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I'd rather have a longer tvz midgame with some sort of fungal nerf.. Raven change is still good though.
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So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them?
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On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them?
Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was?
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On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was?
A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend.
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On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was?
The better player :o
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On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was?
Oh wow, Taeja and Hero beat up a bunch of foreigners, that changes everything!
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On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend.
Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs.
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On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs.
Not compared to Taeja and Hero they aren't. There was no Symbol, Life, Leenock, Sniper, DRG, or anyone that could be called a top tier Zerg.
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On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs.
Good but not best. There was no notable Korean Zergs. You can't deny that Koreans, generally speaking, are on another level.
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On December 02 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Not compared to Taeja and Hero they aren't. There was no Symbol, Life, Leenock, Sniper, DRG, or anyone that could be called a top tier Zerg.
But Snute even beat life!
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On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs.
There is a difference between world's best and good. Look at IPL5. There are tons of zergs left in Ro12 (7/12). And the players you mentioned aren't one of them.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs.
Totally comparable to Taeja and HerO right?
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On December 02 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Not compared to Taeja and Hero they aren't. There was no Symbol, Life, Leenock, Sniper, DRG, or anyone that could be called a top tier Zerg.
To be fair, in the current "meta game" there are quite a few foreign Zerg players that are really close to being "top" players. Beating Nerchio or Snute is no small feat even for players like Taeja and Hero.
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On December 02 2012 00:14 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 22:58 Surriel wrote:On December 01 2012 22:44 Insoleet wrote:On December 01 2012 21:45 Frankenberry wrote:The raven change doesn't really solve anything tbh. Its a small buff, that wont really change endgame significantly tbh. I might be wrong. Time will tell x) I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler +) Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. You forgot something : the buff happened at the time terran discovered the triple CC build. Which zerg had to counter blindly by attacking with roaches without even knowing if the terran was doing triple CC or not. That was not balanced at all. Thats why blizzard said : ok now, as terran can macro up safely, zerg will macro up safely too. Its justice. The problem is not queen patch, terran just play macro now and its ok. The problem is the fungle in TvZ which is breaking the game (too much punishment for not splitting your marines for 1 second) and IT in PvZ (were 25 infestors can spawn a 200 units army to support his broods...) Are you sure you are not getting mixed up here? The 3 CCs build was only popularized after the queen patch as a way for Terran to catch up on economy with Zergs. I remember during this period a lot of experimentation also went into place mainly ultilizing the Banshees to combat creepspread. Of course there were players using the 3ccs build before the patch but it surely was not the bread and butter build. No, 3 CC builds were around earlier. I distinctly remember a series of MKP vs DRG where MKP either went an early allin such as marauder/hellion or 3 CCs/2 ebay off 1 rax/1 fact. The problem was that for Zerg the visible difference was zero. There were hellions on the edge of your creep and a few marines at the edge of the terran base. That was MLG Winter, ie way before the Queen patch. By the way, over the 5 GSL before the Queen patch, there were a total of 4 Zergs in 5 Ro8s 4 out of 40. But sure, everything was fine and dandy in SC2 before that patch. Selective memory is a wonderful thing.
exactly this. people who are crying about queen and overlord buff are completely ignoring the fact that overlordscouting wasnt possible on bigger maps and 1 marine/stalker denying all scouting. also people seem to forget that 4 helions parked outside of the base with 0 apm made for terrible games and in lots of cases terran had a faster 3rd base than the zerg which was seen in terrible winrates for zerg.
there is absolutely no problem in nerfing the infestor but talking about reversing the overlord and queen buff is beyond stupid.
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On December 02 2012 00:56 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Totally comparable to Taeja and HerO right?
Comparable to TaeJa.
