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On January 03 2013 16:35 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote:
Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself. I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent. It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it. With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army. Limited unit selection is GOOD!
Ye, I think it is a stronger way to play. Because of that though I don't really think its an issue to allow unlimited selection. If people choose to group everything on one hotkey they aren't going to be able to control their army nearly as well, and will probably end up more blobbed anyway.
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On January 03 2013 16:46 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 16:35 Rabiator wrote:On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote:
Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself. I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent. It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it. With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army. Limited unit selection is GOOD! Ye, I think it is a stronger way to play. Because of that though I don't really think its an issue to allow unlimited selection. If people choose to group everything on one hotkey they aren't going to be able to control their army nearly as well, and will probably end up more blobbed anyway.
Even though the spirit may be willing the flesh will be weak ... meaning people will have a hard time playing with multiple groups after being dumbed down to a single control group in SC2. It is still far less work to use one control group and would give an easy advantage IMO with just a few units in a separate control group ... things like a swarm of Zerglings attacking under cover of Dark Swarm spread over "the whole battlefield" by just a handful of Defilers. I think Dark Swarm is balanced in part by the inability to control all Zerglings in one group. The only thing making this difficult is non-smart-cast, but that can be learned.
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On January 03 2013 16:35 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote:
Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself. I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent. It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it. With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army. Limited unit selection is GOOD!
I'm not sure I like the game forcing players to improve. One thing I've thought before us that in BW challenge was imposed onto the player more, which I think might be good be for casual players who just sit down and play, because it basically forces them to have fun. In SC2 you have to push yourself more to improve, you have to figure out how to win more, which I think might have some merit at the pro level. I think maybe a lot of pros aren't improving as quickly as they did in BW (JD for instance said SC2 was so relaxing that he would get lazy in-game or something like that,) but I think that might be fine, and some players will push themselves harder
For casual players, it might kinda suck. Since the interface doesn't challenge you, you either have to challenge yourself or be challenged by your opponent, which is hard because being "casual" kinda means you aren't going to be pushing yourself and with ladder matchmaking your opponent won't really be pushing you to play much better either. Playing games with people better than me made for some of my best experiences. On the other hand, maybe the casuals are content with being that casual and they don't need a lot of challenge, but will keep playing anyway. I guess I can remember a time when I was like that.
I'm not saying one or the other is better, but I see why either might be appealing.
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the only problem with this discussion right now.
BW's community, especially non-korean, is very small.
SC2BW's community is a fraction of that.
the hardcore community that want to play with limited selection etc, is another fraction.
yea i guess i could force settings like these. but do you want BW settings or do you actually want people to play with? 
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I don't see why would you force that out, hardcore BW community should... play BW not SC2 mod if you get what i mean  Leave it up to people.
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Russian Federation163 Posts
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I tried limited selection yesterday and it sucks big time. The limit on units is even OK, but it also turn off MBS. That is a no-no. This mod is fun because of all the cool BW units that are more fun then SC2 ones and balance of races is different. Also slower max of units and less deathballs.
But new SC2 UI changes should be standard (automine, MBS, and maybe unlimited selection, even smart casting). People that want to play real BW can go play real BW. I would guess most of us that want to play SC2BW want it for reasons I stated above.
At least combine smart casting with unlimited selection and put MBS as additional option. Why? Because unlimited selection makes dodging spells easier and smart casting makes casting spells easier. So both on, both sides have it easier, turn it off and both sides have is harder. And leave tedius macro mechanics of BW as additional option to turn Off/On (maybe even combine MBS with automine).
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It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2.
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On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote:
It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2.
Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO.
In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times.
In BW, it's a different story.
Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW.
It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch).
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On January 03 2013 17:42 MavercK wrote:the only problem with this discussion right now. BW's community, especially non-korean, is very small. SC2BW's community is a fraction of that. the hardcore community that want to play with limited selection etc, is another fraction. yea i guess i could force settings like these. but do you want BW settings or do you actually want people to play with?
This seems like that bucket problem that Blizzard has talked about. To many options can fragment the community, a problem rampant in the SC2 Arcade scene.
Nevertheless, its safe to say the MBS, Automining, etc... are SUCH contentious issues that to take away the option would upset a huge portion of the player base. These debates divided the community during SC2's development and would do so again. I think it should be strongly encouraged to play BW the BW way with BW controls, and that the game should be balanced around this. But I would leave the option their for those who really dont wish to play that way.
TLDR: Dont force settings, but encourage and balance around playing with BW settings.
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There was smart casting in Starcraft 64.. storm was really good.
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On January 03 2013 23:12 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote:
It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2. Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO. In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times. In BW, it's a different story. Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW. It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch).
