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On November 12 2012 09:12 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 09:09 Dunmer wrote: Buff feedback against psionic, hence dealing with infestors/ghosts and nerf it against everything else.
i swear to god ill be so fucking mad if blizzard ends up buffing snipe and feedback, that would screw tvp up
I didn't mean to change snipe at all, sorry if that was unclear. I mean to change feedback the way snipe was to that it is in fact buffed against infestors and nerfed against regular units.
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Nerfing infestor would screw up zerg vs zerg balance.
On a more serious note though, I think that the projectile-fungal is the key solution as it rewards good micro from the opposing player but still allows for chain fungalling when the opposing player mismiscro'd his units.
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The difference between now and back then, was zergs didnt know how stupidly good IT were. Now that that understand, they mass 20 infestors. There's a reason you didnt see that last year, infestors were mostly used for fungals, and fights dont last long enough to use 3000 worth of energy on fungals
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Blizzard needs to learn how to grow a spine when it comes to fans crying over their decision, especially the ones in which are an obvious fallacy as dictated by the history of Infestors and this game.
First off, the Infestor was already nerfed.
Second, why is the year of 2011 just a ghost when it came to balance issues with the Infestor? Why weren't people crying over Infestors that year when Zerg seemed "weaker" and not winning as much? They were near the same as they are now. Stating, "Zerg didn't know how too ..." is an evasion of stats, abilities may defer, and thus the argument faulters in both directions.
Thirdly, this is honestly the most embarrassing whining I've heard yet on balance. I thought Zerg were whiney, ... this takes the cake and its really humiliating for all of you how much you can defend a position in which stats were the same in 2011, and yet the act of a race "Doing well" triggers such a response to a unit that remained the same. Extremely hypocritical.
I will admit Infestor is a very difficult unit to deal with. More difficult than probably any other unit in the game, and I actually support if Blizz wants to reduce the size of the Infestor. But to look outward for help from others instead of having the courage and creativity to deal with a problem with which you are fully capable of is shameful. Looking to others to solve something for you is weak. You have the strength to overcome a difficult situation.
Can't split your marines? Crrrryyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!! Got your Ghost killed cause you couldn't micro and didnt have enough supporting units? Crrrryyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!
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On November 12 2012 08:50 ROOTT1 wrote: if they nerf the core spells of the infestor zerg would get crushed by protoss, all they need to do to fix pvz is make interceptors unfungal-able and the mothership immune to neural.. its so fucking simple
Really good suggestion, doubt they'll listen though... :/
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On November 12 2012 09:14 Dunmer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 09:12 ROOTT1 wrote:On November 12 2012 09:09 Dunmer wrote: Buff feedback against psionic, hence dealing with infestors/ghosts and nerf it against everything else.
i swear to god ill be so fucking mad if blizzard ends up buffing snipe and feedback, that would screw tvp up I didn't mean to change snipe at all, sorry if that was unclear. I mean to change feedback the way snipe was to that it is in fact buffed against infestors and nerfed against regular units.
ah ok, the last thing i want to see are these changes
On November 12 2012 02:14 trinxified wrote: - We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback).
On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On November 12 2012 09:17 Gladiator333 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 08:50 ROOTT1 wrote: if they nerf the core spells of the infestor zerg would get crushed by protoss, all they need to do to fix pvz is make interceptors unfungal-able and the mothership immune to neural.. its so fucking simple Really good suggestion, doubt they'll listen though... :/ They are considering the first suggestion, making intereptors unfungal-able.
David Kim: There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play. Therefore we are only considering to add minor buffs to it. We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth. However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
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We will 100000000000% see a Zerg champ at BWC.
There is just no question. The best players in the world right now are all zergs, not to mention the infestor situation being a massive booster to that.
In fact if we see any more non zerg champions in any major tournaments before this gets fixed I would be massively surprised.
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Taking first a post from a player named "Swarm" on the blizzard forums:
Alright so looking at Liquipedia-
Tournaments in the last 2 months 2012 MvP 1st SoO 2nd Oz 3rd MajOr/Soulkey Not a ZvZ Fest 2012 ESW 1st MaNa 2nd ForGG 3rd Stephano Not a ZvZ Fest 9/12 ZOTAC 1st Fraer 2nd Revival 3rd Hyun Won by Protoss, despite 2 top level Korean Zergs 9/12 GO4SC2 Won by Nerchio Best EU player behind Stephano MLG Dallas 1st Life 2nd Leenock GSL champ vs MLG champ RSL(Ongoing)
Tournaments over 2 months ago *EG Masters Cup (Team League) *WCS NA (August 2012) *WCS Oceania (August 2012) *IPL FC (is currently being dominated by HyuN, but IPL selects who gets to play in FC). *Gigabyte Lan (June 2012) *SCAN Invitation (September 2012)
So overall about 4 tournaments have had Zergs in the Semi Finals/Finals. Despite them being either Korean Zergs, or a Top Foreign Zerg.
