Originally written by Daily ESPORTS' Nam Yoon-sung, I've taken the liberty of summarising the key points of the editorial.
Since Rain's victory in the Auction All-Kill Starleague on the 27th of October, there has been no news of a subsequent OnGameNet Starleague, why is this?
From the first broadcast of the 1999 Progamer Korea Open for Brood War, the Starleague turned into the flagship brand for OnGameNet. With sponsorships from major corporations such as Shinhan Bank and Korean Air, the attraction of large sponsors towards the Starleague demonstrated the growth of e-Sports as a spectator sport.
After the conclusion of the last Brood War Starleague, the tving Starleague on the 4th of August, OnGameNet immediately announced their plans to switch to Starcraft 2 with the Auction All-Kill Starleague. Subsequently, preliminaries and the tournament itself concluded in a span of three months after the announcement. However, since the conclusion of the Auction All-Kill Starleague, we have heard of no further news of the next Starleague.
With the beginning of the year, it seems that OnGameNet is starting to push League of Legends' Champions tournament as their flagship brand. Combined with the game itself being #1 on the PC Bang most played rankings for the past twenty weeks, it is no surprise that OnGameNet have made this decision.
The 'LoL effect' has taken the E-Sports scene in Korea by storm. The concept of teams greatly represents what traditional sports in Korea, such as baseball and football, more than what Starcraft did with Proleague. Champions has also taken over OnGameNet's key time slots of 7:30pm Wednesday and Friday, which were traditionally taken by the Starleague. This season, the Round of 12 was played on Wednesday, Friday and Saturday nights, with high viewer counts.
It will not be until February 2013 that OnGameNet switches from Standard Definition 4:3 (480p) to High Definition 16;9 (1080p), due to the Yongsan studio not being fully equipped to broadcast in HD. Due to this, this may also be a reason why a new Starleague has not been talked about.
However, during the time between October and February, another Starleague could have been run. Despite the WCS and WCG taking some time out of the calendar, at least qualifiers and dual tournament could have been run to hype the fans up for the upcoming Starleague.
With the finishing touches being applied to the installation of HD equipment in Yongsan Stadium, another issue is the upcoming Heart of the Swarm expansion. Despite the release date being in March, it is necessary to wait for at least one month after the expansion to allow for players and spectators to adapt to the new game.
Due to these circumstances, it would be logical that a Heart of the Swarm Starleague would begin in either April or May 2013.
Still, it feels sad to me - we just had OSL come into the scene, the same OSL where legends were born, and then we're left without OSL for a while it seems.
To me, this just confirms what I had already expected: GSL will remain the #1 tournament in StarCraft 2 (individual league).
On December 28 2012 11:22 Entirety wrote: I haven't been a part of the BW scene.
Still, it feels sad to me - we just had OSL come into the scene, the same OSL where legends were born, and then we're left without OSL for a while it seems.
To me, this just confirms what I had already expected: GSL will remain the #1 tournament in StarCraft 2 (individual league).
It won't happen. Kespa won't just hand over all their players to GSL, they like using them on their own.
On December 28 2012 11:21 blade55555 wrote: Well at least OSL plans on having another starleague for hots. Not to surprised at them putting LoL as their flagship game now.
I'm sure this comment will bring on a bunch of "LOL SC2 DYING GAME LOL" type of posts.
I have to agree with the points presented in the OP, 1 month after HotS release at minimum before any legitimate tournament can even be arranged.
On December 28 2012 11:22 Entirety wrote: I haven't been a part of the BW scene.
Still, it feels sad to me - we just had OSL come into the scene, the same OSL where legends were born, and then we're left without OSL for a while it seems.
To me, this just confirms what I had already expected: GSL will remain the #1 tournament in StarCraft 2 (individual league).
Well now, legends will mostly be born from the league... of legends.
Not really surprised at anything here. I've seen the numbers for PC Bangs, and they're not pretty for someone like me, who really don't see the fun in LoL but loves me some SC2/BW.
I don't see the OSL going away any time soon, but I can see it being aired at terrible times for westerners, and with smaller prizes.
While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
At least the article doesnt suggest things like lacking sponsor or stuffs like that. DoA promises some great sc2 content on OGN very soon and we all know he means OSL Anyway, It would be better to have ODT in December and OSL in the first quarter of 2013 to round up WoL
well foreign events like MLG, dreamhack, IPL still seem to be running really well with their sc2 portions, GSL seems to be doing fine and dandy so id say sc2 isnt dying as bad as people make it up to be
blizzard will obviously want kespa to transition to hots as soon as possible and get the players on it for greater exposure. so it would be foolish to hold a starleague which'll make the players spending all their time practicing on liberty with hots release right there. you'd want to them to have some kind of competence going into the game.
so yes, hots starleague probably starting in the summer.
On December 28 2012 11:36 X3GoldDot wrote: well foreign events like MLG, dreamhack, IPL still seem to be running really well with their sc2 portions, GSL seems to be doing fine and dandy so id say sc2 isnt dying as bad as people make it up to be
don't know why but i'm getting the feeling ogn will drop sc2 hots sooner or later because of very few spectator.(refer to the volume of people last OSL)
i dont have a problem with GSL as the major individual and Proleague as the team league. To be honest, i think the last OSL was pretty bad, compared to GSL standards
Honestly makes me pretty hyped for HOTS lol. We are about to have a completely new game and I'm not sure people are really realizing the significance of that right now. It has the potential to have a good effect on viewership and interest I think.
On December 28 2012 11:51 Zeon0 wrote: i dont have a problem with GSL as the major individual and Proleague as the team league. To be honest, i think the last OSL was pretty bad, compared to GSL standards
On December 28 2012 11:36 X3GoldDot wrote: well foreign events like MLG, dreamhack, IPL still seem to be running really well with their sc2 portions, GSL seems to be doing fine and dandy so id say sc2 isnt dying as bad as people make it up to be
This still doesn't change the fact that Korea has not been interested at all by STARCRAFT 2....
Korea does not care about Starcraft anymore... can you believe it?
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
Really hope we have a HotS OSL, it'll be like Gom took the role of MBC, and we'll go back to having one big happy starcraft family :D
It's kind of sad that we can't have one big happy esports family though, no need to be mean to LoL Good on them that they have support from some of the most professional guys in esports
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
I HIGHLY doubt that it would ever adopt a BW mod for Starcraft 2. If anything, it'd just go back to Brood War.
Anyone knows how much Blizzard charge Kespa for running sc2 tournament since they charge foreign tournaments a percentage. Does the creator of LoL charge tournaments for using their game also?
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
On December 28 2012 12:20 NoGasfOu wrote: Anyone knows how much Blizzard charge Kespa for running sc2 tournament since they charge foreign tournaments a percentage. Does the creator of LoL charge tournaments for using their game also?
Riot games (The creator of LoL) sponsors the esports scene heavily, even paying salaries to the progamers they feel are the most official. They sponsor all the tournaments, etc., but at the same time, the scene is basically based upon them, it's not nearly as organic as ours.
No HD at Yongsan did not stop OGN from running the last OSL (nor KeSPA from running the current Proleague).
