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On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing  Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes.
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by map design perspective. As far as I know, mapmakers have all the tools necessary.
edit: Oh I see, you seem to be referring to the ladder map pool. This is a misunderstanding, my bad. I tend to ignore the Ladder and focus only on tournament / pro play. Indeed, if the immortal-sentry all-in is an issue on ladder because of the ladder maps design, then Blizzard can definitely do something about it.
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 20 2012 15:46 monk. wrote:
Hope you guys also focus on his answers about his approach to the game, and not just the balance changes.
cool interviews for this event, thank you
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Why is he always so hyper in interviews? I get tired just listening to him speak.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On November 20 2012 16:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:56 lichter wrote:On November 20 2012 16:52 blade55555 wrote:On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes. Well and a fun perspective. We saw it used 3 times to sen i believe? I saw the last two games but it's just not fun to watch. It's just idk incredibly boring to watch someone do that lol. Infestor Broodlord is boring to watch too  I am really considering switching to Terran now, because Z and P matchups are so boring to play -_-'' Oh I agree. I have said this many times that zerg late game is boring, but it's our only viable way to consistently win, which sucks trust me. It's why I haven't played sc2 much because it's boring to do that style if I want to win zvp consistently. In general zvp is dull to watch :/.
I kinda feel guilty when I do it, sigh. Really want more variety. Sometimes I just end up cheesing or going for silly builds and lose because I get so bored. I play random too but I've been Z since BW so it is hard for me to let go. I actually randomly complained about it against a friendly opponent yesterday while playing lol
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great to hear that the good folks at blizzard admit balance issues. also many changes are comming up (especially in swarm). it feels like a washing mashine in heavy spin cycle. i hope once the cloths come out, they are rather clean instead of marked off in colours.
the infestor changes sound like the biggest changes, however i'm also curious about interceptor immunity against fungal. i'm not sure carriers will be used against corrupter/infestor/bl, but seing it comming back (at least vs zerg) would be awesome.
also good to hear, that they care about us (i mean everybody can say that) but i believe him 
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On November 20 2012 16:58 Al Bundy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by map design perspective. As far as I know, mapmakers have all the tools necessary.
Which map makers?
I know GSL/Kespa map makers can solve the issue themselves, I'm talking about for ladder here, which is what 99% of SC2 players are going to be playing on. Ladder maps are, mostly, Blizzard designed maps. If they continue with their current designs, we're going to just see more of the same, which allows this all in to be just as effective.
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I have always respected the ability for Blizzard to see how to balance the game. What 99% of players think help result in other problems we don't think about. The way the team comes up with the changes without completely messing everything up is incredible.
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On November 20 2012 17:05 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:58 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by map design perspective. As far as I know, mapmakers have all the tools necessary. Which map makers? I know GSL/Kespa map makers can solve the issue themselves, I'm talking about for ladder here, which is what 99% of SC2 players are going to be playing on. Ladder maps are, mostly, Blizzard designed maps. If they continue with their current designs, we're going to just see more of the same, which allows this all in to be just as effective.
yeah sorry about that I just edited my previous post
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Thank you for the interview and the summary of it. Enjoyed reading.
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On November 20 2012 16:57 Hizzay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:52 blade55555 wrote:On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes. Well and a fun perspective. We saw it used 3 times to sen i believe? I saw the last two games but it's just not fun to watch. It's just idk incredibly boring to watch someone do that lol. Sen actually defended it in the first game with roaches and 1-1 lings, but then still lost in a macro game.
That was mostly because Parting went for the third instead of going straight into the natural, which is better for the Zerg. Also, Sen lost because he never denied Parting's third base after he stopped the all in, and stayed on 3 base far too long before taking a 4th, so Parting could recover.
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United States4415 Posts
Sounds like zerg is going to be screwed. Nerfing fungal like that will make the Protoss 3 base pre-hive pushes basically unstoppable. It also won't even change anything in TvZ which is by far the bigger problem matchup. He listened to the Protoss whine despite them winning or taking second in everything with a ton of different players while Terran was relying on 2 players for any results whatsoever. Both of whom are slumping now. Granted he did say these changes weren't guaranteed so hopefully they don't happen.
Terran needs buffs though idk to what exactly. Protoss/zerg need to be changed not buffed/nerfed. IMO something like buffing hydras in a way that helps with pre-hive timings but doesn't completely ruin the timings they should still be viable. Something like a little move speed and hp. Then buff protoss by making the carrier transition easier. Maybe decrease either the time they take to make or the cost. Carrier/High Templar can fight brood infestor with good control. Then I think increase infested terrans energy cost (seen this recommended by a few pros recently).
Also calling corruptors too strong is hilarious. The only units they are cost effective against are mutas and phoenix.
