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On September 13 2012 10:07 Noobity wrote:
I'll check this trainwreck again in the morning, this is... I don't even know what this is.
Thank you to the pros that posted here, the people with experience, the people who know... stuff.
I'd still go, I'd still spend the money, I'd stream constantly.
I don't understand why there's such ridiculous hate here for something that could be so good for the scene as a whole with such little evidence out there about it.
I think one of the problems is that a lot of posters here only read the op...
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So are contracts personalized or are they all the same? I'd imagine more popular players have much, much better deals.
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Poll: Do You think the polish boss = Rush ?YES (10) 71% NO (4) 29% 14 total votes Your vote: Do You think the polish boss = Rush ? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
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It would be comparable to renting off a landlord, and him telling you to sign this contract saying you can't buy your own property and rent it out until 10 years have passed.
Also, I want to hear more from destiny about a 10 year non-competitor clause is reasonable in the business world; because its hilarious.
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Edit: @above: no. That's way more serious than what it's like. It's still not a good policy especially in eSports
On September 13 2012 10:05 lolboi222 wrote:
Disgrace to business& esports. Email the sponsors.
No. I assume sarcasm, but that's dangerous. MoW is in no evil, only mistaken. Fuzer is a victim of this and naivete. So, both sides are fine. DO NOT EMAIL THE SPONSORS
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Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary.
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On September 13 2012 10:11 Jager wrote:
It would be comparable to renting off a landlord, and him telling you to sign this contract saying you can't buy your own property and rent it out until 10 years have passed.
Sorry, what?
It's comparable to working for a company, and then leaving that company and them saying that you can't create an extremely similar company using the techniques that they taught you.
How in the holy fuck did you get your analogy?
EDIT: Ok, I see where you got the analogy now, still a dumb statement to make. This isn't him renting a room, it's him paying for a service. Part of that service includes the room and board.
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On September 13 2012 10:10 Gentso wrote:
So are contracts personalized or are they all the same? I'd imagine more popular players have much, much better deals.
At the time of my stay, They were all the same, but I know that now some are different.
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On September 13 2012 10:04 Leijona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:02 Pimpmuckl wrote:On September 13 2012 10:00 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote:
The real main problems are
1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed.
2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people.
3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple. Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation. I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation? edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right. Yea well its the top comment on reddit atm. The guy who runs the house has a scammer's image in Poland. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zs2bh/drama_in_mow_house/c678kmj
lol
thegunrun 291pistettä 4tuntia sitten
he still owes me 1k usd
edit: shiiiit my bad. gunrun was responding to a different post and meant gus.
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On September 13 2012 10:09 Ender2701 wrote:
So I've tried to read through everything here, and I don't actually see that much wrong with how MoW is being operated.
A number of people have come here who used to live in the house like Snute and said that they really liked the house and didn't have issues. No one who has lived in the house besides Fuzer has said much bad about the house.
NDAs are pretty common afaik. I'm in college still, but every software engineering internship I've had, I've had to sign an NDA, often before I even got the job, before the in-person interview. The streaming clauses seem pretty reasonable, and players could negotiate them. The esfi article says that they verified that MoW offered a refund to Fuzer for the second month.
The 10 year thing is iffy but honestly not that big of a deal, and it probably wouldn't hold up in a lot of courts anyways ( I'm guessing this based on what other people have said, I have no previous knowledge). It's not that likely any of the players are going to start their own gaming house anyways.
Can anyone dispute this? Maybe I missed something, but it's looking to me like Fuzer and MoW didn't get a long and Fuzer is trying to get back at them.
Well they only offered the money back after fuzer posted on facebook that he will make the "whole" thing public. But thats basicly the only real thing happening here.. everything else in this thread is just utter bullshit.
Edit: Oh and the contract/lawyer thing obv.
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On September 13 2012 09:53 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2012 09:43 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:37 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:19 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:15 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:07 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:03 Noispaxen wrote:On September 13 2012 09:01 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 08:55 Irave wrote:
[quote]
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW. Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny Did you even read what he wrote? Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water. 5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much. You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get. Lol, the whole point is to get better. 1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way. 2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming. 3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK? You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc. 2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not). 3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it. LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming. #3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer. Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards. I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares.... Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better.
