Look im trying to go to bed here, its 3am and every time I click to read the next page, another page of comments have already been posted. Whether or whether not Karmy is here to defend MoW is completely irrelevant. So is how much the house actually should cost to stay in... What should be discussed is the poor way this has been handled and why this disagreement arose in the first place. If you think 600euros is overpriced then dont live there, if you think karmy is biased then dont listen to his arguments. I want this cleared out because I dont want too loose a gaming house in Europe. I want it to be the best it can be. Right now, this does not show professionalism from either side. Dont side track on conspiracies please.
On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote: The real main problems are 1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed. 2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people. 3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple.
Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation.
I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation?
edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right.
On September 13 2012 09:07 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: [quote]
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares....
Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better.
Lets wait for Karmy to counterattack this, see what he has to say .
Lets wait you gonna get banned for attack at Karmy , who got much more information abouth this House that 99% people at this thread.
I said that because everytime someone posted something about asking for an explanation, he went and commented and maybe he is really giving his opinion, but seems to not be too objetive and not totally balanced with both sides.
Then every MoW resident lie ? Past and presnt residents?? Everyone talks only good things abouth MoW house , only person that shit talks is fuzer.. how you explain this...? because you must be some kind of genius...
On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote: The real main problems are 1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed. 2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people. 3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple.
Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation.
Absolutely, I mean think if they would just had said:
"We fucked up, we gave him the contract too late, we did not pay him back fast enough, and for now on we will try to be more transparent with what we demand so people more easily will be able to tell/ get second opinions from people regarding the contract."
IF they said something like above this whole mess would prolly had been over by now or not as blown out of proportions as it is now.
On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote: The real main problems are 1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed. 2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people. 3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple.
Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation.
I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation?
edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right.
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
Any trained cook/chef knows how to prepare food for a number of people, including techniques such as making double and freezing half of basics such as pasta sauces, pastry, etc.
It's easy to prepare meals in this way.
This. I've worked in a kitchen and catering events for years and years and knowing how many people you are catering for makes a job retardedly easy. Add to that you know their dietary requirements and "fish and salads" are usually the go to because they are so easy to portion and prepare/keep. Given that they are paying someone to chef he is obviously awful since anyone who has been taught to chef can cook for 12+ people with no problems
Edit: I am not saying anyone is lying and there are not enough (read any) facts to sway me to either side. MoW needs to sort out their PR and business side, Fuzer is clearly not showing everything that has gone on. We need extended screen caps of conversations from him becase the one in the OP is a typed document that people are just accepting as fact even though his reason for no screenshot was to protect the identity of the boss even though that information is readily available with a google search, clearly some things are being hidden there as well. Everyone else is just kicking off a huge fuss because we haven't had anything interesting for a while since everyone found out the warhound was so OP.
So much stupid stuff said in this post. Seriously, sometimes i just think Starcraft gets too boring for some people if there isn't something to complain about.
Many players said that their experience in the house was great, and all you people do is complain about the problems this one guy had.
On September 13 2012 09:47 wozzot wrote: So all of this drama is going on over less than $600? Because MoW wouldn't give the guy his rent money back after he refused to agree to the terms of a contract that wasn't even shown to him until after he arrived in the gaming house?
what
It's over 600 EUROS.If you've been living in a cave for the last, idk, 20 years (?) you might not know this, but the Euro is worth about 1.5x the amount of the US dollar.
Holy... the difference between 600 and 900 is that big for you that you'd make a ridiculous ad hominem attack? I feel for your financial situation bro
His point was that the fact such a huge deal is made over not paying him back that approximate 900 dollars is a bit ridiculous.
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
Only one important question: Does it stop a player from taking 5 teammates and coaching them in a house, that the team/sponsors pay for?
On September 13 2012 09:38 Snute wrote: It's funny. I remember my only words to Fuzer during my stay at the whole Battle at Ministry of Win tournament were these: "You need to take this seriously, you know." after 3-1. Somewhere inside I was cheering for him.
Now this.
Let's just say there's a reason some people get caught up into trouble and some people don't.
Chill is a wise man, he said it like this: "Guess what? If you don't like it, then don't live there. This is a privately-run house."
The thing is... You can complain a lot. The house is not perfect and now this. But you cannot take away the fact that they had the balls to try set up a gaming house in Europe, and they are still going at it, gathering some of Europe's finest players. I love that place. Not necessarily because it's a good house with all its fancy features, but because it's a place where people gather with the same dreams, hopes and goals - to improve. And not many people in Europe have the balls to do such a thing. The people make the place unique. People that leave everything behind for one simple purpose - self-improvement. Do you even know what it's like? This is currently the ONLY place in Europe that allows SC2-players to gather like this.