I think chances are good that there will be another OSL before the release of Heart of the Swarm in March. This fits with DoA's hints and the notion that leagues will only switch to HotS roughly a month after its release (when most inconsistencies will have been ironed out).
On December 28 2012 11:36 X3GoldDot wrote: well foreign events like MLG, dreamhack, IPL still seem to be running really well with their sc2 portions, GSL seems to be doing fine and dandy so id say sc2 isnt dying as bad as people make it up to be
This still doesn't change the fact that Korea has not been interested at all by STARCRAFT 2....
Korea does not care about Starcraft anymore... can you believe it?
Well the last SSL finals had a greater attendance then the OSL finals, if anything its only starcraft 2.
On December 28 2012 11:51 Zeon0 wrote: i dont have a problem with GSL as the major individual and Proleague as the team league. To be honest, i think the last OSL was pretty bad, compared to GSL standards
Wouldn't even mind if GSTL was the main team league. I can barely get hyped for PL due to the quality of play being consistently worse than GSTL's.
On December 28 2012 12:20 NoGasfOu wrote: Anyone knows how much Blizzard charge Kespa for running sc2 tournament since they charge foreign tournaments a percentage. Does the creator of LoL charge tournaments for using their game also?
Riot games (The creator of LoL) sponsors the esports scene heavily, even paying salaries to the progamers they feel are the most official. They sponsor all the tournaments, etc., but at the same time, the scene is basically based upon them, it's not nearly as organic as ours.
They don't sponsor The Champions though, that tournament has been getting better sponsors in Korea than what Starcraft in the last 2 years.
This doesn't bother me at all though, the OGN LoL tournament is extremely entertaining and it just seems to be getting bigger and better. It's just a little weird to say that Korea doesnt care about Starcraft anymore.
On December 28 2012 11:51 Zeon0 wrote: i dont have a problem with GSL as the major individual and Proleague as the team league. To be honest, i think the last OSL was pretty bad, compared to GSL standards
Wouldn't even mind if GSTL was the main team league. I can barely get hyped for PL due to the quality of play being consistently worse than GSTL's.
Well, at least Kespa knows that all-kill format is only for entertainment and not a true test of team skill. Hence they only have 2 out of 6 rounds being all-kill, because all-kill is entertaining. That's why I like proleague better than GSTL.
On December 28 2012 12:38 Proseat wrote: No HD at Yongsan did not stop OGN from running the last OSL (nor KeSPA from running the current Proleague).
I think chances are good that there will be another OSL before the release of Heart of the Swarm in March. This fits with DoA's hints and the notion that leagues will only switch to HotS roughly a month after its release (when most inconsistencies will have been ironed out).
Hm i'm not sure I know gomtv has said they are switching as soon as hots is released, I imagine MLG/IPL/NASL will do the same.
It would be weird though to have half the tourneys doing hots while the other half do wol lol.
On December 28 2012 11:51 Zeon0 wrote: i dont have a problem with GSL as the major individual and Proleague as the team league. To be honest, i think the last OSL was pretty bad, compared to GSL standards
Wouldn't even mind if GSTL was the main team league. I can barely get hyped for PL due to the quality of play being consistently worse than GSTL's.
Well, at least Kespa knows that all-kill format is only for entertainment and not a true test of team skill. Hence they only have 2 out of 6 rounds being all-kill, because all-kill is entertaining. That's why I like proleague better than GSTL.
Agreed, if GSTL has proleague format I would get more excited. But since it is always AK I could care less for it :/.
Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
Wasn't following OSL SC2 as the content harkened back to the early 2000's especially when compared with the GSL. At least there's going to be less saturation of SC2 competitive scene in Korea for a while, if there is much of a scene to begin with.
These sudden transitions such as the one from BW to SC2 take time. I feel like the first SC2 OSL was really just a practice run to see how production needs to be changed and how to seamlessly transition into a scene that is already used to high-quality broadcasting and production. The imminent expansion is a perfect opportunity for KeSPA to enter the scene; there isn't much left juice in WoL (not to mention viewership numbers will jump with HotS) and the extra time in between expansions will let them polish up their production.
Well, as other people said already, let's just believe in blizzard and continu supporting the game we love. I mean, the fact that League of Legend is more popular doesn't mean that there is no place for starcraft. Just think of all the pro sports (Football, NFL, NBA, NHL, Baseball), they can all live together, i'm pretty sure Starcraft will still remain popular and people will still play/watch it and stuff
We all know, however hard people try to forget, that SC1 only became the greatest game in the history of the world once BW was released. Vanilla SC1 wasn't great at all. Same with WC3, another massive hit in Korea. If history is anything to go by, it will be HotS, more likely LotV that brings SC2 the same glory as its parent game.
Hots is a massive improvement on WoL. Anyone whos played in the beta can tell you that.
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
Exactly. SC1 was fixed with BW, why can't HotS and LotV be the same for SC2
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
Exactly. SC1 was fixed with BW, why can HotS and LotV be the same for SC2
it can. it's just it appears like the developers still don't know the proper direction to go with the game (as evidenced by warhounds)
On December 28 2012 11:53 Doodsmack wrote: Honestly makes me pretty hyped for HOTS lol. We are about to have a completely new game and I'm not sure people are really realizing the significance of that right now. It has the potential to have a good effect on viewership and interest I think.
Completely new game?
What are you looking at man? I don't see it.
I wouldn't get my hopes up. I would not be surprised if OGN drops the OSL for SCII eventually.
This is very bad news for those of us still hoping SC2 picks up in South Korea. Maybe HOTS will spur up interest again, but this seems more and more unlikely with each passing month.
On December 28 2012 13:45 emythrel wrote: We all know, however hard people try to forget, that SC1 only became the greatest game in the history of the world once BW was released. Vanilla SC1 wasn't great at all. Same with WC3, another massive hit in Korea. If history is anything to go by, it will be HotS, more likely LotV that brings SC2 the same glory as its parent game.
Hots is a massive improvement on WoL. Anyone whos played in the beta can tell you that.
If history is anything to go by HotS should've been out 9 months after SC2. The situations are obviously different.
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
Exactly. SC1 was fixed with BW, why can't HotS and LotV be the same for SC2
Because BW fixed SC1 by adding units.. the fundamentals of the game were still great (the dynamism of it). SC2 will NOT be solved by new units.. it will help, yes, as HoTS is way better than WoL. But the fundamentals of Deathballs and maxing out on 3 bases are still present.
On December 28 2012 13:45 emythrel wrote: We all know, however hard people try to forget, that SC1 only became the greatest game in the history of the world once BW was released. Vanilla SC1 wasn't great at all. Same with WC3, another massive hit in Korea. If history is anything to go by, it will be HotS, more likely LotV that brings SC2 the same glory as its parent game.
Hots is a massive improvement on WoL. Anyone whos played in the beta can tell you that.
Not anyone, I assure you. Don't speak for all of us like that. I personally think HOTS is glitter on top of shit. A bandage on a quad amputation.
If OGN cannot find a sponsor for OSL then how CAN Kespa possibly justify standing in GOM's way? Always loved the GSL, even if it is pricey, and I hope it continues to grow.