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On December 02 2012 01:22 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:14 Nourek wrote:On December 01 2012 22:58 Surriel wrote:On December 01 2012 22:44 Insoleet wrote:On December 01 2012 21:45 Frankenberry wrote:The raven change doesn't really solve anything tbh. Its a small buff, that wont really change endgame significantly tbh. I might be wrong. Time will tell x) I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfM54hJH8gg ) Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. You forgot something : the buff happened at the time terran discovered the triple CC build. Which zerg had to counter blindly by attacking with roaches without even knowing if the terran was doing triple CC or not. That was not balanced at all. Thats why blizzard said : ok now, as terran can macro up safely, zerg will macro up safely too. Its justice. The problem is not queen patch, terran just play macro now and its ok. The problem is the fungle in TvZ which is breaking the game (too much punishment for not splitting your marines for 1 second) and IT in PvZ (were 25 infestors can spawn a 200 units army to support his broods...) Are you sure you are not getting mixed up here? The 3 CCs build was only popularized after the queen patch as a way for Terran to catch up on economy with Zergs. I remember during this period a lot of experimentation also went into place mainly ultilizing the Banshees to combat creepspread. Of course there were players using the 3ccs build before the patch but it surely was not the bread and butter build. No, 3 CC builds were around earlier. I distinctly remember a series of MKP vs DRG where MKP either went an early allin such as marauder/hellion or 3 CCs/2 ebay off 1 rax/1 fact. The problem was that for Zerg the visible difference was zero. There were hellions on the edge of your creep and a few marines at the edge of the terran base. That was MLG Winter, ie way before the Queen patch. By the way, over the 5 GSL before the Queen patch, there were a total of 4 Zergs in 5 Ro8s 4 out of 40. But sure, everything was fine and dandy in SC2 before that patch. Selective memory is a wonderful thing. exactly this. people who are crying about queen and overlord buff are completely ignoring the fact that overlordscouting wasnt possible on bigger maps and 1 marine/stalker denying all scouting. also people seem to forget that 4 helions parked outside of the base with 0 apm made for terrible games and in lots of cases terran had a faster 3rd base than the zerg which was seen in terrible winrates for zerg. there is absolutely no problem in nerfing the infestor but talking about reversing the overlord and queen buff is beyond stupid.
And yet Zerg had about a 46-47% ZvT winrate in GSL before the buffs. Hellions parked outside the base were actually not a problem if Zerg would have stopped sitting with their thumbs up their asses, refusing to invest in roaches AT ALL. Even then, however, the only real issues with TvZ was the confusion brought by the Terran either going for a hellion banshee all-in, marauder hellion all-in, or a quick 3rd. The overord buff fixed that, then they buffed the queen too.
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On December 02 2012 01:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Not compared to Taeja and Hero they aren't. There was no Symbol, Life, Leenock, Sniper, DRG, or anyone that could be called a top tier Zerg. To be fair, in the current "meta game" there are quite a few foreign Zerg players that are really close to being "top" players. Beating Nerchio or Snute is no small feat even for players like Taeja and Hero.
But that is exactly what people are complaining about. Somehow foreign zergs, after the queen patch (and only foreign zergs, no foreign protoss or terran), are capable of consistently beating some of the accepted best players in the world. Hero and Taeja are mainstays in Code S, but yet now previously decent zergs are able to beat them? That is why everyone believes there is imbalance in the game post-queenpatch.
On December 02 2012 01:40 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 01:22 Decendos wrote:On December 02 2012 00:14 Nourek wrote:On December 01 2012 22:58 Surriel wrote:On December 01 2012 22:44 Insoleet wrote:On December 01 2012 21:45 Frankenberry wrote:The raven change doesn't really solve anything tbh. Its a small buff, that wont really change endgame significantly tbh. I might be wrong. Time will tell x) I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfM54hJH8gg ) Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. You forgot something : the buff happened at the time terran discovered the triple CC build. Which zerg had to counter blindly by attacking with roaches without even knowing if the terran was doing triple CC or not. That was not balanced at all. Thats why blizzard said : ok now, as terran can macro up safely, zerg will macro up safely too. Its justice. The problem is not queen patch, terran just play macro now and its ok. The problem is the fungle in TvZ which is breaking the game (too much punishment for not splitting your marines for 1 second) and IT in PvZ (were 25 infestors can spawn a 200 units army to support his broods...) Are you sure you are not getting mixed up here? The 3 CCs build was only popularized after the queen patch as a way for Terran to catch up on economy with Zergs. I remember during this period a lot of experimentation also went into place mainly ultilizing the Banshees to combat creepspread. Of course there were players using the 3ccs build before the patch but it surely was not the bread and butter build. No, 3 CC builds were around earlier. I distinctly remember a series of MKP vs DRG where MKP either went an early allin such as marauder/hellion or 3 CCs/2 ebay off 1 rax/1 fact. The problem was that for Zerg the visible difference was zero. There were hellions on the edge of your creep and a few marines at the edge of the terran base. That was MLG Winter, ie way before the Queen patch. By the way, over the 5 GSL before the Queen patch, there were a total of 4 Zergs in 5 Ro8s 4 out of 40. But sure, everything was fine and dandy in SC2 before that patch. Selective memory is a wonderful thing. exactly this. people who are crying about queen and overlord buff are completely ignoring the fact that overlordscouting wasnt possible on bigger maps and 1 marine/stalker denying all scouting. also people seem to forget that 4 helions parked outside of the base with 0 apm made for terrible games and in lots of cases terran had a faster 3rd base than the zerg which was seen in terrible winrates for zerg. there is absolutely no problem in nerfing the infestor but talking about reversing the overlord and queen buff is beyond stupid. And yet Zerg had about a 46-47% ZvT winrate in GSL before the buffs. Hellions parked outside the base were actually not a problem if Zerg would have stopped sitting with their thumbs up their asses, refusing to invest in roaches AT ALL. Even then, however, the only real issues with TvZ was the confusion brought by the Terran either going for a hellion banshee all-in, marauder hellion all-in, or a quick 3rd. The overord buff fixed that, then they buffed the queen too.
