On January 02 2013 11:07 starfinder wrote: oh,don't forget give thanks to Dustin's galaxy editor,maybe he made a game not well,but the editor is awesome,isn't it ?
He most likely did not make the editor. It was probably a team of programmers who will never receive any appreciation or attention for what they have crafted.
....-_-
Until now!!!
LMFAO thank you and well played sir
hmm maybe if the races had their own macro mechanics? like protoss had MBS zerg has unlimited unit selection terran had automine
dunno if this would be IMBALANCED, just a thought
brood war has an amazing core design, but to never deviate from it (esp. given the entirely new implementation (engine) would be keeping it safe?). worth a try, maybe... but then again why mess with a classic? HMM TOUGH ONE
edit: terran up the night!
game design leads:
Michael Heiberg Matthew Morris
holy shit the cinematic artists list is long... gg money
On January 01 2013 10:29 insanet wrote: cmon guys, im waiting for a casted match, ZvT ideally.
Would love some casted matches. Come on aspiring casters!
Hmm, I'd cast a game or two for fun if people send me some good replays; might have to wait about a week or so though before parts for my new comp arrive so I can handle SC2 and Xsplit.
That would be awesome!
Count me in then! New PC parts should be here in about a week. Also, someone mentioned a tour for this, I'd be willing to assist and/or cast if that happens.
On January 02 2013 08:42 starfinder wrote: unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
Unlimited unit selection is one of the reasons why SC2 has the TERRIBLE deathball. So if you hate the deathball with a passion you must be for limited unit selection and any comments like "it's 2013 now" are just stupid. We have stock trading by computers deciding when to buy and sell and thus we also should have "autosplitting against Banelings" as an autmatism, right? Because it is technically possible.
I have to quote (approximately) something rather wise from Harry Potter: "You have to decide between what is RIGHT and what is EASY." Unlimited unit selection is just being lazy.
On January 02 2013 14:12 mishimaBeef wrote: hmm maybe if the races had their own macro mechanics? like protoss had MBS zerg has unlimited unit selection terran had automine
dunno if this would be IMBALANCED, just a thought
brood war has an amazing core design, but to never deviate from it (esp. given the entirely new implementation (engine) would be keeping it safe?). worth a try, maybe... but then again why mess with a classic? HMM TOUGH ONE
How about starting at the baseline of "original BW" and then advancing from that SLOWLY? People "want it all ... NOW" and that is stupid, because this mod isnt finished yet! Come back in a few years time with fanciful requiests ...
@Rabiator honestly i think deathball can be resolved without the unit selection limit, my current pathing does pretty well. my only issue with deathball is how effective it is when moving, it's ready to rock and roll at all times, if an enemy engages it, all units are there ready to fire. with my pathing the main benefit that comes from it is moving your army makes it vulnerable. it's a risk you take. while moving your army will start conga lining and is exposed to flanking.
obviously i need more data to state this concept as a success. it's still pretty lenient but we'll see.
Ways to fight the deathball syndrome imo: -Make units taking more space (like some sort of personal space xD). The problem with deathballs is that is is small enough to move easily everywhere in a very tight formation making it have incredible dps since everything fires almost at once. If unit take more space, less units will be able to fire at the same time, also they will have a harder time moving arround. -Give better AE mechanics so that it heavily punishes it. -Make the game so that units don't always end up in a ball while moving. -Make pathfinding suck again (won't happen...).
On January 02 2013 16:20 MavercK wrote: @Rabiator honestly i think deathball can be resolved without the unit selection limit, my current pathing does pretty well. my only issue with deathball is how effective it is when moving, it's ready to rock and roll at all times, if an enemy engages it, all units are there ready to fire. with my pathing the main benefit that comes from it is moving your army makes it vulnerable. it's a risk you take. while moving your army will start conga lining and is exposed to flanking.
obviously i need more data to state this concept as a success. it's still pretty lenient but we'll see.
The deathball I am scared of most is simple Terran Marine-Medic with a rather high ratio of Medics. Even in SC2 you have times when there is one Medivac per bio unit and they more or less stop dying. To not have something like this we really need a limited unit selection, because otherwise you would only be able to survive with lots of Lurkers or Siege Tanks and I dont think the Reaver can keep up with the potential aggression at all. You basically only need an Academy ... ONE Academy ... to start spamming Marines and Medics from the cheaply built Barracks, so thats a really fast danger. If you "anchor" this bio deathball on some Sieged Tanks you have a terribly dominating force that is too safe IMO.
Watching some BW games of "snipealot2" reminded me that there can be aggression all over the map and if you can easily grab all your units and go to one place that is gone forever and you cant defend everywhere and we are back at the "full armies dancing around each other" again.