With that said, I'd love an OSL to happen as well because I miss Doa
I blame KeSPA. Or at least I think they're being ridiculously retarded. SC2 is being overtaken by LoL in Korea? That's when you DON'T make dick moves to tear apart the community, deny english casts for SC2 leagues and try to keep players from entering GSL. I really really hope they get their shit together and start cooperating so we can all profit. Otherwise nobody profits.
On December 28 2012 19:24 LemonyTang wrote: If OGN cannot find a sponsor for OSL then how CAN Kespa possibly justify standing in GOM's way? Always loved the GSL, even if it is pricey, and I hope it continues to grow.
With that said, I'd love an OSL to happen as well because I miss Doa
I don't think it has anything to do with OGN specifically since the last OSL sponsor, Auction All Kill, is now sponsoring part of their LoL league. Maybe it's something along the lines of sponsors not seeing the potential for WoL.
It's sad to see this happening but then again it's what happen to BW. I love eSports and would have gladly seen some sort of cooperation, one BIG team league with all major titles and teams to fight in.
Imo thats much better than having one big game that soaks up everything else. (not saying that LoL actually impacts SC2 that much just as a reference)
I can't stand watching Moba games but hopefully one day I will enjoy them.
edit: Yes we do have 10other major tournaments to "worry" about but this is the sacred land so to speak, Korea. Ofc we can live on without it but they do have the best players and always pushes the limit, if we actually where to lose any of that, SC2(for me) wouldn't be as interested as it is now.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
Exactly. SC1 was fixed with BW, why can HotS and LotV be the same for SC2
it can. it's just it appears like the developers still don't know the proper direction to go with the game (as evidenced by warhounds)
Blizzard's SC2 team should be praised for the willingness to scrap a unit during a beta phase. That shows that they care about the game, not about their image as a team of Mr. Perfects.
I would like to see some stats about how many fans BW had just before the end (before the hybrid bs of course). What I wonder is how big part, if any, LoL had in the killing of BW and if BW could have competed with LoL if they kept going.
Not too surprising to see LoL as their flagship game - it would be nice to see two OSLs next year though (no catastrophe if not, GSL is and will be SC2's premier league anyway).
Despite the release date being in March, it is necessary to wait for at least one month after the expansion to allow for players and spectators to adapt to the new game.
I don't agree with this. Beta has been out for a while now, and I bet that the more casual viewers will have been introduced to HotS through lots of smaller beta tournaments by March. Even in Korea, I bet GSL will be doing some more introductory stuff.
On December 28 2012 20:26 ACrow wrote: Not too surprising to see LoL as their flagship game - it would be nice to see two OSLs next year though (no catastrophe if not, GSL is and will be SC2's premier league anyway).
Despite the release date being in March, it is necessary to wait for at least one month after the expansion to allow for players and spectators to adapt to the new game.
I don't agree with this. Beta has been out for a while now, and I bet that the more casual viewers will have been introduced to HotS through lots of smaller beta tournaments by March. Even in Korea, I bet GSL will be doing some more introductory stuff.
I honestly do not understand how people can say a game is dying or is broken. Games evolve and get better. Seems like many people expect too much early. Let the expansions roll out. Let it try to balance. Then if all else ails maybe. But we're only at the beginning.
imo they should just let it go, personally OSL has always been related with bw and will always be remembered as one of the major tournaments in that game.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
BW took 10 months to arrive, TFT took a year. HoTS will most likely take 3 years to arrive, and LoTV one more year if we're lucky... the customer's attention lifespan is way lower than that. Blizzard thinking they can make the customer pay 3 TIMES for parts of a game are just fooling themselves. It is a 90s philosophy, and it will not work. Besides, as I said in the post earlier, Blizzard has no intention of fixing the fundamentals of the game, because it would require a whole new year of balancing, which they want to avoid.
Don't get me wrong, SC2 is a good game to play, it is simply not up to the Standards of BW, and it will never be. The Dev team probably did their best but they are simply incompetent. What other reasons would you explain the launch of STARCRAFT 2 (not some indie game) WITHOUT CHATROOMS? It's really just a game made by developers of sub-par games like C&C and Dawn of War. It LOOKS like the successor of BW but the emphasis on online play are on different things, which leads me to believe the devs never watched professional BW.
God some people put their heads in the sand. The evidences are piling up on the current decline of Pro SC2, yet people think that JUST LIKE BW, it will be all better later on. It should have been great from the start, with all the initial hype.. yet all the casuals have left, and don't even watch the game anymore.
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
Exactly. SC1 was fixed with BW, why can HotS and LotV be the same for SC2
it can. it's just it appears like the developers still don't know the proper direction to go with the game (as evidenced by warhounds)
Blizzard's SC2 team should be praised for the willingness to scrap a unit during a beta phase. That shows that they care about the game, not about their image as a team of Mr. Perfects.
Ofc they should scrap units during a beta, that doesnt really say anything about them. The fact that stuff like close positions still arent fixed, or how long it took them to fix their damn map pool shows they care way too much about their pride IMO.
On December 28 2012 20:16 Elroi wrote: I would like to see some stats about how many fans BW had just before the end (before the hybrid bs of course). What I wonder is how big part, if any, LoL had in the killing of BW and if BW could have competed with LoL if they kept going.
LoL had nothing to do with the death of BW. The match-fixing scandal and the IP lawsuits already put BW on deathrow long before LoL became popular in Korea.
Totally agree.. LoL is the main force that brings new viewers to E-sports. You all talk about " killing E-sports", LoL is actually the one that is making it live.
On December 28 2012 20:16 Elroi wrote: I would like to see some stats about how many fans BW had just before the end (before the hybrid bs of course). What I wonder is how big part, if any, LoL had in the killing of BW and if BW could have competed with LoL if they kept going.
LoL had nothing to do with the death of BW. The match-fixing scandal and the IP lawsuits already put BW on deathrow long before LoL became popular in Korea.
Don't use LoL as a scapegoat, please.
Agree. LoL is irrelevant to BW decline. Blizzard fucked a lot more BW with the IP lawsuits. Blizzard attacking his own games was kind of stupid, anyway.
On December 28 2012 13:10 silent_owl wrote: Well, I believe in SC2 and I believe in Blizzard. I always took Grubby's advice to heart that Blizzard is working hard on their expansions and have never failed to deliver with their subsequent follow-ups. I'm sure HotS will be better than what I already think is a good game in WoL. And there's no reason to say that LoV could not possibly turn out to be a great game.
Being a Street Fighter fan, I remember when the scene declined but it's vibrant as ever again now. I think as SC fans, we just have to have faith, keep playing, and keep supporting the game we love. Fads go in and out of fashion but we'll always love this game and I'm sure another time for us will come.
OSL and SC2 FIGHTING!
this.
Much of this semi-apocolyptic talk of decline is counterproductive because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we're so negative about the future of sc2, then we have less confidence to continue loving and supporting it moving forward.
Also, it's not a zero sum game. Just because other esports are growing, doesn't meant sc2 is failing.
On December 28 2012 16:24 Sinensis wrote: Not anyone, I assure you. Don't speak for all of us like that. I personally think HOTS is glitter on top of shit. A bandage on a quad amputation.
