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On December 01 2012 15:49 Rokoz wrote:
I don't see how this helps.
Better approach would be to increase their supply to 3.
When you have as strong unit as infestor and you can get it for only 2 supply you don't need to be genius to see that they are very supply-efficient.
Try 5 supply. 3 or 4 is not sufficient.
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I think Zerg doesn't need any change right now...and I'm not a Zerg player!
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Russian Federation125 Posts
i'l just leave it here...
![[image loading]](http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2638/sc2balancecopy.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p
There are 2 important distinctions to make between Zerg and Terran domination though.
First, Terran was "OP" during the time when people were still figuring the game out.
Second, Terran received VERY swift nerfs to a lot of different units and strategies.
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On December 01 2012 17:49 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 17:06 Cyro wrote:
^Broodlings do 4 damage, most protoss units have 1(+3) armor. I think there is a low-end damage floor of 0.5+, but if you compare it to the 3 damage they would otherwise do with +3 attack, such a change would reduce broodling damage to 1/6'th of what it was previously in most situations. They are free units. You can't expect a free unit to have double the DPS of a Interceptor that costs minerals and dies to a fungal randomly placed and takes 8 seconds to rebuild instead of the 2.5 seconds of the broodling.
Oh fuck off. Call them free units if you want, but you know, the trade off is that the Broodlord has as much dps as a roach or a stalker without them. But yeah, give the BL 35+15vs armored damage + splash, or give them 2*15 splash. Then we can be talking about "free units". Because as far as I know, I pay 300/250 to get a handful of those semizerglings into a combat.
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On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p
7 out of 10 of the most recent major events have had over 40% Zerg representation by the round of 16.
4 of those 7 had 50% or more Zerg representation by that point.
In those recent tournaments, Zergs captured half of the top 2 spots.
That goes back to around August, or 3 months ago.
At the height of Terran dominance, and Protoss suffering, Terran had a Code S winrate of 61% for 2 months. In the first month, BFH was nerfed and rax build time was increased by 5s. Those were HUGE nerfs. Ultra build time was reduced by 15s, overseers cost 50 less gas, and immortals gained +1 range. Those were HUGE buffs.
In the 3rd month of Terran dominance, EMP area was reduced by ~45% and Protoss upgrades we're significantly cheaper.
The entire thing lasted 4 months (July through November), and ONLY among Korean Terrans, and we had 2 very large balance patches.
This Zerg period has lasted about the same length of time (with a Code S Zerg winrate of 64%), with some of the first Zerg dominance popping up in July, but mostly rolling in around August, and this is GLOBALLY. Since then, we've had 0 balance patches, and the first one we lay our eyes on is a tiny 20 health nerf to IT eggs and a buff-that-isn't-really-a-buff to ravens.
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On December 01 2012 18:25 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p 7 out of 10 of the most recent major events have had over 40% Zerg representation by the round of 16. 4 of those 7 had 50% or more Zerg representation by that point. In those recent tournaments, Zergs captured half of the top 2 spots. That goes back to around August, or 3 months ago. At the height of Terran dominance, and Protoss suffering, Terran had a Code S winrate of 61% for 2 months. In the first month, BFH was nerfed and rax build time was increased by 5s. Those were HUGE nerfs. Ultra build time was reduced by 15s, overseers cost 50 less gas, and immortals gained +1 range. Those were HUGE buffs. In the 3rd month of Terran dominance, EMP area was reduced by ~45% and Protoss upgrades we're significantly cheaper. The entire thing lasted 4 months (July through November), and ONLY among Korean Terrans, and we had 2 very large balance patches. This Zerg period has lasted about the same length of time (with a Code S Zerg winrate of 64%), with some of the first Zerg dominance popping up in July, but mostly rolling in around August, and this is GLOBALLY. Since then, we've had 0 balance patches, and the first one we lay our eyes on is a tiny 20 health nerf to IT eggs and a buff-that-isn't-really-a-buff to ravens.