On January 02 2013 16:26 rezoacken wrote: Ways to fight the deathball syndrome imo: -Make units taking more space (like some sort of personal space xD). The problem with deathballs is that is is small enough to move easily everywhere in a very tight formation making it have incredible dps since everything fires almost at once. If unit take more space, less units will be able to fire at the same time, also they will have a harder time moving arround. -Give better AE mechanics so that it heavily punishes it. -Make the game so that units don't always end up in a ball while moving. -Make pathfinding suck again (won't happen...).
1. Why not start at the full BW basics first? 2. Simply requiring "more space" looks easy enough to do, but it will introduce a "regular formation for units as SC2 has it ... just with holes inbetween" and thats not a good thing to have. It also prevents the use of micro to actively clump up your units. I used to spend a lot of time to arrange my Dragoons in BW in a perfectly tight clump just so I could get the maximum amount of units transported in a recall, but with wider units you simply dont have that option anymore. 3. There seems to be no need to make the movement suck again (as in BW) since Maverck has done an awesome job to make units spread out and "wiggle sideways" while moving.
I played 1 game where I got destroyed by a very large marine medic ball, probably around 25 marines and 8 medics in that clump. I do agree that unlimited selection shouldn't be default. But maybe multiple building selection and auto-mining as default?
even KT FLASH,the perfect terran in his peak,couldn't take every TVZ or TVP with M-M-F bio army,so I think even deathball is not undefendable, just we guys in sc2bw channel didn't know how to deal with correct way. what about wait for stream matches under the mod,to see how high level TPZ players perform?
I noticed that Marines tend to stop to shoot right when they get in range, rather than waiting, and still make perfect concaves when attack-moved in SC2BW compared to SC2. This may have something to do with your 'deathball syndrome.'
I don't really think any of us can say anything definitive about unlimited selection. There's such a small sample of players. In my mind, the skill discrepancy between players amounts to much more of a difference than unlimited selection.
I personally prefer to play with unlimited selection (having played sc2 competitively for 2 years). Being used to unlimited selection is not the only reason though. I can't play with limited selection the way it's implemented now (I understand maverck is limited in the implementation). The delay before units and buildings get deselected is too distracting for me.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's as huge of an issue as many paint it out to be. Many players (including me), prefer unlimited selection, and would be turned off by pure limited selection.
On January 02 2013 17:30 starfinder wrote: even KT FLASH,the perfect terran in his peak,couldn't take every TVZ or TVP with M-M-F bio army,so I think even deathball is not undefendable, just we guys in sc2bw channel didn't know how to deal with correct way. what about wait for stream matches under the mod,to see how high level TPZ players perform?
Bio works in TvZ, though it's more common nowadays to open bio (+1 5 rax most common) then mech switch as you get your third base.
Bio in TvP isn't really viable (unless your a crazy mofo like hiyA) except as a surprise timing attack, especially if the protoss skipped reavers and isn't going for super fast templar tech. Pure bio raps a no tech gateway army, but once storm comes...it just doesn't work. Marines die far to quick to even try and split against storm.
The deathball I am scared of most is simple Terran Marine-Medic with a rather high ratio of Medics. Even in SC2 you have times when there is one Medivac per bio unit and they more or less stop dying. To not have something like this we really need a limited unit selection, because otherwise you would only be able to survive with lots of Lurkers or Siege Tanks and I dont think the Reaver can keep up with the potential aggression at all. You basically only need an Academy ... ONE Academy ... to start spamming Marines and Medics from the cheaply built Barracks, so thats a really fast danger. If you "anchor" this bio deathball on some Sieged Tanks you have a terribly dominating force that is too safe IM
You need lurkers vs MnM ball. Pure lings won't cut it, though sometimes muta/ling flanks can deal with marine medic in reasonably low numbers. After that you must have lurkers or hive tech (defiler/ultra) or you will just die.
For protoss it's not a big deal, as long as the bio is unscouted. Reaver works okay, and once you have storm the bio-ball becomes completely obselete. The only real bio danger is "deep six" which is a 2 factory tank, 6 barracks attack off 2 bases. If the protoss doesn't see it coming in time and doesn't go reavers and/or rush out templar tech it's gg. Earlier bio timings aren't good as the numbers will still be small enough for goons to micro them down with tolerable efficiency.
In TvT marines are near worthless, except in some unique early aggression cases. Siege tanks DESTROY them so there is never a reason to get MnM army in a TvT.
What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
I personally don't think unlimited selection is such a big deal because AoE is so strong, and unlimited selection makes it harder to spread on demand; you can't go 1-click 2-click 3-click etc to spread, plus the not-AoE units have such limited range compared to the AoE units.
EPT