I'm sorry... but why do you even come to a forum where 70% of ALL discussion is about a game you can "shit"?
Destiny was right. The problem is that the SC2 Devteam have tried to put their own stamp on Starcraft 2 and make it different from BW. Now we're stuck with a second rate version of Broodwar that fewer and fewer people are playing and watching. Things will turn around with HotS but only for a few month. SC2 is dying.
On December 28 2012 16:24 Sinensis wrote: Not anyone, I assure you. Don't speak for all of us like that. I personally think HOTS is glitter on top of shit. A bandage on a quad amputation.
I'm sorry... but why do you even come to a forum where 70% of ALL discussion is about a game you can "shit"?
Why would you just not leave?
The kind of things people say when they don't want to hear the truth.. or at least debate against it.
We come here because some of us still play (I still do.. not very often ,but I still do), and hope that SC2 dev team gets replaced by competent people because we've been waiting for a good sequel for quite a while now. If SC2 was D3-tier, we wouldn't even bother, but there are a few things in game that doesn't make it the deep game that it should be.
And also, Team Liquid is not only about SC2. It's about most MOBAs and BW/SC2, as well as having off-topic discussions. People have the choice of not liking SC2 and still come here.
Am I the only one, who gets way more excited for PL than for GSTL for absolutley no reason. I didnt follow broodwar, the quality of the games is lower, I prefer the allkill format over the 'normal' one, but despite all that i like PL more then GSTL. Is it only because of the FPL?^^
On December 29 2012 02:42 Zeon0 wrote: Am I the only one, who gets way more excited for PL than for GSTL for absolutley no reason. I didnt follow broodwar, the quality of the games is lower, I prefer the allkill format over the 'normal' one, but despite all that i like PL more then GSTL. Is it only because of the FPL?^^
On December 29 2012 02:42 Zeon0 wrote: Am I the only one, who gets way more excited for PL than for GSTL for absolutley no reason. I didnt follow broodwar, the quality of the games is lower, I prefer the allkill format over the 'normal' one, but despite all that i like PL more then GSTL. Is it only because of the FPL?^^
On December 29 2012 02:42 Zeon0 wrote: Am I the only one, who gets way more excited for PL than for GSTL for absolutley no reason. I didnt follow broodwar, the quality of the games is lower, I prefer the allkill format over the 'normal' one, but despite all that i like PL more then GSTL. Is it only because of the FPL?^^
one word... EG-TL =P
no, its not that. yes, it is one factor for sure, but i also like to watch matches without them.
and i forgot to say: i never like GSTL that much, always preferred GSL by quite a large margin (for example i bought every ticket for GSL since mid 2011, but never bought one for GSTL)
On December 29 2012 02:42 Zeon0 wrote: Am I the only one, who gets way more excited for PL than for GSTL for absolutley no reason. I didnt follow broodwar, the quality of the games is lower, I prefer the allkill format over the 'normal' one, but despite all that i like PL more then GSTL. Is it only because of the FPL?^^
one word... EG-TL =P
no, its not that. yes, it is one factor for sure, but i also like to watch matches without them.
and i forgot to say: i never like GSTL that much, always preferred GSL by quite a large margin (for example i bought every ticket for GSL since mid 2011, but never bought one for GSTL)
I've always hated the all-kill format.. it promotes a team having one or two star players instead of having a deep roster. I've paid for the GSTL maybe like a month or two, but realized the only time I ever watch it is if I catch it live..
and then I don't watch pvp, pvz nor zvz which are three embarassingly bad matchups to watch. Therefore, with the acutal racial distribution, I simply don't watch much tournaments.
I can see why this happened after OGN got screwed so hard by KeSPA for the English casting rights for PL. Who knows, though, maybe OSL will come back in force?
I agree with many above me, though, I think GSL will remain the premier league in Korea.
On December 29 2012 02:20 Going4Gold wrote: Destiny was right. The problem is that the SC2 Devteam have tried to put their own stamp on Starcraft 2 and make it different from BW. Now we're stuck with a second rate version of Broodwar that fewer and fewer people are playing and watching. Things will turn around with HotS but only for a few month. SC2 is dying.
Funny, that's exactly the kind of post people on this thread predicted would surface at the very start.
This is pretty idiotic to think that just because a BW league is not focusing on SC2 as much as LoL it means SC2 was dying. OSL was NEVER a big part of SC2 and probably never will be, at least certainly not as big as it was for BW. The only way idiots on forums could justify statements like "SC2 is dying" would be if a tournament that was ever actually a big asset to SC2 were to stop broadcasting it.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
I should be totally sad now, but somehow I'm not. I think the SC2 scene is filled with so many highly entertained tournaments that you won't miss it that much.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
On December 28 2012 16:24 Sinensis wrote: Not anyone, I assure you. Don't speak for all of us like that. I personally think HOTS is glitter on top of shit. A bandage on a quad amputation.
I'm sorry... but why do you even come to a forum where 70% of ALL discussion is about a game you can "shit"?
Why would you just not leave?
If you can point me in the direction of better BW coverage and forums then you'll never see me here again.
On December 28 2012 16:24 Sinensis wrote: Not anyone, I assure you. Don't speak for all of us like that. I personally think HOTS is glitter on top of shit. A bandage on a quad amputation.
I'm sorry... but why do you even come to a forum where 70% of ALL discussion is about a game you can "shit"?
Why would you just not leave?
If you can point me in the direction of better BW coverage and forums then you'll never see me here again.
I honestly think its a good thing if they wait for the expansion before having another OSL. Lets them work on their infrastructure, get casters, switch to HD broadcasting, etc. The StarCraft scene is already saturated with tournaments, so there is no need for OGN to rush out another one.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
Do you really think Artosis was gonna bitch on SC2? He's paid by GomTV which is helped by Blizzard. 1+1 = 2
He has posted this blog during the whole Destiny thing to calm things down. As much as I really like Artosis, I gave absolutely no honesty in that blog.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
I guess reading comprehension is a hard skill to have. What I'm saying, is that there are so many tournaments right now viewers are more spread out between them. So for individual tournaments you have less viewers, but overall in this year you will see more viewers than 2011.
Do we care about OSL not being what OSL was for SCBW when we allready have an OSL-esque league which did what OSL did in SCBW ... I see that as general bandwagonism and just hope those not-so-smart heads at OSL fail miserably at it. (Just for the sake of being the evil, they deserve to fail)
Listen to some adebisi for some realistic approach to why that descision could turn out thé worst for OSL.
On December 29 2012 20:16 bluQ wrote: Do we care about OSL not being what OSL was for SCBW when we allready have an OSL-esque league which did what OSL did in SCBW ... I see that as general bandwagonism and just hope those not-so-smart heads at OSL fail miserably at it. (Just for the sake of being the evil, they deserve to fail)
Listen to some adebisi for some realistic approach to why that descision could turn out thé worst for OSL.
On December 29 2012 20:16 bluQ wrote: Do we care about OSL not being what OSL was for SCBW when we allready have an OSL-esque league which did what OSL did in SCBW ... I see that as general bandwagonism and just hope those not-so-smart heads at OSL fail miserably at it. (Just for the sake of being the evil, they deserve to fail)
Listen to some adebisi for some realistic approach to why that descision could turn out thé worst for OSL.
