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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:12 Figgy wrote: Am I the only one missing the most obvious balance fix? Remove Pathogen Glands. Voila! I agree a lot. Storm was far too strong -> Khal'darim amulet was removed. Look at PvT now: It's a pretty balanced matchup, sometimes very dynamic. Positioning of HTs is a key element in the lategame. But TvZ ? We cannot talk about balance here. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:12 Figgy wrote: Am I the only one missing the most obvious balance fix? Remove Pathogen Glands. Voila! It's now much harder to go straight into Infestor without going Muta or Roach first without dying but they still have the same final end game impact as before. I thought about this, I like the idea/concept, but not how it would work in practice. For example, Protoss has certain timing attacks that are only really holdable because the first infestors pop with energy for fungal, or accumulate enough energy with the initial boost of pathogen glands to hold it. I mean, as it is Infestors aren't out for stuff like the Immortal/Sentry push, so even if Infestors were nerfed into the ground that kind of timing would be unaffected. However, later timings like blinkstalker/immortal pushes that Rain does would be even harder for Zerg to defend. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:12 Figgy wrote: Am I the only one missing the most obvious balance fix? Remove Pathogen Glands. Voila! It's now much harder to go straight into Infestor without going Muta or Roach first without dying but they still have the same final end game impact as before. So you attack something that is fine - midgame zerg defense - and keep endgame superzergarmy equally strong. Wohoo, finally zerg has to turtle harder... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:15 Bahajinbo wrote: I agree a lot. Storm was far too strong -> Khal'darim amulet was removed. Look at PvT now: It's a pretty balanced matchup, sometimes very dynamic. Positioning of HTs is a key element in the lategame. But TvZ ? We cannot talk about balance here. The concept of having enough energy for storm was not why KA was removed. It was that Templars can be warped in anywhere, but with storm available. The two aren't equivalent at all in that respect. If Templars, for sake of argument came from the Robo, they would still have KA. Actually pretty sad I wasn't an active player in the times that that existed, I would have been a monster  | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:11 BigO wrote: Someone with a little time on their hands should really check up on what the race distribution on ALL major tournaments from like the round of 16 or something are for the last couple of months. It just feels like Blizzard can't have their statistics right. Would just be fun to see what numbers they consider balanced at the very top level. The GSL has very balanced statistics! Note that zerg actually has been able to win at least 20 (of 50) games without brood lords! They were probably forced to use like.. tier one units too. It's horribly underwhelming to play zerg nowadays. wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_5/Code_S_Statistics | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:12 Big J wrote: Hm... Do I hope for a firm that has managed to make a worse game out of a cool WC3 funmap? Valve on the other hand...  Sc2 definitely needs competition with other 1v1 RTS games. | ||
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yolteotl
France76 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:13 Wombat_NI wrote: No he's 100% right? Blizzard got slaughtered by the SC community, especially on TL for patching too frequently, and nerfing Terran too much. Now when Blizzard, whose representatives have said on numerous occasions that they don't want to patch as much, but let us figure it out, the community is bitching that they AREN'T patching. If Blizzard come out and say, 'Infestor is fine, no changes' by all means go and flame them. However they've said that they view the infestor as an issue, and they're trying to address it. It's got nothing to do with being anti-Terran, pro-Zerg or anything, it's a manifestation of a change in patching philosophy. You're right, but it's too late. They killed every single terran strategy, without letting a try for Zerg / Protoss to counter it. How many BO was created in terran before Blizzard changed its patching philosophy ? A lot. How many after ? 0. Terrans stay on Hellion / Banshee, even it's useless in 80 % of TvZ, cause there isn't other "viable" strategy. If Blizzard don't do anything, TvZ will stay at 70 % for Zerg (31 TvZ in IPL, 21 wings for Zerg) for months (until hots, and maybe after...) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:27 Teoita wrote: Valve on the other hand... Sc2 definitely needs competition with other 1v1 RTS games.Yeah, some competition would be nice. I would actually be fine with an editor that is useful... | ||
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler + Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:45 Frankenberry wrote: The raven change doesn't really solve anything tbh. Its a small buff, that wont really change endgame significantly tbh. I might be wrong. Time will tell x) I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfM54hJH8gg Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
I like the raven change. It mainly buffy the incorporation of few ravens (but not that much mass raven), which is a good thing. | ||
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imPermanenCe
Netherlands595 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:12 Figgy wrote: Am I the only one missing the most obvious balance fix? Remove Pathogen Glands. Voila! It's now much harder to go straight into Infestor without going Muta or Roach first without dying but they still have the same final end game impact as before. Yes, late game mass infestor still imba. Nothing solved. edit: although I'm not sure anymore what exactly is imba about them anymore, seems like everyone has a different opinion. | ||
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flexgd