People were talking shit about how an European house would not help any of the players even before I got there! How it wouldn't make a difference. I can tell you, it did make a difference for me. At the very least I'm glad I didn't have to share house with skeptic people like those not even giving an European pro-house a chance to begin with. Those of you who don't believe in a combined fighting spirit are the ones who are contributing to us getting our asses kicked every time we meet a Korean. They are a bit closer to each other than we are, you know? They don't rest on their laurels after a loss. They are not the ones who say "Give up, it's impossible. Why even try."
Not taking sides here, but to be constructive regarding the gaming house situation in Europe ... Maybe some of you guys should put together a gaming house and show how us all how it's done? We are all united through the Internet after all. Let us create something beautiful. Set up your own house, I'll be happy to visit you. Or maybe you can apply for a job at a gaming house? Do something.
I lived in the Ministry of Win for months. I am that quiet kid in the back of the class, the 'good guy above all this shit'. What I have to say? I paid for the months, got what I wanted, told the managers whenever something was wrong, told them whatever was unacceptable, helped improve shit. If I needed something, I told them and they would fix it, although being short on manpower they fixed it as fast as they could. If I was to go back there now, I'd have zero troubles. Their setup is really good now. The Battle tournament was amazing. The current players are awesome. I would tell them if I was not happy with food. I would tell them to fix their stuff if something was wrong.
If there was any issue I'd just tell them straight up.
They never bitched about me not streaming as much. In the beginning there were some net issues that are fixed now. I was travelling a lot too. They were understanding. I'm sure if someone were smurfing/preparing for something truly important they would be understanding of that too. This is something you as a player can ASK about before you go there, if you so desire. If you don't like the response then negotiate more or don't go.
I went into this house with high ideals. Ideals I still hold. And I got what I came for. Good months of hard practice. Even though I'm still shit compared to the powerhouses you look up to, the people I look up to - stepha, nerchio, scarlett, etc - I've improved. I improved lots, made friends and experienced a new country, new impressions. I got what I wanted and I'm happy with the time I spent. I had the balls to go there and have no regrets.
If you don't want bad things to happen in your life then stop getting yourself into crappy situations, it's that simple. Why do you allow yourself to get into such spots in the first place? Check stuff out BEFORE you get on those planes and come prepared. Cooperate and don't be lazy when issues arise. If it takes less than five minutes to do just )$(!)#( do it !!
I'm not taking sides. I'm just here to be constructive, get some of my own experience out there while I work on my badass rocket ride to Korea.
I'll check this trainwreck again in the morning, this is... I don't even know what this is.
Thank you to the pros that posted here, the people with experience, the people who know... stuff.
I'd still go, I'd still spend the money, I'd stream constantly.
I don't understand why there's such ridiculous hate here for something that could be so good for the scene as a whole with such little evidence out there about it.
On September 13 2012 09:15 Noispaxen wrote: [quote]
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares....
Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better.
Lets wait for Karmy to counterattack this, see what he has to say .
Lets wait you gonna get banned for attack at Karmy , who got much more information abouth this House that 99% people at this thread.
I said that because everytime someone posted something about asking for an explanation, he went and commented and maybe he is really giving his opinion, but seems to not be too objetive and not totally balanced with both sides.
Then every MoW resident lie ? Past and presnt residents?? Everyone talks only good things abouth MoW house , only person that shit talks is fuzer.. how you explain this...? because you must be some kind of genius...
passidents and presidents!
The true drama in this thread is how low TL has actually fallen... now everyone is on Kamy's throat because he betrayed the mob :D
You should have known it is the will of the people that MoW gets punished for this. and don't you dare speak against their judgement... oO
On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote: The real main problems are 1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed. 2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people. 3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple.
Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation.
Absolutely, I mean think if they would just had said:
"We fucked up, we gave him the contract too late, we did not pay him back fast enough, and for now on we will try to be more transparent with what we demand so people more easily will be able to tell/ get second opinions from people regarding the contract."
IF they said something like above this whole mess would prolly had been over by now or not as blown out of proportions as it is now.
Indeed. It's retarded that they even went so far to start arguing with the player. The organisation is always the one that's gonna lose. Goes to show how retarded the people behind this thing actually are.
So I've tried to read through everything here, and I don't actually see that much wrong with how MoW is being operated.
A number of people have come here who used to live in the house like Snute and said that they really liked the house and didn't have issues. No one who has lived in the house besides Fuzer has said much bad about the house.
NDAs are pretty common afaik. I'm in college still, but every software engineering internship I've had, I've had to sign an NDA, often before I even got the job, before the in-person interview. The streaming clauses seem pretty reasonable, and players could negotiate them. The esfi article says that they verified that MoW offered a refund to Fuzer for the second month.
The 10 year thing is iffy but honestly not that big of a deal, and it probably wouldn't hold up in a lot of courts anyways ( I'm guessing this based on what other people have said, I have no previous knowledge). It's not that likely any of the players are going to start their own gaming house anyways.
Can anyone dispute this? Maybe I missed something, but it's looking to me like Fuzer and MoW didn't get a long and Fuzer is trying to get back at them.
EPT