You mean OGN failing?
That won't happen, LoL is too big for that.
Most probably in some moment the channel will be LoL only.
This proleague they only produce half of the games each week, and lol has the Prime time.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
I guess reading comprehension is a hard skill to have. What I'm saying, is that there are so many tournaments right now viewers are more spread out between them. So for individual tournaments you have less viewers, but overall in this year you will see more viewers than 2011.
Where's your source for this? I think that when viewer numbers are lower for all streams, it doesn't matter if there is a slightly higher density of tournaments compared to last year. Intuitively it makes more sense for total numbers to be down, especially if you combine this with the overall negativity on these forums and the stronger competition from dota and lol. Maybe not over all of 2012, but certainly for the last six months. Obviously I was exaggerating when I said cut in half, maybe it's even higher now than it was exactly at the end of 2011, but in 2012 there seemed to have been a plateauing of numbers and then a decline.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
Do you really think Artosis was gonna bitch on SC2? He's paid by GomTV which is helped by Blizzard. 1+1 = 2
He has posted this blog during the whole Destiny thing to calm things down. As much as I really like Artosis, I gave absolutely no honesty in that blog.
Do you really Artosis would blog about this if he didn't feel that way? That's just ridiculous. If he didn't mean what he said, he wouldn't have put his integrity on the line and lie like that. There was no obligation in the first place to voice his opinion like that.
Are you serious? Yes, Artosis would blog about it even if he didn't feel that way. He is a public figure, he represents GomTV.. therefore, his public opinions have to be in favor of his employer.
Jesus..
Edit: OR we give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he clearly didn't understand what people are criticizing about this game. He starts his blog talking about PvT balance. Who cares? The game is flawed from the fact it is a "sit on 3 bases and max out in 12 min" game, with a deathball vs deathball deciding who wins.. He doesn't talk about this.
People can talk about imbalances all they want, even if the game is balanced, people will not come back to watch it. Spider mines and reavers are units that are amazing for spectators. They replaced them with Helions ( no friendly fire like the mines), and Colossus (1a up your ass). I do know reavers would be imbalanced with a smart AI, but everything is balancable.. when there's a will, there's a way. The only SC2 thing that I would put in that "crowd cheerer" category would be baneling mines.. and perhaps the lategame PvT (ghost vs Templar dynamic), which can be very interesting to watch.
There's no amount of balancing that will make SC2 as interesting as BW. And talking about balance, I think a game like SC2 is harder to balance because everyone plays "perfectly". The army movements are perfects, the macro can get close to perfect (not much incremental changes between the level we are at and perfection). Therefore the outcome depends on the units' stats, not the skill of the player.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
Do you really think Artosis was gonna bitch on SC2? He's paid by GomTV which is helped by Blizzard. 1+1 = 2
He has posted this blog during the whole Destiny thing to calm things down. As much as I really like Artosis, I gave absolutely no honesty in that blog.
Do you really Artosis would blog about this if he didn't feel that way? That's just ridiculous. If he didn't mean what he said, he wouldn't have put his integrity on the line and lie like that. There was no obligation in the first place to voice his opinion like that.
Are you serious? Yes, Artosis would blog about it even if he didn't feel that way. He is a public figure, he represents GomTV.. therefore, his public opinions have to be in favor of his employer.
Jesus..
But he didn't actually have an obligation to blog in the first place.
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
Do you really think Artosis was gonna bitch on SC2? He's paid by GomTV which is helped by Blizzard. 1+1 = 2
He has posted this blog during the whole Destiny thing to calm things down. As much as I really like Artosis, I gave absolutely no honesty in that blog.
Do you really Artosis would blog about this if he didn't feel that way? That's just ridiculous. If he didn't mean what he said, he wouldn't have put his integrity on the line and lie like that. There was no obligation in the first place to voice his opinion like that.
Are you serious? Yes, Artosis would blog about it even if he didn't feel that way. He is a public figure, he represents GomTV.. therefore, his public opinions have to be in favor of his employer.
Jesus..
But he didn't actually have an obligation to blog in the first place.
Of course not, but when your pay is involved.. :/
By the way, I've edited my post while you answered it.
On December 29 2012 20:16 bluQ wrote: Do we care about OSL not being what OSL was for SCBW when we allready have an OSL-esque league which did what OSL did in SCBW ... I see that as general bandwagonism and just hope those not-so-smart heads at OSL fail miserably at it. (Just for the sake of being the evil, they deserve to fail)
Listen to some adebisi for some realistic approach to why that descision could turn out thé worst for OSL.
You mean OGN failing?
That won't happen, LoL is too big for that.
LoL has about another year in it, if that. Ultimately there are only so many interesting things that can happen in an online battle arena. The range of possibilities in Starcraft, however, remains limited only by the toolset given to the players.
Which is why a tiny change such as a unit gaining/losing an upgrade fundamentally changes the metagame, but changing entire heroes in LoL just results in a very slightly different battlefield.
Ultimately Starcraft 2 is a game of its lineage (Starcraft) and will stand the test of time. LoL won't.
If OSL take better caster this time, I will follow them. If not, they better stay with lol only. I don't know if we need another GSL, maybe they should change a bit the kind of tournament to a more european style or whatever.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
It's true. It's really easy to see too. As more and more tournaments are happening and more and more players are streaming not every person can watch all of that content. That leads to people picking their favorites and just watching those. Twitch reps have stated that viewership is UP, just more spread out than it used to be. Tournament organizers have talked about it, professional players have talked about it.
Picking on IdrA as an example for a moment .. He used to get tons of viewers, mostly because at the time he was one of the only foreign zerg players that was streaming and deemed worth watching. Now you can't throw a rock without hitting a player that streams and IdrA is less relevant in the scene than he once was. So the viewers are still there, just not watching the same people they were.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
It's true. It's really easy to see too. As more and more tournaments are happening and more and more players are streaming not every person can watch all of that content. That leads to people picking their favorites and just watching those. Twitch reps have stated that viewership is UP, just more spread out than it used to be. Tournament organizers have talked about it, professional players have talked about it.
Picking on IdrA as an example for a moment .. He used to get tons of viewers, mostly because at the time he was one of the only foreign zerg players that was streaming and deemed worth watching. Now you can't throw a rock without hitting a player that streams and IdrA is less relevant in the scene than he once was. So the viewers are still there, just not watching the same people they were.
and what are the numbers for unique views of people who actually stay on a stream? Someone like me would be counted multiple times as I have multiple streams open at any given time(usually have 2 on my phone 1 on my extra monitor and 1 running on my laptop). Im actually only one viewer that is at most being counted 5 different times. What can I say, I enjoy watching tournaments(its so cool to have pro league vods running while watching hots koth and then some of my fav players personal streams.)
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
I find it really weird that the Koreans haven't been developing their own mod. Maybe they are, we just don't know about it.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
It's true. It's really easy to see too. As more and more tournaments are happening and more and more players are streaming not every person can watch all of that content. That leads to people picking their favorites and just watching those. Twitch reps have stated that viewership is UP, just more spread out than it used to be. Tournament organizers have talked about it, professional players have talked about it.