Because it's part of the damn contract?
Honestly...
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On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote:
Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary.
They did let him, But he didn't get the proper verification from his lawyer.
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On September 13 2012 10:14 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:04 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 10:02 Pimpmuckl wrote:On September 13 2012 10:00 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote:
The real main problems are
1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed.
2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people.
3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple. Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation. I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation? edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right. Yea well its the top comment on reddit atm. The guy who runs the house has a scammer's image in Poland. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zs2bh/drama_in_mow_house/c678kmj lol
LOL, what the hell, he even owns the gunrun, 1k what hahaha.
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On September 13 2012 10:14 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:04 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 10:02 Pimpmuckl wrote:On September 13 2012 10:00 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote:
The real main problems are
1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed.
2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people.
3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple. Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation. I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation? edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right. Yea well its the top comment on reddit atm. The guy who runs the house has a scammer's image in Poland. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zs2bh/drama_in_mow_house/c678kmj lol
He's not the one who owe gunrun money. Anyway it was already said.
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On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote:
Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary.
They did let him consult his lawyer and he was consulting him. He might have not seen the contract, but that's because MoW requested his license(which is completely normal), and Fuzer didn't provide it.
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Karmy are you allowed to answer, if the NDA stops a Pro from taking 5 teammates and coaching them in a house paid by the Team/sponsors?
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On September 13 2012 10:15 LgNkarmy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote:
Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary. They did let him, But he didn't get the proper verification from his lawyer.
So you don't think the deadline was too harsh? Do you know what kind of verification they needed and how much time he had to get it and if it was reasonable to get it in that time?
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Crazy read... now I have 79 pages to catch up. Hope everything works(ed) out for ya!
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On September 13 2012 10:13 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:11 Jager wrote:
It would be comparable to renting off a landlord, and him telling you to sign this contract saying you can't buy your own property and rent it out until 10 years have passed. Sorry, what? It's comparable to working for a company, and then leaving that company and them saying that you can't create an extremely similar company using the techniques that they taught you. How in the holy fuck did you get your analogy?
What kind of skills do they learn living in a gaming house? Maybe that should sign a contract saying they can't play sc2 after they leave, because they learnt a lot living in the house?
From the sounds of it MoW can't run a business for shit anyway, would be interesting to see what top secret practices they do that requires an NDA (Nothing)
But for you, I will change my analogy.
I go and live in a hostel for 6 months, and the hostel owner tells me in order to live there I have to sign a contract that states I cant open my own hostel for 10 years after leaving.
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On September 13 2012 10:15 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:14 Jarree wrote:On September 13 2012 10:04 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 10:02 Pimpmuckl wrote:On September 13 2012 10:00 Leijona wrote:On September 13 2012 09:57 Integra wrote:
The real main problems are
1) why did they send him over and take his money before the contract was signed.
2) why did they refuse to return his money when he wanted to go back, they didn't offer a return until he threatened to tell people.
3) why did they not allow a another person to view the contract.
If these three things would had been fixed/never happened this drama wouldn't exist today, plain and simple. Exactly. Add in the bad "statements" they're giving and how unprofessionally they've dealt with this stuff. Of course, the "boss" guy's scam-tournament where he basically tried to steal money off teams and you get quite a shady organisation. I didn't get the last part, any link to an explanation? edit: and ban this pallad guy from this thread already, talking about how the "TL community" goes down the drain and attacking everyone left and right. Yea well its the top comment on reddit atm. The guy who runs the house has a scammer's image in Poland. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/zs2bh/drama_in_mow_house/c678kmj lol thegunrun 291pistettä 4tuntia sitten
he still owes me 1k usd
LOL, what the hell, he even owns the gunrun, 1k what hahaha.
Are you guys doin that on purpose? ... It's about someone else... read again...
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EPT
