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On January 09 2013 08:11 Zaurus wrote:
Esport is not a sport. We should not even use sports in it. Look at how unfit people are playing it. I agree there is a community and prove the point that gaming is sociable. But how can people begin to think esport is close to being a sport. We will all die to obese related diseases if the whole world starts thinking we can do sports by playing games. The only game I can consider sports like are games on WI. As much as I like gaming, I don't see how it can become socially acceptable as sports anytime soon.
Please read the article, it's listed why we call E-Sports and towards who we target that term for.
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On January 09 2013 08:11 Zaurus wrote:
Esport is not a sport. We should not even use sports in it. Look at how unfit people are playing it. I agree there is a community and prove the point that gaming is sociable. But how can people begin to think esport is close to being a sport. We will all die to obese related diseases if the whole world starts thinking we can do sports by playing games. The only game I can consider sports like are games on WI. As much as I like gaming, I don't see how it can become socially acceptable as sports anytime soon.
Are we going to start calling playing rubric cube box-sport?
I've yet to see a pro SCII player that looks less fit than a linebacker...
Also, sport and physical exercise aren't necessarily the same thing. They overlap a lot but a sport doesn't have to be physically demanding to be a sport.
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On January 09 2013 08:15 Fischbacher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 08:11 Zaurus wrote:
Esport is not a sport. We should not even use sports in it. Look at how unfit people are playing it. I agree there is a community and prove the point that gaming is sociable. But how can people begin to think esport is close to being a sport. We will all die to obese related diseases if the whole world starts thinking we can do sports by playing games. The only game I can consider sports like are games on WI. As much as I like gaming, I don't see how it can become socially acceptable as sports anytime soon.
Are we going to start calling playing rubric cube box-sport? I've yet to see a pro SCII player that looks less fit than a linebacker... Also, sport and physical exercise aren't necessarily the same thing. They overlap a lot but a sport doesn't have to be physically demanding to be a sport.
I get the point that you're trying to make and I agree with it... But the way you're going about it is all wrong. Taeja, in all his awesomeness is skinny as a twig on one extreme, and desrow is the other extreme. Those linebackers have a TON of muscle which I think counts towards being fit (in most cases).
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I'm mainly refuting the part of this article that claims the game changes makes it not a sport, but really, if you do something for sport, then that's what it is, and if you do it professionally then it counts as that.
To state that mainstream sports don't change is quite incorrect though, and that's my main issue with this. Every World Cup the ball selection is a major issue and can be a problem that players become vocal about. Offside rules are altered at times, and are not the same in all leagues depending on the league or if it's international play. Formula 1 (i know there are some people who don't consider this a sport either) changes its rules all the time. Practically every new season comes with a patch. Its up to the governing body to decide whether something is in the spirit of the rules or not, and great designers are known for being able to bend the rules to get what others might consider a cheap advantage, and drivers are judged for being quick, but also for what car they have.
And there are also pretty much only three engine manufacturers now as well. The significant difference half a second to a second means in racing always remind me of people acknowledging a far ahead grand-master really is from everything else.
Tennis changes. Racket improvements make a huge difference. Playing the net these days is rare, and practically meta. Is a drop shot cheesy because you can't hit a passing shot? Are nike and gatorade ruining sports? Do $500 practically weightless soccer shoes not count? Esports is competitive, its a sport, it counts. A friend of mine who doesn't ever really watch esports thought the Blizzard Cup reminded him of the Champions League. And this is not 'entertainment'. Sniper is not an entertainer. I'm not a wrestling or UFC fan at all, but I think your 'categorization' of them in all this is inaccurate as well. I just can't say I agree.
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On January 09 2013 08:25 hg2g2 wrote:
I'm mainly refuting the part of this article that claims the game changes makes it not a sport, but really, if you do something for sport, then that's what it is, and if you do it professionally then it counts as that.