Picking on IdrA as an example for a moment .. He used to get tons of viewers, mostly because at the time he was one of the only foreign zerg players that was streaming and deemed worth watching. Now you can't throw a rock without hitting a player that streams and IdrA is less relevant in the scene than he once was. So the viewers are still there, just not watching the same people they were.
and what are the numbers for unique views of people who actually stay on a stream? Someone like me would be counted multiple times as I have multiple streams open at any given time(usually have 2 on my phone 1 on my extra monitor and 1 running on my laptop). Im actually only one viewer that is at most being counted 5 different times. What can I say, I enjoy watching tournaments(its so cool to have pro league vods running while watching hots koth and then some of my fav players personal streams.)
This isn't going to have a major effect. Fact of the matter is the vast majority of people only have one monitor, even in a tech-savvy community like SC2 fans. SC2 viewer numbers ARE going up. In early 2011, I remember being impressed that there were almost always at least 5000 people watching streams. Day9 would get 5k and crush anyone else streaming at the same time, Idra/Destiny would get 3k while Catz & the smaller streamers got 500 or so and moved the totals up to about 5k...
Now it's almost always more than that. For instance right now, at what is NOT a peak time for stream viewing, Idra has almost 1.5k viewers, Stephano has 6.5k viewers, BrakOk has 1k, Dimaga has 500, Sen has 2.7k and a host of players have a few hundred. And at the SAME TIME, the Go4SC2 finals is pulling in 3.5k between its German & Polish language streams. So ok, good time for europe... but that's well over 15k viewers - and Go4SC2 is not inflating this number by much!
So sure, some people's viewers are declining, like Idra's, but the day-in, day-out stream viewer numbers are certainly climbing. Is Day9's viewership changing? Not really. But he's no longer crushing everyone else streaming in his time slot - that's where the numbers are growing.
On December 28 2012 19:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: I blame KeSPA. Or at least I think they're being ridiculously retarded. SC2 is being overtaken by LoL in Korea? That's when you DON'T make dick moves to tear apart the community, deny english casts for SC2 leagues and try to keep players from entering GSL. I really really hope they get their shit together and start cooperating so we can all profit. Otherwise nobody profits.
Blizzard was the most divisive force in the early days of SC2. Their desire to control e-sports themselves is what led to a lot of the problems SC2 is facing right now. Why do you think there's no LAN? Honestly?
On December 29 2012 20:16 bluQ wrote: Do we care about OSL not being what OSL was for SCBW when we allready have an OSL-esque league which did what OSL did in SCBW ... I see that as general bandwagonism and just hope those not-so-smart heads at OSL fail miserably at it. (Just for the sake of being the evil, they deserve to fail)
Listen to some adebisi for some realistic approach to why that descision could turn out thé worst for OSL.
You mean OGN failing?
That won't happen, LoL is too big for that.
LoL has about another year in it, if that. Ultimately there are only so many interesting things that can happen in an online battle arena. The range of possibilities in Starcraft, however, remains limited only by the toolset given to the players.
Which is why a tiny change such as a unit gaining/losing an upgrade fundamentally changes the metagame, but changing entire heroes in LoL just results in a very slightly different battlefield.
Ultimately Starcraft 2 is a game of its lineage (Starcraft) and will stand the test of time. LoL won't.
[citation needed]
"There are only so many things that can happen on a rectangle of grass, with only the men on the grass being different from game to game".
I'm curious about how DotA2 is being received in Korea, if it is being received at all? From what I hear,* LoL has a super-stagnant metagame due to how the heroes are classified while DotA2's metagame is constantly shifting.
* Disclaimer: I don't play either of the two games and don't follow the pro-scenes, but I was talking to a video game design student 1-2 weeks ago about the differences between LoL and DotA2. He said he didn't expect LoL to last much longer if it the company doesn't do something drastic to help shake things up, but he did agree that the casual aspect of LoL will keep it in business longer.
On December 28 2012 19:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: I blame KeSPA. Or at least I think they're being ridiculously retarded. SC2 is being overtaken by LoL in Korea? That's when you DON'T make dick moves to tear apart the community, deny english casts for SC2 leagues and try to keep players from entering GSL. I really really hope they get their shit together and start cooperating so we can all profit. Otherwise nobody profits.
Blizzard was the most divisive force in the early days of SC2. Their desire to control e-sports themselves is what led to a lot of the problems SC2 is facing right now. Why do you think there's no LAN? Honestly?
That's easy. It's not because of Blizzard's desire to control e-sports. It's because they think that the number of customers they would gain from superior e-sports capabilities (LAN) is lower than the number of customers they would lose from a more easily pirated game.
I think they're wrong, but I don't make the decisions at Blizzard.
At this point it doesnt make any sense to make SC2 tournaments in Korea nobody would watch it They are just waiting for the expansion pack to get some hype and then play a new OSL before everyone else forget about SC2 til the final expansion kicks in
There are a lot of reasons that BW was more popular than SC2 in Korea but I think the biggest reason is that there is no LAN. Actually this is the reason LoL is more popular than SC2 (free to play). Blizzard wanted to make sure that everyone who played SC2 bought the game legitimately which meant more money in their pockets presumably. However in turn this has hurt the game's popularity a ton because now really only the "hardcore" gamers are familiar with the multi-player aspect of the game. In fact many people only buy the game for the campaign.
I remember my roommates and I used to play BW all together in our apartment all with pirated copies of BW using LAN. My friends were not hardcore SC fans but could play the game (for free) and have a blast doing it. Then we would watch BW pros like Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and be amazed at their skill.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Asian culture pirating games is a pretty common practice. The fact that Blizzard has made it very difficult to play SC2 through LAN with your friends without buying the game I think has made the game's popularity drop significantly in Korea/China.
On January 23 2013 04:10 Albinoswordfish wrote: There are a lot of reasons that BW was more popular than SC2 in Korea but I think the biggest reason is that there is no LAN. Actually this is the reason LoL is more popular than SC2. Blizzard wanted to make sure that everyone who played SC2 bought the game legitimately which meant more money in their pockets presumably. However in turn this has hurt the game's popularity a ton because now really only the "hardcore" gamers are familiar with the multi-player aspect of the game. In fact many people only buy the game for the campaign.
I remember my roommates and I used to play BW all together in our apartment all with pirated copies of BW using LAN. My friends were not hardcore SC fans but could play the game (for free) and have a blast doing it. Then we would watch BW pros like Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and be amazed at their skill.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Asian culture pirating games is a pretty common practice. The fact that Blizzard has made it very difficult to play SC2 through LAN with your friends without buying the game I think has made the game's popularity drop significantly in Korea/China.
There's no single "asian" culture. And even if there was, I don't think pirating would be that much more common than it is here. I think the bigger issue is the individual log-in required for SC2. For BW games each cyber cafe loaded BW onto their computers (whether legally or not is irrelevant here) and people just played it. In the SC2 days, you have to log in individually - it's much less friendly for a public-style computer like at a cyber cafe.