Nobody cares if it is fun to watch. Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW. No players = no tournament = nobody watching.
I am not really sure what is the purpose of this map if it just wants to replicate BW. Anyone can play BW already. But people like me don't want to install it now and don't want to play exact BW replica in SC2 with all difficult mechanics. If this map will cater to hardcore BW fans it will not be popular ever because those people can have better BW experience by playing... BW
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just noticed this bug, but if you irradiate a science vessel, it does no damage to enemy units
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On January 04 2013 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 23:12 Goldfish wrote:On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote:
It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2. Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO. In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times. In BW, it's a different story. Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW. It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch). Nobody cares if it is fun to watch. Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW. No players = no tournament = nobody watching. I am not really sure what is the purpose of this map if it just wants to replicate BW. Anyone can play BW already. But people like me don't want to install it now and don't want to play exact BW replica in SC2 with all difficult mechanics. If this map will cater to hardcore BW fans it will not be popular ever because those people can have better BW experience by playing... BW
But there will be no players too when the game is imbalanced. Imagine smart casting defilers, just blanket the place with dark swarm and send 100 zerglings with ease against terran.
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On January 04 2013 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW.
Umm Im DYING to watch SC2BW.
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Nice work maverick!
I understand about being strictly replicating brood war, but you gotta at least turn on mbs and unlimited unit control. There are too many players who have played sc2. They will most likely not like how it is played and will just quit..
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unlimited selection+smart cast+mbs destroys balance. lings get too strong and zerg production is too easy. played against a friend zvt and always win with unlimited sel=on, but I'm like 20-80 when playing in BW mode (he has ~30% higher apm)
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My vote is to have default settings on complete BW mode but leave in the option to turn things to be more like SC2 for the more casual people who just want to play with BW units. From what I have witnessed, the large majority of people play full BW mode, anyway.
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On January 04 2013 03:38 purakushi wrote:
My vote is to have default settings on complete BW mode but leave in the option to turn things to be more like SC2 for the more casual people who just want to play with BW units. From what I have witnessed, the large majority of people play full BW mode, anyway.
They are only ones that play. I tried to find games on EU, only one person replies and he wanted full BW. This explains why nobody is playing anyways. I am sorry Maverick but I don't see your effort being returned with many people playing as it is now.
Then I played against friend of mine and he barely wants to play with no BW mechanics. No deathballs and funky movement of units is what kills it for him (and he is not even a regular sc2 player; I don't see how this map can ever bring in regular players).
So this map can be done for hardcore BW that can play BW at anytime or it can be made for people similar to me that are not satisfied with SC2 but don't want to play BW as well (because I would be playing it already). That is why I wonder what is the purpose of this map?!
I don't agree that this map needs to replicate BW completely to fix problems of SC2 of deathball play and too fast 200/200 while promoting defensive play. When I played with no BW macro options ON the game was much different then SC2, we both harassed each other, we didn't have a single 200/200 battle and we both tried to expand around the map and deny expansions. We both needed to micro or lose everything fast, there was no A-moving involved. And this is coming from a Platinum SC2 players. Something that I don't see in SC2 in platinum (which is cheese or amove deathballs).
On January 04 2013 02:58 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW.
Umm Im DYING to watch SC2BW.
Good for you. My nobody statement was meant to emphasize the small number of people that are going to be watching.
But tell my why are you not watching BW streams? Why would this be preferable to watching BW streams?
I could understand your wish if there was no more BW to watch but there are. And this map does not replicate BW totally and is less fun to watch then real BW (I watch BW sometimes and don't see how it would be more fun to watch this).
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On January 04 2013 03:34 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
unlimited selection+smart cast+mbs destroys balance. lings get too strong and zerg production is too easy. played against a friend zvt and always win with unlimited sel=on, but I'm like 20-80 when playing in BW mode (he has ~30% higher apm) Agreed, great example, thanks. BW is already (perfectly) balanced with all of its features, obviously changing any fundamental feature to be more like SC2 would actually imbalance it, because different races would benefit differently.
In my view, the purpose of SC2BW is to be able to play inside SC2 client (some people still have tech problems with BW installations), to enjoy all the replay features and data that you can analyse in real time, to have your Bnet 2.0 friends in the chat there, to perhaps enjoy full HD 3D graphics (if you are like that - personally that doesn't matter to me) etc. The purpose is not to play some imbalanced simplified version of BW, imho.
Yes, macroing without MBS is difficult. But that's the fun of it! And don't worry, if it's difficult for you, it's also difficult for your opponent. It forces you to make a lot more complicated decisions in your multitasking, about how much time to divide between macro and micro, fully realizing that it won't be perfect at all.
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EPT