Where do you get those 64% from? gomtv.net shows 48.5%, 52.2% and 60.8% for Zerg in Season 3,4,5 of this years Code S.
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On December 01 2012 18:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 17:49 TiTanIum_ wrote:On December 01 2012 17:06 Cyro wrote:
^Broodlings do 4 damage, most protoss units have 1(+3) armor. I think there is a low-end damage floor of 0.5+, but if you compare it to the 3 damage they would otherwise do with +3 attack, such a change would reduce broodling damage to 1/6'th of what it was previously in most situations. They are free units. You can't expect a free unit to have double the DPS of a Interceptor that costs minerals and dies to a fungal randomly placed and takes 8 seconds to rebuild instead of the 2.5 seconds of the broodling. Oh fuck off. Call them free units if you want, but you know, the trade off is that the Broodlord has as much dps as a roach or a stalker without them. But yeah, give the BL 35+15vs armored damage + splash, or give them 2*15 splash. Then we can be talking about "free units". Because as far as I know, I pay 300/250 to get a handful of those semizerglings into a combat.
I actually agree with you on this one. Broodlords are generally fine. I think there are some design flaws in making them come from a tough anti-air unit, but that's minor and something that should have been thought about 4 years ago in the dev phase of the game. Broodling damage is relatively harmless as it is, and they serve more as a "living wall" to protect roaches, BLs, corruptors, and infestors.
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On December 01 2012 18:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 18:25 aksfjh wrote:On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p 7 out of 10 of the most recent major events have had over 40% Zerg representation by the round of 16. 4 of those 7 had 50% or more Zerg representation by that point. In those recent tournaments, Zergs captured half of the top 2 spots. That goes back to around August, or 3 months ago. At the height of Terran dominance, and Protoss suffering, Terran had a Code S winrate of 61% for 2 months. In the first month, BFH was nerfed and rax build time was increased by 5s. Those were HUGE nerfs. Ultra build time was reduced by 15s, overseers cost 50 less gas, and immortals gained +1 range. Those were HUGE buffs. In the 3rd month of Terran dominance, EMP area was reduced by ~45% and Protoss upgrades we're significantly cheaper. The entire thing lasted 4 months (July through November), and ONLY among Korean Terrans, and we had 2 very large balance patches. This Zerg period has lasted about the same length of time (with a Code S Zerg winrate of 64%), with some of the first Zerg dominance popping up in July, but mostly rolling in around August, and this is GLOBALLY. Since then, we've had 0 balance patches, and the first one we lay our eyes on is a tiny 20 health nerf to IT eggs and a buff-that-isn't-really-a-buff to ravens. Where do you get those 64% from? gomtv.net shows 48.5%, 52.2% and 60.8% for Zerg in Season 3,4,5 of this years Code S.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_5/Code_S_Statistics
They were updated today. I've been counting Code S only.
If we go by all of GSL, Zerg has still matched Terran in dominance with that 60%+ winrate, and at this moment still face a rather poor balance response.
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On December 01 2012 18:38 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 18:31 Big J wrote:On December 01 2012 18:25 aksfjh wrote:On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p 7 out of 10 of the most recent major events have had over 40% Zerg representation by the round of 16. 4 of those 7 had 50% or more Zerg representation by that point. In those recent tournaments, Zergs captured half of the top 2 spots. That goes back to around August, or 3 months ago. At the height of Terran dominance, and Protoss suffering, Terran had a Code S winrate of 61% for 2 months. In the first month, BFH was nerfed and rax build time was increased by 5s. Those were HUGE nerfs. Ultra build time was reduced by 15s, overseers cost 50 less gas, and immortals gained +1 range. Those were HUGE buffs. In the 3rd month of Terran dominance, EMP area was reduced by ~45% and Protoss upgrades we're significantly cheaper. The entire thing lasted 4 months (July through November), and ONLY among Korean Terrans, and we had 2 very large balance patches. This Zerg period has lasted about the same length of time (with a Code S Zerg winrate of 64%), with some of the first Zerg dominance popping up in July, but mostly rolling in around August, and this is GLOBALLY. Since then, we've had 0 balance patches, and the first one we lay our eyes on is a tiny 20 health nerf to IT eggs and a buff-that-isn't-really-a-buff to ravens. Where do you get those 64% from? gomtv.net shows 48.5%, 52.2% and 60.8% for Zerg in Season 3,4,5 of this years Code S. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_5/Code_S_StatisticsThey were updated today. I've been counting Code S only. If we go by all of GSL, Zerg has still matched Terran in dominance with that 60%+ winrate, and at this moment still face a rather poor balance response.