On January 23 2013 04:10 Albinoswordfish wrote: There are a lot of reasons that BW was more popular than SC2 in Korea but I think the biggest reason is that there is no LAN. Actually this is the reason LoL is more popular than SC2. Blizzard wanted to make sure that everyone who played SC2 bought the game legitimately which meant more money in their pockets presumably. However in turn this has hurt the game's popularity a ton because now really only the "hardcore" gamers are familiar with the multi-player aspect of the game. In fact many people only buy the game for the campaign.
I remember my roommates and I used to play BW all together in our apartment all with pirated copies of BW using LAN. My friends were not hardcore SC fans but could play the game (for free) and have a blast doing it. Then we would watch BW pros like Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and be amazed at their skill.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Asian culture pirating games is a pretty common practice. The fact that Blizzard has made it very difficult to play SC2 through LAN with your friends without buying the game I think has made the game's popularity drop significantly in Korea/China.
There's no single "asian" culture. And even if there was, I don't think pirating would be that much more common than it is here. I think the bigger issue is the individual log-in required for SC2. For BW games each cyber cafe loaded BW onto their computers (whether legally or not is irrelevant here) and people just played it. In the SC2 days, you have to log in individually - it's much less friendly for a public-style computer like at a cyber cafe.
So you don't think the lack of ability to pirate the game has hurt the popularity in Korea and China?
On January 23 2013 02:17 Chloroplaste wrote: If OSL take better caster this time, I will follow them. If not, they better stay with lol only. I don't know if we need another GSL, maybe they should change a bit the kind of tournament to a more european style or whatever.
BW did very well with OSL and MSL, I'd actually rather have two truly premiere tournaments as I personally view no SC2 tournament to have the same prestige as GSL. I don't have time to follow a tournament over a weekend, I'd much rather the news coming slowly over several weeks through TL with me watching a game or two when it is someone I really enjoy watching.
On January 23 2013 04:10 Albinoswordfish wrote: There are a lot of reasons that BW was more popular than SC2 in Korea but I think the biggest reason is that there is no LAN. Actually this is the reason LoL is more popular than SC2. Blizzard wanted to make sure that everyone who played SC2 bought the game legitimately which meant more money in their pockets presumably. However in turn this has hurt the game's popularity a ton because now really only the "hardcore" gamers are familiar with the multi-player aspect of the game. In fact many people only buy the game for the campaign.
I remember my roommates and I used to play BW all together in our apartment all with pirated copies of BW using LAN. My friends were not hardcore SC fans but could play the game (for free) and have a blast doing it. Then we would watch BW pros like Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and be amazed at their skill.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Asian culture pirating games is a pretty common practice. The fact that Blizzard has made it very difficult to play SC2 through LAN with your friends without buying the game I think has made the game's popularity drop significantly in Korea/China.
There's no single "asian" culture. And even if there was, I don't think pirating would be that much more common than it is here. I think the bigger issue is the individual log-in required for SC2. For BW games each cyber cafe loaded BW onto their computers (whether legally or not is irrelevant here) and people just played it. In the SC2 days, you have to log in individually - it's much less friendly for a public-style computer like at a cyber cafe.
It is not "Asian culture," but I would definitely say that the number of free online games released in Asia definitely outstrips the number of free online games released in the West in both quantity and quality, so much so that if a game isn't free in Asia, then there's little incentive to go out and play it. Why waste money on a game you may or may not enjoy when you can just play another? It is both a money and an attention span thing. (Not saying Asians have shorter attention spans, but you get my gist. The volume of free online games released in Asia is enormous.)
It's an interesting article, but it's a little disappointing to see the discussion go from when the next OSL will be to discussions that immediately assume SC2 is dying because of OSL's delay. It's just an opinion piece trying to speculate the current circumstances surrounding OSL, not an announcement from OGN dismembering their starcraft division, jeez.
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
I'm actually really interested in the numbers/money situation of SC2 right now. If you could, would you demonstrate the information on viewer counts you have? I understand the logic behind your statement, I would just like to see the proof.
If you watch the drunk State of the Game, they have Sundance on and he explains it all. That and they repeatedly talk about the current over saturation in the scene right now. I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other places too, but it's one in the morning right now so I can't be bothered finding them ^^ EDIT: Oh and to those moaning about HOTS here is Artosis' rather sensible take on it:http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/33810525615/sigh
Do you really think Artosis was gonna bitch on SC2? He's paid by GomTV which is helped by Blizzard. 1+1 = 2
He has posted this blog during the whole Destiny thing to calm things down. As much as I really like Artosis, I gave absolutely no honesty in that blog.
Do you really Artosis would blog about this if he didn't feel that way? That's just ridiculous. If he didn't mean what he said, he wouldn't have put his integrity on the line and lie like that. There was no obligation in the first place to voice his opinion like that.
Are you serious? Yes, Artosis would blog about it even if he didn't feel that way. He is a public figure, he represents GomTV.. therefore, his public opinions have to be in favor of his employer.
Jesus..
You act like Artosis is GOM's spokesperson, and that saveHotS had anything to do with GOM. It didn't, and it wasn't Artosis business before he made it so. To just outright be dishonest, unprovoked, in his personal blog is a ludicrous accusation. And it would be idiotic of Artosis to do that, he wouldn't risk the trust of the community like that, especially not when there's no need to. The cons outweighs the pros here, and I'm kind of shocked that you can't understand that.
Everyone was getting really pissed off about balance and the situation was spiralling out of control. His fucking livelihood depends on Starcraft having viewers and popularity, or course he's going to try to keep people from quitting starcraft.
On January 23 2013 04:10 Albinoswordfish wrote: There are a lot of reasons that BW was more popular than SC2 in Korea but I think the biggest reason is that there is no LAN. Actually this is the reason LoL is more popular than SC2. Blizzard wanted to make sure that everyone who played SC2 bought the game legitimately which meant more money in their pockets presumably. However in turn this has hurt the game's popularity a ton because now really only the "hardcore" gamers are familiar with the multi-player aspect of the game. In fact many people only buy the game for the campaign.
I remember my roommates and I used to play BW all together in our apartment all with pirated copies of BW using LAN. My friends were not hardcore SC fans but could play the game (for free) and have a blast doing it. Then we would watch BW pros like Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and be amazed at their skill.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Asian culture pirating games is a pretty common practice. The fact that Blizzard has made it very difficult to play SC2 through LAN with your friends without buying the game I think has made the game's popularity drop significantly in Korea/China.
There's no single "asian" culture. And even if there was, I don't think pirating would be that much more common than it is here. I think the bigger issue is the individual log-in required for SC2. For BW games each cyber cafe loaded BW onto their computers (whether legally or not is irrelevant here) and people just played it. In the SC2 days, you have to log in individually - it's much less friendly for a public-style computer like at a cyber cafe.
So you don't think the lack of ability to pirate the game has hurt the popularity in Korea and China?
Not really, no. For China it seems like more of a cost thing. If SC2 was $5, I bet it would be a lot more popular regardless of whether one could pirate it. (Whereas in the U.S. if it was $5, it'd probably be more popular but not the the same extent as China).
For Korea the big deal seems to be PC bangs. If the PC bangs could have 10 legal copies & let anyone who walks in use one of the legal copies - and let them log in to a separate account (like BW) so they can have a reasonable ladder experience, that would make a much bigger difference than the ability to pirate.