I think most people agree somewhat with this, that the prospect of being all-in'd without knowing was the real problem of the hellion opening (most top level zergs were fine with shutting down hellions, in fact stephano always built a roach warren and invested in roaches to shut down hellions, and he was dominant in tvz). The queen buff fixes the ability to stop the all-in without knowing, and the overlord buff gave them the ability to know it was coming. It was previously stated earlier in this thread that either one of those buffs would have been good enough, and everyone agreed one of the buffs should have gone through. But both of them is what really tipped the scales too much.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 02 2012 01:37 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:56 Teoita wrote:On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Totally comparable to Taeja and HerO right? Comparable to TaeJa.
Stop embarassing yourself.
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On December 02 2012 01:40 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 01:22 Decendos wrote:On December 02 2012 00:14 Nourek wrote:On December 01 2012 22:58 Surriel wrote:On December 01 2012 22:44 Insoleet wrote:On December 01 2012 21:45 Frankenberry wrote:The raven change doesn't really solve anything tbh. Its a small buff, that wont really change endgame significantly tbh. I might be wrong. Time will tell x) I feel QXC, Darkforce and Todd gave some really spot on insight on the problems of PvZ and TvZ lategame (Episode 76, + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfM54hJH8gg ) Basically zerg's early and middle game naturally leads to a really strong endgame unit composition, while protoss and terran needs to make some huge tech switches (for instance into a lot of BC's with 3/3 upgrades, vikings and ravens) and these switches take to much time compared to the zerg tech switches. I dont see how the removal of an upgrade changes this fundamental mechanic Also, another problem with TvZ is the Queen change, actually one of the biggest problems. Notice infestors haven't actually been buffed or changed for quite a while, but it's only since then that they became regarded as 'broken' in ZvT. Zergs have gotten better too, especially in terms of Infestor control and retention. However, my analysis of the flow of the game/Queen change is: Queen change enabled Zergs to drone harder, and with fewer offensive units. They can play more greedy, but with less of the risk that balances that out. For example, you see few Zergs building defensive roaches to deal with Hellions now, they'll use pure Queen defences more often. Without spending as much larva on units, and resources, especially gas, Zerg stockpile more. This allows them to get earlier swells of infestors than before, or more of them at Infestors retain their utility and usefulness, so once Infestors are out by and large, there's not a reason to not keep them. Infestors also naturally synergise with almost everything that's Zerg, so there's no downside in having them as part of a composition. They go well with Ultras, and fill almost all of the holes in terms of weaknesses that exist with the Broodlord. The natural progression of Zerg tech is definitely a correct analysis, I'm basically saying that the Queen change enables Zergs to accelerate the progression, with no real downside. You're absolutely right about this. If I look at TvZs before the Queen patch, the matchup was damn balanced and represented Zerg as they should be: They should play reactionary and counter-wise. If a Zerg player knows the Terran is going for hellion/banshee - they should counter it with roaches, spines and spores - not with MASS queens and mass droning behind it. As Terrans invest a lot in hellion/banshee to keep the Zerg low on drones (which makes sense...), Zerg nowadays only can laugh about it and drone like crazy to get insanely strong at late midgame or lategame. You forgot something : the buff happened at the time terran discovered the triple CC build. Which zerg had to counter blindly by attacking with roaches without even knowing if the terran was doing triple CC or not. That was not balanced at all. Thats why blizzard said : ok now, as terran can macro up safely, zerg will macro up safely too. Its justice. The problem is not queen patch, terran just play macro now and its ok. The problem is the fungle in TvZ which is breaking the game (too much punishment for not splitting your marines for 1 second) and IT in PvZ (were 25 infestors can spawn a 200 units army to support his broods...) Are you sure you are not getting mixed up here? The 3 CCs build was only popularized after the queen patch as a way for Terran to catch up on