Ah OK, ty. Now I get it, on gomtv they count Code S + Code A as one tournament...
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Hahahahahahahahahahahaha "Zerg no general advatage"
Please Blizzard: Infestor (Fungal and IT in the LATEGAME when you had 15+) was still more then OP when fungal didn´t hit psyonic units, so why did you change it back????
WTF!!!
Edit: Every raven buff good, specially with SeeKeR missles.
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On December 01 2012 18:31 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 18:21 Big J wrote:On December 01 2012 17:49 TiTanIum_ wrote:On December 01 2012 17:06 Cyro wrote:
^Broodlings do 4 damage, most protoss units have 1(+3) armor. I think there is a low-end damage floor of 0.5+, but if you compare it to the 3 damage they would otherwise do with +3 attack, such a change would reduce broodling damage to 1/6'th of what it was previously in most situations. They are free units. You can't expect a free unit to have double the DPS of a Interceptor that costs minerals and dies to a fungal randomly placed and takes 8 seconds to rebuild instead of the 2.5 seconds of the broodling. Oh fuck off. Call them free units if you want, but you know, the trade off is that the Broodlord has as much dps as a roach or a stalker without them. But yeah, give the BL 35+15vs armored damage + splash, or give them 2*15 splash. Then we can be talking about "free units". Because as far as I know, I pay 300/250 to get a handful of those semizerglings into a combat. I actually agree with you on this one. Broodlords are generally fine. I think there are some design flaws in making them come from a tough anti-air unit, but that's minor and something that should have been thought about 4 years ago in the dev phase of the game. Broodling damage is relatively harmless as it is, and they serve more as a "living wall" to protect roaches, BLs, corruptors, and infestors.
Well, imo they gave the races really good tools to deal with BLs (blink stalkers + void rays, vikings, BCs, to some extend marines, ghosts). But then they nerfed a lot of stuff into the ground and the metagame probably didn't evolve as dynamic as hoped for. (supergas intense endgame armies like BL+Infestor can't exist in very back and forth games)
Imo, Broodlords in TvZ and TvT are fine, Infestors are not, they can just destroy AtA Broodlord counters to easily. For Protoss... yeah, I'm still of the opinion that Protoss GtA and AtA just plainly sucks (unless you can feedback it) and Protoss GtG is too good. (as can be seen in TvP Mech, ZvP any groundbased lategame from zerg, TvP bio - unless you have mass medivac+viking support and the Protoss plays with 33%handicap through EMP, PvP Robo/Archon battles)
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i think the thing i (and maybe others) am most upset about is, that blizzard said they would change their approach, they would monitor the situation and carefully think about it, BUT the way i see it, they did absolutely nothing until 2 weeks ago, and their ideas are just garbage to boot, they do not plan ahead, they just react to community outcries on a day to day basis if lying with statistics does not calm them down anymore.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 01 2012 18:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 18:31 aksfjh wrote:On December 01 2012 18:21 Big J wrote:On December 01 2012 17:49 TiTanIum_ wrote:On December 01 2012 17:06 Cyro wrote:
^Broodlings do 4 damage, most protoss units have 1(+3) armor. I think there is a low-end damage floor of 0.5+, but if you compare it to the 3 damage they would otherwise do with +3 attack, such a change would reduce broodling damage to 1/6'th of what it was previously in most situations. They are free units. You can't expect a free unit to have double the DPS of a Interceptor that costs minerals and dies to a fungal randomly placed and takes 8 seconds to rebuild instead of the 2.5 seconds of the broodling. Oh fuck off. Call them free units if you want, but you know, the trade off is that the Broodlord has as much dps as a roach or a stalker without them. But yeah, give the BL 35+15vs armored damage + splash, or give them 2*15 splash. Then we can be talking about "free units". Because as far as I know, I pay 300/250 to get a handful of those semizerglings into a combat. I actually agree with you on this one. Broodlords are generally fine. I think there are some