EPTLings of Liberty: The Rise of the Patchzergs - Page 31
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blank92
United States4 Posts
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Azaryah
United States55 Posts
You want a real reason for Zerg domination over Terran? Ghost Snipe nerf. Didn't need to happen. Now you have a unit that was once immensely important to the match up; providing a buffer against Ultralisk/Broodlord switching and being able to EMP Infestors, now relegated to only being seen in TvP. In ZvP, after Zerg's Neural Parasite nerf, it took several months before there was any stable late game strategy against Protoss. What was left was gimmicky all ins or max out Roaches with burrow upgrades, both of which don't work reliably against a Protoss who has good scouting. Then came the rise of Mutalisk base racing style, it had existed before but was not so heavily used in the pro scene, and even though it was now part of pro games it still wasn't used the most. Then we saw DRG use the incredibly micro intensive Ling + Roach + Muta; which involved upgrading attacks for all three units and constant harassment micro at 2 or 3 locations. This style is extremely hard to pull off and amazing to see when it works, and for the time it seemed to be the only answer to Protoss. Then, just a few short months later, Stephano's ZvP arrived, and made everything else look terrible. Here the main thing you need to remember - all Zergs could have been playing like Stephano the day after 1.1.2 back in October of 2010, when Fungal Growth was buffed to stop blink. ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.2 ) Arguably the 8 second duration made it better for trapping Stalkers vs a Broodlord army. It was patched again in 1.3.0, changing the duration from 8 seconds to 4, and upping the damage dealt in that time. This was when people were calling Fungal Growth the 'better' version of Psi Strorm, despite that it didn't deal the same amount of damage. The next patch to touch Fungal Growth, 1.4.0, also nerfed that damage. Guess what? Zergs still weren't winning more than any other race. The 'Patch Zerg' complaints are coming from 1.4.3 BU in May 2012, as though doing anything to the Queen or Overlord really makes it so much harder. OP does mention the 'true origin of patch Zergs' (lol) being March 22nd 2011, however since he is absolutely wrong it matters little. It took Zergs over a year of balance changes and map changes to have a decent winning percentage against Protoss and Terrans. OVER A YEAR. The build was possible for that long and no one knew they could do it. The game takes time to figure things out. Guess what? Protoss started to figure out Zerg too. Check out the MLG games of Oz vs Stephano, Oz made him look like a scrub! And none of our foreign Zergs could beat Parting at BWC. What makes OP even worse is that he or she is including Zerg wins BEFORE ANY OF THIS WAS STANDARD, in his/her "Full List of Foreigner wins over Koreans in non-mirrors." Are you fucking kidding me, OP? Your going to include Idra 2-0 MC from MLG Columbus 2011?! You can't make any 'Patch Zerg' claims on that match where maps like Xel'Naga caverns and Metalopolis were still in use! And then 11 out of the 35 ZvP examples are Stephano. Almost 1/3 of foreign Zerg victories over Koreans in major lans are him! THE Zerg who pioneered this style of play. THEN the list of Foreign victories in PvT is 45, blowing the largest hole in OP's statement that foreigners are somehow just 'bad' and only foreign Zergs win over Koreans because IMBA. (Granted 7 are Naniwa, so you also see the best foreign Protoss skewed this number). The ZvT list is 43, with 19 being Stephano, again almost 1/3 going to one person. What does this show? 2 Foreigners are amazing at this game and people who copy them do well. OP's assertion that the patch is so 'white people can beat Koreans' is the most ridiculous trash I have ever heard. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:28 corpuscle wrote: DRG also happened to lose like all of his drones to hellions and got all his infestors trapped by tanks, but whatever You mean Infestors can be indirectly countered by economy sabotage and directly countered by good unit positioning!? What!?!?! | ||
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X-baz
9 Posts
My complaint is that Terran is suppose to be good in the Early-Mid game and weak in the late game......I for one haven't seen any game recently where Terran did some early or mid strat that won. So yes, Terran is suppose to be good early-mid, but unless you hid your proxy 2 rax really well, thats just not the case. And I remember when Blizzard nerfed the ghost, their reasoning was it was a unit that countered too many things in TvZ......it was a safe unit to choose, okay Blizzard. I hear ya. Oh, but wait, please tell me a situation where the Infestor isn't a good unit to have? What really sucks is that Zergs are winning a lot of the time without even using Queen's transfuse on broodlords, which used to be the polar opposite of the ghost snipe, they just don't even need to use Queen transfuse anymore. You'd say we'll just see in HOTS, but lets all be honest with ourselves, Terran is gonna get fucked with patches because Zergs just hate losing (I mean look at all these obvious zergs trying to argue that zerg is a balanced race). The OP may be joking about the situation (what else can you do?) but for people who have seen it, it's not really something to laugh about. I love Starcraft, but I hate Zerg. Playing as them, or against them. