not even use sports in it. Look at how unfit people are playing it. I agree there is a community and prove the point that gaming is sociable. But how can people begin to think esport is close to being a sport. We will all die to obese related diseases if the whole world starts thinking we can do sports by playing games. The only game I can consider sports like are games on WI. As much as I like gaming, I don't see how it can become socially acceptable as sports anytime soon.
Are we going to start calling playing rubric cube box-sport?
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EPT