design flaws in making them come from a tough anti-air unit, but that's minor and something that should have been thought about 4 years ago in the dev phase of the game. Broodling damage is relatively harmless as it is, and they serve more as a "living wall" to protect roaches, BLs, corruptors, and infestors. Well, imo they gave the races really good tools to deal with BLs (blink stalkers + void rays, vikings, BCs, to some extend marines, ghosts). But then they nerfed a lot of stuff into the ground and the metagame probably didn't evolve as dynamic as hoped for. (supergas intense endgame armies like BL+Infestor can't exist in very back and forth games) Imo, Broodlords in TvZ and TvT are fine, Infestors are not, they can just destroy AtA Broodlord counters to easily. For Protoss... yeah, I'm still of the opinion that Protoss GtA and AtA just plainly sucks (unless you can feedback it) and Protoss GtG is too good. (as can be seen in TvP Mech, ZvP any groundbased lategame from zerg, TvP bio - unless you have mass medivac+viking support and the Protoss plays with 33%handicap through EMP, PvP Robo/Archon battles)
As Protoss, the fucked up thing isn't necessarily Infestors or Broodlords. They can be dealt with on their own. The problem is the incredibly strong synergy the two of them have.
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On December 01 2012 18:19 dargul wrote:i'l just leave it here...
Cute. The fixed version:
Dustin Browder:
Full time game designer.
Platinum player.
Part of a balance team including David Kim (former/current GM player) and many sophisticated tools and data to determine balance.
Ryung:
GSL 2012 Quarter Finalist
Playing on GSL since April 2011
Just lost probably the most important game of his career (prob just because he forgot seige mode) and is kinda angry/upset about it.
Who should I listen to now hmm?? Seriously, anyone who takes the words of a guy who just lost a game and is likely in a very emotional state as a serious balance argument needs to get their head read.
/nerf infestors
/do it sensibly
/stop hating blizzard.
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On December 01 2012 19:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Cute. The fixed version: Dustin Browder: Full time game designer. Platinum player. Part of a balance team including David Kim (former/current GM player) and many sophisticated tools and data to determine balance. Ryung: GSL 2012 Quarter Finalist Playing on GSL since April 2011 Just lost probably the most important game of his career (prob just because he forgot seige mode) and is kinda angry/upset about it.Who should I listen to now hmm?? Seriously, anyone who takes the words of a guy who just lost a game and is likely in a very emotional state as a serious balance argument needs to get their head read. /nerf infestors /do it sensibly /stop hating blizzard.
more pros than just ryung... and other races have spoken about this...
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Infestors are an issue for three main reasons:
1. Fungal is far too strong as a catch-all spell. It acts as the counter to large clumps of low health units, an AoE for large clumps of high health units, is used regularly on single aerial units repeatedly in order to lock them down and is available the moment an infestor pops out.
2. They're far too mobile a caster. Groups of infestors are not only difficult to deal with for the above reasons but they can also singlehandedly lock down an expansion with practically no risk to themselves in most situations.
3. They have no saturation/drop off point due to infested terrans. While fungal has a saturation point, all the remaining infestors have to do is drop a shitload of upgraded ITs that wreck anything that is fungaled. This is not true of ghosts and high templar. It is true of ravens but ravens are slow and have pitiful range.
As a terran, the moment infestors pop I have to consider:
- that my drops are going to get shut down the second they arrive
- that I need a critical number of tanks to be able to push into any zerg base
- that I need detection at every major base and choke that is exposed
- that any small, medium or large marine/marauder groups on the map are probably going to die
That's way too much for one caster to cause me to react to. Something needs to be done about the infestor itself, not just little things. They are far too versatile and far too good at what they actually do.