183 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 22:18 imPermanenCe wrote: Yes, late game mass infestor still imba. Nothing solved. edit: although I'm not sure anymore what exactly is imba about them anymore, seems like everyone has a different opinion. And hence why they're tough to balance. I believe infestors are imbalanced due to being too good, in too many roles, without corresponding weaknesses. Something like the marine, yeah it's a really really strong unit, especially in MKP's hands, but at least it's got a discernible weakness to AoE damage and AoE spells. If we as a community can't even agree on why/to what degree they're imbalanced/flawed, why are we bitching at Blizzard's approach to them so much? That's what I don't understand. People are throwing out solutions, many of them good if they were potentially implemented, instinct tells me. However, changes that instinctively seem good, can have far-reaching effects. The change to the Thor's strike cannon and giving it energy was something at the time I welcomed, given that some of those Thor rushes were bullshit. However it really neutered mech against P, a style that was already not really all that viable. Now consider that Infestors are a hell of a lot more integral to Zerg than Thors are to T, and also that the Thor change was to fix one single ability. Infestors have 3 abilities, and other attributes that make them good, including synergy with certain comps, and their ability to burrow and move. I'd rather Blizzard take their sweet, sweet time if that is to get it right. If they don't change anything, or if their final changes that go into a patch (and not the test map) are terrible, then by all means bitch away folks! I'll be right there with you. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On December 01 2012 21:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. In PvZ the change isn't that big and luckily Creator and Rain showed the Protoss community some great 3 base pushes to punish Zerg before the can get to BL/infestor. But TvZ is really fucked up since the last patch. I really see it like that: Change queens as they were before the patch (current overlord speed is still great, I think) or keep the queens but nerf fungal. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 22:23 flexgd wrote: how about making corruptors psionic and spawn with full energy and morphing to a broodlord would cost like 50 or 75 energy.that way ghosts and hts could halt the bl production a little so the zerg cant immediately morph anothrr round of broods with the corruptors he retained in a fight. if theinfestor is too hard to balance why not look at the other half of thr Z lategame comp Interesting idea, kind of weird but I suppose that's sometimes good to think of stuff like that. There's next to no point in balancing BL/Infestor by looking at the Brood lord as a way to do that though. Infestors are the only reason Broods are actually so good, especially in the case of ZvP. I mean, maybe in terms of production time, or how they're produced? For example, I suppose the equivalent capital ships take ages to build, take tons of extra tech, and can only be produced one at a time from their respective Protoss/Terran structure. Broodlords for some reason morph faster than both, even though these other factors are in play. I guess you could maybe look at that? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On December 01 2012 22:33 Bahajinbo wrote: You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. In PvZ the change isn't that big and luckily Creator and Rain showed the Protoss community some great 3 base pushes to punish Zerg before the can get to BL/infestor. But TvZ is really fucked up since the last patch. I really see it like that: Change queens as they were before the patch (current overlord speed is still great, I think) or keep the queens but nerf fungal. The one thing I don't get, is why the Queen/OL change was made WHEN it was. Zergs weren't struggling, if I recall it was 49-51 in Korea, or something a little less close than that. This is the one thing I sympathise with the 'anti-Terran conspiracy' guys on. I mean, Terran is balanced a lot around Korean Terrans, to a degree that I don't see happening with the equivalent Korean Toss/Zerg players. There's other small things it does to PvZ that I hate. For example, you can't really do cute, really small pressures that do anything anymore. Little Zealot/Stalker pokes were a cool little (tiny) pressure that Protoss players could do, but now Queens can kite Zealots on creep so you can't even hope to exploit greed. Before, you would have guys who would skip lings almost entirely, so there was a tiny window to maybe snipe a queen if you microed well. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. You forgot something : the buff happened at the time terran discovered the triple CC build. Which zerg had to counter blindly by attacking with roaches without even knowing if the terran was doing triple CC or not. That was not balanced at all. Thats why blizzard said : ok now, as terran can macro up safely, zerg will macro up safely too. Its justice. The problem is not queen patch, terran just play macro now and its ok. The problem is the fungle in TvZ which is breaking the game (too much punishment for not splitting your marines for 1 second) and IT in PvZ (were 25 infestors can spawn a 200 units army to support his broods...) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 01 2012 22:40 Wombat_NI wrote: The one thing I don't get, is why the Queen/OL change was made WHEN it was. Zergs weren't struggling, if I recall it was 49-51 in Korea, or something a little less close than that. This is the one thing I sympathise with the 'anti-Terran conspiracy' guys on. I mean, Terran is balanced a lot around Korean Terrans, to a degree that I don't see happening with the equivalent Korean Toss/Zerg players. There's other small things it does to PvZ that I hate. For example, you can't really do cute, really small pressures that do anything anymore. Little Zealot/Stalker pokes were a cool little (tiny) pressure that Protoss players could do, but now Queens can kite Zealots on creep so you can't even hope to exploit greed. Before, you would have guys who would skip lings almost entirely, so there was a tiny window to maybe snipe a queen if you microed well. Because blizzard considered Terran allins sich as Marauder/helliin, marine/hellion as a problem. They always said they dont solely balance for winrates, and I guess that is an instance of this. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Protoss pressure not being as effective at a high level is a combination of 1) timings being known far better by Zerg (4Gate zealot isn't nearly as good as it was one year ago for example), 2) the efficiency of Zerg units on creep against Protoss stuff without forcefields 3) the absolute need of about 6 fast sentries and one immortal on any build that plans to take a third safely (not as relevant anymore since Zergs prefer turtling to midgame pressure for obvious reasons, but still meaningful). 4) using sentries to pressure a Zerg is incredibly risky. This means that there can not be a ZvP equivalent of the Terran's medivac timing in TvP, where if the P screws up or is being greedy he gets punished, otherwise the game can proceed evenly from there. Also, i find it ridicolous that Zerg defensive capabilities at this point are so strong, there are literally zero two base timings in TvZ. At least Protoss has Immortal/Sentry, plus a few extra gimmicky/outdated builds that can work once in a while if you fake the Zerg out. | ||
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