To state that mainstream sports don't change is quite incorrect though, and that's my main issue with this. Every World Cup the ball selection is a major issue and can be a problem that players become vocal about. Offside rules are altered at times, and are not the same in all leagues depending on the league or if it's international play. Formula 1 (i know there are some people who don't consider this a sport either) changes its rules all the time. Practically every new season comes with a patch. Its up to the governing body to decide whether something is in the spirit of the rules or not, and great designers are known for being able to bend the rules to get what others might consider a cheap advantage, and drivers are judged for being quick, but also for what car they have.
And there are also pretty much only three engine manufacturers now as well. The significant difference half a second to a second means in racing always remind me of people acknowledging a far ahead grand-master really is from everything else.
Tennis changes. Racket improvements make a huge difference. Playing the net these days is rare, and practically meta. Is a drop shot cheesy because you can't hit a passing shot? Are nike and gatorade ruining sports? Do $500 practically weightless soccer shoes not count? Esports is competitive, its a sport, it counts. A friend of mine who doesn't ever really watch esports thought the Blizzard Cup reminded him of the Champions League. And this is not 'entertainment'. Sniper is not an entertainer. I'm not a wrestling or UFC fan at all, but I think your 'categorization' of them in all this is inaccurate as well. I just can't say I agree.
Wrestling (not WWE, but the traditional sport), also changes rules quite frequently. During my time in junior high and high-school there were in fact three major rules changes in freestyle wrestling rules. (I say freestyle to differentiate from folkstyle which is more common in the states or greco-roman wrestling).
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The change argument has some valid criticism like that the core game play in every game remains the same and in cs1.6 the settings (maps and no updates) were the same for a very long time. Then there sports perspective that regular sports don't change but this isn't true at all. As a hockey fan i can say that the game has changed very dramatically over time and often over decades even.
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There are many things similar to the "esport" you mention. Competitive chess, board games, spelling bee and eating competition. Is it justifiable to call them names like c-sport, b-sport and spelling sport? Personally I feel that the word sport cannot be used just because there are similarity to sport. There are way too many activities with sports like characteristic. Sport in itself is too fundamental.
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I know that it goes in a completely opposite direction than trying to disargue that esport is not an actual sport, and you're trying to say something way more important. But simply arguing against the title, yes esport can be considered a sport, saying otherwise is by definition quite wrong ^^
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Was about to respond that I'm sick of people arguing semantics on this. Then read the full article and saw it was as good as the rest of the series. Thanks for the good read Torte.
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So why isn’t E-Sports a sport? You have the athletes, you have the mimicked atmosphere (just on a smaller scale), what prevents it from being that of sports? Because the game changes. The core game mechanics improve, change, and are bias towards one side or another. In StarCraft, you have three asymmetrical races that have their pros and cons, in ARTS games such as Dota, you have a multitude of heros that interact with one another differently. For FPS games, a variety of guns also means countless approaches towards taking down your opponent. These varied factors help keep the game fresh, new and entertaining. It displays unlimited possibilities that surpass that of sports on a basic ruled level.
Because video-game(s) can change so much, be improved and become visually stunning, the possibilities to innovate it makes it better than mainstream sports. The way these games are accessed and the tools used to better spectate each match and provide insightful information for viewers and commentators alike surpass that of mainstream sports.
i really don't agree with this at all.
trying to compare a bunch of games to the whole "sport" universe and making baseless claims really. how do you even want to compare sc2, cs and dota together vs football, soccer (as you guys call it) and basketball?
all these games have metagames, that define everything. if you're not knowledgeable enough about these sports (no idea what you know about these) it doesn't mean it's junst a bunch of guys running after a ball.
Ever heard of barcelona, netherlands or italy? Yeah every once in a while someone comes up with a new style of playing in soccer that creates a revolution for the whole following generation. But then people adapt, prepare counter strategies, then in the middle of the game you also have coaching. Players also have evolved into being able to fill different roles depending on the state of the game, etc. Put it short, strategy can only be appreciated by hardcore fans / experts. Sounds very much like in e-sports to me. You could also have the counter argument of a very famous basketball caster saying : "oh our sport is changing all the time, so many strategies in our league, you have an amazing player pool which brings new players every draft blablabla : our sport is infinite and always reinventing itself, not like these nerds of counter-strike that just run around killing people on a damn video game".