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4713 Posts
On December 01 2012 19:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Cute. The fixed version: Dustin Browder: Full time game designer. Platinum player. Part of a balance team including David Kim (former/current GM player) and many sophisticated tools and data to determine balance. Ryung: GSL 2012 Quarter Finalist Playing on GSL since April 2011 Just lost probably the most important game of his career (prob just because he forgot seige mode) and is kinda angry/upset about it. Who should I listen to now hmm?? Seriously, anyone who takes the words of a guy who just lost a game and is likely in a very emotional state as a serious balance argument needs to get their head read. /nerf infestors /do it sensibly /stop hating blizzard.
Except, DK is probably not GM player any more, because if he did he would regularly run into the problems that people complain about regarding SC2, not directly talking about balance. The tools Blizzard have, are either irrelevant, we don't care about ladder stats.
Or we also have access to them, and they paint a different picture.
Not only that but, as pointed out by another user, during the period of terran domination, not only was the game still being figured out but Blizzard didn't hesitate to nerf terrans quickly repeatedly and sometimes extremely.
Now however when Zergs are dominating globally, when everyone is unhappy about the MU, when even zerg players like NesTea and DRG say the race is too strong, when even objective people like Wolf come forth and say they feel there is a problem, now, exactly now when blizzard should act, they don't.
Blizzard has earned all the hate they are getting, for doing preferential treatment, doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and for not swallowing their god damned pride regarding their broken design, to actually try to fix the game.
To the list of people that have voiced their concern over vZ MUs, along side's Ryung's name you can add, Mvp, MMA, NesTea, DRG, qxc, Rain, MKP, Wolf and I'm sure I forget a couple because there where so many of them.
I think I'd rather trust the wisdom of these pro players, who play 40 games per day of the highest quality.
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On December 01 2012 18:25 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 17:36 GoodSirTets wrote:
Reading the rest of this thread, I think people don't remember/weren't around for GOMTvT. For several months, terran was ABSOLUTELY dominant. Over half of code S. 1/1/1 and blue flame hellions all day long. Zerg has not been nearly as dominant for nearly as long as that period. Looking at the top 32 or top 16 of tournaments show a decent racial representation, with terran maybe being slightly behind (But not nearly as low as protoss was for a far longer period of time).
I actually can see where blizzard's coming from....
Of course that's just balance, and good unit design is something else entirely :p 7 out of 10 of the most recent major events have had over 40% Zerg representation by the round of 16. 4 of those 7 had 50% or more Zerg representation by that point. In those recent tournaments, Zergs captured half of the top 2 spots. That goes back to around August, or 3 months ago. At the height of Terran dominance, and Protoss suffering, Terran had a Code S winrate of 61% for 2 months. In the first month, BFH was nerfed and rax build time was increased by 5s. Those were HUGE nerfs. Ultra build time was reduced by 15s, overseers cost 50 less gas, and immortals gained +1 range. Those were HUGE buffs. In the 3rd month of Terran dominance, EMP area was reduced by ~45% and Protoss upgrades we're significantly cheaper. The entire thing lasted 4 months (July through November), and ONLY among Korean Terrans, and we had 2 very large balance patches. This Zerg period has lasted about the same length of time (with a Code S Zerg winrate of 64%), with some of the first Zerg dominance popping up in July, but mostly rolling in around August, and this is GLOBALLY. Since then, we've had 0 balance patches, and the first one we lay our eyes on is a tiny 20 health nerf to IT eggs and a buff-that-isn't-really-a-buff to ravens.
It's absurd really how fucked up balance is at this point. None of the last major events have any integrity considering this.
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On November 30 2012 11:12 iaguz wrote:
So instead of an egg soaking up 2 tank shots it will now soak up...
2 tank shots.
Progress!
1 storm can kill a batch of eggs now :D! Progress! Although, ht's can get fungalled to death again ;(
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EPT
