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On November 06 2012 00:18 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:09 Tsubbi wrote:
oh look balance whine from the wcs korea winner, where 7 out of the top 8 where protoss
though its cool to see interviews without the standard answers, way more fun GM KR has more protoss than zegs/terrans I think people cry too much because infestors/BLs are the only solid way that zergs can win the games, since their other units are very shitty supply wise. The problem is that they dont see ZvP is very close to 50%, its just that zergs always win with hive tech, while protoss can win with 2base all in, 3 base timings (before hive) and good double vortex
The logic of 50/50 is really bad. Back then, TvP was 50/50 win rate, but 70% of those wins were basically terrans doing 1/1/1 all ins. Sure its statistically "balanced", but its not.
The same works for PvZ except for the late game.
its just blizzard's assymetrical balance losing control really
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On November 06 2012 00:50 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain. Depends what you consider post-hive. Rain PvZ more often than not involves 3 base timing when zerg is about to hit hive... which is Creator's PvZ. And he didn't get enough soul for wonwonwon.
Rain does defeat Zerg pre and post Hive though, and the question was "name one Protoss who can". Also, Protoss are generally going all-in vs. pre-Hive gameplay and then being crippled tech-wise when they fail to break their opponent.
I'd like to see Fungal toned down too and some other Tier 2 from Zerg toned-up. The whole problem is the frustrating gameplay for both sides which leads them to make these choices (timings vs. t3 rush).
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On November 05 2012 23:51 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:44 Hryul wrote:On November 05 2012 22:34 wozzot wrote:
Zergs have been very strong recently.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already. Ban that balance whiner already! . . . I guess people whining about PvZ have gotten a strong backup with this. It has gotten to a point where many pros Zerg players agreed that something has to be done with the infestor. But it should not just be a straight nerf, other Zerg units should get a buff to compensate. But buffing lings, banes, roaches,muta might overpowered Zerg early game. Buff t3 might mean that per hive timing window becomes too large. The only 'decent' candidate is hydras. But not sure what can be done... I don't think very many zergs (even below pro-level) want fungal to stay the way is now. You have to be an infested avilo for that.
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Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl.
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On November 06 2012 00:53 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:50 Godwrath wrote:On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain. Depends what you consider post-hive. Rain PvZ more often than not involves 3 base timing when zerg is about to hit hive... which is Creator's PvZ. And he didn't get enough soul for wonwonwon. Rain does defeat Zerg pre and post Hive though, and the question was "name one Protoss who can". Also, Protoss are generally going all-in vs. pre-Hive gameplay and then being crippled tech-wise when they fail to break their opponent. I'd like to see Fungal toned down too and some other Tier 2 from Zerg toned-up. The whole problem is the frustrating gameplay for both sides which leads them to make these choices (timings vs. t3 rush).
The thing is that isn't even true. Watch his recent PvZ. He DOES NOT win consistently after post-hive. That was the question. And he doesn't, he wins with a 3 base timing push before Hive, not in lategame. We had seen some games where Mothership get a good vortex, and what not, but people was speaking about consistently winning, not if it's possible
I am not whining about balance, i couldn't careless about it and less if it's a biased programmer speaking about it on a interview withouth giving deep though about it, but your argument is wrong.
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On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl.
How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he won them all and only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell off a bit since OSL"?
Comments like this make my head explode.
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On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode.
You're only as good as your last series in sc2 to some people.
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On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode.
Didn't you know ? He is TL-officially on a slump.
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On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode.
so true, rain's pvz is still the best imho
he went thorugh open bracket at mlg the whole day before facing leenock, he was pretty exhausted i bet
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On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he won them all and only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode.
Well, he reached the semifinals in the GSL, then won WCS Asia and the OSL. And then he didn't even make top 4 at his first second overseas tournament, only reaching 6th place.
Just you wait this guy will be in Code D by the end of next year
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On November 06 2012 01:11 wozzot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he won them all and only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode. Well, he reached the quarterfinals in the GSL, then won WCS Asia and the OSL. And then he didn't even make top 4 at his first overseas tournament, only reaching 6th place. Just you wait this guy will be in Code D by the end of next year
Didn't he get to ro4 in gsl?
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On November 06 2012 01:11 wozzot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he won them all and only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode. Well, he reached the semifinals in the GSL, then won WCS Asia and the OSL. And then he didn't even make top 4 at his first second overseas tournament, only reaching 6th place. Just you wait this guy will be in Code D by the end of next year
Yeah, but what games has he won TODAY?
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On November 06 2012 01:06 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:05 sitromit wrote:On November 06 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote:
Yeah it seems to me that Parting has had the most success with PvZ lately with his wonwonwon.
Rain has fell a bit since his Osl. How did Rain fall? The only PvZ he's played since OSL was this weekend at MLG and he only lost to Leenock 2-4, who was playing amazing all weekend and has had a phenomenal PvZ record lately. He loses one series in months against Z, and now "fell of a bit since OSL"? Comments like this make my head explode. You're only as good as your last series in sc2 to some people. poor bomber
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Life and Creator seem very close...
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On November 05 2012 23:56 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:44 Hryul wrote:On November 05 2012 22:34 wozzot wrote:
Zergs have been very strong recently.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already. Ban that balance whiner already! . . . I guess people whining about PvZ have gotten a strong backup with this. Agreed, enjoy your ban! + Show Spoiler +Nah, I'm being an idiot! Thanks a lot for the interview wozzot!
Though, I have to agree, I find that Creator whines a bit too hard >< Can he really say that he feels that he's at the same level than DRG and lost because of imbalance? He doesn't say it explicitely, but that's what implied... And that's pretty arrogant.
Greater didn't lose to DRG because of imbalance, and he didn't say that.
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woooo pig got a shout out! :D
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At least better than running through Prime stream naked
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On November 06 2012 00:53 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:50 Godwrath wrote:On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain. Depends what you consider post-hive. Rain PvZ more often than not involves 3 base timing when zerg is about to hit hive... which is Creator's PvZ. And he didn't get enough soul for wonwonwon. Rain does defeat Zerg pre and post Hive though, and the question was "name one Protoss who can". Also, Protoss are generally going all-in vs. pre-Hive gameplay and then being crippled tech-wise when they fail to break their opponent. I'd like to see Fungal toned down too and some other Tier 2 from Zerg toned-up. The whole problem is the frustrating gameplay for both sides which leads them to make these choices (timings vs. t3 rush).
There are still some games where protoss goes into the lategame in a really strong position by constantly denying zergs fourth over and over and taking a fourth and fifth themselves. Most of those games end with zerg killing the entire protoss without losing a single unit, then proceeding to roll over the protoss base. That is why Hero has been doing so poorly lately, he invests into the lategame while harassing everywhere. At the end of the day, if zerg has a BL/infestor army, then you pretty much don't win as protoss. Basetrading doesn't work since at some point you have to fight their army if they bring a few spines/spores with their army.
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DRG so well done.
I lob you.
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I don't get what people read into that single phrase of the creator interview. He was at no point reffering to his games today with that. He didn't say he is on one level with DRG, he didn't blame imbalance for his loses. He said his oppinion about the general balance in a matchup. It's pretty natural that every pro conciders his race/fraction to be weak. Remember MVP stating in an interview in the first half of 2011 that terran is the weakest race? Where was the shitstorm back then?
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EPT