economy with Zergs. I remember during this period a lot of experimentation also went into place mainly ultilizing the Banshees to combat creepspread. Of course there were players using the 3ccs build before the patch but it surely was not the bread and butter build. No, 3 CC builds were around earlier. I distinctly remember a series of MKP vs DRG where MKP either went an early allin such as marauder/hellion or 3 CCs/2 ebay off 1 rax/1 fact. The problem was that for Zerg the visible difference was zero. There were hellions on the edge of your creep and a few marines at the edge of the terran base. That was MLG Winter, ie way before the Queen patch. By the way, over the 5 GSL before the Queen patch, there were a total of 4 Zergs in 5 Ro8s 4 out of 40. But sure, everything was fine and dandy in SC2 before that patch. Selective memory is a wonderful thing. exactly this. people who are crying about queen and overlord buff are completely ignoring the fact that overlordscouting wasnt possible on bigger maps and 1 marine/stalker denying all scouting. also people seem to forget that 4 helions parked outside of the base with 0 apm made for terrible games and in lots of cases terran had a faster 3rd base than the zerg which was seen in terrible winrates for zerg. there is absolutely no problem in nerfing the infestor but talking about reversing the overlord and queen buff is beyond stupid. And yet Zerg had about a 46-47% ZvT winrate in GSL before the buffs. Hellions parked outside the base were actually not a problem if Zerg would have stopped sitting with their thumbs up their asses, refusing to invest in roaches AT ALL. Even then, however, the only real issues with TvZ was the confusion brought by the Terran either going for a hellion banshee all-in, marauder hellion all-in, or a quick 3rd. The overord buff fixed that, then they buffed the queen too.
even if zerg invested into roaches and took a 3rd base they were behind. roaches that early that dont do any damage made the zerg get behind. so even if they could get a scout of and made those 4 roaches to take a 3rd they got behind. thats why zergs went for roach bling all ins a lot. it just isnt possible to make some roaches defensively and not get behind. either you make a lot and be all in (or do a lot of damage so you can transition) or you build a few and be behind.
thats the main reason for the queen buff. vs helions into banshee you needed roaches AND queens which put you behind. as easy as that.
both buffs were needed and are fine. on cloud kingdom for example the old overlord couldnt even get to a safe place to hide in time before the first marine was able to kill. thats how stupid it was before...
BUT: it would be much more fun if zerg could actually do pressure builds (non-allin builds!!) and take a 3rd behind it. in HOTS this would be possible if you would make hydras hatchtech like they were in BW and then nerf queen range back to 3.
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On December 02 2012 00:54 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On December 02 2012 00:52 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:45 geokilla wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 FeyverN wrote:On December 02 2012 00:44 geokilla wrote:
So.... Ryung screaming IMBA doesn't mean anything to them? All these ZvZ finals doesn't mean anything to them? Can someone please remind this thread who the winner of Dreamhack was? A TvP, where the world's best Zergs didn't attend. Stephano, Dimaga, Snute and Nerchio are good zergs. Not compared to Taeja and Hero they aren't. There was no Symbol, Life, Leenock, Sniper, DRG, or anyone that could be called a top tier Zerg. But Snute even beat life!
Several players have beat notably superior players through a series. That feat alone doesn't place them in top player status. If you follow American Football and the NFL remember the 2010 Detroit Lions. They finished the season with a dismal 6-10 record coming off of a 2-14 season before that and a record breaking 0-16 before that. In short, they were the laughingstock of the league. However, in game 14 of the 2010 season, the Lions beat the Green Bay Packers who would later go on to win the Super Bowl. Were the Lions then the clearly superior team.
In short, it's just one series.
I will agree that Snute is a "good" player and this isn't meant to discredit him at all. I'm actually a big fan (as I'm a huge Lions fan as well) but one flash of brilliance over a short period of time doesn't make you a top player. It's more like "Hey, remember that guy that once beat MKP in the Open Bracket of 2012 MLG Summer Championship + Show Spoiler +." He is certainly not a "top player" yet.
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EPT