Sports have strategies, metagame, new players, new rules, new equipments, etc.
The second argument is meaningless too. Just like you won't get the best production for a 2nd league soccer match, you won't get all your awesome tools in a Competo Cup stream. But in the champion's league, or superbowl game, you will get just as much insightful information as in a sc2 or cs match. This also took years to develop, e-sports is just profiting from this progress in "what the viewer wants to see in a competitive environment".
No offense, but it just sounds like these 2 points come from someone that's a fan of something and that has quite low knowledge about the things he is comparing his hobby to, saying very general (quite bullshit) things about something as complex as the world of ALL THE SPORTS in general.
Imagine the contrary now, some football geek saying e-sports is worthless because of X, and as an e-sports fan you basically know what he says is wrong.
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I'm still a bit confused. Perhaps it was in your previous article, but how do you define a traditional sport?
Aren't traditional sports reworked with reinvented rules? When people play a pick up game on the street - is the game not a sport if it's a variation of basketball or soccer with neighborhood rules? Will I end this post with a non-rhetorical question?
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On January 09 2013 07:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
Please show me all grammatical errors. I do not have an editor, it's just me reading and re-writng!
I sent you a PM. I didn't want to take up a bunch of space in this thread with me being a stickler for proper grammar.
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I always enjoy reading TDL and this was no exception.
I do feel there is an lack of any actual argument about the issue. Your only point about e-sports not being a sport (game change) is more an argument why esports cannot be compared to traditional sports. I do admit that the constant change in games (and/or within games) makes e-sports more comparable to "tv talent shows" on some levels. However, it doesn't change e-sports from being a sport (or not), it just defines e-sports the way "track and field" or "combat sports" defines a subset of sports.
The other thing about all the change is that you have to consider how new e-sports is compared to the rest of the sports world. If you consider "ball sports" for a minute you can trace how some of them evolved (changed). Football (soccer), rugby, American football, and basketball. The difference is that the change has happened relatively slowly. Those are major sports that have (now) been established for a long time. On a less known level we have things like Ultimate and disc golf.
Perhaps we should be comparing e-sports with motorsports (or other sports where constant technological advances impact the sport on a greater level). When you look at the kinds of cars or motorcycles raced 40 years ago some of the events don't even look the same. Also, like the evolution of our traditional sports we see what started with a few model-A races expand into motorcycles, and boats as well as split into hundreds of varieties based track or race type (with subsets for different classes). This is is what we're seeing in e-sports. It's just happening faster.
As a final note, please don't ever compare UFC (mma) with WWE again :D
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Nice write up, but so many of these similar threads lol.
EDIT: Who cares if eSports is similar to Sport or not...........what is important is we must grow together as one and promote eSports to the rest of the world! Isn't it beautiful to see eSports grow? So that should be where we put our energy, effort, time and focus, not debating whether eSportsis a sport or not..........
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yo sc2 is taxing on my mind and muscles. i get so stressed playing it so i dont really 
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On January 09 2013 08:25 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 08:15 Fischbacher wrote:On January 09 2013 08:11 Zaurus wrote:
Esport is not a sport. We should not even use sports in it. Look at how unfit people are playing it. I agree there is a community and prove the point that gaming is sociable. But how can people begin to think esport is close to being a sport. We will all die to obese related diseases if the whole world starts thinking we can do sports by playing games. The only game I can consider sports like are games on WI. As much as I like gaming, I don't see how it can become socially acceptable as sports anytime soon.
Are we going to start calling playing rubric cube box-sport? I've yet to see a pro SCII player that looks less fit than a linebacker... Also, sport and physical exercise aren't necessarily the same thing. They overlap a lot but a sport doesn't have to be physically demanding to be a sport. I get the point that you're trying to make and I agree with it... But the way you're going about it is all wrong. Taeja, in all his awesomeness is skinny as a twig on one extreme, and desrow is the other extreme. Those linebackers have a TON of muscle which I think counts towards being fit (in most cases).