I really wish everyone would chill out with the whine for a moment. Shit, I want infestors nerfed just to see what would happen. People claim muta/ling is viable, which in some cases it is against terran. People who say it's viable against toss are silly, because it can be caught pretty early, and thus acted upon accordingly.
Blizz should have just made BW prettier zzz
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On November 12 2012 09:25 malaan wrote: We will 100000000000% see a Zerg champ at BWC.
There is just no question. The best players in the world right now are all zergs, not to mention the infestor situation being a massive booster to that.
In fact if we see any more non zerg champions in any major tournaments before this gets fixed I would be massively surprised. Given the Protoss Korean names, I wouldn't.
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I'm so tired of people saying infestor spells shouldn't be changed. Rooting units in place shouldn't be in the game, and no unit should be as versatile as infestors are now. The whole unit is completely fucked.
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On November 12 2012 09:17 President Dead wrote:Blizzard needs to learn how to grow a spine when it comes to fans crying over their decision, especially the ones in which are an obvious fallacy as dictated by the history of Infestors and this game. First off, the Infestor was already nerfed. Second, why is the year of 2011 just a ghost when it came to balance issues with the Infestor? Why weren't people crying over Infestors that year when Zerg seemed "weaker" and not winning as much? They were near the same as they are now. Stating, "Zerg didn't know how too ..." is an evasion of stats, abilities may defer, and thus the argument faulters in both directions. Thirdly, this is honestly the most embarrassing whining I've heard yet on balance. I thought Zerg were whiney, ... this takes the cake and its really humiliating for all of you how much you can defend a position in which stats were the same in 2011, and yet the act of a race "Doing well" triggers such a response to a unit that remained the same. Extremely hypocritical. I will admit Infestor is a very difficult unit to deal with. More difficult than probably any other unit in the game, and I actually support if Blizz wants to reduce the size of the Infestor. But to look outward for help from others instead of having the courage and creativity to deal with a problem with which you are fully capable of is shameful. Looking to others to solve something for you is weak. You have the strength to overcome a difficult situation. Can't split your marines? Crrrryyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!! Got your Ghost killed cause you couldn't micro and didnt have enough supporting units? Crrrryyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!Crrrryyyyyyyy!!!!!!
the problem already existed then, but P and T were strong early and mid game, and Zerg were not using infestors as the solution. Infestors were nerfed a few times but remained very viable and too versatile. Infestors are clearly too OP for the ease of use. This is exactly what you said, there are too many things you need to do just to avoid being fungaled or IT to death.
I am so glad the nerf will be coming. There are so many viable options for zerg, I just feel so many of them are hanging onto the believe that they will die without using infestors. I absolutely hate playing against aggressive zerg. BUT I typed gg with dignity, losing to BL infestors is just absolutely disgusting and leave me with a bad taste.
I am sure you can adapt, I have learnt much trying to stop infestors BLs, although I still got problem actually beating them. But this made my control in mid game ( immortal all in LOL) stronger, my macro improve greatly in the late game.
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infested terrans cost 50. FG and NP don't hit Air. That's a fucking move they should have done decade ago. We will have a terran Air mech (BC) viable. And mothership (as core PvZ late game) wont be affected as well.
To be honest, NP should be removed from the game entirely (or hugely nerfed). It's a spell that can never be balanced.
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Personally I want the creep spread nerf they had planned just to see how things played out, but it doesnt help PvZ at all in the late game. Although TT1 has a good idea with no neural on the mothership so could possibly just nullify neural for massive units?
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On November 12 2012 09:27 Shin_Gouki wrote:Taking first a post from a player named "Swarm" on the blizzard forums: Show nested quote +Alright so looking at Liquipedia-
Tournaments in the last 2 months 2012 MvP 1st SoO 2nd Oz 3rd MajOr/Soulkey Not a ZvZ Fest 2012 ESW 1st MaNa 2nd ForGG 3rd Stephano Not a ZvZ Fest 9/12 ZOTAC 1st Fraer 2nd Revival 3rd Hyun Won by Protoss, despite 2 top level Korean Zergs 9/12 GO4SC2 Won by Nerchio Best EU player behind Stephano MLG Dallas 1st Life 2nd Leenock GSL champ vs MLG champ RSL(Ongoing)
Tournaments over 2 months ago *EG Masters Cup (Team League) *WCS NA (August 2012) *WCS Oceania (August 2012) *IPL FC (is currently being dominated by HyuN, but IPL selects who gets to play in FC). *Gigabyte Lan (June 2012) *SCAN Invitation (September 2012)
So overall about 4 tournaments have had Zergs in the Semi Finals/Finals. Despite them being either Korean Zergs, or a Top Foreign Zerg. I really wish everyone would chill out with the whine for a moment. Shit, I want infestors nerfed just to see what would happen. People claim muta/ling is viable, which in some cases it is against terran. People who say it's viable against toss are silly, because it can be caught pretty early, and thus acted upon accordingly. Blizz should have just made BW prettier zzz
lol what? of course ling muta is viable against protoss, no one is saying that ur supposed to open w/ ling muta vs a 2base immo allin but if the p goes for an early third its an excellent opener. it allows you to have map control while taking a super early 4th safely while you transition into infestors/hive, you can even go for a mass muta bling style.. drg does this alot
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Yo, if you nerf my infestor, I will muta harrass the shit out of you until you QQ about muta being OP
Zergs will always find a way
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Dominican Republic31 Posts
i have a question!!
