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Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor.
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oh look balance whine from the wcs korea winner, where 7 out of the top 8 where protoss
though its cool to see interviews without the standard answers, way more fun
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On November 06 2012 00:09 Tsubbi wrote:
oh look balance whine from the wcs korea winner, where 7 out of the top 8 where protoss
though its cool to see interviews without the standard answers, way more fun
GM KR has more protoss than zegs/terrans
I think people cry too much because infestors/BLs are the only solid way that zergs can win the games, since their other units are very shitty supply wise. The problem is that they dont see ZvP is very close to 50%, its just that zergs always win with hive tech, while protoss can win with 2base all in, 3 base timings (before hive) and good double vortex
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On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor.
Rain uses Creator's 3base Immortal/Stalker push nearly every game. Please don't belittle Creator, who is easily top 5 Protoss worldwide.
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On November 06 2012 00:18 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:09 Tsubbi wrote:
oh look balance whine from the wcs korea winner, where 7 out of the top 8 where protoss
though its cool to see interviews without the standard answers, way more fun GM KR has more protoss than zegs/terrans I think people cry too much because infestors/BLs are the only solid way that zergs can win the games, since their other units are very shitty supply wise. The problem is that they dont see ZvP is very close to 50%, its just that zergs always win with hive tech, while protoss can win with 2base all in, 3 base timings (before hive) and good double vortex
True, and i bet most Zergs will admit that Infestor/BL is boring as hell to watch. Nevertheless, just fixing Infestors won't do any good. They'd most probably need to fix something else in favor of Zerg.
While the balance is still pretty good, i think Creator will look good for most people with his statement because of how boring to watch the Zerg style of BL/Infestor is and it's sort of annoying that it's also used vs Terran.
Either way, thanks for the interviews Wozzot! DRG is really solid these days, too bad though that he did not win OSL. 
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Creator practicing frequently with life O_o so sick, surprising he lost to DRG if that is the case. Also I bet Life's ZvP will also improve.
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On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor.
To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased).
I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10.
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Ah cool to see Pig get a shoutout!
Interesting to see DRG not doing foreign tournaments. I wonder if its going to work out for him. I can imagine that the constant travel definitely stressed him out.
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On November 06 2012 00:26 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. Rain uses Creator's 3base Immortal/Stalker push nearly every game. Please don't belittle Creator, who is easily top 5 Protoss worldwide.
I love me some Creator but him balance whining is a bit odd considering he's so inconsistent in that match up. If things are so bad for PvZ then why does Creator not use the build he invented, like Rain does, to demolish Zerg before they get to Hive. Creator is certainly world class but he'd be better served working on his consistency vs. Zerg than whining about one unit (which rarely even beats him). That is all I'm saying, not belittling his play just can't believe he'd blame a race when he threw away those two games with poor mechanics.
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I have no sympathy for Protoss balance whines. Look at GSTL, how many all kills did Protoss get this season? If a race isn't doing well, how can they stand against players from all races trying to snipe them on favorable maps again and again?
Protoss won WCS and OSL just last month, and we're to believe that if both players are of equal skill, Protoss should loose 90% of the time? Wow, we must have some really skilled Protoss players out there, who are way way better than all the Zergs they're playing against...
Since he just recently won against him in TSL 4-2, I wonder, does Creator think he's two times better a player than Life?
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On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10.
I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine.
Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up.
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screw those who always can't wait to jump out and shout "balance whine!!" when ppl started to complain. Its a fact, even the some of the pros dare to come out and say it. its a fact that needs ppl to shout it out so that blizzard notices it
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On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up.
I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one.
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On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one.
Rain.
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On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain.
Rain has best PvZ, but he usually kills zerg before broodlords
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People perform a lot of all-ins against Creator, so I tried doing some early-game attacks of my own
Was this the other way around?
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On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain.
Rain got brutally crushed by Hyvaa in MvP and then by Leenock at MLG. In the OSL, the only game Rain lost was to DRG's Infestor/BL (i.e. post-Hive) army. Not exactly the best example.
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On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one.
Rain. Just in case you have not followed every major tournament for the last two months (I have for one) the majority of Protoss keep on doing the same 2 base and 3 base timings which are borderline all-in (meaning they are not preparing for tier 3 gameplay at all). I stand by my opinion that Terran and Protoss can in fact hold even with Zerg if they will actually prepare for the end game equally.
One of the most disgusting things right now is that when Zerg with good pre-Hive gameplay use this to get a huge advantage over T or P and then finish things off with Infestor/BL (you kind of have to sometimes) its ONLY the Infestor which is discussed and not the insane mechanics and choices made by Leenock/Life/DRG.
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On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain.
So he actually beats the BL-infestor army with a brilliant engagement?
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On November 06 2012 00:44 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:43 Shiori wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:30 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 Maloreon wrote:
Nice interviews. DRG came out and stated exactly what I was thinking about his problems lately (that he was trying to push for Hive tech only like other zergs). If he can maintain this aggressive style like Life/Leenock and choose good times to transition into Hive (once he's gotten an advantage or held his own well) then he should be able to dominate right up there with Life/Leenock.
Creator's interview was pretty good but spoiled by the fact that he blames imbalance while also not being exactly the most innovative or precise player in ZvP. I mean look at his games vs. DRG he made terrible mistakes and then blames Fungal which was a non-factor. (loses to a zero-infestor army in game 2, in game 1 he lost to playing terribly and I think a grand total of 1 fungal hit his army and was not in any way the deciding factor). Also, he should look up Rain's games if he wants to continue to whine about how you can't beat Zerg.
The key to fixing Infestors, imo, is to make a new upgrade for Roach or Hydra that makes them really strong mid-late game but cannot be accessed quickly enough to be abuseable. I think if they give Roaches something cool like "burrow speed = normal speed" upgrade, range increase for Roach or Hydra, something.... the result would be that Zerg could hold until Hive tech and play a more even late game vs. Terran/Protoss rather than the current state which is them dying to timings left and right and then being a bit too strong when they do finally reach BL/Infestor. To be fair to Creator, he didn't blame his loses to DRG to imbalance. He was just commenting on the state of PvZ from his point of view. These pros play a lot of games (not just the ones we see broadcast) so they have a pretty good perspective(although it is certainly biased). I think it one of the Mvp/Nestea interviews in 2011 when they were the top 2 players in the world, Nestea mentioned that if the Terran doesn't make a mistake on Daybreak, a Zerg can't beat the Terran (pre ghost nerf). I think this is what Creator is referring to, if the Protoss and Zerg both play well (with minimal mistakes), the Zerg ends up winning 8/10. I'm all for some adjustments to lots of spells and Fungal is certainly on the list, same as I was for the EMP nerf (and thought Snipe nerf was a good choice). The problem is these players who are not consistent in a match-up complaining about it... which will of course cause every single non-Zerg in the world to jump on the immediate nerf-Infestor bandwagon (when just a nerf to Infestor is not the answer, it needs to be accompanied by changes to a variety of units). Meanwhile other Protoss have no problem beating Zerg consistently pre and post Hive. Creator has some of the best PvT in the world - if he'd apply the same approach (outplaying opponent, long term gameplans) to his PvZ matchup and stop throwing games he'd do fine. Changes definitely need to happen for the health of the game, but Zerg is in fact not stronger than the other races: gameplay and stats back this up. I can't think of a single Protoss player that consistently wins post-Hive. Not a single one. Rain.
Depends what you consider post-hive. Rain PvZ more often than not involves 3 base timing when zerg is about to hit hive... which is Creator's PvZ. And he didn't get enough soul for wonwonwon.
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EPT