So yeah, if SC2 could be pirated it would be more popular. But not because it could be pirated. Because pirating means not having to pay for a personal account (rather than a PC bang version of the program). Or in the case of China, a cost more in line with average purchasing power.
I mean, heck, SC2 would probably be more popular in the U.S. if you could pirate it, for the reasons you mentioned. But I don't think that has anything to do with the game's popularity (or lack thereof) in Asia compared to the U.S.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
It's true. It's really easy to see too. As more and more tournaments are happening and more and more players are streaming not every person can watch all of that content. That leads to people picking their favorites and just watching those. Twitch reps have stated that viewership is UP, just more spread out than it used to be. Tournament organizers have talked about it, professional players have talked about it.
Picking on IdrA as an example for a moment .. He used to get tons of viewers, mostly because at the time he was one of the only foreign zerg players that was streaming and deemed worth watching. Now you can't throw a rock without hitting a player that streams and IdrA is less relevant in the scene than he once was. So the viewers are still there, just not watching the same people they were.
and what are the numbers for unique views of people who actually stay on a stream? Someone like me would be counted multiple times as I have multiple streams open at any given time(usually have 2 on my phone 1 on my extra monitor and 1 running on my laptop). Im actually only one viewer that is at most being counted 5 different times. What can I say, I enjoy watching tournaments(its so cool to have pro league vods running while watching hots koth and then some of my fav players personal streams.)
This isn't going to have a major effect. Fact of the matter is the vast majority of people only have one monitor, even in a tech-savvy community like SC2 fans. SC2 viewer numbers ARE going up. In early 2011, I remember being impressed that there were almost always at least 5000 people watching streams. Day9 would get 5k and crush anyone else streaming at the same time, Idra/Destiny would get 3k while Catz & the smaller streamers got 500 or so and moved the totals up to about 5k...
Now it's almost always more than that. For instance right now, at what is NOT a peak time for stream viewing, Idra has almost 1.5k viewers, Stephano has 6.5k viewers, BrakOk has 1k, Dimaga has 500, Sen has 2.7k and a host of players have a few hundred. And at the SAME TIME, the Go4SC2 finals is pulling in 3.5k between its German & Polish language streams. So ok, good time for europe... but that's well over 15k viewers - and Go4SC2 is not inflating this number by much!
So sure, some people's viewers are declining, like Idra's, but the day-in, day-out stream viewer numbers are certainly climbing. Is Day9's viewership changing? Not really. But he's no longer crushing everyone else streaming in his time slot - that's where the numbers are growing.
And how many viewers DOTA2 streams got yesterday? I saw 20k viewers.
On December 28 2012 11:32 purakushi wrote: While I did find SC2 fun for a while, it will not stand the test of time, even if there are 2 expansions. KESPA should just adopt SC2BW (and help finish developing the mod). >_<
Totally agree.. anyone who thinks Starcraft 2 will last more than 6-7 years are fooling themselves. This game doesn't have the depth nor the potential of Brood War. We have made thousands of posts about what should be changed ( not balance) but the only ones who can change the actual decline is Blizzard.. not the viewers, not the leagues, not the players, not the teams.
The game isn't even complete yet. Both SC1 and WC3 had their real take-off after the expansion. I guess we can extrapolate a bright future for SC2 with two expansions still to be released.
There was less than a year between the release of WC3 and its expansion, there is almost three years between the start of competitive SC2 and Heart of the Swarm. Any hype for SC2 has long died down by now with viewer numbers cut in half since last year. Furthermore, The Frozen Throne had more changes than Heart of the Swarm. (and imo, is likely the better game)
I don't know what happened to Blizzard, but it just seems so odd to me that they have doubled their development time and have gotten less results to show for it.
You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to viewer numbers, and the amount of time I've corrected people on this is getting ridiculous. Viewer counts are still rising, there's just so many tournaments the viewers are more spread out. Fr example, why would you give up your weekend to watch NASL, when you could watch IPL next week? Please actually check your facts before blindly jumping on the 'OMG SC2 IS DYING' bandwagon.
That just can't be true, viewer numbers are obviously down so much for so many streams/tournaments.
It's true. It's really easy to see too. As more and more tournaments are happening and more and more players are streaming not every person can watch all of that content. That leads to people picking their favorites and just watching those. Twitch reps have stated that viewership is UP, just more spread out than it used to be. Tournament organizers have talked about it, professional players have talked about it.
Picking on IdrA as an example for a moment .. He used to get tons of viewers, mostly because at the time he was one of the only foreign zerg players that was streaming and deemed worth watching. Now you can't throw a rock without hitting a player that streams and IdrA is less relevant in the scene than he once was. So the viewers are still there, just not watching the same people they were.
and what are the numbers for unique views of people who actually stay on a stream? Someone like me would be counted multiple times as I have multiple streams open at any given time(usually have 2 on my phone 1 on my extra monitor and 1 running on my laptop). Im actually only one viewer that is at most being counted 5 different times. What can I say, I enjoy watching tournaments(its so cool to have pro league vods running while watching hots koth and then some of my fav players personal streams.)
This isn't going to have a major effect. Fact of the matter is the vast majority of people only have one monitor, even in a tech-savvy community like SC2 fans. SC2 viewer numbers ARE going up. In early 2011, I remember being impressed that there were almost always at least 5000 people watching streams. Day9 would get 5k and crush anyone else streaming at the same time, Idra/Destiny would get 3k while Catz & the smaller streamers got 500 or so and moved the totals up to about 5k...
Now it's almost always more than that. For instance right now, at what is NOT a peak time for stream viewing, Idra has almost 1.5k viewers, Stephano has 6.5k viewers, BrakOk has 1k, Dimaga has 500, Sen has 2.7k and a host of players have a few hundred. And at the SAME TIME, the Go4SC2 finals is pulling in 3.5k between its German & Polish language streams. So ok, good time for europe... but that's well over 15k viewers - and Go4SC2 is not inflating this number by much!
So sure, some people's viewers are declining, like Idra's, but the day-in, day-out stream viewer numbers are certainly climbing. Is Day9's viewership changing? Not really. But he's no longer crushing everyone else streaming in his time slot - that's where the numbers are growing.
And how many viewers DOTA2 streams got yesterday? I saw 20k viewers.
What does Dota's success have to do with the success of SC2?
OSL in April is not a good idea from a spectator perspective. It's good in terms of the hype in April, but the metagame is still changing very fast at that time, so games may be boring or short.
On January 25 2013 12:22 larse wrote: OSL in April is not a good idea from a spectator perspective. It's good in terms of the hype in April, but the metagame is still changing very fast at that time, so games may be boring or short.
Considering that we are overdose with long, turtling, macro game now, short and cheesy play might be refreshing for awhile.
The betting scandal is why this really is declining. SC lost all the major investors after this scandal. It's why there is a hard time for SC2 to stay relevant. Broodwar was declining after that scandal broke and it appears that it still has not recovered from it.
EPT
I won't change to anything else ive been playing this since 1999 it became a part of me.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y6HzF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img1.fomos.kr/board/photo/1351334221_1.jpg)