why do protoss has to go collosus all the time vs Z, why not making HT to take the 3rd with cannons? if by any chances the zerg will have just lings and getting infestors as usual, if the zerg go ahead and attacks u have better position to feedback those infestor right?
i think this is a good way to deal with this infestors in the mid game going to lategame and im pretty sure a protoss on 4bases will fight a zerg even with Broodlord infetor combo
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On November 12 2012 09:14 Dunmer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 09:12 ROOTT1 wrote:On November 12 2012 09:09 Dunmer wrote: Buff feedback against psionic, hence dealing with infestors/ghosts and nerf it against everything else.
i swear to god ill be so fucking mad if blizzard ends up buffing snipe and feedback, that would screw tvp up I didn't mean to change snipe at all, sorry if that was unclear. I mean to change feedback the way snipe was to that it is in fact buffed against infestors and nerfed against regular units.
Wait what? You want HTs to deal with Ghosts...? That would screw up viking > colossi, HT > viking, ghost > HT, Colossi > Ghost
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Nerfing only the Infestor wont fix TvZ but I suppose it will be another 6 months before those....people at Blizzard are ready to admit that. What really sucks is that Blizz have decided to act only after Protoss started to have serious difficulties with the Zerg meta. Terrans complaining? Awwww,QQ more, we ♥ tears bla-bla-bla
Look into fixing the fucking metagame, Blizzard, nobody enjoys the current 15 minute norush bullshit anymore than they enjoy 200 supply worth of shit gettin fungled to death
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On November 12 2012 09:35 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 09:27 Shin_Gouki wrote:Taking first a post from a player named "Swarm" on the blizzard forums: Alright so looking at Liquipedia-
Tournaments in the last 2 months 2012 MvP 1st SoO 2nd Oz 3rd MajOr/Soulkey Not a ZvZ Fest 2012 ESW 1st MaNa 2nd ForGG 3rd Stephano Not a ZvZ Fest 9/12 ZOTAC 1st Fraer 2nd Revival 3rd Hyun Won by Protoss, despite 2 top level Korean Zergs 9/12 GO4SC2 Won by Nerchio Best EU player behind Stephano MLG Dallas 1st Life 2nd Leenock GSL champ vs MLG champ RSL(Ongoing)
Tournaments over 2 months ago *EG Masters Cup (Team League) *WCS NA (August 2012) *WCS Oceania (August 2012) *IPL FC (is currently being dominated by HyuN, but IPL selects who gets to play in FC). *Gigabyte Lan (June 2012) *SCAN Invitation (September 2012)
So overall about 4 tournaments have had Zergs in the Semi Finals/Finals. Despite them being either Korean Zergs, or a Top Foreign Zerg. I really wish everyone would chill out with the whine for a moment. Shit, I want infestors nerfed just to see what would happen. People claim muta/ling is viable, which in some cases it is against terran. People who say it's viable against toss are silly, because it can be caught pretty early, and thus acted upon accordingly. Blizz should have just made BW prettier zzz lol what? of course ling muta is viable against protoss, no one is saying that ur supposed to open w/ ling muta vs a 2base immo allin but if the p goes for an early third its an excellent opener. it allows you to have map control while taking a super early 4th safely while you transition into infestors/hive, you can even go for a mass muta bling style.. drg does this alot
What? Of course you don't open muta/ling against a 2 base build period. But that doesn't mean it's as strong as people make it think. Toss goes robo + 4 gate into third, so they'll grab an observer first to scout the zerg. If they scout the spire, and they will, you can just play passively while getting high templar for archons + storm if the zerg is going to dedicate towards mass muta.
Zergs can get the fast fourth regardless and generally have map control if the toss goes for the third.
I don't see how muta is considered safe as an opener, although players like suppy open muta first, so I guess I can't say it's invalid.
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