I don't consider linebackers fit because while they certainly have a lot of muscle they don't really have a healthy body.
That part of my post was really just in jest, though. The only point that had any worth to it, imo, is that a sport does not need to be correlated with physical exertion. Hence why I consider things like Golf, Shooting and Curling sports.
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I don't think you know what you are talking about...
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://www.theteaent.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ray-lewis.jpg) RAY LEWIS, SO UNHEALTHY! ![[image loading]](http://behindblondiepark.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/new-england-patriots-linebacker-tedy-bruschi-2008.jpg) TEDY BRUSCHI, SUCH A SLOB! ![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8IBeVam7E28/TiYQQ06tpdI/AAAAAAAAycc/BFs9KKUjZJg/s1600/Shawne+Merriman.jpg) SHAWNE MERRIMAN, DISCUSTING!
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someone keeps drawing funny pictures on their body.
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Australia8532 Posts
Your introduction was great and then you continued the enlightening discussion through a plausible dissection of the e-Sports environment. All of this was setting me up for a great, contentious and exciting issue.
And then...
So why isn’t E-Sports a sport? You have the athletes and you have the mimicked atmosphere (just on a smaller scale). What prevents it from being that of sports? Because the game changes.
To me, this is a very weak distinction and platform to argue from. I don’t mean to be rude but I feel this exposes a real lack of understanding of ‘real’ sports. Within a single game this position is even harder maintain as the value of strategy in traditional sports is significantly undervalued in your analysis. If you extrapolate your position into the general gaming genre, and then contend that eSports =/= sports because developers are constantly able to release new games and expansions, then I feel that this actually weakens the appeal of eSports and represents a real barrier to garnering a significant following and viewer base.
Ultimately, eSports is almost a community-specific term used by those who wish to justify the seriousness of their game. I personally don’t have a problem with it, but I think everyone is over-estimating the reach of “eSports” and the care-factor from the general population. Furthermore:
E-Sports is not necessarily sports, but is an accurate term to help the general public understand what E-Sports composes of
I have tried to use the term eSports with people outside the community and they honestly don’t understand the implication I am intimating. Also, it is extremely hard to be taken seriously by a person outside the community when you use the term eSports as they generally relate “sports” to physical activity and acumen IN ADDITION to strategy. Overall, I just much prefer the term “competitive gaming.”
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I feel overall you guys are making good points that perhaps I did undervalue that of how much sports changes. However, I stand by the differencing view of video games not similar to sports because of how much it changes.
If we disregard the asymmetry of video games (two identical teams with different, guns, races, advantages, asymmetrical maps, different heros/champions, different timed bonuses, etc), the amount of change we see as the games grow through new ages (Brood War to StarCraft II) is quite large. It is approached much differently and on a whole new level that is distinctive from that of sports. For most traditional mainstream sports, the rules, goals and ability to play [or tools/knowledge] remains quite low. Video games have the same basic rules that most can identify with (plant the bomb, destroy the other team, increase economy to build army to overcome opponent) as well, however, the details involving how to go about it hinders video games being less approaching or accessible for people than that of sports.
This is one of the many aspects that really distinguishes sports from video games/E-Sports. I can see how "sports doesn't change" can seem like I'm installing the idea of it being stale or redundant (I don't think I wrote that, but its implicit by how E-Sports cannot be like sports because of how rapid and swift it changes). But it's the fact that it can remain so concretely easy to be involved on a lower-level and then engage in key roles on a higher level (with accompanying strategy) is what makes Sports so much better than E-Sports in that regard. We're not talking about strategy or the pace at which it constantly reinvents itself; that's found in many and all games and sports. We're talking about the core idea of the sport changing: revised to make it easier, harder, more focused in one area than another (engagements over macromanagement, etc.)
On the other hand, video games can change so drastically, it is no longer really the same game besides maintaining the rules that define its very genre. But you sacrifice potential accessibility or you try to make it so accessible and easy to learn that you alienate your core crowd.
Very interesting topic to explore I feel :3
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EPT