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Had koreans made it out to foreigner tournaments in as great numbers as they're doing now during the first year of SC2's existence, you'd have seen a similar large amount of undeserved Tv(KoreanNonTerran) wins in those time periods. From then on Blizzard continually nerfed everything that had to do with offense, and buffed a few things needed for defense. Every early timing that was popular to abuse got nerfed. Protoss, and zerg in particular, booned greatly from increased stim research times, increased barrack build times, increased immortal range, decreased blue flame damage, increased blink research time, decreased ground upgrade costs (protoss), decreased EMP radius, increased warp gate research time, decreased sentry build time, decreased spore root time, decreased EMP effectivity (-100 energy instead of all), khaydarian removed, hp increased on zerg buildings, increased queen range, increased roach range, nitro packs require factory, nerf ghost snipe, nerf mule on gold minerals. Except the infestor which was buffed (8 second to 4 second stun duration), fungal stops blink, +dmg vs armored. At the time these changes were done though, they were sorely needed. Now I don't disagree with Terran being the hardest race. They are. I do however disagree with the view that things "used to be better". The view that Blizzard right now moreso than before are enabling "patchforeigners". My strong view is that Starcraft II had all these flaws built in from the beginning. Blizzard sensibly doing their best to nerf the crap out of every abusive timing shouldn't be put forth as the "reason" things have gone to shit once gameplay stabilized and settled. In February 2011, I posted my analysis of macro thread, where I made the following prediction of the evolution of gameplay in a game with a 3 base ceiling: Large maps will simply and frankly favor the race that currently has the pleasure of being dominant when maxed out in a 3base vs. 3base late game situation. That race, as you’ll see, will be Protoss. And please don’t mistake this for whine; it’s merely stating what should be obvious. On the other end, the same maps will likely disfavor the previous most stable performing tournament race on blizzard-sized maps: Terran. As you may have noticed, I was wrong about which race it was that would ultimately become dominant. But bear in mind this was written BEFORE khaydarian nerf, BEFORE the infestor buff, and before a wide range of nerfs to various timing attacks. I do not believe I was wrong in stating Protoss would have been the dominant race if the balance had been kept unchanged. Those were some really really dominant months for Protoss. What is my point? Your approach in bashing Blizzard's patching policy is wrong. The fault is in the fundamental game design itself.
Protoss have had a slightly higher winrate in PvZ the past months however much infestor whine that has been going around. If Blizzard mess with the infestor in a way that shiftes the "strongest late game composition" balance, it might have some drastically unexpected results on game balance. So what is the solution? + Show Spoiler + Starcraft II Brood War!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
Second - in SC the game all depends what YOU are doing, in DOTA that your team doing. So SC providing personal skill, and that's amazing! Ye, ZERG race need some little nerf in ZvT, i say it as a zerg player... but it seems that good balance we will see only in HOTS  | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Chaves
Brazil315 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:45 President Dead wrote: You mean Infestors can be indirectly countered by economy sabotage and directly countered by good unit positioning!? What!?!?! No. They are counted by the zerg walking all his units into the terran base with no way to escape. It was just DRG making a terrible decision with no retreat option. I'm sure Ver will certainly agree that if you a-move your infestors, they won't be a problem. The issue is when you actually USE them to do something. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:45 President Dead wrote: You mean Infestors can be indirectly countered by economy sabotage and directly countered by good unit positioning!? What!?!?! DRG played fucking terrible that game, I don't think you want to use it as evidence. He brought four queens to the third on Ohana with no creep spread and the rocks up to deal with a single banshee, so Flash went "...um okay that wasn't smart" and killed him. | ||
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Canx
Singapore85 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Griffins
United States98 Posts
Wanted to compliment Ver on having each section header correspond to a Star Wars movie, well played, and for the excellent usage of graphs. I personally liked the use of subtle humor to mask our NA terran saltiness, which peeks through charmingly despite the overall light-heartedness of the piece. However, I wish you used less screen caps of Leenock fungaling people to death, since we love the Leenocktopus and do not wish to see him nerfed. Instead, you should have posted more caps of Sniper, seeing that he is a lightning rod for zerg-directed hate anyway. Keep on writing, friend. Cheers! | ||
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Young Terran
United Kingdom265 Posts
But overall it was a good read and was pretty amusing but seriously the infestor needs to be removed loved ling/bane/muta | ||
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bri9and
United States246 Posts
The infestor is OP and tournament results of Koreans vs non tell the tale. It gives players who are weaker a chance to win on the basis of one unit.. | ||
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MarchToRuin
United States2 Posts
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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FinalForm
United States450 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:10 MarchToRuin wrote: Yeah, because all i do is A move my infestor broodlord army and win.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA riiggghhttt.....Try facing a 5 base terran with nothing but thors and blue flame hellion as zerg then come talk to me. make some brood lords? you have to split them a bit , i kno aint it rediculous | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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