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I am saddened that we didn't get to hear anything about Zerg in HOTS at all. Nothing on Vipers they were not even mentioned swarm hosts or ultra buffs.... To make BL no the only engame unit for z
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great interview. thanks a lot Monk and TL! You can't fault DB for not trying. I think they have a lot of good ideas. I just wish they came sooner
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On November 20 2012 17:06 Al Bundy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 17:05 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:58 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:50 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:49 Al Bundy wrote:On November 20 2012 16:44 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 20 2012 16:40 Al Bundy wrote:Thanks for sharing Looks like we're going to have to wait for HotS in order to see significant changes. I'm fine with that. I agree with Dustin about the immortal all-in. Also I agree with him about Terran in HotS. Now hopefully when the balance test map (featuring the fungal immunity for psionic units) will be live, people won't jump to conclusions. Like all changes, it may take some time for the Zergs to adapt. I don't agree with him about the immortal all-in. He seems to think it can be solved by the players' strategies, when in actuality it is solved through map design. Any all in centering around forcefield has nothing to do with the Zerg it becomes a question of whether the Protoss hits his forcefields. This can be alleviated through better map design (*cough* no more Ohana maps please Blizzard) which allows the Zerg to bait forcefields earlier on and get a better concave/surround, since that's just about all the micro we can do against the all in. Bottom line is, there is no need for Blizzard to intervene in that specific matter. From a balance perspective, no. From a map design perspective, yes. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by map design perspective. As far as I know, mapmakers have all the tools necessary. Which map makers? I know GSL/Kespa map makers can solve the issue themselves, I'm talking about for ladder here, which is what 99% of SC2 players are going to be playing on. Ladder maps are, mostly, Blizzard designed maps. If they continue with their current designs, we're going to just see more of the same, which allows this all in to be just as effective. yeah sorry about that I just edited my previous post
haha no problemo, I mostly focus on balancing for top level play as well, but I can't ignore how much I know I play the game, and ladder maps are just... -___-
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Raven buffs are long overdue. And even if they just got rid of 250mm cannon without replacing it with anything I'd be happy.
Also about fungals and sentries...what if they just remove the psionic classification from sentries?
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On November 20 2012 16:44 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 16:31 Falling wrote:
On the otherhand, it's probably for the best that the mothership gets nerfed into oblivion and everything else compensates in its place. Trying to balance the late-game around a single, super slow hero unit is going to be a head-ache no matter how they do it. Plus I'm convinced it promotes super passive play when it swings the battle so much in one direction or the other. Both sides are too scared to make a move and have it all go wrong due to Vortex on Zerg or Neural counter-Vortex. Agreed, the mothership in its current form promotes slow, deathball-style play. Arbiters assisted in large fights, but they also helped with base raids, harassing and counterattacking because they were much faster and more disposable than the mothership. If a mothership-style unit were to be created for use in professional games, it would be more interesting as a faster, more harass-focused unit similar to the arbiter. The mothership in its current form does not make the metagame more fun to watch and play in my opinion. Edit: I disagree with Dustin on fungal slowing units. Once a group of units are fungaled, it's a weird situation. The zerg has to check back every four seconds to make sure to chain the fungal in the same location, and whoever is being fungaled has to choose between abandoning their units and focusing on other tasks or trying to move their units away and hoping the zerg does not chain fungal in time. Making fungal a projectile increases the potential to micro units to avoid fungal, but once they have been fungaled the situation is still the same. If units were slowed by fungal, the engagement would be more dynamic. The player being fungaled would have the opportunity to spread their units to save some of them or maximize the energy spent by the infestors and the zerg would need to decide where and whether to fungal as the enemy units spread out or retreat. Overall a great interview, and Dustin's proposed changes seem to be headed in the right direction.
I agree with this completely. Especially vs units like phoenix, which have enough health to eat a few fungals, and if given a chance to keep moving, or even spread out a bit will eat more infestor energy.
Plus that 'line' can often be the difference between vikings being covered by thor volleys or not which can make all the difference with corrupter vs viking fights.
I don't see the projectile making 'much' difference. Everything that does get nabbed dies. Sure, with very fast units 1 or 2 might get away instead of all of them getting caught, but losing half your expensive flying units to fungal is still pretty brutal and effectively ends any sort of harassment.
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To TeamLiquid: Please keep the feedback coming and please play beta!
So make it playable for none NA Players, dear Dustin. Lag is too big from eu
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On November 20 2012 16:50 Zoku wrote:Fire this man. Fire this man now.
If you listen to the interview itself he talks a lot more about this, the text doesn't do the conversations justice.
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I'm quite optimistic. This community really annoys me, more and more. Infestors are imba, nerf nerf nerf! OMG your considering nerfing them? I'm terrified, all is lost! Seriously one guy suggested we cant beat immortal sentry all ins if we dont fungal-- infestors are not a standard counter against immortal sentry all in...at all...
HOTS will probably be really imba at first, and a lot of these changes to WoL units I expect to "blow up in their face" to be melodramatic, but the fact that there looking at it from a design stand point makes me optimistic. I'm perfectly fine playing 6 months of shifting balance if theres light at the end of the tunnel, and I think with a lot of these ideas and new units there probably is.
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Also I loled when he says that they watch pro games and critique the losing player. Oh yeah Dustin you sure know what marineking could have done to win against those infestor/broods.
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EPT
